SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:yo dont quote to such huge kriff lol

Lorenzo wrote:

So, first things first, i have yet to see proof that the Forge is that much more powerful than the Map, henceforth turning this

"Malak > Star Forge >>>>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur."


into something more like this (btw, the Exiles ARE Muur, Pall, and co, so I honestly have no idea why u put that there)

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Map > Pall > Muur.

See, Celeste Morne is not some random Jedi Knight. Im sure u aware of Vader's attack on 8 Jedi masters, correct? Its a well known feat. Interestingly enough, Vader somewhat easily killed 4 or 5 of them, and yet, Celeste by herself seemed to give Vader more trouble than said 4 or 5. She may very well be the equivalent of 4 Jedi Master, if I got by this. Secondly, we have Muur aiding her by his powers to hers. Not only is he just as powerful as her, he very likely stronger than her, so by adding their powers, Celeste couldve easily doubled her powers. Last but not least, she would have needed to give in to the dark side, which can yet again, easily double someone's powers. THAT is the needed power to stop Vader. Celeste would've needed to quadruple her powers to actually stop Vader. That is about 16 to 20 Jedi Masters put together to stop Vader, if i were to wank this. To kill this off, is Muur's word supposed to trusted blindly now? He is famous for being a deceiver and manipulator. Him telling Celeste that they could beat Vader by becoming one instantly makes me think of Sidious telling Anakin that he can help Anakin keep his loved ones alive, maybe forever.

Celeste Morne is described as an “average” knight per Jan Duursema, who wrote Vector. Karness Muur was at the battle of Corbos, where he is said to have slain a number of Jedi.

Obi Wan fought Hett, but by no means did he win in a stomp. Kenobi is pressed by Hett at the very least, to the point where Hett is able to land several blows (a kick, and a hit with the butt of the saber).

So, back then I showed you that Celeste x4 (or more) is equal to, or possibly stronger than Vader (which is already iffy from the get go). You said that i needed to prove that Vader grew massively in power to actually reach Malak? That's what Ill do then. I made a blog talking about his power growth before, so im sorry if it seems like im taking points from there, because, well, I am. 

So we have 19 BBY Vader being equal to Muur plus a Dark Side amped Celeste Morne, which should already mean that Vader is likely stronger than Muur. 18 BBY Vader is stronger than that. 18 BBY Vader, after he killed Roan Shryne, is now even more powerful, feeling the real power of the Dark Side now like never before, making me think that this amp is bigger than when Anakin gave in to the Dark Side for the first time. 

More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.
--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader



Then we go to The Force Unleashed Dark Vader, which is 18 years of power growth for Vader. Thankfully for me, Vader has a quote in which he states that his powers grow momentarily. I wont wank this too hard, but it does mean that 18 years can make a HUGE difference in power between TFU Vader and 18 BBY Vader.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833843-dw8.jpg  < bottom of the page. Sorry that it looks so horrible btw lol


Then we have TFU 2 Vader, in which he has now grown quite a good deal yet again, enough to be likely a good deal stronger than Starkiller, or least his match, who was already more powerful than Galen Marek ever was.

Next we have A New Hope Vader, who is even stronger than before, albeit, i doubt it to be a significant power growth. I decided to mention simply because i have to win this lol

Now we have The Empire Strikes Back Vader, in which he grew to be far more formidable than before, meaning a clearly significant growth in power.

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. - Insider #62

When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet. - Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope

The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day. - Gamer 5

After a single with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. - https://www.writeurl.com/text/hvzw6ml3qvx978tdu09u/9dvm40pxnuot23wxuvna


At the end we have Return Of The Jedi, in which Vader is now at his peak, stronger than ever.

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. - Return Of The Jedi

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. - Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! - Return of the Jedi Comic

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFU 2 Vader >> TFU 1 Vader >>>> 18 BBY (post killing Roan) >> 18 BBY (pre killing Roan) > 19 BBY = Muur + Dark Side Celeste

I used 13 of these > up there, amount up to this:

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste


While you have this:

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Maps > Pall > Muur + Dark Side Amped Celeste 


You have 5 of these up there, which amounts to:

Malak >>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste.



Seems to me that I win this round.

Lorenzo wrote:So first things first, you seem to assume that Pall, before he became a dark sider and who said its power was blinding, is equal to Sith Lord Pall, who killed the strongest sith on the planet at one point, BEFORE his prime, who was skilled enough to make some stuff during his lifetime that not even Sidious could replicate. His name was Graush i believe. Now, that's where the obvious part of my argument comes in. If Pall grew in power so damn much simply by using the Star Maps, then so would Muur. Current Muur =/= jedi Muur who was mega impressed with the Star Maps, so there is no way that Malak scales that far above him. Malak is indeed far above noobie Exiles, but he is by no means far above the same Ajunta Pall who Vitiate considered a possible threat, whom Bastilla was extremely wary of, etc. Ps and yes, that makes sense. I wasnt sure if u didnt know about it, since it is not technically a well known piece of info, so i just reiterating was a good.. idea.

Kreia wrote:"It is a technique that has been lost for some time. Not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other force sensitives... The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

Chris Avellone wrote:"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

Kreia wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

lorenzo wrote:Average Jedi were easily killed by clone troopers, and were fodderized by Vader. She falls into none of those two things, and she gave Vader some effort. She is clearly not average. Not even close. As for Muur slaying a number of jedi, 19 BBY Vader did that every Saturday, per se. Is that supposed to be impressive or a counter point to something else?

lorenzo wrote:In sad fight, Muur had the clear, obvious, easy advantage, and an argument could be made that he could have even been sort of playing with Krayt. He did after all want his body, i believe. Playing mind tricks is his game after all. Considering the fact that u did seem to have addressed the fact of Krayt being half dead, and half powered to live longer, ill assume that you already knew about this. Yet again 

lorenzo wrote:Half Dead, half powered Vong Krayt < Dark Side Celeste + Muur > Muur prime >> Muur with Star Map (first time) >>> Jedi Muur who was impressed at the Star Map << Noob Exiles << Star Forger Malak.

 I could make a case here that Muur was stronger than Malak, to be honest. 

Something important to note here, i do not believe that skill with sabers = strength in the force. We have seen less powerful people beat stronger foes by using sheer skill many times before. Im just mentioning this in case u try to make use of this too heavily, or too often.




Now that that is over with, Hett hitting Kenobi =/= Hett being equal to Obi Wan in power, at all. Im sorry, but Kenobi has been hit by about every single of his opponents shown in source of media ever, and yet, he still seemed to always have been more powerful than them, often times by a good margin too. Secondly, in the scans you showed, once Obi Wan decides to end the fight, he ends it quite quickly, and EASILY cuts off Hett's arm (i believe he blows it up using the force in the comic, separating it from Hett's body, but could be wrong, while in the other, he uses his lightsaber to cut it off). Kenobi is clearly the superior, well, everything in that fight, no matter how you look at it.

lorenzo wrote:So, by multiple sources, you mean one, and by disagree, you mean it doenst either? Cuz thats how it seems to me. My points were:





Vader was mentally unstable, and had an unfounded fear for Obi Wan, even though he was above Obi Wan in all relevant categories in said fight, including power and skill


Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp


In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself. - Insider 65


At the beginning of A New Hope, Darth Vader is so powerful in the Dark Side that he is second in command of the entire galaxy! - Adventures Magazine 4


(^^^ His military might/influence grew alongside his power growth, hence why this is important for me to mention) 


Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. - Death Star



Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. -Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide






No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. -Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate





That would instantly make him more skilled than Obi Wan, as well as more powerful. Actually, Vader being far above Sedriss, who was a Dooku+ force user, supports this as well.



Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base. -Handbook #3: Dark Empire






As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force






Him being =< ROTJ Dark side Luke also supports this, who in base, was already stronger than prime Obi Wan ever was.



A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.  Shadows of the Empire 

lorenzo wrote:Obi wan defending himself means absolutely nothing either. We have already seen how Vader reacts to Obi Wan before too. He clearly figured out that this wasnt the real Obi Wan by using basic force sense, but it goes to show that just his face is already enough to kark up Vader. Proxy here is easily just as skilled, if not more skilled than Old Obi Wan, and once Vader gets mad at his face, he stomps Proxy very thoroughly. This goes to show how a pissed off Vader wouldve fought Old Ben Kenobi.





As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half. -The Force Unleashed







I somehow cannot find a single one of the quotes i previously used on other threads when talking about the Obi Wan, but ill make sure to post them once i do find them. Ill promise you that much.



Now that i am done with that... 



You say here that Vader is far weaker than Muur and that Muur stomped him, but this is based on nothing. Secondly, Vector (dark times) takes place only 3 months after Palps declares his new Order, while he was the senate, and not the emperor (see what i did there). Aka 19 BBY, less than 3 months after Mustafar. And the novel (Rise of Darth Vader) starts in 19 BBY, right before Order 66, and ends in 18 BBY, at Roan's death. Look it up. 



And i never said that the amp is the same, or greater than the amp that Zonakin got. I said that it was enough of a power up to have been proportionally greater than Vader, or Anakin had ever gotten before. And why is it ludicrous for Vader to have gotten an amp with similar power behind it?

lorenzo wrote:More like we have:



Malak > SF >> Star Map > Exiles > Noob Pall > Noob Muur >= Dying, half powered Krayt ? Hett << Kenobi >>>> Ben <<<< Prime Kenobi ~ Dooku < Sedriss <<< ANH Vader << ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader. 

lorenzo wrote:As for the Exar Kun thing, im sorry to say, but none of his feats (aside from what, mind controlling a bunch of fodder, normal humans, not even instantly btw, while wearing a gauntlet that incredibly amps one's power) compare to Vader's own. Him pulling away information from ROTJ's Luke mind that easily, while not even trying, WHILE Luke fought against is just so much better than what Kun did too, in my opinion, that i simply decided to ignore it for now, unless it does in fact become a threat later on. Lets say im pulling a God here, watching its career with great interest, but only affecting things from the shadows.

Darth Vader, Star Wars Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:"These creatures have become such an irritation that every time I see one I want to strike it down with my lightsaber. Be that as it may, I interviewed a Toydarian subject who showed a great amount of resistance to Force suggestion, up to the point that I created physical discomfort. I found that they can be easily intimidated by a demonstration of strength. And it proved relatively simple to cause it to expire, merely by making its existence extremely painful. Ultimately, though it showed a great degree of willpower, it was no match for the power of the Force."

IG (Exists) wrote:Will it ever change lmao?

IG (Exists) wrote:Vader isn’t a top dog...