Re: Count Dooku vs Exar Kun

April 27th 2019, 12:08 pm

I mean it isn't as if avoiding it via that excuse even does your argument any favours anyway. wrote:

Official canon policy isn't an excuse but rather a set of established rules which we use on this board. The novel sequences with Dooku vs Kenobi have context anyway as well.

There are quotes outright stating that he was fighting harder against Grievous than Dooku and a further quote stating he was fighting even harder than that on Mustafar. wrote:

Yeah sure but there isn't really any evidence there was a massive disparity in power/effort between these versions of Kenobi. Moreover, I've yet to actually see these quotes and I'm going to need them provided before I can make a proper judgement.

So Mustafar Kenobi is well within his range anyway. wrote:

Based on what? Given you no longer have a reliable comparison between Kenobi and Dooku it's simply impossible to gauge whether Kenobi is in Dooku's range or not even with his power growth because Kenobi hasn't proven he wouldn't get stomped by Dooku.

Which is all that is relevant given two years later he hasn't 'dulled' at all. wrote:

The quote in question is specifically pertaining to Kenobi's reflexes. In terms of actual combat it is noted Kenobi hadn't used his Lightsaber in combat for 2 years and given it's listed alongside a slew of things which put Kenobi at a disadvantage/Hett at an advantage we can logically infer it's factor in Kenobi's duel with Hett. Plus, I'm not entirely sure as to the validity of Hett being ~ Kenobi in the first place.

So yes, Krayt scaling well beyond Kenobi is still just as telling as before. wrote:

... Great? You don't have a comparison with Dooku so your scaling chain essentially falls flat before it can even start up.

In fact, I might say the scaling has gotten even worse for Tyranus given the aforementioned affirmations regarding Kenobi. wrote:

I like how you're trying to act as though me debunking the premise your scaling chain is based on somehow works in your favour. It's honestly hilarious. This entire post can basically be summed up with one wonderful gif:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11135/111357112/6906910-changing+the+goalpost+gif+%281%29.gif

April 27th 2019, 1:06 pm

Yeah except your 'official canon policy' gag is about as concrete an argument as Freedon_Nadd arguing Nihilus is a Force god, above all others.

The novelisations have been used for years, they will continue to be used for years, nothing you say is going to prevent them from being used either. Here's what you don't seem to grasp, unless there is any reason to believe that Kenobi is incapable of doing this against Dooku in the film -there isn't- then the display can still be used as a measure to determine how they actually fair against one another instead of eyeballing the fight and leaving it down to interpretation.

This is no different than ending the argument regarding whether or not Sheev threw the Windu duel or just straight up lost. The movie lends credence to either interpretation. So we look at versions of the fight with non-partial descriptions of who was actually winning.

Yes, as literally everybody here already knew before you started making the argument, the movies in the previous edition of the holocron database continuity were the gospel. That doesn't render the novelisations invalid in terms of getting a guage for otherwise interpretable events.

So yes, the Kenobi stuff still counts, whether you and your wall of text there likes it or not. What's worse is that the tier system created by George Lucas places Obi-Wan Kenobi as a tier 8 alongside Dooku. So your 'debunk' was more like putting a band-aid on a gun-shot wound. Insider 147 also says Kenobi was going harder in the Grievous fight than he was against Dooku, and then there's this:

Revenge of the Sith Play and Sound, Interactive novel wrote:Anakin and Obi Wan fight fiercely through the control room on Mustafar. They each tap into the Force as they never have before.

The idea that Kenobi can't give Dooku a hard fight is horrifically bad, given my scaling is predicated on Kenobi even just giving him a decent fight, nevermind better, then it still works.

April 27th 2019, 1:07 pm

Arkham, you first have to prove that there is any big disparity between them at the start

April 27th 2019, 1:09 pm

Yeah, and wasn't Muur>Krayt debunked?

April 27th 2019, 1:12 pm

They attempted it, they failed all the same. Muur > Krayt, Cade, Maladi, Shado, Azlyn, Reign simultaneously.

April 27th 2019, 1:14 pm

@LadyKulvax

That Gillard argument is a bit disingenuous. There's levels inside the tiers, as Gillard himself explained. Someone like Dooku or Windu are going to dumpster TPM Maul, even though they're all 8's.

The Kenobi/Grievous quote is kinda irrelevant considering Kenobi barely fights Dooku at all on the IH. He fights with Ataru, then surprises Dooku with Soresu for a tad, then gets thrown around like a ragdoll and made unconcious for the rest of the duel.

April 27th 2019, 1:16 pm

Nothing personal, but I think I'll see some arguments/evidence first. What's the counter to ILS's blog?

April 27th 2019, 1:20 pm

Nah, he moves so fast that Dooku can't, at first, see him. Then he doesn't dare attack him because his bladework is so quick and Dooku doesn't even immediately realise that Kenobi is using Soresu until seconds later. Dooku doesn't even think he can break Kenobi's defense.

So yeah, there's that.

April 27th 2019, 1:35 pm

LOTL wrote:Nothing personal, but I think I'll see some arguments/evidence first. What's the counter to ILS's blog?

Well their main argument is that Krayt's physical deterioration negates his growth in power spanning 110 years. Which on the previous page I showed is an insane argument to attempt to make.

Then they tried to argue that Muur isn't actually more powerful than Krayt. Even though Muur is demonstratably capable of taking out Krayt, Cade, Maladi, Shado Vao, Azlyn Rae and Gasser Reign simultaneously with the Force. As well as putting Krayt on the backfoot in a lightsaber duel.

The mistake they make is that I'm arguing Muur is as powerful as peak Darth Krayt. I'm not. Because even a wounded Krayt is magnitudes stronger than he was as a Tusken raider against Obi-Wan Kenobi.

That's not even entertaining the argument of Muur >> Spirit!Muur.

April 27th 2019, 1:56 pm

Really not familiar with the material but I'll bite

Well their main argument is that Krayt's physical deterioration negates his growth in power spanning 110 years. Which on the previous page I showed is an insane argument to attempt to make.

And? By the looks of that, the guy was half dead. Even GM Luke needs but one tiny excuse like any small injury for his power to go from DE Sidious level to Saesee Tiin level. Kit Fisto had a heel injury and he became inferior to Ventress

You know, despite Kit>Kenobi>>Ventress

But more appropriately, Starkiller had never felt so exhausted, and he was then inferior to Vader. That is despite Starkiller at normal being above Oneness Galen who was approaching Sidious level

That is apparently nothing compared to what was happening to Krayt. So despite his power growth, it is entirely possible for that version of Krayt to be inferior to Jedi Hett at the temple, never mind dark side Hett

Then they tried to argue that Muur isn't actually more powerful than Krayt. Even though Muur is demonstratably capable of taking out Krayt, Cade, Maladi, Shado Vao, Azlyn Rae and Gasser Reign simultaneously with the Force. As well as putting Krayt on the backfoot in a lightsaber duel.

That doesn't counter ILS's blog. He already addressed all this

The mistake they make is that I'm arguing Muur is as powerful as peak Darth Krayt. I'm not. Because even a wounded Krayt is magnitudes stronger than he was as a Tusken raider against Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I am going to show you a pattern

Kenobi vs Dooku-Kenobi admits that he wasn't trying to kill Dooku, loses

Kenobi vs Hett-Kenobi admits that he wasn't trying to kill Hett, stalemates and is extremely hard pressed

Kenobi vs Grevious-Kenobi is obviously trying to kill him, wins easily

Kenobi vs Vader-He tries to kill him after losing his attachment, wins

Kenobi vs Hett-Realizes that he has to unleash his power else Luke's life is at stake, the next instant, Hett's arm is away from his body and his lightsaber is literally torn from his grip

You need any more indication?

There is no way to compare in which case Kenobi was exerted more, against Dooku or Hett, vs how he had degenerated, and how Hett had the environmental advantage Too ambiguous as a comparison.

April 27th 2019, 2:11 pm

Out of respect for Azronger, I'm not going to tread on an argument he's already making in his current SS. Instead, I'll merely quote it:

Azronger wrote:Ben required absolute focus while fighting Hett, and any distracting thoughts “would probably only get him killed.” Hett also scored several unarmed strikes in Kenobi, and the ones Ben did block, “he wasn't doing so with ease.” As to the sometimes-tossed-around notion that Ben won as he soon as reminded himself he was fighting for Luke, warriors’ motivations circulate around their brain constantly. Just because he happened to think of Luke at that particular instant doesn't mean he wasn't serious prior. The text even notes it was “fortunate” Ben wasn’t out of practice, indicating that someone noticeably beneath RotS Kenobi’s level would have lost to Hett; had he been toying with Hett and capable of stomping him, him retaining his former prowess would have been completely irrelevant rather than “fortunate.” Kenobi was giving this duel his all, and that’s that.

But no, ILS's blog wasn't really up to snuff. Too many leaps in judgement are made. This is like arguing ROTJ/DE Palps were suffering immense physical dark side degradation. Thus they are bumped down to being TPM Palpatine tier.

Krayt himself states he is stronger at that point, for crying out loud.

April 27th 2019, 2:39 pm

That is not a complete argument, not when considering the lore but since this is his debate, I'll not comment. In fact, addressing that addresses half the problems in the lore. Planning on doing it against Arkham later

April 27th 2019, 10:28 pm

LOTL wrote:Arkham, you first have to prove that there is any big disparity between them at the start

Why exactly do I have to prove there is a big disparity between them? AP's chain is based around them being close and naturally if that premise is false then AP's chain falls apart and we can't conclude whether Dooku is massively more powerful than Kenobi or not so we're forced to turn to actual feats comparisons and I'm sure you'll agree that in that area Dooku is above Kun. I'm willing to provide actual arguments for Dooku in due course but for now I'm just enjoying debunking AP's claims and watching it squirm.

April 27th 2019, 10:40 pm

You haven't debunked a damn thing. Kun's feats utterly dump on Dooku's. Dooku's best available argument is not being completely humiliated by Yoda. Kun as a spirit is already competing with, and defeating, better than Dooku. There's no way this argument ends with you winning.

April 27th 2019, 11:50 pm

@LadyKulvax

Yeah except your 'official canon policy' gag is about as concrete an argument as Freedon_Nadd arguing Nihilus is a Force god, above all others. wrote:

So now your argument is that claims I have backed up with quotes are as concrete as Nadd failing to back up his argument that Nihilus is a Force God...

Yeah, no. The two aren't remotely similar and now you've resorted to petty jabs and appealing to what has been for years without addressing my arguments.

The novelizations have been used for years, they will continue to be used for years, nothing you say is going to prevent them from being used either. wrote:

So now you've resorted to ignoring my arguments...? Great. It's always nice to know I'm discussing things with a brick wall.

Here's what you don't seem to grasp, unless there is any reason to believe that Kenobi is incapable of doing this against Dooku in the film -there isn't- then the display can still be used as a measure to determine how they actually fair against one another instead of eyeballing the fight and leaving it down to interpretation. wrote:

I mean if you use the film and other sources Dooku "easily/effortlessly" holds off the duo's original onslaught, uses TK to remove Kenobi from the fight twice while dealing with Anakin and also displayed a sizeable edge in Force reserves when he was able to drag Kenobi's blade up against his will without too much difficulty (keep in mind Kenobi is considerably younger than Dooku so this shows a sizeable disparity in physical augmentation which lends credence to the idea that Doku is considerably more powerful than Kenobi).

Also as much as you would try to argue otherwise non-canon events are still non-canon and cannot be used under any circumstances. This includes the ROTS Novel's depiction of Kenobi stonewalling Dooku.

This is no different than ending the argument regarding whether or not Sheev threw the Windu duel or just straight up lost. The movie lends credence to either interpretation. So we look at versions of the fight with non-partial descriptions of who was actually winning. wrote:

So your argument is that movie choreography isn't an accurate measure to gauge who was winning. While I somewhat agree I have to say that in the fight on the IH Dooku is displayed as blatantly superior to the duo prior to Anakin getting rage amped and was also depicted as better than Kenobi by the film. Moreover, I never said we should disregard novelizations entirely, in fact, I've repeatedly used the Junior Novelization to prove Dooku was better than the duo as it actually follows the duel as portrayed in the movie rather than its own version of the fight (like the Senior Novelization does).

Yes, as literally everybody here already knew before you started making the argument, the movies in the previous edition of the holocron database continuity were the gospel. That doesn't render the novelisations invalid in terms of getting a guage for otherwise interpretable events. wrote:

Once again your strawmanning me. I never said we should ignore the novels. Instead, I pointed out that when they differ so far from the movie they should be disregarded and in this case the SN depicts an almost entirely different fight from the movie. Once again I've used the JN to support my arguments about the IH duel in previous discussions and have used the adult novel to support my arguments regarding Dooku vs Yoda in AOTC.

So yes, the Kenobi stuff still counts, whether you and your wall of text there likes it or not. wrote:

This level of delusion is unreal.

What's worse is that the tier system created by George Lucas places Obi-Wan Kenobi as a tier 8 alongside Dooku. wrote:

For starters, Gillard clarifies there can be massive gaps even between characters even if they are on the same tier. Secondly, we have the fact that the tiering system wasn't created by GL. The only quote which suggests such is a Homing Beacon saying Lucas and Gillard were working on a tiering system (never specified GL completed the system) but the context of the quote was only TPM. By ROTS it's clear Lucas had stepped down from the project given Gillard says he was the one developing the upper levels.

So your 'debunk' was more like putting a band-aid on a gun-shot wound. wrote:

Amusing.

Insider 147 also says Kenobi was going harder in the Grievous fight than he was against Dooku, and then there's this: wrote:

The fact that Insider 147 says he fought better against Grievous doesn't mean there's a massive disparity between the Kenobi that fought Dooku and the Kenobi that fought Grievous. And once again I'd like to see the quote.

For the Mustafar quote once again there's no evidence of a glaring disparity between Mustafar Kenobi and start of ROTS Kenobi just that there is a gap between them.

The idea that Kenobi can't give Dooku a hard fight is horrifically bad, given my scaling is predicated on Kenobi even just giving him a decent fight, nevermind better, then it still works. wrote:

Once again there's no evidence that Kenobi can even give Dooku a decent fight much less a good one. If you want evidence Dooku can stomp Kenobi just see his fight with Yoda in AOTC and his superiority to LS Anakin+Kenobi on the IH.

April 28th 2019, 3:14 am

@ArkhamAsylum3

He seamed to be "at ease" according to the JN in the beginning portion. Once the duel ramps up the duo slowly gain the advantage:

"Despite the Count's confidence, the two Jedi forced him slowly backward. When the super droids got in the way, they cut them down. At last they reached the first set of stairs on the balcony." - JN

And he was tired meaning he wasn't doing it effortlessly; just in the very beginning. Two sources other than the SN definitely showing Dooku isn't superior to the duo.

Yeah Dooku dragged Kenobi's arm when he overextended and didn't have much leverage, but it doesn't change the fact Kenobi stonewalled him effortlessly and moved at a speed that dazzled his perceptions - the movie cuts to Palpatine just before Dooku forced push him so you can't say it contradicts the choreography.

I'm sure the greatest defensive master in the order can "hold strong and parry brilliantly" for 40 seconds.

April 28th 2019, 3:21 am

@ArkhamAsylum3

What's a greater reflection of continuity?

A.) A junior novelization fight created based on an author's interpretation of the visuals of the movie.
B.) A adult novelization fight created based on conversations and line-edits from George Lucas.

Matthew Stover wrote: I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone. Period.

Regardless if the events in the adult novelization do not perfectly match the film, the overall portrayal of power-levels and character thoughts (e.g. "Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber") are supposed to perfectly reflect Lucas' own vision.

April 28th 2019, 3:29 am

The question is to what point we contextualise the sources, and at what point does the movie/script necessarily override the Novelisation.

April 28th 2019, 3:34 am

@Meatpants: The "absolute canon" version of events is as depicted in the film, but that doesn't discount the adult novelization from being the go-to source for Lucas' thoughts on the dynamic between Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan. As Stover stated, everything in the adult novelization is there because Lucas wanted it there.

April 28th 2019, 3:38 am

@DarthAnt66

Of course, I'm not arguing with you here. It's just an interesting dynamic that can be difficult to reconcile.

April 28th 2019, 3:40 am

@Meatpants: I think the best way to go about it is to interpret the film choreography within the context of the power-relations demonstrated in the adult novelization, and to defer to the adult novelization in cases where the film choreography is vague or absent (e.g. how Obi-Wan fares against Dooku alone).

April 28th 2019, 3:58 am

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Meatpants: I think the best way to go about it is to interpret the film choreography within the context of the power-relations demonstrated in the adult novelization, and to defer to the adult novelization in cases where the film choreography is vague or absent (e.g. how Obi-Wan fares against Dooku alone).

April 28th 2019, 9:56 am

Precisely what I've been saying.

April 28th 2019, 1:40 pm

LOTL wrote:. Kit Fisto had a heel injury and he became inferior to Ventress

This 'heel injury' is described as a singe; "It snapped back on swiftly enough to singe Kit's left heel as the Nautolan jumped free."

Singe; burn (something) superficially or lightly.

This is a superficial burn, likely not even severe enough to hinder a non-force sensitive, let alone a Jedi like Fisto.

LOTL wrote:.You know, despite Kit>Kenobi>>Ventress

Asajj is undoubtedly above Fisto, who is proven to be >(>) Kenobi earlier in the novel.

April 28th 2019, 1:44 pm

@Jake

It's so funny how a superficial light injury took him from decisively better to stomp level for Ventress. Must have been a pretty bad light burn.