Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 23rd 2020, 12:45 am

Voting for Outlander.

March 23rd 2020, 4:16 am Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Even though the descriptor "much the power of Luke Skywalker" is fairly opaque on its own, alongside the context it's stated in, it's actually extremely beneficial to Vol, and perhaps enough to seal him the victory here. Few reasons:

1. Abeloth is comparing Vol to a Luke Skywalker who she has seen exert his full power at least twice by this point in time.

2. "Much the power of" indicates Vol and Luke are pretty damn close, when we consider that across LotF/FotJ we have other descriptors like:

a. Abeloth being "a dozen times" as powerful as Luke and using the Force with "greater" power than he ever did, even in her off-page showings, opposed to her best feats.

Fate of the Jedi: Vortex wrote:It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat.

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction wrote:"Abeloth." Luke repressed a sigh. "She's here. Somewhere. Experimenting. Using the Force with greater strength than I ever did, certainly."

b. Caedus fighting Jaina one-armed indicated "how much greater his Force powers were than her own".

Legacy of the Force: Invincible wrote:That brought Caedus's gaze snapping back toward her, and Jaina realized she might have overplayed her hand. She still had both arms, but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own. She tossed the beskad aside and summoned a fallen stormtrooper's power blaster to hand.

c. Caedus believing he could defeat Leia or Ben without trouble, but Saba with difficulty.

Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:Jacen could defeat his mother or Ben without trouble; Saba, with difficulty.

And there are others. LotF and FotJ are littered with these combat/power level type quotes where characters are gauging their strength or the strength of others relative to a powerful opponent, and since we know what some of these gaps actually look like - most importantly, the gap between Abeloth and Luke - we can deduce the gap between Vol and Luke.

Abeloth cannot ragdoll Luke, in fact, she does have to treat him with some measure of respect - we see that in the Beyond Shadows fight where she "stands off defensively" and "counterattacks" with Force Lightning rather than straight up demolishing him, and even in the above quote itself where, even though it takes everything he has, Luke can still stop Abeloth from choking him out physically. Given that the scale of Abeloth's power utterly shits on basically every Sith and Jedi in history even during their most circumstance-ridden, prepped, ritualistic feats, that alone speaks volumes of Luke and thus Vol's power. But more importantly, if Abeloth is meant to be a "dozen times" as strong as Luke, but cannot ragdoll or outright destroy him, then Vol having "much the power of Luke" indicates not only that Luke is far, far closer to Vol in power than he is Abeloth, but that it's a close match up in of itself should they fight.

3. Like it or hate it, the authorial intent behind the FotJ series is not that Luke wtfstomps the other high tiers of the era - the intent is expressly that, as powerful as Luke is, he is only human, he can make mistakes and lose fights, and there are worthy opponents for him. Now, whether you think this summation of his power is a lowball in of itself is irrelevant - if you think he should be portrayed as a demigod who wtfstomps everyone bar Abeloth - because that does not change the content of the story itself - but what it does indicate is the intended relative power between Luke and someone like Darish Vol, and the intention appears, again, to be pretty close.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Unknow17

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Unknow18

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Unknow19

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 He9yot10

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Adk8x810

Now, combine that with the fact that, circumstances in-mind, Vol did briefly fend off and ultimately survive against a being with "a dozen times" the Force strength Luke has even at his most powerful moments, and said being has feats like shoving a planet-threatening amount of dark side energy which dwarfed anything Luke had ever sensed before *coughfleet-eating-Force-stormscough* into a humanoid body, melting cities with subconscious expressions of anger, and being more powerful than the Lost Tribe of the Sith collectively, I'd say he's well-poised to win this.

A simple "well, we don't know if X wouldn't do as well as Vol" doesn't really suffice here. The scale of his feats are, thanks to Abeloth and Luke, head and shoulders above pretty much every other era in Star Wars. The default assumption is that when Vol appears to be the most powerful candidate, the burden of proof would be on the opposing side to provide evidence that their chosen champion is as powerful as Vol, rather than asking someone to disprove that this character is as powerful as Vol. Someone voting for Vol is not burdened with having to prove a negative. Otherwise, we could cut off every debate with, "well, that's a cool feat, but we don't know if X couldn't replicate it" - well, have you provided any reason to think they could? If not...

So yeah, going with Vol here, who probably should have won some of the previous rounds as well.

March 23rd 2020, 4:34 am

Very great post for the Outlander. Man, I really can't choose

March 23rd 2020, 4:39 am

Great posts from both @Praxis and @ILS, I'll wait until @LadyKulvax responds to make a final decision

March 23rd 2020, 4:50 am

As potent as Praxis' case is, I must reiterate what was proven in my original post:

LadyKulvax wrote:How does Exar Kun measure up in The Old Republic era?

Let's take Lord Kallig, who through the spirit of Darth Andru is a demonstratable superior for early Act II Darth Nox:

This being in a state where Kallig's spirit has now been constantly drained of its power for a thousand years by Tenebrae:

SWTOR: Encyclopedia wrote:Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Lord Kallig in his prime would be vastly more powerful by an excessive degree than his spirit was there as he himself states that he now needs to 'conserve his energy' as even appearing 'takes much' out of him.

So: Lord Kallig >>> Spirit of Lord Kallig > BoActII!Nox.

Lord Kallig in his prime was an inferior of the reigning Dark Lord Tulak Hord:

Kallig Codex Entry wrote:Little is remembered of the Sith Lord Kallig. Like many ancient Sith, his name is all but forgotten, as more powerful--or at least more visible--Sith Lords have taken their place in the historical record. The only known mention of Kallig is in the writings of the famous Dark Lord Tulak Hord, who said "Easily the most ambitious, and therefore the most dangerous of my rivals is Kallig. Therefore, he shall be the first to die."

Prior to Tulak Hord 'devouring' the spirits of 1,000 Jedi:

The Ritual of Tulak Hord Codex Entry wrote:In his time as Dark Lord of the Sith, Tulak Hord was known as a master of the mystical dark arts of the Force, using his powers to plumb the depths of life and death. In the battles of Yn and Chabosh, Tulak Hord is believed to have used a ritual to draw the strength of his enemies to himself, growing his power and vitality.

SWTOR: Encyclopedia wrote:One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hord's side to conqueror an army of Jedi 1,000 strong.

Force-Walking Codex Entry wrote:Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh.

Via what is stated to be a far more complete and powerful ritual than Force-walking which is binding spirits, as Darth Nox does after Act I. Noting how vast the difference in power between Nox pre-ghosts and Nox with all of them was:

Force-Walking Codex Entry wrote:Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies.

Therefore Tulak Hord >>>> Lord Kallig >>> Kallig's spirit > BoActII!Darth Nox.

Tulak Hord, naturally, was less powerful than Marka Ragnos who himself is less powerful than Exar Kun.

Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord >>>> Lord Kallig >>> Spirit Kallig > BoAct II Nox.

Lord Kallig himself should definitely be up near SoR Nox given the enormous disparity between his living and spiritual states. With prime Tulak Hord being in another stratosphere compared to Lord Kallig. Yeah, you can do the scaling yourself at this point.

As I extrapolated upon here, Lord Kallig in his living state being at least around Darth Nox as of Shadow of Revan should certainly put Tulak Hord, a Sith of another magnitude of power compared to Kallig given his devouring of such immense power, well beyond SOR Nox. With Marka Ragnos above him canonically; given the powers of his sword that was imbued with Ragnos' taint contain resurrecting the dead and bestowing permanent Force-sensitivity compared to the power of the artifacts of Hord such as his mask or lightsaber, probably very considerably too. Yet Exar Kun, possibly as early as the destruction of Ossus, where he's far less powerful, is even more powerful than Ragnos was.

So I find the argument that the Outlander is the only Sith with possible scaling from Malgus to be highly questionable at best.

Beyond that, Exar Kun's knowledge edge and feats in other eras, gives him the direct ability to measure up across the timeline. And Malgus is going to find himself lacking against someone who canonically makes TPM Darth Maul look like a piss-ant.

March 23rd 2020, 6:03 am Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

For those of you still hesitant on Vol, it’s important to note that his hype isn’t entirely reliant the famous quote that compares him to Luke or the fight with Abeloth, both of which, while great sources of hype and the intent behind them is pretty clear, are ultimately left for interpretation, even if, as @ILS explained extremely, a strong case can be made for Luke and Vol being close in force power. However, Vol’s does sit on a pile of quite impressive individuals, as will be explained in this post, which will hopefully make his relativity to Luke seem more believable.

Vestara Khai

Already as of Omen, Vestara is repeatedly noted as being extremely powerful in the the force, not long after, as she meets the Skywalkers, Luke is extremely impressed by her innate power:

Omen wrote:She was of the Tribe, the daughter of a Sith Saber. She was exceptionally strong in the Force and knew it.

Allies wrote:But it was, Luke realized, entirely possible that Ben might get a little confused now and then. Vestara was strikingly attractive, and had presumably been through things comparable to what Ben had undergone. And she was extremely, in fact exceptionally, strong in the Force. It was a combination that might make any father at least a little anxious for his Jedi son’s well-being

Later in the book, Vestara moves around a speeder in a way that impresses none other than Ben Skywalker:

Allies wrote:Vestara shrugged, reached out a hand, made a fist, and tugged. The speeder lifted up, careened over the rows of speeders, farming equipment, and one or two animals that bleated and hooted in alarm, landed, and bounce slightly in the soft sand a meter away from them. Now it was Ben’s turn to stare. She’d maneuvered the speeder as if it were no more cumbersome than a pak’pah fruit. Vestara noticed his expression and shot him a grin. Ben recovered quickly.

Sith master Xal

Back to Abyss, during a mission to the maw, Vestara notes how sith master Xal can crush her with the force at any moment, her master’s presence being the only thing preventing Xal from doing so:

Abyss wrote: Had Lady Rhea not been standing there, Vestara was quite sure that response would have been a Force spike through her own heart

Obviously, this denotes an enormous gap between the two.
Note that Vestara grows a lot throughout the series, but considering that she’s unable to conclusively beat Gavar Khai, one of the better sith sabers, I would say she never overcame the gap between herself and Xal, so he gets all of her feats (stomping sith sabers...).

Olaris Rhea

Also present on the aforementioned mission to the maw, Rhea is repeatedly noted as one of the most respected Sith Lords on Kesh:

Omen wrote:She had hated that about it until Lady Rhea, one of the most respected of the Sith Lords, had told her that deception was actually a very useful thing indeed.”

As for Xal, we know she is superior to him to the point where he does not dare to challenge her, unlike Rhea’s subordinates, which is made clear to be a result of her superior power:

Abyss wrote:Taking her lead from Lady Rhea, Vestara leaned slightly forward and turned to lock gazes with Xal. It was a terrible affront for a mere apprentice to face a Master in such a manner. And that affront would suggest to the entire crew that Lady Rhea’s power was so great that even her charges felt secure in challenging Xal
[...]
“It wasn’t Ahri challenging Lady Rhea, it was Xal, trying to use his apprentice to embarrass her. The difference was that Lady Rhea had the power to turn his ploy against him. If she decided to punish Ahri herself, Xal was not strong enough to protect his apprentice, and the rest of the crew would take that failure as a further sign of his weakness—which, of course, was the reason that Lady Rhea almost certainly would kill Ahri.”

Sinkhole station Luke

Rhea later fights Luke Skywalker. The grand master is at his weakest, but he manages to maintain the upper hand over her, despite Vestara’s help, in stark contrast to the rest of the strike team, whom Luke defeats without any effort:

Spoiler:

Viun Galaan

Another Sith Lord of Kesh, Galaan fights Luke on Dathomir shorty after his experiences in the Maw, though Luke has recovered to a degree, he is still operating far below his peak, and Galaan holds his own against him. Regardless, Luke notes Galaan would have been too much for him on SS, meaning Galaan is most certainly superior to the likes of Rhea. (See this blog for all the relevant quotes). While one may argue Dathomir is a nexus, we know Luke can draw from it as well, as seen in the courtship of Princess Leia. Luke also compares Galaan to “expert swordmasters” such as Kyle Katarn and Kyp Durron, the former being “a threat” to Darth Caedus.

Galaan also has another notable feat:

Backlash wrote:“Well trained and experienced, her Nightsisters brought up weapons and began weaving attack spells. About half of them turned to confront the enemies to the rear. A moment later the rancors they controlled began to turn, too.
Dresdema turned back toward the shuttles, dropping her spear, her hands weaving a spell of flame that she intended for the man who dared try to trick her.
But the woman beside the lavender-skinned leader pointed at Dresdema and snapped her fingers almost casually. A glowing, twisting, crackling arc of purple-blue erupted from her hand and slammed into Dresdema’s chest.
She felt her body convulse, felt and saw her hair stand on end. It was lightning, far more concentrated than that which the Nightsisters knew how to hurl.
Dresdema jerked and spasmed, her body racked with pain. It did not deprive her of her senses, but she could not weave her spell, could not pick up her spear. She stumbled, fell to one knee.
She saw the lavender-skinned man go airborne as if hurled by a giant. He flew toward the rancor to Dresdema’s right. The lightsaber now in his hand glowed into red light. The rancor reached for him but missed and the Sith man passed beside its head on the far side, bouncing off its shoulder, flipping to a preternaturally graceful landing behind the rancor.
The rancor’s head lolled toward Dresdema … then separated completely from its neck and fell free.”

He faces the nightsisters (described as ”well-trained and experienced”) along with other sith sabers along with blitzing a rancor, and they are shown to be far superior to them. By contrast, post-ROTJ Luke struggles against other, lowe level, nightsisters, so that should give an idea of Galaan’s standing.

Ivaar Workan

Workan’s vast superiority to Galaan , while not stated directly can be inferred by multiple sources. For example, Workan and Taalon are chosen by Ship, a choice Vestara considers unsurprising considering their power, which implies they are already among the most powerful in the tribe, an accolade Galaan does not share anywhere in his lone appearance in Backlash:

First Blood wrote:Murmurs of excitement arose, and then the names were placed in their minds. High Lord Sarasu Taalon. No surprise there, Vestara thought. Dark purple head held high, the Keshiri High Lord seemed unable to keep from smirking as he strode up to stand beside the Sith training sphere. Lord Ivaar Workan. Again, not unexpected. Both men, the Keshiri and the older human male, were powerful in the Force and, Vestara had heard, ruthless as well. Of course, Ship would choose them.

Furthermore, Workan is much more powerful than Lady Sashal, another high Lord, an accolade which Galaan clearly doesn’t match in the slightest:

Ascension wrote:Sith take what we want," said Sashal, stepping toward Workan. Vol watched both of them closely, idly wondering if Sashal was issuing a challenge to her superior. It would be foolish. She was nowhere near as powerful as Workan. But sometimes ambition and wisdom did not go hand in hand.

Or else, Workan remained the strongest sith on Coruscant after Vol’s death, in a timeframe in which several powerful Sith Lords (possibly even Galaan himself) and even high lords were confirmed to be still alive:

Ascension wrote:With Grand Lord Vol dead, he was, effectively, the highest-ranking Sith not only on Coruscant, but in the entire Lost Tribe.

Furthermore Jaina, who at this point is at the very least on par with Kyp and Katarn, muses she is unlikely to stand up to a high lord in a fight:

Apocalypse wrote: So that makes him at least a Lord, and probably a High Lord,” Jaina said, realizing her objective had changed from killing the enemy to keeping Ben from being killed by the enemy. Battles were unpredictable like that. “Are you really ready to go after a Sith High Lord? Because I’m not—not when he has all the advantages.

Granted, there are some circumstances involved, but the overall point is that high lords are, in most cases, far above any of the Sith Lords, which would include Galaan. Add that to the fact that Workan plays a key role in the tribe’s… ascension (a society where one rises according to ability) unlike Galaan, and his superiority seems obvious.

Darish Vol

Along with the myriad of quotes saying Vol is the most powerful on Kesh, we know Vol can kill Workan before he can mutter an apology, which, just like with Xal and Vestara, indicates an abysmal gap between the two.

Ascension wrote:But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-

No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

Darish Vol>>>>Ivaar Workan>>>Viun Galaan(>>post-ROTJ Luke)>>SS Luke>Olaris Rhea>>Sith master Xal>>>>Early Vestara Khai

With this scaling in mind, i think it’s obvious Vol is a top tier and ranks among the most powerful sith lords in history.

March 23rd 2020, 6:14 am

Ok, I am changing my vote to Vol. Kun, Outlander and Vol are all impressive though, so I would be fine with either winning.

March 23rd 2020, 7:09 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

ILS wrote:Even though the descriptor "much the power of Luke Skywalker" is fairly opaque on its own,

I can entirely sympathize with the position that you take here, but the factor is that even with such context in mind the opaque value doesn't vanish. I am not saying that 'much of the power' equates to nothing. Obviously the author wouldn't have bothered if it was meaningless. But the fact remains, how much of a gap in power exists between the two? I can't help but be reminded of one of the most infamous quotes in the history of the mythos. The '80 percent of the Emperor' quote Darth Vader has from Lucas himself.

It's much too debatable. Exar Kun due to New Rebellion can boast being far more powerful than the Luke seen in that novel due to Kueller as shown in the first post. That'd put Kun well up to an early New Jedi Order Luke. Can we definitively say that 'much of' Luke's power at that point in FOTJ is more than the Luke in NJO? Less?

Perhaps a far more comparable measurement should be made the following way. Viun Gaalan "might have been a match" for Kyp Durron in combat, yet Gaalan was inferior to Ivaar Workan as Workan unlike Gaalan was among the seven High Lords, a position earned through raw power:

Ascension wrote:Although the attractive, graying human male had been a Lord for many years, he was new to his rank of High Lord. Taalon's untimely demise had paved the way for Workan's promotion. Vol had enjoyed watching Workan step into the role as if he had been born to it. While Sith truly trusted no one but themselves and the Force, Vol nonetheless regarded Workan among those who fell on the side of less likely to betray him.

Sashal, Ascension wrote:"While the humans of the Lost Tribe and the Keshiri are different races, no one has ever been excluded from achieving high rank if she can prove herself worthy. You yourself worked with Sarasu Taalon. It is merit, not genetics, that enables one to rise or fall in our culture."

Workan admits vast inferiority to Grand Lord Vol:

Ascension wrote:But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-

No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

However Kyp Durron at that time, per his own admission, was post-prime:

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

It's further confirmed that Exar Kun had augmented Kyp Durron's power to the point that Kyp could 'barely contain' his power and is stated to be at full power:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power.

Dark Apprentice wrote:Kyp felt his skin tingling with barely contained power,

Dark Apprentice wrote:Against the full might of Kyp Durron

Exar Kun in numerous quotes, was more powerful than Kyp Durron:

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

I, Jedi wrote:"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.

"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale. I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.

Dark Apprentice wrote:He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.

It is further confirmed that Kueller was more powerful than any student Luke had ever had, including Kyp Durron:

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy.

Yet Exar Kun's spirit was more powerful than Kueller:

New Rebellion wrote:This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power. He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

New Rebellion wrote:"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."

"Years ago, Skywalker. You've become complacent." Kueller slashed at Luke.

The spirit of Exar Kun is however, far less powerful than his living prime as his power was annihilated by a Jedi Wall of Light:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQyM8Bc78nVXD1Xe-Vz3lgsYJq-Q0I2zwU9fJ7EJhRVT00pEwP0

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 4 Images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQyM8Bc78nVXD1Xe-Vz3lgsYJq-Q0I2zwU9fJ7EJhRVT00pEwP0

This results in him requiring to draw on the temple focal points to prevent himself from being pulled into the void in such a weak state:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

And he's further stated to be nigh insane by Jedi Academy:

The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:For four thousand years he remained there, driven half mad by the unbearable isolation.

We further have confirmation that Exar Kun required restoring his lost power to resurrect, and that this entailed draining the power of the entire Jedi Academy:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun corrupted Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, and attempted to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke and the other trainees.

In other words, spirit Kun at his peak only had fed upon the power of Kyp Durron, Streen and Gantoris which is less than half of what he needed per the aforementioned sources. Simply put Exar Kun in life is far, far more powerful than as a spirit who already is much more powerful than DS Kyp Durron a stronger incarnation than the one compared to Viun Gaalan who is < Ivaar Workan << Darish Vol.

March 23rd 2020, 7:40 am

Gianfi wrote:Ok, I am changing my vote to Vol. Kun, Outlander and Vol are all impressive though, so I would be fine with either winning.

I'd implore you to reconsider given my aforementioned post.

March 23rd 2020, 7:45 am

Good posts

March 23rd 2020, 7:59 am

Have I swayed you to join the Sith Brotherhood under Exar Kun?

March 23rd 2020, 8:42 am

Ok, so to make things clear, Katarn’s and Kyp’s comparison to Viun Galaan is exclusively referring to sabers, which becomes evident once one reads the entire passage:

Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.
But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.
Luke smiled at the man.

Luke compares him to Kyp and Katarn right after examining his moves, how well he executed them and how they would have bewildered any lesser “duelist”. He even goes on to call Katarn and Kyp “expert swordmasters”, once again addressing their skills as duelists, not their power in the force. It’s completely unknown how they stack up to him as force users, though I’m inclined to believe he is at least more powerful than Katarn given his showings against the nightsisters and his ability to repel an exertion from the still-exhausted Luke.

March 23rd 2020, 9:15 am

LadyKulvax wrote:

Gianfi wrote:Ok, I am changing my vote to Vol. Kun, Outlander and Vol are all impressive though, so I would be fine with either winning.

I'd implore you to reconsider given my aforementioned post.

Mmm, before giving my final and definitive vote I will wait until the end of this debate. How many hours/days are left?

March 23rd 2020, 10:00 am

Fuck it, I vote Dooku

March 23rd 2020, 10:09 am

MasterCilghal wrote:Ok, so to make things clear, Katarn’s and Kyp’s comparison to Viun Galaan is exclusively referring to sabers, which becomes evident once one reads the entire passage:

Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.
But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.
Luke smiled at the man.

Luke compares him to Kyp and Katarn right after examining his moves, how well he executed them and how they would have bewildered any lesser “duelist”. He even goes on to call Katarn and Kyp “expert swordmasters”, once again addressing their skills as duelists, not their power in the force. It’s completely unknown how they stack up to him as force users, though I’m inclined to believe he is at least more powerful than Katarn given his showings against the nightsisters and his ability to repel an exertion from the still-exhausted Luke.

You're implying that Force augmentation isn't playing a factor in there when as in any fight, it always does. It even takes into account that the ebbing of his mental and physical strength due to Sinkhole Station would've cost him. Which has no effect on his skill only his ability to implement it and react accordingly.

Given Kyp's relativity to Luke in earlier books is pretty obvious and Kun's continued ability to scale off of him, you can see your obvious dilemma here.

March 23rd 2020, 4:14 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

For those not voting Outlander, how are you quantifying the amp Malgus would need to defeat your character? And why would it be larger than the one needed to defeat the Outlander who we can directly show is far beyond Malgus?

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March 23rd 2020, 4:23 pm

Praxis wrote:For those not voting Outlander, how are you quantifying the amp Malgus would need to defeat your character? And why would it be larger than the one needed to defeat the Outlander who we can directly show is far beyond Malgus?

Vol being in Luke's general tier, and I think that'd stand for itself, tbh.

March 23rd 2020, 4:26 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

IG wrote:Vol being in Luke's general tier, and I think that'd stand for itself, tbh.

Why would that mean the amp Malgus would need would be larger for Vol than for the Outlander?

March 23rd 2020, 4:29 pm

Praxis wrote:

IG wrote:Vol being in Luke's general tier, and I think that'd stand for itself, tbh.

Why would that mean the amp Malgus would need would be larger for Vol than for the Outlander?

If we're to appeal to general forum opinion here, Luke > Valk. Valk himself is ragdolling the Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann at once. Being close enough to someone that you're in their tier implies you're not a ragdoll gap below them.

Though if it's my personal opinion, I also have Luke > Valk, so that's why.

March 23rd 2020, 4:38 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

IG wrote:
If we're to appeal to general forum opinion here, Luke > Valk. Valk himself is ragdolling the Outlander, Vaylin, and Arcann at once. Being close enough to someone that you're in their tier implies you're not a ragdoll gap below them.

Though if it's my personal opinion, I also have Luke > Valk, so that's why.

Why is Luke > Valk?

March 23rd 2020, 4:54 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Luke just has better feats than Valk. Namely:

-More powerful than Galen per the greatest adversary/greatest Jedi quotes from DE (pre prime). Galen having TK in the million ton range.
-Completely mitigating Unuthul's TK, which is strengthened by the Force strength of trillions of killiks and can bend turbolasers
-Manipulating and moving a dovin basal, which depending on the size puts Luke's TK anywhere in the range of effortlessly swallowing turbolaser fire to pulling fleets through hyperspace to moving moons
-Contending with Abeloth several times, an entity that can melt cities with her sheer anger, without the need for any rituals, prep or even a power more advanced or specialized than TK to produce the effect

March 23rd 2020, 6:04 pm

@ILS Why are those feats better than Valkorion's?

March 23rd 2020, 6:30 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

@ILS Why are Luke's feats better than what Valk has? Can you say that they are better with absolute certainty?

To prove that Malgus would need the larger amp to beat Vol you would have to show that the Outlander is definitively inferior to Vol since the Outlander directly scales from Malgus. If you're doing that by showing Luke is superior to Valkorion through feats and that Vol is relative to Luke, therefore, placing Vol somewhere in the gap between Valkorion and the Outlander, or with Valkorion, or above Valkorion then you're forced into jumping through a lot of hoops. To prove Vol is above the Outlander using that method, you would have to prove Luke's feats put him above Valkorion and then quantify the gap between Valkorion and the Outlander and then prove that "much the power of Skywalker" would place Vol close enough to Luke that it would put him somewhere in the gap between Valkorion and the Outlander, or with Valk, or above Valk.

March 23rd 2020, 7:12 pm

Feats are obviously a metric with limits, as are all the tools we use. The closest I can think of to a direct cross era comparison to Malgus would be through Sidious supremacy. But I'm not currently inclined to pursue that.

That said, I think raw TK feats are a pretty fair measuring stick given their applicability to both combat and raw power comparisons.

What feat does Valk possess that is superior to those I listed? In the absence of a direct comparison, I'm inclined to side with the guy with better feats.

And if the only rebuttal is going to be "prove that Vol is definitely further above Malgus than the Outlander", then one can with equal ease ask you to "prove the Outlander is further above Malgus than Vol is" - sure you can quantify the intra-era gap, but that has little to do with Vol, does it?

Still, here's a fun line of inquiry. Malgus appeared to exert no small amount of effort bringing that roof down in Onslaught, a time where he can per the TOR camp give Outlander and friends a solid fight, yes? That makes his TK, compared to Luke, Abeloth and Vol, probably about a million times weaker, literally, given the above feats. Not to mention, even two of the lowest dregs of the Legacy era - Wredd and Jao Assam - shit all over that feat by hoisting a massive satellite before dropping it on hundreds of Sith. They scale hilariously below people who are weaker than even Vong-weakened Krayt, due to the fact Wredd is weaker than his own master, and Jao that of Treis Sinde and the other high ranked Imperial Knights. That scales them hilariously below Krayt's inner circle, and even more hilariously below Wyyrlok, who was inferior to Vong Krayt in TK.

Vong Krayt who is noticeably weaker than his Apoc self who compares quite favourably to Luke. This provides another baseline TK feat which Vol can hold over the Outlander and laugh with.

March 23rd 2020, 7:27 pm

anybody know the vote percentages by any chance?