Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

January 1st 2020, 1:21 pm

tf is this,well hands to the table i dunno if this can end now very well

January 1st 2020, 1:23 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

January 1st 2020, 1:24 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:

January 1st 2020, 4:19 pm

ill admit, not my best work lol

January 1st 2020, 4:49 pm

You are doing good, keep it up.

January 1st 2020, 5:09 pm

@The lord of hunger: Please do not quote entire debate posts in your response.

January 1st 2020, 5:23 pm

January 1st 2020, 6:00 pm

bro, i told u that already lol

anyhow, i finished the post. Sorry, i was out. Le museum.

January 1st 2020, 6:55 pm

Well now that the post is finally complete i could Say that is better now that it would supposed to really great points

January 1st 2020, 7:05 pm

..what did u just say there?

i hope im doing well on this tbh. idk what to focus on sometimes. i always thought it wouldve been better if we compared feats and scaling, instead of discussing each other's character.

January 18th 2020, 9:09 am

lorenzo wrote:Says the guy who doenst know when Roan Shryne died (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Roan_Shryne ). Anyhow, the Pall is OBVIOUSLY speaking of the past. About the first time they saw the map, about how their powers were only strong cuz of the map itself, etc. He literally talks about the start of his career as a dark sider. "Only we would know" is in past tense. He doenst even remember, meaning that he cannot possibly be speaking of the present. He is reliving memories. He also tells him what will happen, just like what happened to him in the past (which I assume is that he will be turned to the dark side, just like Pall was). He literally says that it was from long ago, meaning that he is 100% speaking of the past lol.

"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."

First off, Wookieepedia articles are unusable in an actual debate. Furthermore, on the page titled “18 BBY”, Roan Shryne’s death is noted nowhere. You need to actually prove it ends in 18 BBY, not give me a fan-made article.

Now on towards Pall. This happened 3000 years after his death, his spirit speaking to Revan during KOTOR. He’s literally describing that the power of the map (at the time of his demise nonetheless) was “blinding”. He isn’t reliving memories, nor doing any of what you described. You’re speculating entirely, the Star Map being > Prime Exiles still stands. This is Revan during KOTOR, he doesn’t turn to the dark, don’t try to refute something you don’t know anything about. Furthermore, the Infinite Empire constructed the Star Maps and the Star Forge by infusing self-repairing ancient technology with dark side energies. However, the Star Forge was much larger (https://i.imgur.com/3Yr9pQX.jpg), it was semi-sentient, and a far more powerful dark side nexus compared to the Star Maps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD9n_Lh4L2E&t=2m0s). Nonetheless, the Exiles used the dark side energies of the Korriban Star Map as their central source of power. Ajunta Pall himself says here, “We were not the first to fall to the dark side, but we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere," stated that the Star Map were ”where our power came from," revealed they were "our old secret”. There’s nothing here that says anything about how this was them when they were younger. The clear intent here is to establish Malak >>>> the Exiles, something that is irrefutable, as your Noob Exile nonsense is conjecture, nothing more.

lorenzo wrote:And I never disregarded your Kun scaling lol If you wanted statements of power, Vader has plenty, but I dont even know if Ill actually need them for now. And you have yet again not told me how the Star Forge is so far above the maps.

"Malak >> SF >>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur still stands."

That becomes:

Malak >> SF >> Star Map > Noobs Exiles (when they first found/used the Maps, vastly pre prime) >> Noob Pall (when he first fond/used the Maps, vastly pre prime) > Noob Muur (when he first found/used the Maps, vastly pre prime)

Okay, so first off, I’ve already explained why the maps are vastly inferior to the forge. A single map was literally > the collective exiles. Malak and Revan weren’t corrupted by the maps, the Exiles were. By logic, the Forge is more powerful than an individual map, and the Exiles were weaker than the single map. To contrast, Revan and Malak weren’t corrupted by the map, the Exiles were. They are weaker than the map, and Malak is incredibly stronger, given that he mastered the forge and brought it to 300% efficiency.

According to a Rakatan computer, “The Star Maps were built on conquered worlds as a symbol of Rakatan dominance and glory. Each map showed the whole expanse of the Infinite Empire, with the Star Forge at the center. When the Empire fell, the Rakata fled back here to their homeworld. They sabotaged the Star Maps so the enslaved species could not use them to discover the Star Forge or this planet.”, meaning that the maps were heavily weakened at the time that the Exiles found them, and they repaired themselves (regained their power) over time, meaning that they were more powerful when Revan and Co found them.

The Maps were literally just put on conquered worlds as a “symbol of Rakatan dominance and glory”, they did nothing to the Rakatans, whereas the Star Forge is directly responsible for the destruction of the empire. Furthermore, with basic logic, we can tell that the Forge is way more powerful than the Maps because if the maps were anywhere near the forge in power, we’d have planets like Tatooine, Kashyyyk, Manaan, etc being incredibly strong DS nexuses, which they aren’t, whereas the Forge literally creates a nexus so powerful that it doesn’t only surround the forge but also extends to nearby Lehon.

lorenzo wrote:As for your Kreia/ Avellone things, first things first, she is CLEARLY speaking of drain there, and not power. Nihilus has better showings of drain than even Palpatine i believe, but i doubt you Nihilus above Palpatine in power. Secondly, the Avellone part comes from when she speaks of lightsaber dueling, so what he confirms is that ancient sith were better duelists, and not that they were in fact better with drain. Oh, and Vader is said by Avellone to be capable of beating Nihilus anyhow lol So now we have your iffy statement not talking about power, which is also not even confirmed to be true in the first, or my statement, also from Avellone, saying that Vader would beat Nihilus anyhow? I think mine is more impressive.

https://twitter.com/chrisavellone/status/1056378721790132224?lang=bg

Cool for Nihilus. Now Vader is even MORE powerful than her too.

Wow... this scaling chain. Ive already debunked your statement of power up above, but somehow, you put Nihilus below Ludo Kressh. Now that... is amazing to see. Sheesh.

Avellone’s twitter responses about who would win in a fight between two characters (one of whom he has nothing to do with as well) has no bearing on canon whatsoever. I’m using his clarification of the material he’s created, in which he’s claimed that Kreia is right. Furthermore, you’d have to prove Traya was referring to his drain, she specifically uses the term “power” multiple times. Furthermore, I doubt you read said tweet, but Avellone also says that Revan would “wreck them both”, implying that Malak (who is extraordinary close to the Revan in question in terms of power) would be able to defeat Vader. You either have to throw this bit of evidence out, or concede that KOTOR Revan “wrecks” Vader. Furthermore, the quote I linked has Kreia saying that she fears Nihilus may be “approaching” the power of the ancients, it has nothing to do with duelling whatsoever. Avellone confirms Kreia’s prediction (Nihilus < Ancients), and Kressh numbers among the ancients, therefore he wins. A random twitter comment of Avellone’s retcons nothing. He confirmed that Nihilus < Ancients in an interview, he was clarifying the comments of a character and how it impacts the story. Only George Lucas, Chee, etc have authority in terms of their spoken word.

lorenzo wrote:I have yet to see this quote about her being average. Could you post it please? I already implied/stated that Muur was likely far stronger than her as well. IDK why you are reiterating this.

As for your statement about the prime of the jedi, Lucas says the same about the PT era, making your quotes useless. Vader fights Jedi above your average Jedi all the time, who already stronger than the average OR Jedi in the first place.

Lucas says the PT is a “golden age” for the Jedi, not its prime. Golden Age =/= Prime. Furthermore, Celeste is the average knight of her time per Duursema, as Duursema states, “A decent Jedi in her [Celeste’s] time, she was thrust into an unenviable situation”. I used the term average as a synonym because it got the point across more so than “decent” does.

So we still have : Malak >>>> Exiles >> Pall > Muur > Vong Krayt >> Hett < Kenobi >>> Ben > Vader < ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader.

lorenzo wrote:I dont mind proving your point (specially if its true), simply because you cant even prove that dying, half powered Krayt is actually stronger than Hett in the first place. He DID grow massively in power, i cant deny that, but healthy, full powered, far above Hett =/= Dying, Vong infested body, diverted powers Krayt. He is, in fact, massively weaker, making the power difference between him and Hett nigh existent, if not weaker than Hett.

I dont understand what you are saying here. You say that Dooku had more technical skill, but skill with a blade also depends on strength in the force, even though Anakin is far above Dooku in that regard. As for Hett and Obi Wan, i never said he couldnt give him a good sex. What i did say is Obi Wan did in fact beat him decisively. You can say what you want or what you think, that still seems to be the case to me. Make a good argument on it, and ill tell if you changed my point of view or not.

You’d have to prove Krayt was weaker than Hett. His growth is ludicrous, and he’s Dying and Vong infested throughout all of Legacy. There’s no point in claiming otherwise. Assuming we accounted for his dying self, we still have Muur > Hett, and Malak scales so astronomically above this that it’s ludicrous. Hindered MFV was capable of being >> his AOTC iteration, and he’d only had 3 years to grow, whereas Krayt had over 100.

On the Dooku thing, I’m literally saying that his technical skill is greater on the grounds that he’s literally a better swordsman in terms of technique. Strength with the force affects augmentation (which is shown through strength and speed augmented), but it doesn’t mean anything in terms of technical skill. Kenobi gets hit by Hett a few times, and there’s nothing showing a decisive loss. Kenobi is furthermore amped by his need to protect Luke, as well as the fact that Hett held an advantage in the duel till Kenobi blows his arm off. He’s inferior, but not by that large a margin.

lorenzo wrote:Anakin stomping Dooku wasnt simply due to skill- it had power and speed to it as well. The difference is skill between the two is not huge at all, in my opinion. Anakin is simply more skilled, faster, and stronger, and yet, Dooku could still somewhat hold his own, while his strength in the force is honestly, nothing when compared to Anakin's. Skill is not necessarily equal to how strong one is in the force. Sidious is stronger in the force than Yoda, and yet Yoda outdueled him. Same for Kas'im and Bane. Bane was much stronger in the force than Kas'im, and while it did give him an advantage, he had to be at his best, mentally and physically, while using the force to control his movements to actually out duel Kas'im, who could still hold his own, and semi stomped Bane once he got his second saber out.

That thing says that Obi Wan is 50% stronger than Vader. I dont know if you knew this, but that would make Old Obi Wan stronger than Sidious, who is only 20% stronger than Vader, who only a supposed 80% of Sidious' powers. Chee can have all the authority he wants, by the way, but not a single other piece of media says that Obi Wan was his superior by that much, or his superior at all. Thats an easy 15 or more iterations of the fight that contradict what he says in that tweet. I do wonder what the priority here is, though. Something Chee funnily left out is that Ben was fighting to win, and yet, he couldnt, so i think its better for you to keep your story straight, when we have Vader being on the offensive the whole time, even though Ben was supposedly stronger and trying to beat him. How does that work? Something else is that Obi Wan himself says that Vader had gotten stronger and more skilled since their duel on Mustafar, even during the movie, i believe, who already stronger than prime Kenobi, so like, whats its gonna be Star Wars lol

The numbers don’t mean anything, lmao, they’re just to show that Kenobi > Vader. Lucas backs it up, Chee backs it up, and C-Canon sources mean jackshit against G-Canon.

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 3 W9__ZescJT77lAr5xhY1mBRFk3QANRDwGh8XuY8tPX7S90owCmBucCfP29dy7e9sncMSAAt1Alj45On7aol05ixaWo6k_6cfjUYM8f7dT7UaA29uu_KixqlOfctUnALFAchH0lNE

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 3 W9__ZescJT77lAr5xhY1mBRFk3QANRDwGh8XuY8tPX7S90owCmBucCfP29dy7e9sncMSAAt1Alj45On7aol05ixaWo6k_6cfjUYM8f7dT7UaA29uu_KixqlOfctUnALFAchH0lNE

That’s another source claiming Obi Wan gave up the fight, and Chee and Lucas back up the idea that Kenobi > Vader. MFV was hindered to the point of insanity, and the idea that Vader is anywhere as strong as previous iterations of himself (pre-suit ones) is contradicted by Lucas:

George Lucas, Cult of Darth Vader wrote:And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

The last sentence isn’t claiming that Vader ~ Dooku, but that he was a weak tool to the emperor. In terms of raw power, MFV (the last iteration of pre-suit Vader) is at the level of Sidious, but he’s too hindered to appropriately use this we have sources claiming that Ben > Vader (that transcend all C-Canon sources) and sources that show he threw the fight. There’s no reason not to believe that Ben > Vader Nar wanking Vader and butthurt. Therefore Vader is still stuck beneath Ben and therefore, ROTS kenobi.

Lorenzo wrote:As for Vader being utterly stomped by enraged Luke, lucky me that BOD is working on a blog for that, because one can clearly tell that you know nothing about the circumstances surrounding that fight. Not only is Vader getting closer and closer to being Anakin again as the fight goes on (stated by guess who? Luke during the fight itself. Go watch the movie), Luke gets angrier and angrier, drawing on the dark side more and more. Not only that, Luke's base was already stronger than Obi Wan ever was (which i also already stated and proved). I could post the possible amps that Palpatine couldve/wouldve likely given to Luke during that fight (about 4 of them, i think), since he did, very much so, want Luke to win, but Ill leave that out for now.

And like i previously said, Ben being a 6, and Vader being a 4 makes Ben stronger than Sidious per simple math lol it also means that ANH Luke has around 40% of Sidious' power, which is also not the case. Dont rely on statements from Lucas too much, is what ill say for now.

I posted the link to Roan's death up above, first thing i did, i believe.

The numbers are irrelevant, it’s establishing that per Lucas, Ben > Vader. I don’t give a fuck if BoD is writing a blog, this is an SS between you and I, not BoD and I. Luke in fact, is an equal to Vader per numerous sources, so all of your points are irrelevant. You’ve not substantiated anything here, and Palpatine amping Luke is utter conjecture.

Stop using the numbers as referring to percentage, they’re only establishing Ben > Vader, something backed up by the manager of continuity himself (someone with infinitely more authority than a DK children’s book). Also, per this debate’s rules, we’re going by LFL Licensing, where Lucas’ statements (and by extension, story group statements) are canon. Claiming that I shouldn’t “rely on statements from Lucas” is a concession. Wookieepedia articles are not usable in a debate as an actual source, and Vader fought Morne after Shryne, so you’ve lost this point (yet again).

Lorenzo wrote:No, thats not what i said, but nice twist of my words there. I said that Proxy could have been convincingly more skilled than Ben, and he still got stomped by Vader, after Vader was caught off guard, and after he was obviously mentally f*cuked by Obi Wan's face.

Man, that Gillard scale. I can never find anything funnier than that. If said tiers were so obviously far apart from each, Anakin wouldve destroyed Obi Wan in about 10 seconds, or Kit Fisto wouldve never blocked Sidious's blades, or Dooku wouldnt have defended himself for so long, on two different fights, against Yoda, who went for the kill on both fights. Actually, let me ask you a serious question. Anakin is a lower level of 9 than either Yoda or Sidious, but since you like to believe that even within the tiers, the skill gap is so huge, do you honestly believe that Sidious or Yoda could believably stomp Anakin? Or that Anakin could stomp Mace Windu? Is that how you really see this?

I love how you add little details to things which i have already proven to be false in that scaling chain, but ok lol

So you have no evidence? Good to know. Proxy isn’t somehow magically more skilled than Kenobi, that’s conjecture, idiocy, and most of all, a demonstration of your lack of skill as a debater.

Furthermore, a gap in tiers doesn’t imply a speedblitz, and Anakin was hindered on Mustafar, as per Gillard he was “consumed” by his “rage” and he hadn’t “mastered the mental side of fighting” yet. As a result, he wasn’t able to properly channel his force abilities. KFV has shown an ability to annihilate several characters at a high level, and Mace is noted as a tier 9 by Gillard, so that’s irrelevant.

Lorenzo wrote:First things first, i cannot read a single one of those. Idk if im just blind, or if the text is too small, or if the quality isnt too good, but i still cant see it. In any case, that fight was made to satisfy fans. How do you think fans wouldve reacted if they ended it with Vader force choking him? throwing his saber at Maul's head? Collapsing the ceiling on him? Him struggling against Maul like goes against his other dueling feats against people with just as much hype as Qui Gon. Vader beating people like Roan Shryne (his hype is around AOTC Obi Wan level, his power and strength is said to be extreme, and he is a master of the lightsaber) while mentally hindered (the whole novel points out the fact that before he kills Roan, he is still unsure about, well, everything. If he is Anakin or Vader, if he should trust God or not, if he made the right decisions, if he could regain his powers, etc), Anya Kuro (whom Mara Jade herself couldnt beat) solidly, who could fight against Hett, without much trouble (before he was a dark sider), fighting Galen Marek AND Starkiller, groups of jedi masters, etc all pre prime prime, go against him losing to Maul that badly. Secondly, Maul is not stated to be more powerful than Vader in that comic, ever. Not even his equal. In fact, i believe that there is one point in that comic in which is winning agaisnt Maul, and only starts to lose once he cut Maul's saber in two, giving him a new blade to work with. He beat Vader using an advantage that Vader couldnt even replicate lol then you complain about cheapshots.

And yes, humans are fodders, technically speaking. You dont even have a timeframe for that feat. And anti feats for Vader?? Oh no!! Im doomed. Bring me a feat as good as casually ripping information, while weakened, from a force user's mind stronger than prime Obi Wan, who resisted the whole time, from Malak. Vader's TP powers >>>> Obi Wan+ level telepathy resistance. Kun dominating the minds of humans, without even a timeframe, is not as impressive as that.

Except he dominated said “fodder” for long enough for him to stomp Vodo and ragdoll Sylvar. This was on such a massive scale that Vader cannot compare to. An’ya Kuro is fodder (Hand Mara has jackshit), Shryne has no hype on the level of AOTC Kenobi, instead he’s just part of a group of people that spar together.

Disappointing the fans is something that I don’t care about. From a purely lore and intent perspective, Maul defeats Vader. Jar Kai’ing isn’t an advantage, as by that logic you could say that Ventress had an unfair advantage against (everybody). Maul literally is about to kill Vader before Vader cheapshots him in the back, lmfao.

Surface level thoughts are easy to reveal, and I want a meticulous citation for every single claim you’ve made there. It’s baseless and stupid. Luke has been noted as “not that good of a Jedi”, and Vader’s TP isn’t anywhere near the level of Kenobi, as he’s weaker than an inferior iteration of Kenobi (Ben). Vader has nothing on the level of dominating the Star Forge or scaling vastly above Kun, who can TP dominate at least tens of thousands of people.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

So to reiterate here:

Malak is vastly more powerful than a host of individuals that scale relative (if not above) to Vader.
None of your arguments stand whatsoever
Vader has nothing of note that you've shown
G-Canon sources stating Ben > Vader hold infinitely more weight than C-Canon ones saying the opposite.

@lorenzo.r.2nd Just thought I should mention, but your conclusion can only have rebuttals, no new arguments.

January 18th 2020, 1:43 pm

Straight to the point-

Ur whole argument is based upon the idea Darth Vader is weaker than Be Kenobi, and because Lucas and Chee said so (even if the reason was a a literal shortage in money), u will never concede to the idea that said concept is bullshit. No matter how many statements I post that directly, indirectly, or even imply the opposite, u will never let go of that (there are about 6 direct ones, and maybe 3 indirect ones, if im not mistaken, and 2 implied ones, at least).

U say i cannot use the exemplary numbers that Lucas/Chee gave because they were that, exemplary, so no counter i make will be correct to u (no surprise there).

I am legitimately surprised that u believe that Ben Kenobi is stronger than Krayt 17 years after their fight (in which Krayt grew massively, as u pointed out, while Ben did nothing to grow, and only got rustier as time passed, as u also pointed), Gethzerion, Joruus, Sedriss, and Starkiller.

Simply put, i quit. Yeah, i really do. Im climbing an infinite hill, which ironically enough, has Ben Kenobi always above me, holding the high ground, and u inside his pants, hyping him up even more. A word u guys love using- yo concedo (Spanish class paying off right there)

January 18th 2020, 1:58 pm

make it larger yo no derailing the thread but the post is really small

January 18th 2020, 2:01 pm

Concession Accepted

January 18th 2020, 2:12 pm

so.... whats next.....

January 18th 2020, 2:15 pm

@The lord of hunger Nothing, I win by concession.

January 18th 2020, 2:19 pm

Good thread

January 20th 2020, 1:18 pm Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

@lorenzo.r.2nd: Sorry for the flame on your thread. @NotAA3 has been temporarily banned for his comments. The moderator staff are reviewing possible further action.