Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

CuckedCurry wrote:You’re a traitor to the cause. Remove Bane from your pp you Qordis-tier mouse

You can’t tell me what my pfp can and can’t be you Sirak-tier mouse

Kun absolutely obliterates, in fact Kun is so far above Tenebrous I wouldn’t be surprised if Kun could absolutely stomp the Balls of both Tenebrous and his Master

It’s actually laughable the amount of people have been so adamant that Tenebrous wins yet Havnt proven a single thing or even attempted a counter

Sith Archivist wrote:Bane loses to anyone except BoD Sith

Not quite true he’s got better feats than most SWTOR sith, and May be higher than a lot of the Banites

LoH ragdolling.

Kun is vastly superior per Naga Sadow's scaling.

Kun annihilates Tenebrous

Tenebrous, the whole Sadow >= Tenebrous notion is a farce.

SnowxElf wrote:Tenebrous, the whole Sadow >= Tenebrous notion is a farce.

Why?

Rei wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Tenebrous, the whole Sadow >= Tenebrous notion is a farce.

Why?

Yeah, I knew that post was going to grab some attention. I can post a longer explanation in the future, if I feel like, that explains my opinion much more. There is no way Tenebrous is close proximity to Sadow. Bane already surpassed Sadow, and Tenebrous is much more powerful than Bane.

 Freedon Nadd (who is > Sadow) cannot be that much more powerful than Darth Bane, if he is, and Bane himself is vastly below Tenebrous.
1) Darth Bane gathered Nadd’s holocron which contained Sadow’s knowledge as well. Bane also gathered other Holocrons: Revan’s, Sorzus Syn’s, Andeddu’s, and Belia Darzu’s.

2) There is no reason to assume in any way that Nadd scales above Bane by a large margin because Bane already had access to all of Nadd’s knowledge and much, much, more knowledge than that even. 

3) Bane >= Nadd. He might be below slightly or above slightly but regardless Nadd cannot be that much more powerful.
Then we have Tenebrous who is factually more powerful than Bane and by over a dozen generations:

Why is Bane more powerful than Sadow

Bane solos, and easily on top of that.

KingofBlades wrote:Why is Bane more powerful than Sadow

Nadd is superior to Sadow and Bane already had access to all of Nadd's knowledge and much more.

Why does having access to Nadd's knowledge mean he's superior to Sadow in power?

When he has all of Sadow's knowledge, plus knowledge from Revan’s, Sorzus Syn’s, Andeddu’s, and Belia Darzu’s holocron, yes. What makes Nadd/Sadow more powerful than Bane or gives us the assumption to believe so?

Snowxelf wrote:When he has all of Sadow's knowledge, plus knowledge from Revan’s, Sorzus Syn’s, Andeddu’s, and Belia Darzu’s holocron, yes. What makes Nadd/Sadow more powerful than Bane or gives us the assumption to believe so?

Since when does knowledge = power? Simply having Nadd's knowledge does not mean that Bane is superior in power to Sadow in any way. For example, Anakin had way less knowledge than Yoda in ROTS and yet was a near equal to power to him. Bane having knowledge does not mean that he is capable of being as proficient and capable with this knowledge as Nadd or someone else unless he is as powerful, which is independent to knowledge.

Plagueis himself confesses inferiority to Sadow, whom is vastly below Exar Kun, in 67 BBY which automatically puts him above Bane. Your whole argument is knowledge = power, which does not work.

Since when does knowledge = power? 

In Bane's case we know he gained power from the holocrons. If the holocrons did not give the Sith power, then there would not be much a reason for them to sought them out.

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
(Episode I: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook)

Simply having Nadd's knowledge does not mean that Bane is superior in power to Sadow in any way. 

Yes and no, I will try to explain throughout the post. As far as who is more powerful between Sadow and Darth Bane we do not have much to go off, but there is some. Mostly what we know is that Bane had their knowledge, and he was also intended to be more powerful than them (quote below).  Obviously, the quote below should not be taken at face value, but it still carries weight. Then, the last thing we have is Plagueis’ opinion which I will discuss momentarily.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5207832-8214746295-Bane..PNG
 

Plagueis himself confesses inferiority to Sadow, whom is vastly below Exar Kun, in 67 BBY which automatically puts him above Bane. Your whole argument is knowledge = power, which does not work.

Except that whole knowledge = power notion is what the entire Plagueis < Sadow argument hinges on.

The entire argument revolves around Sadow/Exar kun knowing how to extend life, therefore making them more powerful than Plagueis. A lot of his musing has to do with his character because he was obsessed with immortality, so he only believed a “true Sith” could extend their life. 
To clarify, I do not believe Bane >  Nadd/Sadow just because he has their knowledge. All we know is that Bane was intended to be more powerful than them and he also has their knowledge. So, I do not see a reason for Bane to not be more powerful. The Plagueis quote is not reliable and I have not seen an argument yet that convinces me so. Also, even if we accept Plag's musing as factual how does this apply to Tenebrous again?

Absolutely nothing you've said thus far contradicts the Neo-Antediluvian blog.

Gulps... Kun. When I first read the Plaguies novel what Plaguies said about the ancient Sith was pretty straightforward. They>him at that time, at least. I've seen others try and interpret that text to mean some inane things... there is also Plaguies saying Venamis would have "done well" in Banes era. As for Tenebrous, all he's ever really done is hold back boulders that were star ship size. You have Kun beating down JA Luke and empowering Kyp so much that later in life Kyp isn't near those levels with feats that also eclipse Tenebrous....

First, Plagueis’ musing =/= fact; now even if Plagueis’ musing was factual this would not change my opinion on the main point of the blog anyway (that Tenebrous is also sub-ancients). I will continue my case to talk more about the blog itself (my problems with it) and how my post about Bane correlates with the blog; like how It is extremely hard to believe that a being like Tenebrous is sub-ancients when Darth Bane is already knocking at the ancient’s doorstep, or superior to, and we know Tenebrous is massively more powerful than Bane. 

This was not addressed in the blog, Plagueis was never properly trained as an apprentice, even for as long as he was an apprentice. So, the notion of Plagueis being ~ Tenebrous already seems unlikely:

Full access to his apprentice's Force-perceptions! Delightful. Better than Tenebrous had allowed himself to hope. Hmm-perhaps he should have invested some time in actually training the foolish Muun. Tapping Plagueis' Force powers would be more entertaining if they weren't so stunted from disuse. And yet.... (Tenebrous Way)

The blog also further uses the revelation that Tenebrous receives (that Plagueis was more powerful than realized) to say this means they have parity, but this is taken out of context. Tenebrous, even after having all excess to Plagueis’ force-perceptions, stated explicitly that Plaguies’ powers were “stunted from disuse”. After Tenebrous took a moment to delve deeper into Plagueis’ force-perceptions he then concluded that he was more powerful, but this is implied to be power that he couldn’t bring to bear because: “Plagueis' Force powers would be more entertaining if they weren't so stunted from disuse”. In other words, Plagueis’ powers were suppressed because he didn’t know how to effectively use them.

The blog also says that because Plagueis sensed a being of “near equal power” to himself is further evidence that Plag ~ Teneb. Which again is also taken out of context:

Was Tenebrous's spirit the source of the power he sensed? Was there a brief period of survival after death during which a true Sith could continue to influence the world of the living? It was as if the mass of the galaxy had descended on him. A lesser being might have heaved his shoulders. (Plaguies) 

Plagueis notes that it also could have been a lesser being; implying he could be sensing a being less powerful than Tenebrous. Plagueis is not completely sure what he is sensing; he just mused that it could have possibly been his master out of instinct among other things (he was really sensing Venamis). An allusion to this is given later in the novel when Palpatine kills Plagueis; Palpatine then senses something which triggers a similar reaction to what Plagueis felt after he “killed” Tenebrous. This does not suggest parity:

Something was shading his sense of triumph: a vague awareness of a power greater than himself. Was it Plagueis reaching out from the far side of death to vex him? Or was the feeling a mere consequence of apotheosis?  Outside, the summits of the tallest buildings were gilded by the first rays of daylight (Plaguies)

In terms of feats to compare between Plag and Teneb, there are not many, but he have some. James clearly tried to indicate that Tenebrous is the stronger of two given that he goes out of his way to directly compare the two in the novel. In the novel, when the cave is collapsing Palgueis and Tenebrous run back to their starship and Tenebrous deflects an exceptionally large explosion and large builders. When this entire scenario happens Tenebrous literally does all the work. Plagueis literally was too weak to help him much at all.

Being that Tenebrous is the third to last Banite Sith he would have a surprising fraction of the power of Sidious. To convince me that Tenebrous is on equal footing with Plag, and is sub-Ancients, and ultimately sub-Kun, you would have to convince me these things:

• How Tenebrous is sub-ancients when Bane is already on par with them or higher.
  
• How Tenebrous’ belief in both novels that Plagueis was pitifully inferior to him is inaccurate (did Plagueis secretly hide his powers from Tenebrous for decades or something?).
  
• How any of the quotes used in the blog suggest parity (between Teneb and Plag) when context is examined more closely. 
  
• Why Plagueis is directly shown to be much less powerful than Tenebrous in the "cave scenario" if he wasn’t.
  
• and how a mostly untrained Plag is on par with his Banite master (of course he surpassed him by a lot later)
  

SnowxElf wrote:Being that Tenebrous is the third to last Banite Sith he would have a surprising fraction of the power of Sidious.

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case considering Plagueis surpasses Tenebrous exponentially in power.

Meatpants wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:Being that Tenebrous is the third to last Banite Sith he would have a surprising fraction of the power of Sidious.

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case considering Plagueis surpasses Tenebrous exponentially in power.

I agree, but obviously a small fraction of Sidious' power is still a lot overall.

SnowXElf wrote:I agree, but obviously a small fraction of Sidious' power is still a lot overall.

Nah, Plagueis is exponentially more powerful than Tenebrous, and Sidious is way more powerful in turn. So, no, Tenebrous is nowhere close to Sidious.

Bro, I already agree with much of what you said so far and I don't recall ever saying that Tenebrous is close to Sidious. He has a slight fraction of ROTS Sidious power at the very least, which is quite a lot of power (compared to other characters). I never meant to compare them to Prime Palp. 

and how a mostly untrained Plag is on par with his Banite master (of course he surpassed him by a lot later)