★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

Geistalt wrote:Considering the planet-killer the Hero of Tython killed while massively pre-prime had TK capable of collapsing the Dark Temple

and Vaylin had TK capable of destroying the Nathema sanctuary off-planet

yes.

...and? These feats aren't even close to what Luke or Unuthul have pulled off, and Abeloth is far above either, not to mention her own feats like melting a city and creating a greater concentration of dark side energy than anything Luke had seen prior.

MasterCilghal wrote:the fact that the novel says “he rooted himself” in that exact moment means he wasn’t ready for the attack.

Whether he was ready for it or not before makes no difference; he braced himself for it by the time it happened.

But you're right, it's not a low showing for Vol; after all, this is all about feats characters can pull off in battle.

That counts as an impressive display of Force barrier.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Much of the power is too vague of a designation to hold much weight. I think we could just as easily say Jaina has much of the power of Luke, there is no clear percent associated with “much.”

The context is Abeloth having had direct encounters with both Luke (including Luke with his glowing power) and Vol, noting that she had a "devastating encounter" with Vol and that as a result he has "much the power of Luke Skywalker." Seeing as she flicked Jaina away with TK effortlessly I'm not sure you could say she has "much the power of Luke".

It also could just as easily be a relative scale compared to other force users of the era.

Yes, and the relative scale she is using are those beings she has actually fought against. Out of all of them, she thinks Vol is not only closest to Luke, but has "much" of his power.

He rooted himself against Abeloth in a mental war, but I have no reference point for that as it is obviously not a generic tk feat.

You don't have a reference point for the Outlander either, the only difference is that Vol's feats are flat out superior. Even if we say Vol has 51% the power of FotJ Luke that blows everything TOR has out of the water to a hilarious degree, and this has yet to receive a worthwhile counter. And I think you and me both know that "51%" is an excessively conservative estimate.

To be clear, Vol could be above Outlander just as easily as he could be below. That uncertainty is why I think he should be banned and also why I am not voting for him. 

Seeing as The Outlander camp have done an even worse job of quantifying the Outlander's power relative to either Vol, Luke, Abeloth or anyone in the list thus far, I'm not sure why I should care?

The entire case for the TOR camp rests on the flagrant double standard of not giving a quantifiable reason for why the Outlander scales further over Malgus than Vol, or why he would be closer to Luke or Abeloth than Vol, but instead offering "well we don't know if the Outlander couldn't be on that level", and then in the next breath demanding a precisely quantified % proving that Vol is above the Outlander, and dodging dismissing anything less as "unquantifiable", as if the  word "unquantifiable" actually means anything in this context or does anything to refute the arguments put forward. Nothing you've said so far is any more quantifiable, in fact it's less so.

I would've made comments to give you shit and bust your balls demanding you justify your position of Vol > HoT with feats, but it seems everyone else has already done it for me.

Geistalt wrote:I would've made comments to give you shit and bust your balls demanding you justify your position of Vol > HoT with feats, but it seems everyone else has already done it for me.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2863p75-top-fifteen-tournament-11-vote-now#54581

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2863p75-top-fifteen-tournament-11-vote-now#54691

It's not a double standard lol. Praxis provided a case and quantified the extent to which Malgus would need an amp to beat The Outlander, and thus people are voting for The Outlander because we know Malgus requires a ridiculous amp to beat him. On the other hand, the Vol brigade can't quantify "much the power of Luke", and thus are using vague guesswork, but haven't actually proven Malgus would require a ridiculous amp (on the scale of one required to beat The Outlander) to defeat him.

It's not up to us to prove The Outlander is beyond Vol, because this isn't an Outlander vs Vol matchup. This is a ranking of most Force Users combative capability, and there's no reason for me - or anyone else - to vote for someone to be on that list who's unquantifiable.

@ILS 
It was I who upvoted that second post of yours.

NotAA3 wrote:It's not a double standard lol. Praxis provided a case and quantified the extent to which Malgus would need an amp to beat The Outlander, and thus people are voting for The Outlander because we know Malgus requires a ridiculous amp to beat him.

Agreed, we know to a pretty high degree of accuracy how far above Malgus the Outlander is.

NotAA3 wrote:On the other hand, the Vol brigade can't quantify "much the power of Luke", and thus are using vague guesswork, but haven't actually proven Malgus would require a ridiculous amp (on the scale of one required to beat The Outlander) to defeat him.

I'm not sure why you think the Outlander having a more direct link to Malgus would make it any more certain that he is further above Malgus than Vol?

If we say Deceived Malgus = X, Outlander = Y and Vol = Z.

X is the starting value. Let's summarize the scaling Praxis laid out as being Y, with Y = 10X. He has demonstrated through a comparison of feats, as in, comparing the HoT/Outlander's feats against later iterations of Malgus and intermediary growth spurts how much superior the Outlander is to Malgus. Not a precise % which is what is being asked of the Vol side, just a "vague" framework showing that the Outlander is superior to Malgus. You haven't demonstrated where "Z" is.

In order to quantify how far above Deceived Malgus Vol is, all we need to do is take Deceived Malgus' best feats and compare them to Vol's. Praxis already asked me to do this when he asked me to prove that Luke's feats take a dinosaur sized shit on Valkorion's, and seeing as I never received a response on this point, I'm assuming there's a concession there.

However, we can do even better anyway. We know that Onslaught!Malgus and Vitiate are below TPM era Sheev by virtue of supremacy accolades. Insert an even more hilarious amount of growth than Praxis laid out between TPM Sheev and DE Sheev. Now we have DE Luke being "too strong" for DE Sidious in a duel, and also being accoladed as being a greater adversary than Galen Marek, Windu or Yoda only halfway through Dark Empire. Add in endless power growth quotes and "quantifiable", demonstrated power increases between DE and FotJ for Luke. Luke then unleashes his full power on Abeloth to the point he is overloading every cell in his body with Force energy, causing him to visibly glow.

Abeloth then has a "devastating encounter" with Vol where she judges that he must have "much the power" of Luke Skywalker. In contrast, proportionally speaking, Luke is described as having a greater disparity than that between himself and Abeloth, e.g "using the Force with greater strength than I ever did [including his highest-end feats like TUF, Dovin Basal, Jade Shadow, Dark Empire]" and "a dozen times the Force strength of". This means that Vol is closer combatively to Luke than he is Abeloth (fairly obvious).

There is not a ragdoll gap between Abeloth and Luke, nor is there one between her and Vol. In fact, she actually has to work pretty hard to subdue either despite the fact she is head and shoulders the most powerful being in Star Wars barring a few exceptions like the Ones. Her casual, actualised expressions of power are in excess of what is needed for Sidious needs to create fleet-consuming Force storms, any ritual any of the ancient Sith have ever created, Unuthul drawing on trillions of beings, and so on. The gap between Vol and Luke is even smaller than their gaps between themselves and Abeloth. So what we're looking at is:

Abeloth > Full Power Luke > Darish Vol / Normal Luke >[insert fucktarded scaling between FotJ Luke and DE Luke]> Dark Empire Luke > Dark Empire Sidious in a duel > Mid-DE Luke in a duel (superior to Galen, Yoda and Windu power-wise) / [alternatively insert fucktarded scaling between Dark Empire Luke/Sidious and TPM Sidious] > TPM Sidious > Vitiate / Onslaught Malgus >[insert fucktarded scaling between Onslaught and Deceived Malgus] > Deceived Malgus

Remind me again why the Outlander should even be mentioned in the same category as someone with direct comparisons to Abeloth and Luke.

It's not up to us to prove The Outlander is beyond Vol, because this isn't an Outlander vs Vol matchup. This is a ranking of most Force Users combative capability, and there's no reason for me - or anyone else - to vote for someone to beat on that list who's unquantifiable.

If your only response to the evidence presented is that it is "unquantifiable" that presupposes that you can, with precision, quantify by what numerical value the Outlander is above Malgus, and also, because you are asking for quantification, by what numerical value the Outlander is above Vol. But seeing as you've done an even poorer job of doing that than me so far I'm again, unsure, why anyone should throw their vote away on the Outlander?

Disagree with most points ILS made. But I’m still switching to Vol because I think your interpretation is more authorial and probabilist even it not fully substantiated. I still think he should be banned seeing as he is too unquantifiable, but it’s a game of probabilities.

Ah, you see my children, you do not understand. DARISH FOHL is far too UNQUANTIFIABLE to be ranked here. We must hit him with the BAN HAMMER in order to prevent such a disgraceful character from being placed. We must back THE OUTLANDER instead.

With that said I reiterate my vote for DARISH FOHL.

Outlander wins brao.

Gonna vote for Vol on this one.