Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

I'll be looking into that. Thanks for the tag.

I like how Malak and the Star Forge is sub-Triumvirate but one quote from a deleted article that was debunked by its own author negates facts from much more reliable sources.

Deronn_Solo wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Cory Herndon, Twitter wrote:"I think my thoughts at the time were that Malak was in a position to, with Revan, conquer the Republic, and therefore was the most powerful. And I was *definitely* thinking that the Star Forge's power, both in terms of being able to spit out ships and perhaps having a Dark Side connection made him clearly one of the most powerful Sith in history."

 
Interesting. Isn't this the same guy Ant message before that confirmed otherwise? Yeah, he seemingly did an entire 360.

That's the problem with messaging these story group guys -- they are hardly ever dogmatic about their work in regards to sourcebook statements in such, and answers questions in ways as neutral as possible.

The problem is when you ask loaded questions to a guy who doesn't even remember writing something, him suddenly knowing what his thoughts were at the time - 15 years later - might seem contradictory to the source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/sindielktaylor/status/1029304109436813313

So it's perfectly fine when Ant asks him about it but absolutely not when I do?

LadyKulvax wrote:Well when he messaged Ant he was hardly concrete there either

Actually, he was, lmao.

LadyKulvax wrote:


His only two points then was that: 1.The web article is canon. 2.He still thinks Malak wins.

Umm, that is as concrete as it gets, actually. If the article is canon, and his thoughts when he wrote the quote was that Malak was > Kun, then how is it not definitive? At the end of the day, most, if not all source books entries are opinions of artist that went through the editorial ones at Lucasarts and was given the stamp of canonical approval. Meaning, his thoughts at the time, was indeed canon.


His thoughts on the matter after the fact is tantamount to irrelevant as he isn't in the power to retcon canon statements on characters owned by someone else without licensed approval.


Like I said, mental gymnastics can't wiggle out of canon facts.

That isn't what he says though, he says he'd still side with Malak. Yet in the reply I showed you he actually confirms in what context Malak is superior. He never clarified that prior to said tweet.

Better yet, the quote comes from a deleted article that was since revised twice by Wizards of the Coast.

Somehow, I doubt he was talking about Malak bombarding via orbital assault from the Star Forge when he stated  Exar would fall to Malak, but whatever floats your boat. As I said before tho -- I don't actually care what he stated retrospectively years later because he doesn't have the authority to change a thing that been canonically stated.



The quote not being in "print" anymore, doesn't deny its canocity unless stated otherwise stated. C'mon, you're flipping like Gabby Douglas, now.

I'm not flipping at all. The quote has been:

1.Clarified by the author.
2.Deleted with its source.
3.Revised twice over by Wizards of the Coast.

Now even if you want to adhere to Death of the Author, unless you can state that the quote isn't referring to the half-a-dozen other possible things people, not even including myself, have interpreted before. Well, I think we're done.

I'll just take my Kun > Nihilus > Triumvirate > Star Forge & Malak scaling and let you sit on that.

Lmfao.

Corny Hardon did clarify it for us.

Malak wins.

Lmaoo

Kun still stomps I see, not seeing many real arguments.

"insert huehuehue gif"

Outcast wrote:

Lmfao.

I like how he basically says that if Kun's stats in a newer source are better than Malak's then we 'follow those'.

KotOR:CG with the GG.

So what's the census? All of Cory's statements are not relevant, leaving the quote wide open. Or they are all relevant, in which case Cory confirms what those 'powers' are.

Do try and be consistent.

LadyKulvax wrote:All of Cory's statements are not relevant, leaving the quote wide open.

That doesn't really leave the quote wide open. The quote asks whether it's Malak's cybernetics that give him such power - why would cybernetics relate to the strength of his industrial base or size of his fleet? "Was it cybernetics that gave Malak this huge ass fleet?" It's clearly referencing personal power.

Yeah like the statement has an obvious interpretation. The grammar is simple. Believing otherwise is living in denial.

The Ellimist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:All of Cory's statements are not relevant, leaving the quote wide open.

That doesn't really leave the quote wide open. The quote asks whether it's Malak's cybernetics that give him such power - why would cybernetics relate to the strength of his industrial base or size of his fleet? "Was it cybernetics that gave Malak this huge ass fleet?" It's clearly referencing personal power.

Yeah, no. It says 'powers', plural. As in multiple. It isn't singular. Oh and no, the emphasis there is life-support, Something that can't be explained technologically by mere cybernetics. The actual reference is to the Star Forge, but like the rest of the article Herndon can't be specific due to spoilers. The Star Forge is the source of the life-support that Malak wears, like it is for literally everything else that his empire has.

Now if you want to get into specifics around the quote itself, the single greatest and most important facet of the Star Forge per Malak himself in the big final boss battle is that it can taint the life essences of Force-users and allow him to feed off of it, which literally rejuvenates his life. Making him effectively immortal and invulnerable.

Neither Nadd nor Kun ever attained immortality and invulnerability.

Now tell me why it's not wide open for interpretation.

LadyKulvax wrote:Making him effectively immortal and invulnerable.

Neither Nadd nor Kun ever attained immortality and invulnerability.

Except when Revan killed him.

Anakin told Dooku that "my powers have doubled" on the IH. Its obvious he was referring to his power in the force rather than the number of powers he knew. Same principle with the malak quote.

We also have the quote saying Jerec had "powers" that rivalled Vader. I hardly imagine its referring to his military resources, or his cadre of Dark Jedi.

LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, no. It says 'powers', plural.

Do you think Anakin was referring to his beast control powers?

As in multiple. It isn't singular. Oh and no, the emphasis there is life-support, Something that can't be explained technologically by mere cybernetics. The actual reference is to the Star Forge, but like the rest of the article Herndon can't be specific due to spoilers. The Star Forge is the source of the life-support that Malak wears, like it is for literally everything else that his empire has.

That it references his cybernetic life support doesn't mean that its focus is on the "power" of having good life support. That would be an incredibly awkward and clunky interpretation (which would explain why almost nobody here, not even most Exar Kun fans, defaulted to that interpretation and one has to dig into mental gymnastics to come to it)  - the simpler interpretation is just that it's wondering whether the life support also enhanced his powers and that's why he's so powerful.

And the Star Forge also vastly enhances Malak's overall power.

Now if you want to get into specifics around the quote itself, the single greatest and most important facet of the Star Forge per Malak himself in the big final boss battle is that it can taint the life essences of Force-users and allow him to feed off of it, which literally rejuvenates his life. Making him effectively immortal and invulnerable.

Neither Nadd nor Kun ever attained immortality and invulnerability.

If Malak became "effectively immortal and invulnerable" to a degree beyond Exar Kun, doesn't that imply that Malak would beat Exar Kun?

One more time, lmao

The Ellimist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, no. It says 'powers', plural.

Do you think Anakin was referring to his beast control powers?

As in multiple. It isn't singular. Oh and no, the emphasis there is life-support, Something that can't be explained technologically by mere cybernetics. The actual reference is to the Star Forge, but like the rest of the article Herndon can't be specific due to spoilers. The Star Forge is the source of the life-support that Malak wears, like it is for literally everything else that his empire has.

That it references his cybernetic life support doesn't mean that its focus is on the "power" of having good life support. That would be an incredibly awkward and clunky interpretation (which would explain why almost nobody here, not even most Exar Kun fans, defaulted to that interpretation and one has to dig into mental gymnastics to come to it)  - the simpler interpretation is just that it's wondering whether the life support also enhanced his powers and that's why he's so powerful.

And the Star Forge also vastly enhances Malak's overall power.

Now if you want to get into specifics around the quote itself, the single greatest and most important facet of the Star Forge per Malak himself in the big final boss battle is that it can taint the life essences of Force-users and allow him to feed off of it, which literally rejuvenates his life. Making him effectively immortal and invulnerable.

Neither Nadd nor Kun ever attained immortality and invulnerability.

If Malak became "effectively immortal and invulnerable" to a degree beyond Exar Kun, doesn't that imply that Malak would beat Exar Kun?

Let me get this straight, so 'powers' isn't dismissable on the basis of referring to Force techniques? Great, Muur > Krayt is confirmed then. Kun legit flick-wristing Krayt, Kenobi and Dooku then.

Again the actual reference is to the Star Forge, and longevity is in fact the main point of interest, as is repeated in the same article later on:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"Malak ignores the first effects of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess."

Literally the major plot-point in relation to the Star Forge is:

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You continue to amaze me Revan. If only you had been the one to uncover the true power of the Star Forge you might have become truly invincible. But you were a fool. All you saw was an enormous factory.All you ever imagined was an infinite fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. [..]

The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference : I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!

Something emphatically stated by the Databank:

Darth Malak, Star Wars Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

The only defining context of Malak's powers in the original quote references life-support:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From the second best game in the series wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Like it even defines the scope of his power in the same paragraph, then talks about 'greater powers' with nothing but life-support as context for what 'powers' means.

Malak.