Shadow Hunter Maul vs MW Revan

Fight is in Dantooine Enclave pre-destruction.

15 year old maul loosed a scream that almost toppled a gigantic structure designed to hold over 500 cadets

Kotor Revan can't enter a Krayt dragons cave because it's "too dangerous"

Well, that is early game Revan and I doubt he was as skilled as his MW incarnation at that point

> in-sidiousfailure wrote:15 year old maul loosed a scream that almost toppled a gigantic structure designed to hold over 500 cadets

Maul can’t take out 30 Tusken Raiders for fear of being overwhelmed. Maul struggles with Komari Vosa and had to resort to Juyo to get any conclusive results. Maul had to seriously ramp up his Juyo to even consider breaking through Anoon Bondara’s defence, and even then he was only planning to beat Bondara through environmental means (pinning him against a wall). The creation of Maul’s saberstaff is soaked in failure—one has him getting stomped by Wankatine, the other has him getting stomped by Siolo Ur’manka. Maul can’t deflect a wrist rocket. Maul only survives his encounter with Jinn and Kenobi because of his balance, agility and flexibility and not his bladework, per his own admission. And that’s not good enough, because Jinn himself is soaked in constant low showings and baseless hype, and a vastly superior Kenobi in the form of AOTC Kenobi is below Soara Antana, Luminara Unduli and miles below Kit Fisto. And yet, this Kenobi has enough showings and hype to support the idea that he would be able to solo TPM Kenobi and Jinn without much strain. Moral of the story, Maul is trash and don’t ever try to lowball another character when Maul is in the equation, because I guarantee his low showings are much more numerous than most characters in Star Wars.

Shall I continue?

@CuckedCurry

Maul can’t take out 30 Tusken Raiders for fear of being overwhelmed.

Quote? IIRC Maul said he didn't want to waste any time and energy killing them because he wanted to be at full strength when fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Maul struggles with Komari Vosa

While being slowed down by an injury in a novel that took place before Shadow Hunter.

and had to resort to Juyo to get any conclusive results

Which isn't circumstantial at all, nor is it unreasonable for Maul to use Juyo because Juyo is a Dark Side orientated lightsaber form, and Maul, like all Banite Sith, are encouraged by their own doctrines to actively seize on the Dark Side of the Force in combat. To say that Maul had to "resort to Juyo to get any conclusive results" is insinuating that it's unreasonable for a Sith to use Juyo.

Maul had to seriously ramp up his Juyo to even consider breaking through Anoon Bondara’s defence, and even then he was only planning to beat Bondara through environmental means (pinning him against a wall)

This has something to do with the fact that Maul was ordered by his master to carry out the task of going after Pavan and killing him, Bondara was getting in Maul's way, giving Pavan more time to get away. Maul had no time to enjoy the luxury of toying with Bondara to humiliate him, hence why he didn't fool around with him, and the same novel you're quoting says that Maul knew that he was the superior fighter.

The creation of Maul’s saberstaff is soaked in failure—one has him getting stomped by Wankatine

Who has been stated to be the most powerful Sith master who has ever lived by TPM.

the other has him getting stomped by Siolo Ur’manka

Because Siolo was significantly faster than him, and we don't even know the timeline for this comic.

Maul can’t deflect a wrist rocket.

Based on what?

Maul only survives his encounter with Jinn and Kenobi because of his balance, agility and flexibility and not his bladework

.....

"Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form VI's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII skills of Darth Maul." -- Fightsaber.



You were saying?

per his own admission

Show us where he said it, and even if he did, the in-universe musings of a character doesn't overrule out of universe statements.

And that’s not good enough, because Jinn himself is soaked in constant low showings and baseless hype, and a vastly superior Kenobi in the form of AOTC Kenobi is below Soara Antana, Luminara Unduli and miles below Kit Fisto. And yet, this Kenobi has enough showings and hype to support the idea that he would be able to solo TPM Kenobi and Jinn without much strain.

Based on what is AotC Kenobi is *vastly* superior to TPM Kenobi? What relativity does Soara Antana, Luminara Unduli and Kit Fisto have to the combined skills of TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi? Based on what does AotC Kenobi's showings and hype support the idea that he can solo TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn without much strain?

Moral of the story, Maul is trash and don’t ever try to lowball another character when Maul is in the equation, because I guarantee his low showings are much more numerous than most characters in Star Wars.

Shall I continue?

I do agree that we shouldn't use low showings to determine a character's capabilities, but all these low showings pretty crap arguments.

Latham2000 wrote:@CuckedCurry

Maul can’t take out 30 Tusken Raiders for fear of being overwhelmed.

Quote? IIRC Maul said he didn't want to waste any time and energy killing them because he wanted to be at full strength when fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Pretty much, he was more frustrated really as they were surrounding them and even then it's not like he didn't get passed them. He was also wounded at the time too.

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

- EP 1 Journal: Darth Maul

But anyway, isn't MW Revan's best feat fighting Mandalore?

I can't recall any Force feats though, wasn't he just more a background character until Kotor?

Zenwolf wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

Maul can’t take out 30 Tusken Raiders for fear of being overwhelmed.

Quote? IIRC Maul said he didn't want to waste any time and energy killing them because he wanted to be at full strength when fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Pretty much, he was more frustrated really as they were surrounding them and even then it's not like he didn't get passed them. He was also wounded at the time too.

Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

I never run away from a battle. But this one will tax me, and my strength is needed for the Jedi. If my Master hears I have been wounded, he will be furious.

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

- EP 1 Journal: Darth Maul

Thanks for citing it, I am too knackered to skim through Shadow Hunter for this statement.

Your pitiful attempts at trying to excuse all of these low showings are awfully akin to the failure of Maul himself

YoungCurry hours

Curry back at it with the lowballing. First Mace, now Maul. Where does the crusade end?! 

Spoiler:

I don’t lowball either character, especially in the case of Mace. Mace is truly one of my favourite characters in the mythos but I understand how his powers work, where he’s strong and where his talents lie. His TK is beastly but he’s just simply not as gifted with it as a Dooku, Yoda or Anakin.

Is it lowballing if it uses evidence of shitty feats or disappointing/failed attempts to perform feats?

CuckedCurry wrote:I don’t lowball either character, especially in the case of Mace. Mace is truly one of my favourite characters in the mythos but I understand how his powers work, where he’s strong and where his talents lie. His TK is beastly but he’s just simply not as gifted with it as a Dooku, Yoda or Anakin.

He's definitely as gifted with it as Dooku by late TCW, and he's around the level of Yoda by the time of ROTS. Him even being able to stand up to Sidious' power and counter it is enough proof that he can tangle with people of that level.

Geistalt wrote:Is it lowballing if it uses evidence of shitty feats or disappointing/failed attempts to perform feats?

No, it’s not. If it’s an outlier feat, for example Anakin running from a small spider droid in Labyrinth of Evil, then they shouldn’t really be considered. But with Maul, in every piece of material he’s in TPM or beforehand, he has at least 1 really low showing.

Mace being above by a lot Dooku makes no sense tbh. I have them even (Vaapad notwithstanding).

BoD wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:I don’t lowball either character, especially in the case of Mace. Mace is truly one of my favourite characters in the mythos but I understand how his powers work, where he’s strong and where his talents lie. His TK is beastly but he’s just simply not as gifted with it as a Dooku, Yoda or Anakin.

He's definitely as gifted with it as Dooku by late TCW, and he's around the level of Yoda by the time of ROTS. Him even being able to stand up to Sidious' power and counter it is enough proof that he can tangle with people of that level.

BOD, you just simply don’t understand. Let’s leave it at that.

CuckedCurry wrote:

BoD wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:I don’t lowball either character, especially in the case of Mace. Mace is truly one of my favourite characters in the mythos but I understand how his powers work, where he’s strong and where his talents lie. His TK is beastly but he’s just simply not as gifted with it as a Dooku, Yoda or Anakin.

He's definitely as gifted with it as Dooku by late TCW, and he's around the level of Yoda by the time of ROTS. Him even being able to stand up to Sidious' power and counter it is enough proof that he can tangle with people of that level.

BOD, you just simply don’t understand. Let’s leave it at that.

10/10 response.

I saw the Mace vs. Battle Droids scene this morning, and he's at least as potent as Revan (going off of Revan's army-destroying feats vs. the Echani and then the Sith; on the Star Forge, he could only take on small groups of Sith at a time). He annihilated those armies with ease.

As for the topic: 

Maul by this point is close to his TPM iteration, who held off the ridiculously hyped Qui-Gon as well as TPM Obi-Wan, with various sources suggesting the fight ranged from low difficulty to high difficulty. Revan is incredibly skilled and powerful even by this point, but Maul is a more versatile swordsman, is one of the most powerful Sith apprentices of all time, and has had access to centuries worth of collected Sith teachings to only further enhance his abilities. He should also be a better swordsman in technical skill, even by this point. 

Maul should take this in a great fight.

Geistalt wrote:I saw the Mace vs. Battle Droids scene this morning, and he's at least as potent as Revan (going off of Revan's army-destroying feats vs. the Echani and then the Sith; on the Star Forge, he could only take on small groups of Sith at a time). He annihilated those armies with ease.

Did he also almost die to a few grenades?

Who?

CuckedCurry wrote:Your pitiful attempts at trying to excuse all of these low showings are awfully akin to the failure of Maul himself

YoungCurry hours

Thanks Carthage.