★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

BoD wrote:I'll be responding to some of this later, but this:

Yet after this, Dramath is able to contend with Vaylin and Arcann alongside the Outlander and attack the spirit of Tenebrae, both dominating him momentarily and wounding him:



Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

Lord Dramath is however very much the canonical inferior of Marka Ragnos as he is defeated during Ragnos' reign:

Is a huge hot take. First, the idea that Dramath "competed" with Arcann and Vaylin is sceptical at best. The Outlander was shown to be capable of fighting both at the same time without Dramath, indicating that he was carrying Dramath throughout the fight. While Dramath can of course be capable of competing with them, there is zero evidence for this since the Outlander was able of fighting both simultaneously. My playthrough for example had the Outlander free Dramath but fight both, meaning Dramath most likely only played a supporting role within the fight to back up the Outlander, who would be the primary target for both.

You realise it's possible that the Outlander had a harder fight, but still won, whereas he had an easier time with Dramath's aid. You're essentially arguing the Outlander summoned useless aid for no reason. Obviously there's no point if he's fodder for either.

Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

Yes, it probably does have context. You know what else has context? That showing above:

- Valkorion starts by saying "lol you're not worth my time. Kids, kill them."
- Valkorion stands idly by as Dramath rants, not even trying to defend himself.
- Dramath has had centuries if not over a millennia to plan this attack. He's interacted with Vitiate/Valkorion countless times over the millennia, giving him ample time to figure out some of his weaknesses.
- Dramath, despite using a kamikaze attack that utterly obliterates himself, is only able to knock Valkorion to the ground for about 8 seconds before Valkorion gets back up, laughing. 
- Valkorion notes that all Dramath did was "pierce (his) armour at the cost of his life", something that Valkorion did not expect but finds more amusing than anything. 

So to reiterate:

A bragging Valkorion who clearly doesn't consider Dramath a threat is knocked over for around 8 seconds by a being who's had over a millennia to plan this suicide attack to deliver the most damage to Valkorion as possible, an attack he believed could kill Valkorion. The attack knocked Valkorion over and hurt him, killing Dramath in the process, but did nothing more. Valkorion was then laughing about it as he stood back up and then carried on like nothing happened.

Nice head-canon there. Tenebrae is fully capable of defending himself and is literally watching them. Dramath attempts what I imagine is a binding attempt to draw Tenebrae out with him. Tenebrae is shown being dominated by this and is lying on the stairs wounded before he recovers. He laughs because Dramath is dead from the attempt and now the Outlander has no help yet you can see the red bleeding effect on his spirit as he gets up and raises his children.

Nothing here suggests Ragnos is a threat to Valkorion, nor is Dramath. If you seriously believe a being who's had this long to plan and consolidate his powers to strike at Valkorion and gave every aspect of himself to the attack (killing himself in the process) can under normal circumstances be considered a threat to Valkorion, you're deluding yourself.

You've invented this supposed plan of Dramath's. He has no idea nor reason to believe he'll fight his son. Dramath's whole plan is to tell someone that the holocron he is trapped in is Tenebrae's weakness. That's it. That's all he has. He explains this in chapter 7. He has no intention of fighting Tenebrae as he's quite busy asking to be released from the holocron in exchange for that knowledge and is pissed when you don't comply.

Dramath is canonically inferior to Ragnos and the next two most powerful after Ragnos both think Ragnos can one-shot them.

You've dismissed all this on literally no basis besides heavily underhanded interpretations of the text.

NotAA3 wrote:Child Tenebrae's victory over Dramath doesn't have any context. I find the idea that all the sources just left out some crucial reason why Vitiate won to be pretty amusing, to say the least. That's very misleading to the reader, especially when we have descriptions pretty blatantly highlighting how Tenebrae was "the stronger" of the two - who makes a statement like that if there was context which allowed Vitiate to compete? Did all the authors writing this event just conveniently forget to give us the relevant information regarding Vitiate's victory? Or is it more likely that Vitiate was just intended to be stronger - no strings attached?

You mean the description of events from the limited perspectives of Darth Nyriss and a group of historians who live after False Emperor Malgus is yeeted? You feel free to appeal to those. I'll stick with the sole OOU source on the matter.

BoD wrote:As for the Darth Andru scaling, it's also worth noting that Andru was using esoteric abilities to kill Nox, hence the glowing eyes: 



Nox was completely unable to defend against it, with Kallig noting she had walked in "unprepared" and ghosts couldn't be fought without rituals or esoteric abilities:



When Nox learned how to fight them, none of the Sith were capable of resisting her, including Andru and Ergast (who both resisted where their power was strongest) right afterwards:

https://youtu.be/pEDSSCVL5LU?t=655

So no, Andru is not > BoAct 2 Nox at any point. He was relying on esoteric abilities and his immunity to Nox's physical attacks to win. The moment that was eliminated, he was overwhelmed and forcibly absorbed by her despite both Ergast (the creator of the ritual) and Andru (who at least knew of it) resisting as hard as they could. 

Kallig's superiority to Andru is meaningless, as Nox is also demonstrably superior to him.

I've also pointed this out in another thread that AP is well aware of, but Hord considered Aloysius a threat around the time of Yn and Chabosh or after it:



So while Hord was absorbing those spirits and growing stronger and stronger, he viewed Kallig as a threat and even relied on an ambush to kill him, rather than direct combat. 

At best, you have the scaling Tulak Hord ~/> Aloysius Kallig > Andru. BoAct 2 Nox was already clearly > Andru, and that was before her massive growth through consuming 4 (5, depending on your DS choices) ghosts and adding them to her own power. That's also not including her growth between BoAct 2 and SoR.

Also, it's highly likely Hord had Kallig killed after Yn and Chabosh, since he began slaying his rivals as he won more battles (of which Yn and Chabosh were some of the greatest and thus the most likely to make others view him as a threat within the Sith Order): 

Lord of Hate, Master of the Gathering Darkness and Dark Lord of the Sith. These are but a few of the titles worn by the great Tulak Hord. His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful.

This is easily the most entertaining post so far. So you're claiming that the power of these spirits, which literally multiply her power, isn't actually anything in comparison? And your basis for this is glowing eyes, despite the fact that's what spirits do regardless of attack. Yeah, no. Kallig is saying that Nox can't take those Sith without said rituals at all. They are literally stronger than her in general.

We see that the spirits of Ambria, Korriban, Yavin and other places were dealt with by Revan, the Exile, Thon, Arca Jeth, Barsen'thor, the Hero and the Wrath. Literally just seven examples off of the top of my head. None of them had some special rituals to defeat spirits. They just destroyed them through sheer power. You're only liable to be effected in the first place if you're weaker than them.

Stop with this enormous cop-out.

And then you come up with the ridiculous point that Force-walking, an ability that Kallig says Nox literally has a natural affinity or 'pull' with against spirits, is somehow evidence Nox is more powerful. Maybe we're forgetting something here but it's confirmed later on that those spirits Nox bound are WAY too much power for Nox, are able to mentally fuck her up at will and Nox is literally dying and being torn apart physically by them. Nox has to go and be physically rebuilt by the Mother Machine and then go through weird psychedelic Voss mental cleansing to take mental control back.

I'm not sure exactly why you think Kallig being around after Hord has absorbed those Jedi matters. First of all, Hord isn't afraid of engaging Kallig in combat, lol, nothing you've shown has said anything of the sort. He always has his rivals assassinated. His supremacy during his reign is still canonical. Kallig's only his main rival in the first place because of the successes of his military campaigns and his ambition. Nowhere is his power the primary factor and nowhere is it stated Kallig rivalled him in power after.

Kallig didn't devour the spirits of a 1,000 Jedi in a ritual that literally just absorbs power rather than binding a spirit as Nox and Ergast learnt. Hord did. He's obviously the most powerful of his reign by far.

@LadyKulvax

You mean the description of events from the limited perspectives of Darth Nyriss and a group of historians who live after False Emperor Malgus is yeeted?

TOR Enyclopedia is IU omniscient, not that it matters anyway. While Nyriss is obviously limited in her knowledge, we do know that she's not exactly a slouch in terms of knowledge either. She knows about a lot of Vitiate's history, so I think it's a bit odd to discredit her on a whim based on her being IU limited. If there was apparently heavy context involved you would expect Nyriss acknowledge it (given she does know a great deal about Vitiate), and/or if there was not sufficient evidence we would expect her not make such a definitive declaration that Vitiate proved himself "the stronger" rather than just stating that they had a fight and Vitiate won, but she doesn't know the details. Feel free to ignore her on the grounds she's IU limited, but I see no reason to not put any stock into Nyriss's tale when the rest of her story is true.

Then there's the obvious fact that the OOU reason for why the passage exists is to provide information to the reader, and the author creates a misleading picture for those reading the novel by providing falsified details. Plus, as you've kindly pointed out, Vitiate's fight with his father is mentioned in several other sources which all had the chance to provide context, but didn't. We have no reason to doubt Nyriss's account when no other source ever provides the context you want to fabricate and pretend exists. Vitiate being better than Dramath is the clear thematic intent, and while you can pretend otherwise, anyone who's not choking on Kun's dick in their mouth will see it.

You feel free to appeal to those. I'll stick with the sole OOU source on the matter.

I don't need to. All the sources support my position - be it the IU declaration Vitiate was stronger, or the OOU/IU omniscient descriptions of the fight not providing any of the context you want to believe exists.

Regardless of everything else, why is Kun even being considered as a candidate at this point? He's buried beneath Malak and, thanks to Revan Novel into SWTOR scaling, hopelessly beneath versions of the HoT/Outlander, the KOTFE/KOTET cast, Malgus etc. If you are going to throw your vote away, might as well throw it towards someone who can at least hope to stake a claim to a top 20 list.

I swear nearly everyone who is citing George Lucas saying Vader was like Maul/Dooku to argue that they are close or whatever, are using the same line of thought that Erkan was propagating when he used to cite that quote in ancient times and everyone scoffed at his interpretation. Now they're applying the same interpretation 

Latham2000 wrote:I swear nearly everyone who is citing George Lucas saying Vader was like Maul/Dooku to argue that they are close or whatever, are using the same line of thought that Erkan was propagating when he used to cite that quote in ancient times and everyone scoffed at his interpretation. Now they're applying the same interpretation 

Erkan was ahead of his time. He was also right about the Sidious ragdolling and speedblitzing stuff.

Speaking of Erkan, he has been suspiciously quiet for the last 2 and a half months.

Hopefully he died and his corpse is being chewed by rodents

Tbh he isn't always completely wrong, and he is better than MyGod by a long shot,

At least MyGod doesn't pull out non-existent sources from the depths of his arse.

Erkan does use sources but wanks them to ridiculous levels i.e. the AEYNTK list. MyGod keeps arguing conjecture and resorts to using the outdated card when his conjecture is disproven by a source.

Latham2000 wrote:Erkan does use sources but wanks them to ridiculous levels i.e. the AEYNTK list. MyGod keeps arguing conjecture and resorts to using the outdated card when his conjecture is disproven by a source.

is this true ?

ILS wrote:Regardless of everything else, why is Kun even being considered as a candidate at this point? He's buried beneath Malak and, thanks to Revan Novel into SWTOR scaling, hopelessly beneath versions of the HoT/Outlander, the KOTFE/KOTET cast, Malgus etc. If you are going to throw your vote away, might as well throw it towards someone who can at least hope to stake a claim to a top 20 list.

Malak hasn't been over Kun for a long time now, might want to keep up to date.

The lord of hunger wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:Erkan does use sources but wanks them to ridiculous levels i.e. the AEYNTK list. MyGod keeps arguing conjecture and resorts to using the outdated card when his conjecture is disproven by a source.

is this true ?

Yes.

Given it's almost a tie between Kun and Vol and there's a bunch of last-minute vote changes, I need clarification from the following who they are voting for:

@ILS - You voted Vol, then voted Tadar who is banned, then voted Nom as presumably a joke.
@MasterCilghal - You voted Vol, then voted Tadar who is banned.

I currently have you both marked down for Vol. And if any other members want to vote, now is the time.

I vote for the living Kunt

Latham2000 wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:Erkan does use sources but wanks them to ridiculous levels i.e. the AEYNTK list. MyGod keeps arguing conjecture and resorts to using the outdated card when his conjecture is disproven by a source.

is this true ?

Yes.

how so?

I had retired my vote because I wanted to re-read this thread before decide, I’m still siding with Vol

Voting Outlander

What's the current vote tally? Last I checked, Outlander was leading.

Yeah, throw me down for Vol.

Has no one in this thread seen the Malak quote???

[hideedit]

Apparently not

DarthAnt66 wrote:Given it's almost a tie between Kun and Vol and there's a bunch of last-minute vote changes, I need clarification from the following who they are voting for:

@ILS - You voted Vol, then voted Tadar who is banned, then voted Nom as presumably a joke.
@MasterCilghal - You voted Vol, then voted Tadar who is banned.

I currently have you both marked down for Vol. And if any other members want to vote, now is the time.

You realise half of these fuckers are voting Kun as a joke, yes?

I'll stick with Vol though, yes indeed.