★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

Syndiciate wrote:Starkiller.

Could you or HP perhaps make a case 

> Korriban wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Starkiller.

Could you or HP perhaps make a case 

dont u know? he left burn marks on sheev's coat. thats above what valkorion could even dream of doing tbh

Votes so far: 

Darish vol: 5
Exar Kun: 4
Outlander:4
Starkiller: 2
Tenebrous: 1
Geth:1 
Vaylin:1

Anyone making a case for Shimrra? Heard he/she is pretty strong, but I’m pretty ignorant about the Yuzhang Vong era

Vol.

Gianfi wrote:Anyone making a case for Shimrra? Heard he/she is pretty strong, but I’m pretty ignorant about the Yuzhang Vong era

He's banned in the character list.

> Korriban wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Starkiller.

Could you or HP perhaps make a case 

I've been meaning to, but I have other posts to write first. If I get those done, I'll be down to make a case for Starkiller.

IG wrote:

Gianfi wrote:Anyone making a case for Shimrra? Heard he/she is pretty strong, but I’m pretty ignorant about the Yuzhang Vong era

He's banned in the character list.

Got it, thanks

Vol

> Korriban wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Starkiller.

Could you or HP perhaps make a case 

I'd want to do one that was comprehensive and addressed common misconceptions. Seeing as I'm already making full threads for some of those however and most people are aware of the arguments for or against, I don't see a point.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol

thats mah boy

Exar Kun

I must, I am afraid, address Darish Vol.

The primary quote used in his support, is the following:

Fate of the Jedi wrote:Abeloth sat huddled in Ship's interior. She had not revealed to Khai or anyone just how badly wounded she had been by the attack on Kesh. Vol had much of the power of Skywalker, combined with experience, and it had been a devastating encounter.

Vol having 'much of' Luke Skywalker's power is generally impressive. But define 'much of', is it half as much? A quarter? Two-thirds? I see no reason Exar Kun or the Outlander or others can't appeal to such an undefined claim.

One quote I could see used in support is this:

Fate of the Jedi wrote:But he had tricked her, had used a technique that his antithesis had used on her not so long before. He had learned the uprooting technique of the Theran Listeners, as had the despised Skywalker, and used it with even less care than that Jedi had.

I would need some serious explanation and provided context to believe this means Vol is Luke's antithesis in power and not because Vol, like Luke, is the leader of his respective Order.

Then we get to this exchange between Vol and Abeloth:

Essential Reader's Companion wrote:As he sleeps that night, Vol is visited by Abeloth in his dreams. She attacks the Grand Lord in this state, but he fights back with his keen mind. He is able to peer past Abeloth’s illusions and see her as a painfully lonely being desperate to be loved. Frustrated with Vol’s tenacity, Abeloth reacts by blasting a Force shock wave that devastates the city of Tahv. Millions of citizens die in the disaster—among them Vestara Khai’s mother, Lahka—though Vol survives.

But the full context of this fight makes it clear that Darish tricked Abeloth into opening herself up for his attack, in other words her guard was down because of 'arrogance' and being 'reckless':

Fate of the Jedi wrote:He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.

In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.

Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...

-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-

Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-

He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.

So not only is Vol not a peer for Luke in a way that you can argue Kun wouldn't be. But Vol's main display of power was essentially a trick and not something achieved through raw power.

Honestly seeing nothing to out him up over Exar Kun.

But in the mean time, I want to address a few points so that everyone can see them.

Vol having 'much of' Luke Skywalker's power is generally impressive. But define 'much of', is it half as much? A quarter? Two-thirds? I see no reason Exar Kun or the Outlander or others can't appeal to such an undefined claim.

As I said in the other thread, trying to quantify this accolade, imo, is the wrong way to approach it. What Abeloth is saying here, is that Vol is close enough to Luke that a fight between her and Vol would result is a “devastating encounter”, or, to put it simply, not a stomp, which is supported by the fight itself, as I’ll explain later. 

One quote I could see used in support is this:
I would need some serious explanation and provided context to believe this means Vol is Luke's antithesis in power and not because Vol, like Luke, is the leader of his respective Order.

The statement is said right after Vol defeats Abeloth. As a matter of fact, the entire passage addresses Vol’s force power and abilities compared to Luke’s and their prospective uses on mnemotherapy. Add that to to the much of the power quote and it fits rather well. Here’s the entire passage, if you are interested. 

Abeloth had been wandering the City of Glass when she had attacked Vol. She had been enjoying the calmness and prettiness of the place illuminated by the fireglobes, and had been idly thinking about what she might do with it once it came under her control. Should she make this her base, from which to rule the galaxy? It was quaint and charming. Or should she give it to those who had served her well, as a reward?

Too, the attack on Grand Lord Vol had been in her mind the moment Ship had begun to head for Kesh. She had wanted to strike here on this world, from the center of this place of which he was so proud; to show Vol and the others that nothing they held as precious was safe from her. She knew he was a powerful Force-user and strong with the dark side. And that, she could have handled.

But he had tricked her, had used a technique that his antithesis had used on her not so long before. He had learned the uprooting technique of the Theran Listeners, as had the despised Skywalker, and used it with even less care than that Jedi had.

He had-

Abeloth screamed from a mouth that slashed her face in two. Unable to retain her form, unable even to notice that she had not retained her form, she thrashed and howled as tentacles erupted from her torso and her face shifted like melting wax. Her anguish used the Force as a weapon, as she had so often before, but this time she was barely aware that she was releasing nearly inconceivable amounts of Force energy upon a city that was completely unprepared for it.

So not only is Vol not a peer for Luke in a way that you can argue Kun wouldn't be. But Vol's main display of power was essentially a trick and not something achieved through raw power.

This is simply not true. Yes, Vol’s victory was achieved by using mnemotherapy, but let’s not forget that Vol:

(1) resisted her tentacles, which were invading his physical body, as can be seen in the quote you provided. Notably, Abeloth’s  tentacles are a manifestation of raw power, and even Luke has repeatedly struggled to defend against. 

(2) Vol Tanked “a blast of anger” from Abeloth, a part of the quote which, strangely enough, you have left out: 

Ascension wrote:A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.

So surely Vol isn’t powerful enough to win a fight conventionally, but all indications are that he is good enough to withstand Abeloth for a time. Arguing the fight was purely a trick is simply wrong. 

The argument I am making is not that Vol entirely tricked her, only that he probably saves himself from worse afterwards because of this. And my problem comes with the assumption that simply because Vol can perform so well, this is somehow beyond the abilities of others voted for in this thread. How do we know they can't perform similarly?

I vote for Exar Kun

Vol’s feats are adimittedly quite expensive. I’m still keeping my vote for Kun, but I may change it to Vol before the end of the debate. Also, why is no one voting for Geth in this round?

Vol, Outlander or Dooku for me ATM. Let's see how the cases unfold.

Gianfi wrote:Vol’s feats are adimittedly quite expensive. I’m still keeping my vote for Kun, but I may change it to Vol before the end of the debate. Also, why is no one voting for Geth in this round?

1.Vol's feats are impressive but not beyond the realm of Kun. Kun is up with NJO Luke, perhaps not TUF or anything but definitely in a more measurable way than Vol can claim to be.

2.Geth argument died in the prior round.

Withdrawing my vote due to uncertainty and adopting a position of neutrality... for now.

I vote for The Outlander.

I am going to change my vote to the COMMANDER.

Just in case anyone forgot the metric we are using for the tournament: the metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus as of Decieved would need an amp to defeat them. Considering the Outlander scales directly from Malgus as of False Emperor (which takes place 12 years after Decieved) it would make sense to focus on their fight and the Outlander's subsequent growth after that. If I feel the need to go more in-depth with regards to the Outlander's feats/scaling I will do so in a later post.

Before the Malgus Fight (Acts I-III)

Just to give a quick summary of the events leading up to the Malgus fight I'll very briefly go through the Outlander's greatest hits up to this point.

I. The Emperor's Fortress
To put in concisely, the Hero fought through a considerable number of the Emperor's most elite forces specifically trained to kill Jedi and then at the very least fought Scourge to a standstill if not possessing the upper hand before the rest of the strike team arrived all while on a powerful dark side nexus.

If you want a more in-depth analysis of this then check out the blog I just made: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2893-scourge-vs-the-hero-of-tython-context-and-circumstances#54566

II. The Kaas Gauntlet
Before the Outlander reached the Dark Temple, he and his small group of companions fought through a city of Imperials including Imperial Guard and Sith that had been rallied to protect the Emperor [source]. By the time the Outlander reached the Emperor, he has already fought through an army of Imperials on a dark side nexus and then an additional coalition of Imperials in a dark side nexus within another dark side nexus while also saving his allies from death along the way, and yet still had the energy to resist the influence of the Emperor and the dark side entities within the temple and ultimately defeat the Emperor in the heart of his power [source]. Even after the Emperor was defeated, he still had the remaining energy to collapse the majority of the temple which was intentionally created to contain the power of dark side entities such as Vitiate [source]. Both Scourge and Satele state that only the Outlander is capable of resisting the Emperor's influence and defeating him [source].

Malgus

During the Battle of Ilum, the Hero led the Republic forces against Malgus' New Empire which culminated in Malgus' defeat and the destruction of his revolution. The Hero began his assault in the trenches in which he turned the tide of battle from a slaughter to a fighting chance to eventually forcing the enemy to retreat after breaking through the front lines and into the Adega mines [source]. After fighting through the mines he eventually made it to Fort Barrow where he confronted Darth Serevin (Emperor Malgus' second in command) and Voss warrior Queneth Li and defeated them in combat.

After pushing Malgus' forces off of Ilum the Hero appropriated one of Malgus' stealth fighters and flew to the Emperor's Fortress (the same fortress where the HoT fought Scourge and Vitiate which is a dark side nexus as we established earlier) which Malgus had captured and converted to his base of operations; the seat of his new empire. Malgus merged the Foundry with the fortress which gave him access to an army of droids at his disposal which he employed for the defense of the fortress. Once the Hero arrives on the fortress he fights through Malgus' most elite forces [source] consisted of alien mercenaries, droids, Sith, the Mandalorian Jindo Krey who had the assistance of a D5-Mantis which was firing missiles at the Hero while they fought, HK-47, and a Sith spirit of "unspeakable power" [source] that Vitiate had locked away prior to Malgus taking the station over. After the Hero defeated all of these foes he finally confronted Malgus in the Emperor's throne room and bested him in combat, putting an end to Malgus' revolution. Given that the Outlander fought through an army of alien mercenaries, droids, Mandalorians, Sith, etc. and then proceeded to defeat Darth Malgus all while on a dark side nexus I think it's fair to say the Outlander even by this point is considerably above Malgus who is twenty years separated from his Deceived iteration.

The Dread War

During the war against the Dread Masters on Oricon, the Outlander stumbled upon the holocrons of each Dread Master (besides Styrak who had died before the events on Oricon) and accessed the knowledge within them. The Dread Masters possessed centuries worth of dark side knowledge and one of their members, Dread Master Brontes, "had been a major contributor to the Sith Academy archives, and her insights into the nature and purpose of sacred artifacts led to the construction of the Dark Temple". This would mean Brontes would be over 1000 years old [source]. Not to mention that the other Dread Masters have been around for centuries as well. This means the Outlander had access to the knowledge and techniques developed over a thousand years from some of the most powerful Sith ever to grace the Sith Empire. While the Outlander most likely wouldn't employ these techniques, he would surely know how to counter them, meaning that any sort of mental domination employed against him would be met with a staunch defense considering that the Dread were masters of mental domination.

Video of uncovering the holocrons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBHPEt-tjxQ

Shadow of Revan

As @DarthAnt66 pointed out in his case for Revan earlier in the tournament, the Outlander underwent a cleansing of the spirit and repossessed all of the training he had undergone and forgotten during his stint (the exact amount of time isn't clear but it was likely a few months) as the Emperor's thrall.

We have Valk, Scourge, and Satele all making comments on how the Outlander's Jedi training shackles their full potential, and we know this is true given that the Outlander experiences a large power growth after going "beyond light and dark" following their training with Satele and Darth Marr. The Outlander trained under Vitiate after they fell to the dark side, giving them access to newfound power and suppressed the memories after breaking free from Vitiate's domination, but later on, the Outlander met with the spirit of Orgus Din on Rishi who helped him recover the training [source]. Given that growth is accelerated by the dark side and the Outlander was no longer bound by Jedi teachings, so healing his old wound as well as integrating the dark side training into his current self for sure resulted in a respectable growth in power.

Knights of the Fallen Empire/Knights of the Eternal Throne

Over the course of the story, the Outlander is able to call upon Valkorion's power and channel it through his own body. The first time the Outlander is able to use Valkorion’s power (AOE Force blast against the knights) the Outlander comes out unscathed.




The second time the Outlander is able to use Valkorion’s power (Force push against Heskal) they once again suffer no ill effects.




The third time the Outlander uses Valkorion’s power (huge lightning blast hurled at Arcann) he almost dies from the sheer power being channeled through his body.





Valkorion essentially maxes out the physical limitations of the Outlander's body in his lightning blast directed at Arcann and even that is not enough to deal any real damage to Arcann even after Arcann had just spent some of his reserves fighting the Outlander. The power output was enough to render the Outlander comatose for two days and during that time Valkorion was healing the Outlander to keep him from dying. Lana noted that Valkorion's lightning blast killed hundreds [source]. Evidently, the gap between Arcann and the Outlander as of their first fight was exorbitant, as not only was Arcann able to block the lightning blast, but he also telekinetically dominated the Outlander even when the Outlander had his defenses up.







A few months after Arcann and the Outlander's first fight, Valkorion strengthened the Outlander's bond to the Force and then the Outlander proceeded to briefly train under the tutelage of Darth Marr and Satele Shan and learned how to utilize the Force as a whole - unconstrained by Jedi teachings - and ascended beyond the duality of light and dark. In Arcann and the Outlander's second duel, the Outlander proved to be the superior combatant, growing massively and leapfrogging the gap between them from the previous fight. It should also be noted that the Outlander fought through Arcann's flagship defenses (which included an Exarch) before confronting Arcann, meaning he had already used up some of his reserves prior to the fight. Given that the Outlander was able to defeat Arcann who was channeling his full power, this would mean that the Outlander would scale above the showings of Valkorion taking over the Outlander's body [source].

Fast forward a few months to Vaylin and the Outlander's first fight and we see Vaylin overpower the Outlander with a telekinetic push which would have led to the Outlander's demise if not for Valkorion's intervention. It should be noted however that it's implied the Outlander underestimated Vaylin going into the fight which would make sense considering the Outlander's only reference for Vaylin's combat abilities is from when she lost to Senya as a markedly inferior version of herself relative to when she fought the Outlander [source].

About a month or so later, if the Outlander decided not to make an attempt to redeem Arcann they will fight him again after he fights Vaylin for several minutes. It should be noted that Arcann likely underwent a considerable amount of growth since he last fought the Outlander since he had a near-death experience, underwent a sacred Voss healing ritual, and then lost his mother at the hands of the Outlander. When Arcann and the Outlander engaged each other, Arcann had the assistance of his lackeys that would come in waves and increase in number and strength with each subsequent wave, but even that was not enough to stop the Outlander who ultimately defeated and killed Arcann. While Arcann did fight Vaylin solo for an extended period of time prior to his fight with the Outlander and wouldn't be at full capacity, it should be noted that the Outlander also fought through Vaylin's beast pit which included a giant rancor [source].

The final showdown between Vaylin and the Outlander took place shortly after she broke her conditioning and obtained full access to her power - roughly over a month or so since Vaylin's duel with Arcann. The Outlander fought through Vaylin's invading army alongside his allies and then finally confronted Vaylin after baiting her down from her ship to the frontlines. Both the dialogue and the Outlander's memory of the fight imply that the Outlander fought Vaylin 1v1 while his allies engaged her soldiers [source]. The Outlander, while not necessarily more powerful than Vaylin, was able to make adjustments from their prior fight that allowed him to defeat her, which makes sense considering that the Outlander is far more masterful and experienced than Vaylin who most likely did not make adjustments from their prior fight which led to her downfall. Even though we don't really get to witness the fight since it's all gameplay, the Outlander probably took advantage of Vaylin's unstable use of the Force to find openings in her defenses that may not have existed when she was chained and had more control over her power. Vaylin even has a mechanic called "Force Instability" where he powers grow more and more unstable the more damage the Outlander deals to her [source]. Now you may look at Vaylin's final attempt at defeating the Outlander when she uses her Force Maelstrom and Valkorion shielding the Outlander from the initial blastwave as proof that Vaylin is superior due to the Outlander not being the one to conjure a barrier to defend against her attack, but this view is misconstrued. Valkorion warned the Outlander that Vaylin wasn't done but he didn't give the Outlander any indication of what Vaylin was about to do, so he wouldn't have been able to conjure the defense needed for such a blast. The Outlander could have thought Vaylin was about to attack him with another lightsaber or telekinetic attack and not a full-blown Force Maelstrom in which she unleashed her full potency.

An alternative look and perhaps a better quantifier for the Outlander's growth is how he reacts to absorbing the spirits of Arcann, Valkorion, and Vaylin. The mode in which the spirits enter the Outlander's body are consistent across each showing which allows us to compare them. In KOTFE Ch. 1, Valkorion "dies" and infiltrates the Outlander’s body which knocks the Outlander out long enough to be taken away and put in carbonite [source]. In KOTET Ch. 6, the Outlander can absorb Arcann’s spirit if they kill him and is blown back and incapacitated for what seems to be a little less than a minute or so [source]. In KOTET Ch. 8, the Outlander absorbs Vaylin’s spirit which brings them down to their knees but is otherwise fine [source]. The Outlander seems to be getting progressively better at absorbing spirits in a relatively short amount of time since Vaylin's spirit at this point should be far more potent than Arcann's and the absorption of Arcann's spirit did less damage than the absorption of Vaylin's. While you could try and make the argument that this could be due to Valkorion getting better at tethering spirits while inside the Outlander's body, the Outlander still won't struggle with absorbing Vaylin even if they haven't absorbed Arcann which seems to indicate that Valkorion doesn't directly have anything to do with how much strain the process imposes.

After the Vaylin fight, the Outlander goes on to fight the Machine Gods of Iokath, the Order of Zildrog, and the renewed war between the Empire and Republic. During which, he actually acquired the holocron of Ood Bnar on Ossus [source]. During Onslaught, we actually see the Outlander's old adversaries in awe at his power, namely Darth Malgus and Darth Savik.

Darth Savik, a member of the Dark Council, was defeated on Corellia by the Outlander prior to her ascension but she survived, however. Over the next 10 years or so, she dedicated her entire life to preparing to face the Outlander again after humiliating her, and well, things didn't go so well for her as you probably guessed:






Malgus, who as we know lost to the Outlander roughly ten years prior to Onslaught, faced the Outlander again, and well, things didn't go so well for him either. When the Outlander arrived, Malgus believed that he could defeat the Outlander and co. easily with his new cybernetic enhancements:



To then being convinced that the Outlander was actually capable of defeating the man who destroyed Ziost:





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So yeah, Decieved Malgus would need a gargantuan amp to overcome the utterly massive gap between him and the Outlander. No other character mentioned so far besides Vaylin - who is an inferior to the Outlander - directly scales from Malgus and anyone who claims Malgus would need a larger amp to defeat their character than the Outlander is just guessing, while the Outlander factually scales far beyond him.

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Edit:

For the Outlander vs Vaylin stuff:

https://j.gifs.com/p8jpyN.gif
https://j.gifs.com/zvwDGZ.gif
https://j.gifs.com/3QxgLx.gif


[hideedit]

*Clapping* Great post.