Count Dooku vs Caedus

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Caedus has the higher highs but also the lower lows. Issue is, I'm not sure Caedus' higher highs are much higher than Dooku on a good day.

Dooku is vastly more consistent, and has consistent feats and hype to back that up. Caedus is too much of a wildcard, so I'm with Ant on this one.

Caedus in a decent fight.

Dooku.

@ArkhamAsylum3 Raisins?

Dooku's combat feats strike me as more impressive than Caedus' overall. Even if Caedus is more powerful (Dooku is monstrously powerful) I'm not yet convinced it's by such a margin that it would exceed Dooku's greater applicable skill. Willing to hear a case either way.

Literally seen nothing from Caedus that would impress me honestly. Very curious what "higher highs" he has over the Count. @darthant66, you know the character well; mind elaborating a bit?

^ I too would like to know what makes Caedus so scary compared to Dooku.

I'd favor Caedus here. He tends to scale to the level of his opponent. Ultimately he has proven stronger than Dooku at his best.

@Azronger @ILS @QuiGonDies If you're looking for combative feats Caedus managed to eventually overpower the Jedi strike team that assaulted him in Fury while suffering from previous injuries (Note that he's not fully recovered until the end of the book which is about a week after the duel, which in itself only occurs several days after the injuries took place). Said strike team, while comprised mostly of fodder did have Kyle Katarn (Who's likely a Vader tier combatant/force wielder based off scaling) and were noted to be coordinating seamlessly. Caedus also held the upper hand in his final duel with Jaina despite suffering from a crushed ankle, a shattered kneecap, a wounded shoulder, a hole in his gut and only one arm. He also has his duel against Luke (Which given the circumstances is hard to quantify or compare to most lightsaber engagements but is still impressive regardless).

As far as telekinesis goes he's managed to hold the Falcon together while it was enduring atmospheric re-entry with a damaged drive which was ripping the ship apart (The Falcon is 35m in length IIRC) without even being present at the time but using Leia as a way to project his TK. For deflection, he's managed to shield a vehicle against an explosion that heavily damaged every building within a 200m radius. As far as other telekinetic showings go he's manhandled both Jaina and Saba fairly casually 1V1 with TK, the former while under the aforementioned critical injuries.  

In regards to other impressive demonstrations of power, he's been able to locate specific people on Fondor, a massive planet with  billions of inhabitants and fool them with illusions despite enduring a backlash of negative emotion from the hundreds aboard his Star Destroyer that was blocking his senses and weakening his force powers to the point where he was later caught off guard and overpowered by a fodder Mando. I'll leave it at that for now.

@DC77

Dooku throwing a 215m Sith Cruiser with ease is honestly a better showing of power than anything I've seen Caedus accomplish. In terms of combative feats, Dooku outduelling Anakin+Obi-Wan in ROTS also eclipses anything I've seen from Caedus.

@ArkhamAsylum3

Dooku throwing a 215m Sith Cruiser with ease is honestly a better showing of power than anything I've seen Caedus accomplish.

A) The cruisers could have been much shorter lengths. It's not set in stone that he threw a 215m Cruiser and we can't just assume he did the most impressive rendition of the feat possible.

B) He was amped by a nexus.

C) Caedus's Falcon feat is arguably just as good.

In terms of combative feats, Dooku outduelling Anakin+Obi-Wan in ROTS also eclipses anything I've seen from Caedus.

There's not much in the way of irrefutable proof that he did anything other than stalemate them prior to Anakin using the DS. Furthermore Caedus defeating Katarn+Strike Team while suffering from pretty horrible injuries is arguably just as good (While the fodder are obviously not even comparable to either of the duo I'm willing to bet Kyle is better than either Kenobi or LS Anakin, furthermore Caedus was suffering from horrible injuries when fighting against the team yet still actually won, unlike Dooku).

Lean Caedus, but would be interesting to hear arguments for Dooku.

I’d say Caedus, but Dooku is going to make him work for it.

DC77 wrote:If you're looking for combative feats Caedus managed to eventually overpower the Jedi strike team that assaulted him in Fury while suffering from previous injuries (Note that he's not fully recovered until the end of the book which is about a week after the duel, which in itself only occurs several days after the injuries took place). Said strike team, while comprised mostly of fodder did have Kyle Katarn (Who's likely a Vader tier combatant/force wielder based off scaling) and were noted to be coordinating seamlessly. Caedus also held the upper hand in his final duel with Jaina despite suffering from a crushed ankle, a shattered kneecap, a wounded shoulder, a hole in his gut and only one arm. He also has his duel against Luke (Which given the circumstances is hard to quantify or compare to most lightsaber engagements but is still impressive regardless).

So, for one, I don't think as a dueling feat beating that strike team is even better than something like Grievous' battle against Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr (a point I think Ziggy raised a long time ago). What evidence is there that Kyle is similar to Vader in power?

I'm not aware of any reason to think trouncing Jaina is beyond Dooku's paygrade given his track record against people like Ventress, Kenobi and Anakin. I maintain my stance that Luke for all intents and purposes ended that fight with Jacen in a handful of blows (or whatever the exact number was), and that a combination of Caedus' resourcefulness and use of the environment (opposed to sheer power and skill) is what prolonged what should have been a stomp into a messy brawl.

DC77 wrote:As far as telekinesis goes he's managed to hold the Falcon together while it was enduring atmospheric re-entry with a damaged drive which was ripping the ship apart (The Falcon is 35m in length IIRC) without even being present at the time but using Leia as a way to project his TK. For deflection, he's managed to shield a vehicle against an explosion that heavily damaged every building within a 200m radius. As far as other telekinetic showings go he's manhandled both Jaina and Saba fairly casually 1V1 with TK, the former while under the aforementioned critical injuries.

Dooku has tooled Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress with TK all of whom are the beneficiaries of TK feats that rival what you set out for Caedus. I get that measuring TK feats is nebulous at the best of times but I don't see any particular reason to favour Caedus over Dooku here.

DC77 wrote:In regards to other impressive demonstrations of power, he's been able to locate specific people on Fondor, a massive planet with  billions of inhabitants and fool them with illusions despite enduring a backlash of negative emotion from the hundreds aboard his Star Destroyer that was blocking his senses and weakening his force powers to the point where he was later caught off guard and overpowered by a fodder Mando. I'll leave it at that for now.

Jacen's feats with illusions/sense do indicate a great deal of raw power on his end, and given his dedication as a warrior I don't see why he couldn't channel that same power to that end. My question is, how do we quantify the power he used in these illusion/sense feats in a way that's meaningful and more importantly, relevant to fighting Dooku? How do we know Jacen isn't disproportionately skilled with some of what I'll dub the "softer" Force powers compared to simple TK, lightning and dueling? If you can answer these questions you may be onto something.

@ILS

So, for one, I don't think as a dueling feat beating that strike team is even better than something like Grievous' battle against Mundi, Ti, Secura, K'Kruhk and Tarr Seirr (a point I think Ziggy raised a long time ago). What evidence is there that Kyle is similar to Vader in power?

The Jedi were exhausted when they engaged with Grievous and Caedus was badly injured when he engaged the strike team, there's not much in the way of a worthwhile comparison between the two (Ignoring that Katarn himself is likely above the entire team of exhausted Jedi based off his parity with Vader). In regards to Kyle's parity with Vader, Jerec has explicitly been noted to have powers that rival those of Vader yet his force blasts are incapable of doing anything of note to Katarn when he only had minimal training and was a few decades off his prime. While noob Kyle and Jerec may not be peers they're close enough that I think it's reaching to assert Jerec would be above Kyle several decades of power growth later. This would, by extension place Kyle in the Vader range.

I'm not aware of any reason to think trouncing Jaina is beyond Dooku's paygrade given his track record against people like Ventress, Kenobi and Anakin.

To be entirely honest I doubt Dooku's capable of replicating Caedus's performance against Jaina if put in the same situation, Caedus was basically a walking corpse yet still holding the noticeable edge. Even accounting for the disparity between Jaina and the aforementioned individuals those feats aren't enough to suggest he can replicate it given Caedus's condition.

I maintain my stance that Luke for all intents and purposes ended that fight with Jacen in a handful of blows (or whatever the exact number was), and that a combination of Caedus' resourcefulness and use of the environment (opposed to sheer power and skill) is what prolonged what should have been a stomp into a messy brawl.

I don't disagree with the aforementioned, I do however think the performance is noteworthy, given Caedus is able to land a hit on Luke and survive his initial attempt at a blitz despite being caught off guard before he resorts to utilising the environment. I doubt Dooku would do as well as Caedus did in the opening exchange.

Dooku has tooled Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress with TK all of whom are the beneficiaries of TK feats that rival what you set out for Caedus. I get that measuring TK feats is nebulous at the best of times but I don't see any particular reason to favour Caedus over Dooku here.

Feats such as?

Jacen's feats with illusions/sense do indicate a great deal of raw power on his end, and given his dedication as a warrior I don't see why he couldn't channel that same power to that end. My question is, how do we quantify the power he used in these illusion/sense feats in a way that's meaningful and more importantly, relevant to fighting Dooku? How do we know Jacen isn't disproportionately skilled with some of what I'll dub the "softer" Force powers compared to simple TK, lightning and dueling? If you can answer these questions you may be onto something.

Caedus has repeatedly been stated to have mastered the force in its entirety, there's no reason to assume he's disproportionately skilled with some abilities and shite with others. Furthermore Caedus only uses illusions as a desperate tactic when he's exhausted every other resource at his disposal in combat and is utterly overpowered (His fights against Mara and the fodder Mando come to mind) which is illogical if it's his most potent ability. Why doesn't he simply abuse illusions in combat right off the bat if he's disproportionately skilled with them?

BTW, sorry if this response is s**t, my head is spinning and I'm tired as hell.

DC77 wrote:The Jedi were exhausted when they engaged with Grievous and Caedus was badly injured when he engaged the strike team, there's not much in the way of a worthwhile comparison between the two (Ignoring that Katarn himself is likely above the entire team of exhausted Jedi based off his parity with Vader). In regards to Kyle's parity with Vader, Jerec has explicitly been noted to have powers that rival those of Vader yet his force blasts are incapable of doing anything of note to Katarn when he only had minimal training and was a few decades off his prime. While noob Kyle and Jerec may not be peers they're close enough that I think it's reaching to assert Jerec would be above Kyle several decades of power growth later. This would, by extension place Kyle in the Vader range.

Grievous also implemented tactics that focused heavily on fear, surprise, intimidation and unpredictability to hold an edge. That said, they were "exhausted", but they are also Jedi who can spar intensely for hours at a time - they clearly had enough energy to summon for the fight itself... that's self-evident. And unconventional tactics only go so far. Grievous stood in the middle of five of them without missing a beat. He tore them apart one by one in dominating fashion and, unlike Caedus, he not only lacked offensive TK, he lacked any kind of defence against it.

As for Caedus' injuries - as a baseline, anything that causes pain can be seized on as fuel by a Sith of Caedus' calibre, he's in fact a foremost expert at this. To the extent that he could physically be less than fresh but when he draws on the pain for energy he's actually more powerful than usual. So I'd need some kind of proof that Caedus' injuries made a huge difference to the outcome of the fight one way or another before I factor them in.

But again, perhaps most damning of all is that:

1. Grievous' strike team was just better, composed of 2 council masters, 1 of the most skilled Jedi swordfighters in Aayla, K'Kruhk who has his own considerable feats and accolades, and one random, opposed to Kyle and three randoms.

2. Grievous beat them in a more dominant fashion and without any help from TK.

3. This is just Grievous we are talking about... not Dooku, who has never lost to Grievous and is his clear superior. Grievous learnt everything he knows from Dooku.

Regarding Kyle... I don't believe taking a hit from a Vader tier is grounds to say Kyle went on to become a Vader tier later in life. Why would that be the case?

DC77 wrote:To be entirely honest I doubt Dooku's capable of replicating Caedus's performance against Jaina if put in the same situation, Caedus was basically a walking corpse yet still holding the noticeable edge. Even accounting for the disparity between Jaina and the aforementioned individuals those feats aren't enough to suggest he can replicate it given Caedus's condition.

Not that we've really seen it from Dooku, but it could well be true that Caedus is better at sustaining himself through grievous injuries than Dooku, because he has more Force reserves. But that doesn't automatically mean that when they are both fresh he is also superior, because there are factors outside of just raw power/reserves that come into play, such as skill.

And using his skill, Dooku has on two occasions trounced late clone wars Kenobi, bullied Anakin with TK and not only completely embarrassed Ventress, but even proved superior to her and Savage combined.

DC77 wrote:I don't disagree with the aforementioned, I do however think the performance is noteworthy, given Caedus is able to land a hit on Luke and survive his initial attempt at a blitz despite being caught off guard before he resorts to utilising the environment. I doubt Dooku would do as well as Caedus did in the opening exchange.

Dooku lasted 40 seconds against Yoda. Why am I supposed to believe he would lose to Luke in five blows?

DC77 wrote:Feats such as?

OCW Anakin and TFU scaling say hello. Obi-Wan has feats like creating a giant cresting wave of water with TK, knocking over two gargantuan trees while rooting himself to a nose-diving ship, turning the explosive and blaster no-selling Durge into pulp, and so on.

DC77 wrote:Caedus has repeatedly been stated to have mastered the force in its entirety, there's no reason to assume he's disproportionately skilled with some abilities and shite with others. Furthermore Caedus only uses illusions as a desperate tactic when he's exhausted every other resource at his disposal in combat and is utterly overpowered (His fights against Mara and the fodder Mando come to mind) which is illogical if it's his most potent ability. Why doesn't he simply abuse illusions in combat right off the bat if he's disproportionately skilled with them?

If Caedus' best feats aren't with illusions, then I imagine you would be using those feats instead. But here you are, using his feats with illusions as some of the primary evidence for why he's stronger than Dooku. If his best feats are with illusions it implies that it's among one of his strongest powers. Why he doesn't use it in every fight doesn't really negate my point as there could be any number of perfectly valid reasons why he chooses not to.

I'd be fine with bringing in illusions and the like to pimp Caedus' standing, providing you can make it combat applicable. If you can prove lightsaber/tk/lightning combat is Caedus' primary strength or even that he's equally skilled with illusions as he is those, you have something, but otherwise it's not very quantifiable.

DC77 wrote:BTW, sorry if this response is s**t, my head is spinning and I'm tired as hell.

Sleep, and rejuvenate your energies.

Caedus definitely

@DC77

A) The cruisers could have been much shorter lengths. It's not set in stone that he threw a 215m Cruiser and we can't just assume he did the most impressive rendition of the feat possible. wrote:

Ancient Sith ships can range in size from 45m to 75m to 215m. Now we know the cruiser Dooku threw was obviously bigger than the other ships in the hanger. I'm inclined to believe the other ships in the hall were 75m given the size of their engines was "immense" and the ships themselves were stated to be "hulking wrecks". Both of these quotes indicate they were pretty massive and I don't think a regular 45m Starfighter with a 1 man crew would be described in such a way. So logically if we conclude the smaller ships are 75m then the bigger Cruiser has to be 215m. Also, even if you want to take the feat at its lowest and say the other ships in the hangar were 45m then the cruiser is 75m which is still imo better than anything Caedus has accomplished. So, however, you look at it the feat is still pretty good.

B) He was amped by a nexus. wrote:

Korriban's potency as a nexus was already fading as of early PoD and IIRC there are quotes saying its potency decreased further all the way up until ROTS meaning the nexus isn't particularly relevant to the feat and he should most certainly be able to perform it off nexus especially given the fact that this was while he was pre-prime and his powers increased "noticeably" throughout TCW.

C) Caedus's Falcon feat is arguably just as good. wrote:

It really isn't. The Falcon is significantly smaller than the ship Dooku threw like a football whether it's 75m or 215m. Moreover, Caedus didn't actually throw the ship like, Dooku did. He just held it together. Also, I don't have the passage on hand but did Caedus perform the feat effortlessly or with strain?

There's not much in the way of irrefutable proof that he did anything other than stalemate them prior to Anakin using the DS. wrote:

Yes, there is. He was stated to have held them off "effortlessly" held them off at the start of the fight, manages to TK Kenobi, dodge a strike from a rage amped Skywalker without even paying attention to him and later floors rage amped Anakin with a kick (Anakin stays down for like 5 or so seconds) simultaneously using TK to incap Kenobi while incredibly tired. Overall it's clear he's decisively superior to the duo when they're at base and perhaps even superior when Anakin gets angry (though it's clear at the end of the duel when Anakin finally unleashes his full strength Dooku is inferior to him).

Furthermore Caedus defeating Katarn+Strike Team while suffering from pretty horrible injuries is arguably just as good (While the fodder are obviously not even comparable to either of the duo I'm willing to bet Kyle is better than either Kenobi or LS Anakin, furthermore Caedus was suffering from horrible injuries when fighting against the team yet still actually won, unlike Dooku). wrote:

You're going to need to substantiate why Caedus's injuries were a major factor despite his ability to amp himself off pain and you're also going to have to substantiate why Kyle is > either member of the Kenobi+Anakin duo. Moreover, even if he is better than either member of the duo it shouldn't be to a significant degree and the rest of the fodder are not at all comparable to either member of the duo leaving you with essentially an unfavourable comparison given Dooku is significantly superior to the duo (the fact that he lost to a mega-enraged Anakin while utterly exhausted who would no doubt beat Caedus is irrelevant) whereas Caedus isn't significantly superior to the strike team based on the fact that he was described as fighting as a near equal to them by an objective 3rd party source.

@DeadlyJedi

Reasons?

Gotta go with Dooku

I imagine this would have a lot to do with the mentality of the force user with greater power but lesser training, as we have seen in other examples before. It would probably be a lot like Anakin vs Dooku, only a slightly weaker Anakin but having a slightly stronger mentality.

Leaning Caedus to have the majority

@ArkhamAsylum3 Caedus held his own against GM Luke for a good amount of time. Completely stomped Kyle Katarn with the aid of other jedi.
Driving Jaina Solo back with only arm. Defeated Mara Jade. He is Confirmed to have surpassed Vader in power. It also helps that he comes from a very powerful lineage.
I think I am more impressed with him.
I see Caedus overwhelming Dooku with his strength in the same way Anakin did.
Dooku absolutely puts up one hell of a fight though.

Yeah, because giving Yoda "all the practice he needs" and then experiencing huge growth after that totally isn't as impressive/better.