Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Ellimist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, no. It says 'powers', plural.

Do you think Anakin was referring to his beast control powers?

As in multiple. It isn't singular. Oh and no, the emphasis there is life-support, Something that can't be explained technologically by mere cybernetics. The actual reference is to the Star Forge, but like the rest of the article Herndon can't be specific due to spoilers. The Star Forge is the source of the life-support that Malak wears, like it is for literally everything else that his empire has.

That it references his cybernetic life support doesn't mean that its focus is on the "power" of having good life support. That would be an incredibly awkward and clunky interpretation (which would explain why almost nobody here, not even most Exar Kun fans, defaulted to that interpretation and one has to dig into mental gymnastics to come to it)  - the simpler interpretation is just that it's wondering whether the life support also enhanced his powers and that's why he's so powerful.

And the Star Forge also vastly enhances Malak's overall power.

Now if you want to get into specifics around the quote itself, the single greatest and most important facet of the Star Forge per Malak himself in the big final boss battle is that it can taint the life essences of Force-users and allow him to feed off of it, which literally rejuvenates his life. Making him effectively immortal and invulnerable.

Neither Nadd nor Kun ever attained immortality and invulnerability.

If Malak became "effectively immortal and invulnerable" to a degree beyond Exar Kun, doesn't that imply that Malak would beat Exar Kun?

Let me get this straight, so 'powers' isn't dismissable on the basis of referring to Force techniques? Great, Muur > Krayt is confirmed then. Kun legit flick-wristing Krayt, Kenobi and Dooku then.

Again the actual reference is to the Star Forge, and longevity is in fact the main point of interest, as is repeated in the same article later on:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"Malak ignores the first effects of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess."

Literally the major plot-point in relation to the Star Forge is:

Darth Malak, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:You continue to amaze me Revan. If only you had been the one to uncover the true power of the Star Forge you might have become truly invincible. But you were a fool. All you saw was an enormous factory.All you ever imagined was an infinite fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. [..]

The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference : I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!

Something emphatically stated by the Databank:

Darth Malak, Star Wars Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

The only defining context of Malak's powers in the original quote references life-support:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From the second best game in the series wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Like it even defines the scope of his power in the same paragraph, then talks about 'greater powers' with nothing but life-support as context for what 'powers' means.

But as I said, if Malak gets {invulnerability, healing} powers "far greater than Exar Kun"...doesn't he win?  

Anyway, you're acting as if the Star Forge only gives some sort of Force heal ability and cherry picking quotes that reference that (and some that don't even do so...), when it's indicated by multiple sources that he grows more powerful in ways beyond that. It's not like he has the same potency in TK, augmentation, etc. and just heals from damage or something, lmao. Are you denying that this is true? I know you know enough to be familiar with the quotes showing a more complete picture. And you yourself are harping on the plurality of "powers", yet seem to think that it only refers to a single attribute. Also:

"You must go now, Revan. The Star Forge feeds the power of your old apprentice. If you do not stop him soon he will become too powerful for even you to stop."

―Elder Council (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic)

That's clearly not just referring to Force healing ability.

BTW, I don't know why you looked through his stats, picked out a single ability that wasn't even emphasized, and pretended that this was the only thing the text was referring to. It also says:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

It takes an incredible amount of mental gymnastics to assert that the only thing this was referring to was his "Damage Reduction 5" power ("main point of interest"? Lmao wut?). That would be a ridiculously clunky way of interpreting the statements; why would the authors keep saying "powers" broadly when he's just referring to a single trait? You can't even say it's to keep the nature of the powers a mystery because it then lists his powers...

Except the entire point here is that him being 'nearly unstoppable', 'truly invincible', 'ignores the first effects of any kind of damage' due to perhaps 'life support', 'physical result of Sith alchemy', 'hidden armor linked to his voice mask' per the article, where we know that it's the Star Forge, is the most repeated and most important facet of the entire article. I am not saying that his replenishing life force is the only thing being provided to him here but that it is the single most important and defining facet, per Malak himself and the Databank, that is talked about here. So much so that his growing power is emphatically placed in the backseat to his ability to absorb life essence. That's the defining aspect of what the article, the game and the databank entry all refer to here.

So yes, Malak has greater powers than Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd had. I mean, of course he does. The Star Forge's knowledge gets wanked beyond the Sith necropolis of Malachor V:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause.

Infinite Empire Codex Entry wrote:The ancient Rakata combined proficiency with the Force with a mastery of technology and bioengineering. Massive weapons of war–such as the Star Forge, a space station powered by the dark side and capable of manufacturing whole fleets–were among their largest-scale achievements, but not every Rakata creation was so grandiose. Rakata mind traps are capable of containing the psyche of an individual in a virtual environment. Creatures bred and enhanced by Rakata life-shapers can survive both hard vacuum and baradium explosives. Rakata droids possess weaponry capable of breaking apart most forms of matter at the atomic level. Rakata relics–even nonfunctional ones–are desperate sought after by those few scientists and archaeologists aware of their existence. Urban legends among smuggling rings tell of ancient devices that wreak havoc on their owners, and both Imperial Intelligence and the Strategic Information Service monitor these rumors with interest. One stray Rakata artifact can change the course of history.

The Star Forge is the holy grail of Rakatan knowledge, something Soa goes and uses to become a threat as big as the Sith Empire and Galactic Republic.

Yet interestingly, Revan deems the power of Malachor V to be greater and more valuable than the Star Forge:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Revan's power continues to grow, and he secretly strengthens his stronghold, hiding it even from his apprentice, DARTH MALAK. Soon, the evil force infecting the planet became the FORGE for Darth Revan's shock troops; the feared SITH ASSASSINS - fallen Jedi, tempted and cajoled by the evil of Malachor V, and under Revan's evil command. Soon, a shadow academy to the one on Korriban is constructed; and an evil enclave mirroring the Jedi academy on Dantooine is complete.

Yet Revan isn't as ignorant of the Star Forge's power as Malak would have you believe:



Better yet, even after the Star Forge is destroyed and Malak killed, the dark side only gets stronger as the Triumvirate grows:



Hell, even MW!Vitiate is stated to be a far greater threat than the Star Forge:

Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan wrote:He and Malak had found something. He couldn’t remember what it was, or where it was, but he feared it on a deep, primal level. Somehow he knew that whatever the terrible secret might be, it was a threat far greater than the Mandalorians or the Star Forge. And Revan was convinced it was still out there.

So not only are the Triumvirate and MW!Vitiate >> Star Forge, I don't see any reason why Exar Kun isn't. Especially not on the basis of a quote that is, as you can see, far from being the most definitive quote we have. Especially not one that Cory himself says can be debunked by Kun having better game stats than Malak in more updated versions of the game. (The KotOR:CG does have Kun > Malak in stats)

So forgive me if I'm far from convinced when Kun has greater feats, accolades and scaling than Malak does, by a country mile.

Guys there's an obvious third option. Exar Kun is as strong as @LadyKulvax says and yet is still sub SF Malak. As a result Revan and Valk achieve apotheosis and the rest of the TOR characters become top tier.

Except he isn't sub-SF!Malak, at all.

LadyKulvax wrote:Except he isn't sub-SF!Malak, at all.

Ah but you see possessing at least a basic understanding of the English language makes it obvious that the quote is referring to personal power. In the very same way Anakin was referring to his personal power in the force even though he said "powers" to Dooku on the IH. Possessing the regenerative and durability powers Malak has wouldn't be enough alone to put him above Exar Kun. Nor is the SF responsible for that. Those powers are derived from the multiple jedi he captured and use as life packs. And even if the SF was the culprit of those powers, that wouldn't necessarily be more impressive than what Kun has shown when he healed his crippled body almost instantaneously on Korriban. So the malak quote referring to his healing capabilities rather than power in general is doubtful.

On a far far more important note it is time you accept my new divine scaling and accept Revan and Valk as the gods of the SW universe.

You claim that is, yet you've made no source-backed argument or attempt to prove otherwise. Just 'because reasons'. KotOR 2 even strongly implies that Freedon Nadd is > Darth Nihilus:

Visas Marr, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Sith Captain, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The Sith Master says we'll have reinforcements soon, when I ask for details he says it's a 'surprise'. I hate the ones with a sense of humor."

Darth Traya, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"It is a technique that has been lost for some time. Not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other force sensitives... The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

What does that say for Malak, who is sub-Nihilus?

All this says is that no modern sith has used the drain technique before Nihilus. This isn't saying that no modern sith has approached the ancient sith in power. You say that Freedon Nadd>Nihilus but do you even believe this? You recently said that Kun stomps Nadd but beats Nihilus in a great fight.

She literally says the technique hasn't been used since the days of the ancients. She goes on to say that she fears that Nihilus already rivals some of the ancient Sith. Given that Nadd, Ragnos, Kun and Hord are the top dogs with Ragnos and then Kun as MVPs then the inference is obvious.

The other quotes only go to prove that the Triumvirate intended to resurrect Nadd as a new ruler. Nihilus himself is the one who is trying to resurrect him. The awe by which Visas beholds Nadd's lasting power is also very indicative.

Well the Malak quote also puts SF Malak above Nadd and thus according to your own scaling Nihilus. You're looking for feats to put Malak above Kun but he's an accolade and scaling based character. Such characters exist in lore. You yourself believe Ragnos is above Vader for example despite Ragnos being nigh featless.

The Malak quote is from 2003, Kreia's canonically accurate statement is from 2004. Also, Darth Nihilus and the Sith are stated to make the dark side stronger than when Malak and the Star Forge ruled.

If Malak had world devastating powers, he'd have nuked Taris himself instead of relying on his fleet's orbital bombardment to do it for him. He didn't because he couldn't.

If Malak did have the power to do so, he doesn't have the appropriate technique required to express that power in a way similar to Nihilus. You pointed out that Nihilus and Traya were the first Sith to know about the draining technique since the ancient sith. Which means Malak didn't know the drain technique.That doesn't mean he's overall weaker than Nihilus. For example, If Kun is so much greater than Nihilus, a planet devestator, he should've annihilated the jedi fleet above Yavin IV which for the record is also a DS nexus. Now there's two possible explanations for why he didn't do so.

1. Kun is weaker than Nihilus 
2. Since Kun didn't know the drain technique he could not express his power on the scale of Nihilus.

Option 1 ruins your Kun scaling. Option 2 is plausible under your current scaling but  is also applicable to Malak.

You're really not getting the point, Malak is demonstratably inferior in every way to Nihilus and the Triumvirate is confirmed to be > Malak + SF by way of their effects on the dark side's power in TCSWE.

Kun couldn't kill the Jedi fleet because there were 10,000 of them, and they used Wall of Light. But Kun is far more powerful than a Jedi who can draw on a nexus with sufficient power to stop supernova waves from completely destroying Ossus, who is also more powerful than Thon who could contain the power of Sith spirits strong enough to consume an entire sector of the Inner Rim. 

Lets look at the source you provided

This says that the dark side was growing in strength since the end of the Jedi Civil War. This doesn't mean that the power exceeded what it was when Malak was at his height.
To clarify say the dark side was at a power of X when Malak was at his height. After Malak is defeated and the SF destroyed the power of the DS dropped to Y. Following the war's conclusion the power of the DS began rising above Y. However this doesn't mean it ever passed X.

It never said anything about dropping in power, it says the dark side was growing in the wake of the Jedi Civil War. Where are you getting that it dropped?

If the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy dies and a massive space installation powered by the DS is destroyed I'm going to assume the DS's power and influence is going to drop.

You're inferring that with no basis, the Triumvirate rose from Malachor V concurrently as the Sith Civil War sprang up. Nihilus had been on Malachor V ever since the MSG detonation. The dark side as of the Dark Wars was demonstratably stronger than as of the Jedi Civil War, I'll explain why:

In the Jedi Civil War it is stated that the dark side clouded Jedi senses from the destruction of the Jedi Enclave, but not Malak:

Bastila wrote:We should have felt a disturbance in the Force when the attack came. The fact that we did not is a bad sign. I fear the dark side is growing stronger, casting shadows our vision cannot piece."

Bastila wrote:"Did you feel that? A disturbance in the Force. The Admiral has sent is message, the Dark Lord knows we are here now. Malak is coming... We better get moving. I can feel the darkness of Malak's presence approaching, and I don't want to be here when he arrives. None of us is a match for the Sith Lord."

In the Dark Wars, the dark side didn't just cloud the fact that Darth Nihilus, one of the most powerful Sith of all-time, was present:

The Conclave At Katarr Codex Entry wrote:Worse, many Jedi sensed a new Sith threat emerging but could not pinpoint the source. Finally, the Jedi Council called a conclave on the Miraluka colony of Katarr. The order’s Masters, including the legendary Vandar Tokare, gathered to discuss the possibility that the Sith had returned. They did not know that Darth Nihilus, a being of pure hunger and dark side power, was approaching the colony.

But it was literally strong enough that it caused palpable terror across the Republic so potent the Sith could feed on it:

The Essential Atlas wrote:The Sith seemed to have achieved the victory they had long sought. Less than one hundred Jedi, nearly all of them in hiding, survived the Sith's purge. Many citizens took this unimaginable event as proof that the Force had turned malevolent, or that cosmic balance was nothing more than a story for children. Despair was palpable, and many planets offered only halfhearted and ragged defense against Sith attackers. Planets throughout the slice surrendered, and the Sith fed on the psychic misery of a shattered Republic.

The dark side only grew, due to the Sith Triumvirate.

LadyKulvax wrote:Except the entire point here

I mean I still haven't gotten a response to this, and I think it's just being swept under with the rest of the discussion -

If Malak's power are far beyond Exar Kun, whatever those powers are, wouldn't he probably beat Exar Kun in a fight?

Especially if you think those powers involve literal nigh-invincibility!

is that him being 'nearly unstoppable', 'truly invincible',

Those adjectives could easily be consequences of an overall power increase.

is the most repeated and most important facet of the entire article.

No, it isn't.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603071915/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Yes, it questions whether it comes from his cybernetic life support, but that doesn't suggest that the powers have something to do with life support (which would be a candidate for the clunkiest interpretation of a line ever since it apparently wants to just mention "powers" without explaining that they're just all related to healing and durability, even though it doesn't even want to hide what the powers are since it lays out his powers right below) any more than noting Vader's powers being boosted by his life support suit (say they were) means he just got a breathing aid.

Yes, there is a single "damage reduction 5" ability that is somewhat alluded to be the result of the Star Forge, but there is also the paragraph here, as I noted:

Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

There's no indication that this is exclusively about healing and durability. In fact, that there's additional elaboration beyond that single damage reduction ability suggests the opposite.

You also seem to be conflating the mechanism of the powers with what the powers actually are. OK, so Malak draws power from captured Force users - what does that have to do with whether they enhance his overall power? You're assuming that drawing power from those Jedi means that Malak has to be mainly gaining a narrow set of healing/durability powers, which makes no sense - draining energy doesn't necessarily mean that you can only use that energy for those purposes. Indeed, we know from the sources I provided that the opposite is true.

So yes, Malak has greater powers than Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd had. I mean, of course he does. The Star Forge's knowledge gets wanked beyond the Sith necropolis of Malachor V:

So not only are the Triumvirate and MW!Vitiate >> Star Forge, I don't see any reason why Exar Kun isn't.

??? So first you say that "of course" the Star Forge is greater than Exar Kun, and then you proceed to argue the exact opposite?

Especially not on the basis of a quote that is, as you can see, far from being the most definitive quote we have. Especially not one that Cory himself says can be debunked by Kun having better game stats than Malak in more updated versions of the game. (The KotOR:CG does have Kun > Malak in stats)

So forgive me if I'm far from convinced when Kun has greater feats, accolades and scaling than Malak does, by a country mile.

My point was specifically in regards to your contention that the quote is "wide open" if we don't care about author statements. If you're just going to back to using said author statements and saying that the quote itself is illegitimate, that's a different argument. And in regards to that:

1. To my knowledge, those updated stats are not about Star Forge Malak (not that I take exact stat comparisons seriously).

2. How is it that you think "powers" used in a specified, named comparison is too ambiguous, but you think the word "threat" is a definitive comparison of applicable combative ability between Exar Kun and a hidden superweapon that was almost certainly not meant to be compared with (despite your own zeroing in on authorial intent)? Seriously, you're claiming that
-

Malak has powers far greater than Exar Kun,

is vague while:

Exar Kun is the biggest threat the galaxy as faced in centuries!

Is more definitive in showing that Exar Kun >>>> the Star Forge (which was lying dormant)? And right after saying "of course" it's true that the Star Forge is far beyond him?

You're trying to throw out one of the most definitive, blatant comparisons in the literature in favor of a multi-chain set of extrapolations based on definitions of the word "threat" and attempts to find loopholes in vague blanket statements.

@LadyKulvax Continous growth across an interval of time while simultaneously experiencing a drop in value is possible. Unfortunately i cannot add a picture that shows this. But if you're familiar with the concept of limits in calculus and how they are shown graphically then you'll know what I'm talking about. So what im postulating doesn't contradict the quote.

Does anyone besides Kulvax believing Kun could beat Malak?

Apologies for not partitioning my response, but my mobile is fvcking up at the moment.

So I suppose Traya giga-drain stomps everyone else because she knows of greater powers than most everyone else in the mythos? Yeah, having a few hacks techniques doesn't equate to being literally more powerful. Hence Revan killed him regardless.

Except it isn't consequences of an overall power increase. Malak can't be waxing poetic about how blind Revan was to the Star Forge's power when the actual amp to power growth the Star Forge gives is something Revan used to have to:



You seem to be conflating me conceding that Malak knew of greater knowledge with me stating that more than a few other Sith were more powerful than the Star Forge itself. I don't get your confusion here.

I'm not going back on not using Cory's author statements, I'm saying that in terms of the over-all picture, it literally contradicts everything else said in KotOR 1 & 2's own source material.

According to Beni's original reply to Ant on KMC on the matter, as well as all of the users that are now seeing that the Star Forge was a perma amp to Malak. This isn't relevant, he's the same whether he's on or off it, except for a more significant direct amp. So yes, such a contradiction is valuable here.

Now I will explain why I do find things different between the 'threat' and the 'far greater' quotes. Basically because it's down to interpretation. But no, the 'lying dormant' argue was tried by Ant, but I've proven that the Star Forge was within Vitiate's scope long before he sent Revan and Malak and he saw it as both a threat and a weapon. Now for the endgame.

The single greatest facet of power per Malak and the Databank is this:

Darth Malak wrote:[size=39]You continue to amaze me Revan. [/size][size=39]If only you had been the one to uncover the true power of the Star Forge you might have become truly invincible. But you were a fool. All you saw was an enormous factory.[/size][size=39]All you ever imagined was an infinite fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. [..][/size]

[size=39]The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference : I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. [/size][size=39]The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi![/size][size=39] And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy![/size]

The entire final battle is about preventing Malak from using the Jedi to replenish his life force. That was the point, Malak isn't calling him a fool because Darth Revan didn't know the power of the place, because Revan did. Revan even used it himself. He's calling him out because Revan didn't use it to 'become truly invincible'.

The actual quote clearly states:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

The question is where his undefined 'powers', which happen to be 'far greater' than Nadd's or Kun's, came from. One of the possible explanations being a hidden life support system. As you yourself put it, it'd make little sense for a compensation to an injury, a known detractor to one's power, to be a boost to one's Force power. Unless, of course, it isn't Force power it is referring to. Now obviously, if life support is providing him with 'far greater powers' then those powers may well be a reference to something else.

As the very same article says:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Malak ignores the first effects of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

It's the same question, how is Malak ignoring damage? This time is suggests that it could be due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the result of Sith alchemy to his person.

We know exactly what the answer is, the Star Forge. The powers that made Malak 'nearly unstoppable' came from the Star Forge. That is what those 'powers' are, that is why he can ignore damage, that is what the main plot-point which all three of the questions involved in the article are pointing at directly.

The Databank supports this outright. It doesn't say the Star Forge's power boost amp made him almost unstoppable. It directly credits sapping the Jedi's life force to replenish his own as what made him almost 'unstoppable':

Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

The Exar Kun accolade was added onto the Tales of the Jedi via the Omnibus for 2008. It wasn't just a random quote from the original release and it coincided with his accolade from TCSWE. Hence the fact that I take it with considerable weight. It's an all-encompassing accolade.

Do note that I'm not saying that the Malak quote excludes the amplification to his power growth, I'm saying it isn't the primary point. It never was. Given that context, I do not take it as a reason to say Malak was far more powerful for a guy on tier with DE Sheev and BFC Luke, the guy who has planetary and sector-wide feat scaling and a whole ton of other scaling to his name.

I guess Kun still one-shots then.

LadyKulvax wrote:So I suppose Traya giga-drain stomps everyone else because she knows of greater powers than most everyone else in the mythos? Yeah, having a few hacks techniques doesn't equate to being literally more powerful.

If a source said that Traya had "powers far greater than" a particular character, that would be a strong reason to believe that said character would not be able to overcome such powers, yes. If the character would just shrug the giga-drain off and one-shot her, as you think Exar Kun could to Malak's "invincibility", it would not make sense to say Traya's powers were far greater.

Your entire case is predicated on an incredibly clunky and deceptive interpretation of the quote that goes against everything we know about how sentences are constructed. If Exar Kun really "one shots" Malak, the statement that Malak has "powers far greater than even Exar Kun" would be embarrassingly misleading. This tactic of rationalizing a quote to the point where it actually becomes meaningless shouldn't be used unless if it's absolutely necessary, and it clearly isn't here because you can just acknowledge that Malak would win.

Hence Revan killed him regardless.

Or maybe Revan is just that powerful?

Except it isn't consequences of an overall power increase. Malak can't be waxing poetic about how blind Revan was to the Star Forge's power when the actual amp to power growth the Star Forge gives is something Revan used to have to:

That is worded as an in-universe opinion, and contains inaccurate information (Revan and Malak did not come up with the "Darth" title, as the Jedi were aware of the title before them).

And anyway, Malak only tells Revan that he doesn't know the real way to harness the Star Forge's power; it doesn't mean the specific benefit is some sort of healing/durability. It could be a matter of the magnitude of power amp, and indeed a quote was provided stating that Malak's power was growing.

You seem to be conflating me conceding that Malak knew of greater knowledge with me stating that more than a few other Sith were more powerful than the Star Forge itself. I don't get your confusion here.

You said that "of course" it was far greater, not just that Malak had more knowledge (which your own interpretation doesn't even seem to suggest because you're just saying that he's drawing life energy).

You want the quote to mean "Malak was far greater than Exar Kun in a specific area", but that's not a good faith interpretation of what the quote implies.

I'm not going back on not using Cory's author statements, I'm saying that in terms of the over-all picture, it literally contradicts everything else said in KotOR 1 & 2's own source material.

But you were just talking about what Cory said about how it could be debunked? Anyway -

According to Beni's original reply to Ant on KMC on the matter, as well as all of the users that are now seeing that the Star Forge was a perma amp to Malak. This isn't relevant, he's the same whether he's on or off it, except for a more significant direct amp. So yes, such a contradiction is valuable here.

If it's more significant then it's not the same?

The single greatest facet of power per Malak and the Databank is this:

Darth Malak wrote:[size=39]You continue to amaze me Revan. [/size][size=39]If only you had been the one to uncover the true power of the Star Forge you might have become truly invincible. But you were a fool. All you saw was an enormous factory.[/size][size=39]All you ever imagined was an infinite fleet rolling forth to crush the republic. [..][/size]

Malak says Revan just saw the industrial implications of it, which means that he does not think Revan harnessed its power amp - it does nothing to suggest that Revan harnessed a generic power amp but not specific Force techniques.

[size=39]The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference : I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. [/size][size=39]The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi![/size][size=39] And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy![/size]

[/quote]

He says that he can draw upon their power - why would this not have a huge effect on his overall power level? You seem to think that the vast majority of this benefit comes from healing or durability, but generally when a Force user draws on a Force power source, there is an overall increase in their Force power. E.g. with BM, lending Force energy, Force drain, etc.

The entire final battle is about preventing Malak from using the Jedi to replenish his life force. That was the point, Malak isn't calling him a fool because Darth Revan didn't know the power of the place, because Revan did. Revan even used it himself. He's calling him out because Revan didn't use it to 'become truly invincible'.

?? That's not true though, the "entire final battle" is not about preventing Malak from replenishing his life force, and "truly invincible" doesn't mean that he has a special durability power.

The actual quote clearly states:

You ignored the part of the article where it clearly states the amps of the mysterious power source in the form of Force feats and abilities, not a narrowly targeted durability/healing increase.

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

The question is where his undefined 'powers', which happen to be 'far greater' than Nadd's or Kun's, came from. One of the possible explanations being a hidden life support system. As you yourself put it, it'd make little sense for a compensation to an injury, a known detractor to one's power, to be a boost to one's Force power. Unless, of course, it isn't Force power it is referring to. Now obviously, if life support is providing him with 'far greater powers' then those powers may well be a reference to something else.

That's not what I was saying. I was noting the opposite - that it's possible for, say, Vader's life support cybernetics to enhance his strength, and that the reference to life support doesn't mean that "powers" refers to something directly related to healing.

Again, it's not a mystery what "powers" refers to - the article doesn't hide at all its benefits, just the narrative source. It does not indicate that it's some healing ability at all. There is a single ability that has to do with damage reduction, that's it.

As the very same article says:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Malak ignores the first effects of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

It's the same question, how is Malak ignoring damage? This time is suggests that it could be due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the result of Sith alchemy to his person.

We just discussed this. As I noted, you're taking a single ability in the article and pretending that it was a central part of the powers, yet the actual description of the effects of the powers refers to a broad, sweeping improvement in his Force abilities. If you're not being deceptive, you have probably forgotten what the article looks like:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603071915/https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak

Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

You're ignoring the provided quotes that refer to Malak growing more powerful overall. You haven't established that the primary effect of the Star Forge was healing, and even if it were, if it's something "far greater than Exar Kun" then Malak probably still wins anyway.

The Exar Kun accolade was added onto the Tales of the Jedi via the Omnibus for 2008. It wasn't just a random quote from the original release and it coincided with his accolade from TCSWE. Hence the fact that I take it with considerable weight. It's an all-encompassing accolade.

That doesn't address my point. The jump from "threat" to "combative power" is far, far, far murkier than the jump from "powers" (in a stat guide focused on combat) to "combative power". That you're trying to pick at the meaning of "powers" but credulously accept that "threat" refers to "who would win in a fight" is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, you're trying to draw some weird comparison between Exar Kun, a Sith Lord, and the Star Forge, a superweapon, as though the quote was supposed to include a quantification of Exar Kun's Force power relative to a superweapon. I suppose that quote also means Exar Kun can overcome the heat death of the universe, right? The dark side itself?

You're kidding yourself if you think that "far greater powers" -> "more powerful" is a stretch but "faces its biggest threat" -> "more Force power than a superweapon" is OK.

But no, the 'lying dormant' argue was tried by Ant, but I've proven that the Star Forge was within Vitiate's scope long before he sent Revan and Malak and he saw it as both a threat and a weapon.

So? Vitiate isn't the galaxy, and the quote refers to the threat that the galaxy faces. By that logic, Exar Kun is more powerful than the dark side itself too.

"The galaxy faces its greatest threat" does not reasonably include a dormant superweapon that Vitiate might've been aware of but never actually got his hands on. We know that it doesn't refer even to Vitiate himself, unless if you think Exar Kun is a greater threat than Vitiate, so the standards of how active the threat has to be to be included has to be pretty high. If Vitiate doesn't get included, the star forge certainly doesn't.

Except Traya's giga-drain is quite literally something you can't defend against. It's a very potent technique by itself. Regardless of how powerful the wielder is.

Malak doesn't win because he's not 'far greater' than a canonically Sheev tier combatant per a good six sources.

Heritage of the Sith is not an in-universe source, it is written as if in-universe, but the source itself is stated to be a 'definitive' source of information on the Sith. It contains information that no one in-universe could know. More importantly, it obviously knows what it is talking about because Drew Karpyshyn wrote it.

I said the powers i.e. knowledge/techniques gained are far greater because the Star Forge is the holy grail of Rakatan Force-powered tech.

The Databank literally says that Malak was nearly unstoppable due to his ability to replenish his own life force by draining Jedi of their's. That's exactly how Revan beat him.

What I said isn't that difficult, and I'm not ignoring that there was a proper boost to Malak's personal power via the Star Forge. I said in literally the next post that I recognise there was. But as I made clear, every primary source on the matter prioritises Malak's ability to keep draining life-force and essentially achieve virtual immortality.

The problem is that you are saying we should automatically assume that 'powers' means Malak's Force power. Yet that's exactly it, an assumption. What I am saying is that when you don't just jump to conclusions, then you have to analyse the text to see what the context provides. The question is simple, does a cybernetic life-support system amplify your Force powers? Obviously, not. Does hidden armor? Again obviously, not. So how does your interpretation make sense? Mine does. Furthermore, why would it repeat itself in the same paragraph when it's already referred to his own power separately literally a sentence prior and described it as 'devastating'? Why bother listing Freedon Nadd when Exar Kun is much more powerful, rendering Nadd redundant? 

The references are to the Star Forge, and the main plot-twist to the final boss of the Star Forge, per both Malak and the Databank, is Malak's newly-revealed ability to drain Jedi and gain their life force to replace what he loses in battle. Then the references to the possible explanations of life-support, hidden armor and physical enhancement via Sith alchemy as being responsible culprits, throughout the article, is clearly a reference designed not to spoil the end plot twist. But to still reflect and implement this within the character's adaptation to this game.

Malak doesn't still win, because it essentially delays the inevitable.

No, 'threat' does not equate to 'who would win in a fight. It is a blanket statement about being the biggest enemy the galaxy has faced in 20,000 years. But perhaps more importantly, the quote is practically a reworded restatement of this classic quote from the same source:

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

Beyond your incredulous appeals to a no-limits fallacy, as far as I can see, the quote is merely designed to say that as of 2008 the guy is still a big deal just as he was when the comics first came out. Kun's a big victim of power creep, but in 2008 they twice went out of their way to establish him as the primary powerhouse of his time via this Omnibus and the TCSWE entry for him.

Oh and the Empire wasn't only maybe aware of it at the time, they knew about all four Rakatan stations as they discovered them all in the first place:

The Foundry Codex Entry wrote:[size=31]The Foundry appears to be at least twenty to thirty thousand years old, built by a long-forgotten alien species. [/size][size=31]Its specifications resemble those of three other space stations discovered by the Empire, each possessing vast power–one, the “Star Forge,” constructed fleets of warships, while another was capable of xenoforming entire planets.[/size][size=31] The extent of the Foundry’s production capabilities are as yet unknown, but if history is any guide, the station could change the galaxy.[/size]

It literally even refers to the stations as galaxy changing, in other words a threat to the galaxy's status quo.

Oh and given all indications in terms of feats, standings, accolades and scalings, there's a strong argument to be made for Kun > Vitiate at this time anyway. Vitiate doesn't even get a proper quote confirming that he may be > Kun until 350 years after Kun's ascension and imprisonment.

I could go on about all the reasons why Kun > Vitiate is very plausible, but I'd prefer to save time.

LadyKulvax wrote:Except Traya's giga-drain is quite literally something you can't defend against. It's a very potent technique by itself. Regardless of how powerful the wielder is.

So Traya > Luke?