SS - Ulic Qel-Droma (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Maul (Lorenzo)

Sith Lord & Warlord Ulic Qel-Droma as of Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War #5
Darth Maul as of Son of Dathomir

Rules:

- Lucasfilm Licensing Policy is strictly adhered to, including but not limited to both IU and OOU statements not binding post-publishing date.
- There will be 3 posts per side - of at most 5,000 characters each - and a maximum of 1 week per post in which to respond.

LOBENZO.

Lol Ulic annihilates

Ulic Qel-Droma faces Master Thon and Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, as well as Jedi Knights Nomi Sunrider, Cay Qel-Droma, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Oss Wilum, Shoaneb Culu, Dace Diath and Qrrrl Toq:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Meanwhile, Ulic Qel-Droma's role was more strategic, utilizing the Krath military on an all-out assault on Coruscant in the hope of usurping the power of government. Loyal Jedi, including NOMI SUNRIDER, CAY QEL-DROMA, TOTT DONEETA, and Masters VODO-SIOSK BAAS and THON join forces to drive back this threat. The force of light surrounded Ulic, who was caught and his forces repelled.

It is stated outright that the battle is a 'stand-off', until the Jedi unite their powers:



Indeed, it's clear that the Jedi uniting their powers via Wall of Light, are the only thing capable of stopping him:



Ulic's ability to stalemate the team is a feat utterly beyond the likes of Maul, given these Jedi compare favorably to TPM Maul himself:

Darth Maul:



The Jedi in said strike team:







Even Ulic as of The Freedon Nadd Uprising is stronger than TPM Darth Maul:




And Ulic Qel-Droma, after being severed from the Force, is still better than Darth Maul as of TPM:




Ulic Qel-Droma at the height of his Sith powers, doesn't have statistics, but he does have being more powerful even than himself as of his feat against the strike team. Thus given this ability, it's no wonder that Ulic Qel-Droma's so incredibly powerful.

Indeed, in Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game, we get a superweapon created by the dark alchemy of Naga Sadow. This thing was stopped by Ulic himself, using nothing but his own power and his lightsaber:



Mace Windu notes the dark side of the Force growing more powerful to such a degree he can sense it, due to the Dark Reaper being restored.

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"Anakin, I sense the dark side growing in power, Dooku must be close to completing his work on the Dark Reaper. You need to find the Sith temple and destroy it before Dooku gets the Reaper operational."

Both he and Yoda agree, that the Republic will lose the war in the event that it is completed:

Mace Windu & Master Yoda, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"If Dooku restores the Dark Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic."

"Stop him, we must."

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"If Dooku gets the Dark Reaper operational, we won't stand a chance of winning this war."

Mace Windu, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"The fate of the Republic rests on this battle."

The weapon is so powerful that it can instantly kill Obi-Wan Kenobi and anyone else:

Anakin Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: The Clone Wars wrote:"Don't bother Master, anyone who comes near the Reaper will be killed instantly."

To stop this weapon from winning the war, Anakin Skywalker learns how to harness the power of the Force through a technique that borders on the dark side of the Force, taught to him by Ulic, which makes him permanently more powerful than he can imagine, a month after facing Count Dooku:

The Official Star Wars Fact File #107 wrote:The ancient Jedi Master warned that the knowledge he would pass to Anakin would let him resist the effects of the Force-stripping Harvester and the Dark Reaper it activated, but would perhaps give him too much power.

The Official Star Wars Fact File #107 wrote:Although the knowledge given to Anakin allowed him to destroy the Dark Reaper, Obi-Wan was uncomfortable with the power that his Padawan now wielded.

Ulic Qel-Droma, Star Wars: The Clone Wars Video Game wrote:"Yes, I can teach you to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effects for a short time."

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Prima Official Strategy Guide wrote:Follow the advice of Ulic Qel-Droma throughout this fight and you grow more powerful than you can imagine.

So the power required to resist the power of the Dark Reaper for a 'short time' is more than Anakin can even imagine harnessing before, which includes any point beforehand, such as when he fought against Darth Tyranus in Attack of the Clones, who is a near equal to Yoda. Noting that Ulic stopped the Dark Reaper personally, whereas Anakin stopped the Dark Reaper by using a tank.

Yet, this is merely a weapon created by the dark alchemy of Naga Sadow, who is considerably lower on the pecking order of the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun.

This makes Ulic Qel-Droma more powerful than the legendary Marka Ragnos, who even as a mere spirit, was able to fog the minds of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma simultaneously and 'forced' them to wage war by twisting their minds, when they fought for the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith:



Exar Kun had already far surpassed the spirit of Freedon Nadd, by the time of his stalemate with Ulic Qel-Droma for the mantle of Dark Lord:

Tales of the Jedi - Dark Lords of the Sith Audio Drama CD#2 wrote:"I sense one great power has fallen and another has risen in its place."

Freedon Nadd was more powerful than a living Naga Sadow, prior to a century of growing his power:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side.

The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4 Codex Entry: Part 3 wrote:And just as Nadd killed his lord Sadow, Kun destroyed Nadd’s spirit here on Yavin 4. These notable deaths likely served to further imbue the moon’s temples with dark power, further fueling the barbaric Massassi–as well as the succession of Dark Lords who would later reside here.

Simply put:

-Ulic Qel-Droma scales far above Darth Maul by way of cross-era comparisons, either single-handedly in non-prime states or by being equal to a strike team that has members individually above or equal to Maul.
-The Dark Reaper campaign clearly shows that Ulic Qel-Droma is extremely powerful even by the standards of the Clone Wars.
-Whilst you can argue Son of Dathomir Maul surpassed his state in The Phantom Menace, there's no evidence supporting the idea that Maul grew so much he reached an Anakin peaking over his Darth Tyranus duel, and there's no feat he has that compares to Ulic drawing a strike team of extremely powerful Jedi.

Noting of course, that none of what I have presented thus far, has anything to do with prime Sith Lord Ulic Qel-Droma before his degeneration on Ossus.

Ulic Qel-Droma is vastly beyond Darth Maul in power, and will take him to school so badly, he would wish he was facing Darth Sidious again.

u couldve at least waited to use stats later. this man loaded his gun with 3 bullets, and fired on the spot. didnt even wait for the full mag, holy shit. sheesh

Part 1: Counter

This was purely made to counter your post, so please wait for 2 before you post, which will then talk about Maul.

Stats: Eh, this is still giving me some trouble, but quite honestly, it is no different from any source you could've posted in favor of the Jedi and Ulic. Then again, I don't know why I would bother. The first two don't imply that a fight, much less a battle happened between them. In fact, both sources go straight into "Ulic was mini WOLd, gg ez" right after it's said that they get together to face the threat of Ulic AND HIS ARMY (which you somehow forgot existed). The fight being called a stand off is also quite interesting, when Ulic is seemingly pretty easily disarmed by the group as a whole. See, "stand off" implies that they were so equal, neither could've won. Meanwhile, we see Ulic being semi instantly disarmed, with the same source saying that Ulic couldn't win that fight.

Ulic =/= Jedi strike team. More like, Jedi strike steam > Ulic, by possibly a greater amount, considering how the fight went in the comic. The stats are a nice comparison between Ulic and Maul (as of TPM), but not much else right now.

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"Mace Windu notes the dark side of the Force growing more powerful to such a degree he can sense it, due to the Dark Reaper being restored."

Meaning that if fully restored, it would've made the dark side of the force even stronger? So, an even bigger amp for Ulic? Vjun Dooku 2.0

"Don't bother Master, anyone who comes near the Reaper will be killed instantly."

...Due it's draining properties, yes. Unless you would like to argue that that thing kills people simply by them getting close to it, period. Meanwhile characters like Exar Kun, DE Sidious, and who not else, who scale far above this roller coaster ride, can't do this, regardless of this vastly superior power? It's clearly due to its drain.

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Anakin's amp, while quite impressive, is somewhat meaningless. He gained an amp, astounding. What does this have to do with Ulic? He somehow scales over that due to it being a technique he also knows? Ancient Sith knew many of DE Sidious's techniques, and vice versa, and he learned said techniques from the ancients themselves (their holocrons or texts), but somehow, Naga Sadow, due to knowing about, and knowing how a force storm works, is now on Sidious' level? Mind you, Ulic is a light sider now, and a spirit. He is not weaker than when he was alive- more likely, its the opposite. He might just be 'far more powerful than you could ever imagine'. The technique he gave to Anakin might've had the same effect it had on Anakin, when Ulic used it on himself. In fact, this might just be the case. How could he know how powerful the technique would make someone, unless he tried it before? And I very much doubt the idea that Ulic decided to give it out to someone else when he was alive,
either as a forceless 'good guy' or when he was on Kun's side, hoarding power and killing his brother. It's a powerful technique after all. Why not use it on himself? Seems quite obvious to me.

Nothing implies that Sith Lord Ulic was more powerful than Anakin. Matter of fact, it's a technique to make one more powerful. It may very well not be reflective of how powerful they normally were.

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"Yet, this is merely a weapon created by the dark alchemy of Naga Sadow, who is considerably lower on the pecking order of the ancient Dark Lords of the Sith:"

I am legitimately curious as to why this matters at all? The creator somehow makes a difference now? I wasn't aware of this fact. I guess a lightsaber made by Sidious is also far, far more powerful than one made by Freedon Nadd as well? Id like to mention the Star Forge here for a moment, which was made by the Rakatans. Individually, they were never noted to be more than a race of well trained force users (I assume something around your average Jedi level of force sensitivity, since any weaker than that can get you killed), and yet, they managed to construct possibly the most powerful dark side machination ever. Their ability to use the force was significantly sub par compared to what Sadow knew and could do. Incomparably so (the Rakatans themselves taught the early Sith race much of what they knew, and what tools they had. This is 20000 years later, full of selective breeding for stronger force users, and accumulation of powers and teaching and skills). Not like basic alchemy could make significantly hax amulets and tools, but oh well, am I right? This is just Sadow, who had about 3 centuries to make his UFO. Possibly the 2nd or 3rd best alchemist in history by this point in time, after Nadd and Kun (who was good because of Nadd and Sadow, by the way lol).

Onto that quote though:
"By the time he was finally defeated, Ulic Qel-Droma had become a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, second only to his partner Exar Kun."

Id like to know how and why this includes all Dark Lords of the Sith? I've seen this quote before, as u know, but I never mentioned my thoughts on it before either. The quote is very vaguely worded, to be honest. His standing in the universe never gives him the respect of a Dark Lord of a caliber greater than Marka's for example. In fact, I would be greatly surprised if Ulic is ever portrayed in the same light as Ragnos ever was. Ragnos was being treated by Luke as a someone whose presence required the entire Jedi order of the time as a whole to be defeated. Ulic, meanwhile, loses to a 5 or so Jedi strike team. The man has seemingly less accolades and namedrops than Nadd (often worse in quality too). Sadow, on the other hand, completely obliterates Ulic in this aspect. In the end, I highly doubt this means that he is somehow above them, much less the strongest of them all (Ragnos). The man getting disarmed by Siosk Bass is not equal to the man who can utterly stomp Naga Sadow.

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Next we have "Exar Kun had already far surpassed the spirit of Freedon Nadd, by the time of his stalemate with Ulic Qel-Droma for the mantle of Dark Lord:"- The first quote simply says none of this, it says that he is the most powerful of the dark siders that rose during his time, which is, well, duh? it almost supports the idea that Kun is now equal to Sadow lol. The second quote can be ignored. The third quote as well. Most of these do the same job of telling me that Exar Kun grew in power, which is, well, ok, great? That "Official Starships and Vehicles" somehow conveniently ignores the fact that Kun has a technique meant to kill spirits, but alright. We both know that he didnt just TK Nadd into dust (he couldn't have done so even if he tried), but it is what it is. "I sense one great power has fallen and another has risen in its place." So this tells me that Nadd was killed off. Then it tells me that Exar Kun came around. Amazing.

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"Freedon Nadd was more powerful than a living Naga Sadow, prior to a century of growing his power:" ...Why am I not surprised that the first two quotes u posted for this don't support your comment at all... Anyhow:

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side." --> So Nadd was Jedi who turned to the dark side, and was Sadow's apprentice, former ruler of the ancient Sith empire. Sadow was kinda strong, etc etc. Don't see any pre prime Nadd >> Sadow quote here, to be honest with you. And I don't wear glasses, so...

"And just as Nadd killed his lord Sadow, Kun destroyed Nadd’s spirit here on Yavin 4. These notable deaths likely served to further imbue the moon’s temples with dark power, further fueling the barbaric Massassi–as well as the succession of Dark Lords who would later reside here." --> Hmm, so Nadd killed Sadow huh. Didn't see that coming. Damn. More surprised than when I learned that Santa Claus wasn't real. What I WAS waiting for, though, was a statement saying Nadd >> Sadow, but I don't see one here. Next quote, for now.

Not gonna lie to you, I actually expected actual proof for this comment in that last source you posted, but it seems to be worse than the previous two. Holy moly.

In case you wish to post another one of those Spanish sources that actually support this, go right ahead. I speak Spanish after all.

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"Simply put:

-Ulic Qel-Droma scales far above Darth Maul by way of cross-era comparisons, either single-handedly in non-prime states or by being equal to a strike team that has members individually above or equal to Maul. By all means impressive. You have just proven that Ulic is now much stronger than TPM Kenobi, great. Thank God I have part 2 to help my sorry ass out, otherwise I'd be in real trouble.
-The Dark Reaper campaign clearly shows that Ulic Qel-Droma is extremely powerful even by the standards of the Clone Wars. I guess like, just 'no'? Yeah, 'no' does it.
-Whilst you can argue Son of Dathomir Maul surpassed his state in The Phantom Menace, there's no evidence supporting the idea that Maul grew so much he reached an Anakin peaking over his Darth Tyranus duel, and there's no feat he has that compares to Ulic drawing a strike team of extremely powerful Jedi. Well, no. I have already proven that the whole Anakin/Dark Reaper/Spirit Ulic shit is pretty useless here. It does not make Sith Lord Ulic more powerful than Anakin. It means that they have the same technique that lets them 'become too powerful'. It means that they fought against the Dark Reaper, and that they both won, though through different means. And Ulic did not equal the strike team after all, so I don't know why you decided to mention this. As for Maul growing in power and proof of it- surely you jest?

Noting of course, that none of what I have presented thus far, has anything to do with prime Sith Lord Ulic Qel-Droma before his degeneration on Ossus. From what I can tell, you might need him.

Ulic Qel-Droma is vastly beyond Darth Maul in power, and will take him to school so badly, he would wish he was facing Darth Sidious again. Facing the most powerful Sith Lord in history? Exar Kun's superior? Whom he momentarily overpowered? Who was playing around with Savage? Who was physically as strong as Anakin and Obi Wan put together? I think you may have mistaken Sidious with Plagueis though. You know, Ulic's OTHER superior? "

Part 2 coming soon to all theaters near you.

As Lorenzo has failed to reply for five times the allotted time limit, I'll put my counter out and then this debate is over.

LadyKulvax wrote:As Lorenzo has failed to reply for five times the allotted time limit, I'll put my counter out and then this debate is over.

I told u, informed u, that I would be too busy, and that I would answer at some point or another, when I had time. I, in fact, specifically told u that I needed more time than the 'allotted time', so I'm not sure why u even made this comment. There is literally no reason for u to rush me either. Unless this is somehow mentally pressing u subconsciously? Does it haunt your nightmares somehow? Afraid of my post huh. I understand. Please, post ur unnecessary counter to half of my first post, if you cannot hold yourself any longer. I will even give u the w, if u want it that badly. After all, what win is more valid than a technical one, instead of a hard fought, 'show of superiority', battle of wits?

Part 1: Counter

This was purely made to counter your post, so please wait for 2 before you post, which will then talk about Maul.

Stats: Eh, this is still giving me some trouble, but quite honestly, it is no different from any source you could've posted in favor of the Jedi and Ulic. Then again, I don't know why I would bother. The first two don't imply that a fight, much less a battle happened between them. In fact, both sources go straight into "Ulic was mini WOLd, gg ez" right after it's said that they get together to face the threat of Ulic AND HIS ARMY (which you somehow forgot existed). The fight being called a stand off is also quite interesting, when Ulic is seemingly pretty easily disarmed by the group as a whole. See, "stand off" implies that they were so equal, neither could've won. Meanwhile, we see Ulic being semi instantly disarmed, with the same source saying that Ulic couldn't win that fight.

Ulic =/= Jedi strike team. More like, Jedi strike steam > Ulic, by possibly a greater amount, considering how the fight went in the comic. The stats are a nice comparison between Ulic and Maul (as of TPM), but not much else right now.

1.You've not replied at all in a meaningful way to the stat comparisons, so I'm assuming a concession here as you seem to want to dismiss this under a 'SOD > TPM' paradigm. Your funeral.

2.I'm not sure how you can plausibly fail to understand how the WOL succeeding is not evidence against my sources. They literally take this into account, as to why he can't win. A stand-off is a draw or stalemate, and this is clearly talking in the manner of combat. In other words, in an actual battle they are even but with the wall of light a factor he can't win, which is no surprise given how massive of an ace card that is in general.

I don't know why you're talking about an army. They beat the army and then surround Ulic in the comic. The entire point of Aleema's betrayal is that she orders a withdrawal of the army, leaving Ulic behind so she can take his place as Exar Kun's Sith Apprentice.

In other words, none of what you have said matters.

"Mace Windu notes the dark side of the Force growing more powerful to such a degree he can sense it, due to the Dark Reaper being restored."

Meaning that if fully restored, it would've made the dark side of the force even stronger? So, an even bigger amp for Ulic? Vjun Dooku 2.0

"Don't bother Master, anyone who comes near the Reaper will be killed instantly."

...Due it's draining properties, yes. Unless you would like to argue that that thing kills people simply by them getting close to it, period. Meanwhile characters like Exar Kun, DE Sidious, and who not else, who scale far above this roller coaster ride, can't do this, regardless of this vastly superior power? It's clearly due to its drain.

1.I don't see in what way this is even relevant, yes the Reaper made the dark side stronger in the Force and would have continued to do so.

2.The point being that the power you output to counteract the Reaper's effects has to be strong enough to withstand the drain in the first place. Yes, this is a portion of this factor of my argument. Thanks?

Anakin's amp, while quite impressive, is somewhat meaningless. He gained an amp, astounding. What does this have to do with Ulic? He somehow scales over that due to it being a technique he also knows? Ancient Sith knew many of DE Sidious's techniques, and vice versa, and he learned said techniques from the ancients themselves (their holocrons or texts), but somehow, Naga Sadow, due to knowing about, and knowing how a force storm works, is now on Sidious' level? Mind you, Ulic is a light sider now, and a spirit. He is not weaker than when he was alive- more likely, its the opposite. He might just be 'far more powerful than you could ever imagine'. The technique he gave to Anakin might've had the same effect it had on Anakin, when Ulic used it on himself. In fact, this might just be the case. How could he know how powerful the technique would make someone, unless he tried it before? And I very much doubt the idea that Ulic decided to give it out to someone else when he was alive,
either as a forceless 'good guy' or when he was on Kun's side, hoarding power and killing his brother. It's a powerful technique after all. Why not use it on himself? Seems quite obvious to me.

Nothing implies that Sith Lord Ulic was more powerful than Anakin. Matter of fact, it's a technique to make one more powerful. It may very well not be reflective of how powerful they normally were.

1.The point is that the amp isn't an amp, it's a means of harnessing the Force in a different way that permanently makes you stronger as you use it.

2.Ulic is capable of and uses the technique to defeat the Dark Reaper personally in the first month of the Great Sith War, we literally see him stood over it with his lightsaber drawn.

3.You don't seem to be getting the point, Ulic uses the technique and defeats a fully-operable Dark Reaper at point blank range months before his prime as a Sith Lord as of the battle of Ossus, Anakin Skywalker uses the technique to defeat a Dark Reaper as it is beginning to activate from range with a tank, and is actively becoming more powerful than he'd ever even imagined before as he did so.

This is the most blatant comparison you could ask for outside of a direct fight and clearly indicates pre-prime Sith Ulic is > at least any prior Anakin Skywalker. The anchor is the Dark Reaper itself.

Id like to know how and why this includes all Dark Lords of the Sith? I've seen this quote before, as u know, but I never mentioned my thoughts on it before either. The quote is very vaguely worded, to be honest. His standing in the universe never gives him the respect of a Dark Lord of a caliber greater than Marka's for example. In fact, I would be greatly surprised if Ulic is ever portrayed in the same light as Ragnos ever was. Ragnos was being treated by Luke as a someone whose presence required the entire Jedi order of the time as a whole to be defeated. Ulic, meanwhile, loses to a 5 or so Jedi strike team. The man has seemingly less accolades and namedrops than Nadd (often worse in quality too). Sadow, on the other hand, completely obliterates Ulic in this aspect. In the end, I highly doubt this means that he is somehow above them, much less the strongest of them all (Ragnos). The man getting disarmed by Siosk Bass is not equal to the man who can utterly stomp Naga Sadow.

Almost everything you've said is irrelevant and isn't a contradiction, so I'll address the only useful point you made here. The quote has to be historical in nature because Ulic Qel-Droma was already second only to Exar Kun the moment their Brotherhood was created and he was crowned Kun's first and foremost Apprentice by Marka Ragnos. The quote is nonsensical otherwise.

Next we have "Exar Kun had already far surpassed the spirit of Freedon Nadd, by the time of his stalemate with Ulic Qel-Droma for the mantle of Dark Lord:"- The first quote simply says none of this, it says that he is the most powerful of the dark siders that rose during his time, which is, well, duh? it almost supports the idea that Kun is now equal to Sadow lol. The second quote can be ignored. The third quote as well. Most of these do the same job of telling me that Exar Kun grew in power, which is, well, ok, great? That "Official Starships and Vehicles" somehow conveniently ignores the fact that Kun has a technique meant to kill spirits, but alright. We both know that he didnt just TK Nadd into dust (he couldn't have done so even if he tried), but it is what it is. "I sense one great power has fallen and another has risen in its place." So this tells me that Nadd was killed off. Then it tells me that Exar Kun came around. Amazing.

Yeah all of these nitpicks don't matter, it is explicitly clear that Kun surpasses Nadd in power due to 'newfound power/strength' as stated many times and then immediately grows more powerful after the fact over and over again until he leaves to face Ulic:

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Still simmering with the Sith powers he had mastered, Kun lashed out and obliterated Nadd for all time.

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Exar Kun's power is in the ascendance.

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Ulic unleashes a force of unruly fury at the death of Master Arca, avenging the death by defeating Keto, and taking the Krath throne by the side of Aleema. Meanwhile on Yavin 4, a more powerful EXAR KUN rests in his meditation chamber.

The New Essential Chronology wrote:An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies.

Behind the Magic wrote:Kun was fixated in unleashing pure, unbridled power through ancient Sith means.

Knights of the Od Republic wrote:There were some ancient Sith temples there, and in them Exar Kun gained terrible powers. He raised the Sith and waged a war against the Republic... much like what seems to be happening today. But Exar Kun was far more powerful than any Sith Lord who has come since.

Galactic Files: Exar Kun wrote:This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed. Now super-powerful.

"Freedon Nadd was more powerful than a living Naga Sadow, prior to a century of growing his power:" ...Why am I not surprised that the first two quotes u posted for this don't support your comment at all... Anyhow:

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side." --> So Nadd was Jedi who turned to the dark side, and was Sadow's apprentice, former ruler of the ancient Sith empire. Sadow was kinda strong, etc etc. Don't see any pre prime Nadd >> Sadow quote here, to be honest with you. And I don't wear glasses, so...

"And just as Nadd killed his lord Sadow, Kun destroyed Nadd’s spirit here on Yavin 4. These notable deaths likely served to further imbue the moon’s temples with dark power, further fueling the barbaric Massassi–as well as the succession of Dark Lords who would later reside here." --> Hmm, so Nadd killed Sadow huh. Didn't see that coming. Damn. More surprised than when I learned that Santa Claus wasn't real. What I WAS waiting for, though, was a statement saying Nadd >> Sadow, but I don't see one here. Next quote, for now.

Not gonna lie to you, I actually expected actual proof for this comment in that last source you posted, but it seems to be worse than the previous two. Holy moly.

In case you wish to post another one of those Spanish sources that actually support this, go right ahead. I speak Spanish after all.

The first quote is to prove that he was indeed in his living state when Nadd destroyed him, so this rant was pointless. The fact Nadd killed him, is itself evidence Nadd surpassed him. He learned everything from Sadow, and some sources indicate he even became far more powerful when he murdered him, so not even just replacing him and growing after the fact.

You're tip-toeing around looking for wiggle room, but there is none. Naga Sadow taught Freedon Nadd until Nadd was finished and then Nadd murdered him, this has been obvious since it was portrayed in the source material. You've provided no actual counter material and just cast doubt that achieved nothing.

I intended to have this out a lot earlier, but real life comes first. Lorenzo has failed to comply within the original set time limits which would have resulted in this being finished months ago, but he failed to do even that.

This debate is over.

k