Exar Kun vs Darth Malak

NotAA3 wrote:@LadyKulvax It's incredible to me that you still hold to these arguments despite not being able to convince a single soul.

Well it's debatably malleable given it clearly sets a larger OOU timeline reference at the start. 

But no, it means Exar Kun is a bigger threat than the Star Forge and arguably the Emperor given that he existed as of 2008 on SWTOR's website under the original 'The Sith Empire' article.

Though, as I said earlier, it clearly covers the Star Forge, the source of Malak's power growth which is what the web enhancement is referring to with its question.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:They literally started rage quitting towards the end or refused to counter my posts. Lmfao. Stop pretending you even know what debates I'm talking about.

Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume 2 wrote:Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!

GGWP

Is this the whole quote? Because I fail to see how this would apply to threats after Exar Kun

Or why "greatest threat" isn't referring to Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith but Kun specifically.

Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

LadyKulvax wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:@LadyKulvax It's incredible to me that you still hold to these arguments despite not being able to convince a single soul.

That assumes I care about convincing anyone.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Well it's debatably malleable given it clearly sets a larger OOU timeline reference at the start. 

The time-frame reference is from the founding of the Republic to 4000 BBY, ergo "since the founding of the Republic."

But no, it means Exar Kun is a bigger threat than the Star Forge and arguably the Emperor given that he existed as of 2008 on SWTOR's website under the original 'The Sith Empire' article.

Neither Vitiate's Sith Empire nor the Star Forge were active threats that the galaxy had to face yet. The quote isn't referring to dormant threats.

"Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!"

Though, as I said earlier, it clearly covers the Star Forge, the source of Malak's power growth which is what the web enhancement is referring to with its question.

I'm not sure how you could quantify Exar Kun vs the Star Forge anyway. 

And again, why is the quote referring specifically to Exar Kun rather than the whole Brotherhood of the Sith and Great Sith War that killed trillions?

DC77 wrote:This thread is now bookmarked.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

2.Yeah the emphasis is absolutely not on 'faces' in that quote. That they are facing him isn't relevant to the latter statement that he's the greatest threat to the galaxy ever at this point. It's not limited by that wording at all.

Consider this statement here: "The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002." (in reference to a student bringing in a knife to school)

This statement wouldn't include the giant flesh-eating monster hiding in the basement if the school had yet to discover and confront the monster yet.

LadyKulvax wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

You do realise that whether or not it is only him or the brotherhood as a whole, it doesn't really matter, right? He's so far above the rest of the Brotherhood that the Jedi saw that even after they'd easily taken out Ulic on Coruscant, with literally just Vodo and Nomi and a few nubs, they decide they have to attack Kun with the entire Jedi Order using their most devastating power and effectively base delta zero Yavin IV to stop Kun.

LadyKulvax wrote:That assumes that the ignorance of the school is relevant when the source is OOU. Nor does that work in your favor. Because the galaxy is aware of the Star Forge, because the Emperor literally tells Revan and Malak about it to go and find it. Clearly he is aware of it prior to that point through some source and knows how immensely threatening it is to him, given Revan himself knows he can use it to stop Vitiate's Empire.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Because sources state he is 'far more powerful' than anyone else and the most dangerous Sith of all time up to this point. It's almost a restatement at this point.

I'm not following. That has no bearing on whether the quote is referring to him or his entire Sith organization and their machinations as a whole.

And if you look at the next line in the blurb, the emphasis is definitely more on the war as a whole than just Exar Kun:

Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Galactic Republic.

In a time when Jedi were numerous and the Sith Empire but a bitter memory, an ancient evil rose again, corrupting one of the Jedi’s finest and igniting a war that ravaged worlds. The Sith were reborn, ties of friendship and family were betrayed, and the course of the galaxy's future is forever altered.

You do realise that whether or not it is only him or the brotherhood as a whole, it doesn't really matter, right? He's so far above the rest of the Brotherhood that the Jedi saw that even after they'd easily taken out Ulic on Coruscant, with literally just Vodo and Nomi and a few nubs, they decide they have to attack Kun with the entire Jedi Order using their most devastating power and effectively base delta zero Yavin IV to stop Kun.

Exar Kun isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of Sith and warships killing trillions across countless worlds.

Darth Sidious isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of armies and warships killing trillions across countless worlds. Yeah, because all of that happened without a centralfigure causing it all.

They have a few hundred Sith at most, and given that the war and brotherhood needs to be instigated by Kun to become such a threat anyway, it's really not true. Kun at his height doesn't have any allies but the entire Jedi Order turns up when five of them went to take down the only serious contender for Kun there was in Ulic.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:That assumes that the ignorance of the school is relevant when the source is OOU. Nor does that work in your favor. Because the galaxy is aware of the Star Forge, because the Emperor literally tells Revan and Malak about it to go and find it. Clearly he is aware of it prior to that point through some source and knows how immensely threatening it is to him, given Revan himself knows he can use it to stop Vitiate's Empire.

No, that's not relevant. My statement, "[size=33]The school faces its greatest challenge since 2002," can be read from an OOU and still be just as true.[/size]

[size=33]And Revan and Malak had already found information on the Star Forge prior to meeting Vitiate. Gnost-Dural's account suggesting Vitiate directed them to find the Star Forge isn't reliable. Regardless, the galaxy never even faced the threat of the Star Forge yet -- especially not ramped up to degree that Malak did -- not to mention, again, there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships. [/size]

The Foundry Codex Entry wrote:The Foundry appears to be at least twenty to thirty thousand years old, built by a long-forgotten alien species. Its specifications resemble those of three other space stations discovered by the Empire, each possessing vast power–one, the “Star Forge,” constructed fleets of warships, while another was capable of xenoforming entire planets. The extent of the Foundry’s production capabilities are as yet unknown, but if history is any guide, the station could change the galaxy.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Darth Sidious isn't a greater threat to the galaxy than the collective force of tens of thousands of armies and warships killing trillions across countless worlds. Yeah, because all of that happened without a centralfigure causing it all.

Unfortunately, I'm not following. Though I will say that if the quote referred to the Galactic Empire, I would contest any scaling off Palpatine likewise. 

They have a few hundred Sith at most, and given that the war and brotherhood needs to be instigated by Kun to become such a threat anyway, it's really not true. Kun at his height doesn't have any allies but the entire Jedi Order turns up when five of them went to take down the only serious contender for Kun there was in Ulic.

The images related to the Dark Reaper conflict show hundreds of dark Jedi on a single battlefield. But, I'll go with your few hundreds number:

(A) Those "few hundred Sith," the Krath, the Mandalorians, Corsair, Dark Reaper, and related forces led to the deaths of "trillions" and the destruction of many planets.

(B) Exar Kun, by his own hand, converted twenty-some Jedi to the dark side and killed a few Jedi.

In terms of whether A or B actualized a greater threat to the galaxy on a physical level -- which is what you're arguing -- it's clearly not Kun. And, unless you want to argue Kun's own raw destructive powers could eclipse that of all his forces combined, his potential threat-level isn't greater than his Empire's either. (Note that the Dark Reaper could destroy armies with a single attack and the Corsair could destroy solar systems if manipulated properly, so that would be a very contentious claim). 

And the kicker is that the quote refers to the threat-level of Kun, all his forces, and all his super-weapons.

Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia wrote:He and Malak had found something. He couldn’t remember what it was, or where it was, but he feared it on a deep, primal level. Somehow he knew that whatever the terrible secret might be, it was a threat far greater than the Mandalorians or the Star Forge. And Revan was convinced it was still out there.

Dark Apprentice wrote:While the New Republic struggles to decide what to do with the deadly Sun Crusher—a new doomsday weapon stolen from the Empire by Han Solo—the renegade Imperial Admiral Daala uses her fleet of Star Destroyers to conduct guerrilla warfare on peaceful planets. And now she threatens the watery homeworld of Admiral Gial Ackbar.
But as the battle for a planet rages, an even greater danger arises at Luke Skywalker's Jedi academy. A brilliant student delves dangerously into the dark side of the Force and unleashes the spirit of an ancient master of the evil order that warped Darth Vader himself. Working together, they may become an enemy greater than any the New Republic has ever fought… more powerful than even a Jedi Master can face.

Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

Flunky Cyborg wrote:Butt out King, Gods are debating, we mortals cannot comprehend this genius.

But the ignorance of the school is irrelevant in an OOU source that references all of time since the Republic's founding and across the entire galaxy.

You're wrong, Gnost-Dural isn't the only source. The Empire discovered the Star Forge first, Revan and Malak were merely sent to recover it in secret on the Emperor's behalf.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

But the ignorance of the school is irrelevant in an OOU source that references all of time since the Republic's founding and across the entire galaxy.

The fact it references all of time or spans the galaxy has no bearing to my point. And it's not a matter of ignorance on the school. It's a matter of the school never confronting the threat of the basement flesh-eating monster in the first place, so the monster wasn't factored into the list of "crazy threats that the school has faced."

You're wrong, Gnost-Dural isn't the only source. The Empire discovered the Star Forge first, Revan and Malak were merely sent to recover it in secret on the Emperor's behalf.

That's . . . a stretch? We know Revan and Malak were following the clues to the Star Forge even before they met Vitiate:



And we know they continued afterwards (hence reports of seeing Revan on Dantooine after his disappearance). 

It follows that Vitiate learned of the existence of the Star Forge after peering in Revan's head and then directed him to finish his journey, rather than the Sith knowing about it all along and waiting for two random fallen Jedi to retrieve it for them. And none of this addresses the more pressing point that "there's no way to actually quantify the "threat-level" of Exar Kun versus the "threat-level" of a Force-imbued space station that can produce limitless warships."