Re: Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only)

November 5th 2019, 11:09 am

pretty much that ^^ thanks man. i even have a quote for vader surpassing some of the disadvantages of the suit too.

November 5th 2019, 2:32 pm

Meatpants wrote:
Addressing your accolades/Vader-Maul arguments first.

I'll only touch on this briefly since I don't think accolades are really the meat of Qui-Gon's casel. There's no evidence Galen Marek is nearly as skilled as Qui-Gon. He's mastered all forms of lightsaber combat:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

Where in that quote does it say that Qui Gon "mastered all forms of lightsaber combat?" The quote itself is commenting on Jinn's rebellious personality being the reason he learned "untraditional combat forms" alongside "classical fighting techniques" the latter presumably referencing the area that Dooku devoted his focus to. Not that he had mastered all of the same techniques that his master had.

That'd be like saying a mixed martial artist who had mastered some of the same techniques that a master of Taekwondo had before switching their focus to Karate and Jiu-Jitso possesses the same level of skill and knowledge in Taekwondo as that master. I.E. your interpretation of the quote is a misreading of the text in an attempt to attribute a greater skills to Jinn then he actually possesses.

Even if your interpretation were correct, I don't see why such an accolade would be better, let alone significantly better, than SK having "nearly perfected lightsaber combat" which implies near peak mastery of all forms. I brought this up in my last post and I'm bringing it up again here because you failed to address it in your response.

Meatpants wrote:
His experience gives him an edge that Maul can't entirely counter with his skill (noting that Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in galactic history and trained to be an ultimate Jedi killer by Sidious himself):

His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

--TPM Novelisation

I think showing the surrounding context to the quote and highlighting exactly what it said might help us gain some better insight. Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 228124001

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 228124001

"The Sith Lord he battled with Obi-Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger. Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him. Obi-Wan brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened. Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate." TPM Novelization.

The text goes out of his way to highlight Maul's superiority to Qui Gon in several areas before clarifying that Qui Gon's "edge," to the extent that he even possessed one, was knowledge that would help him to deal with Maul's assault. I have doubts that this is actually comparing him to Maul though considering the text immediately references Obi Wan possessing the youth and stamina that Jinn does not but not the experience.

Either way, the quote doesn't reference Jinn's experience as being something Maul's skill can't overcome. It's simply being referenced as something that is helping Jinn to deal with Maul's assault when working together with Obi Wan to fend him off.

Meatpants wrote:
And Qui-Gon is virtually as deadly as TPM Mace Windu (and thus approximately Jedi Dooku) with a lightsaber as well:

His [Mace Windu’s] fighting style is graceful and precise, albeit a bit deadlier than Qui-Gon.”

--Prima's Star Wars Episode I Jedi Power Battles Guide.

Nowhere does the quote say Qui Gon is "virtually as deadly" as Windu... It simply states that Mace's fighting style is graceful and precise and that he's deadlier then Qui Gon to an unspecified degree.

If the quote had something along the lines of "albeit a little bit deadlier than Qui Gon" then I could see a case being made for potential parity between the two but the "bit" referenced in the quote could just as easily mean "albeit a fair bit deadlier than Qui Gon" which would suggest a far more significant gap between the two. The term "bit" only implies that there is indeed a difference between the two's deadliness and that that gap favors Windu.

Meatpants wrote:
Mace Windu and Dooku as of TPM being the best lightsaber duelists in the Order bar Yoda. Not to mention Qui-Gon has fenced Dooku "thousands of times" per Dooku himself. This guy is well and beyond people like Shaak Ti.

And yes, TPM Maul is superior to Galen Marek and TFU Vader as a duelist.

I'm sorry, but are you trying to suggest that because a master and apprentice fenced often this somehow puts the apprentice on the master's level? Could you elaborate on your logic there for me?

Great. I'd love to hear your reasons for why you put Maul above them.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:SK possesses vastly greater power in the Force which logically means he possesses superior physical augmentation to Jinn making him; faster stronger and more durable than Jinn.

So that's why it takes Maul over half a minute to whittle down Qui-Gon in a lightsaber duel, despite having more raw power potential than Sidious? I think your logic here is making Qui-Gon look better more than anything. No, your power in the Force doesn't automatically make your augmentation better. Aug is a skill that has to be trained and developed. If it wasn't, then AOTC Anakin should be able to blitz Yoda based on having infinitely more raw power than Yoda.

Just to get something misleading out of the way, the "over half a minute" you're referencing is 0:29-1:04 in their first solo fight ( 35 seconds ) and 2:33-3:03 in their second solo fight ( exactly 30 seconds ).

Also, I believe you misunderstood my point here. I referenced Galen's power in the Force as logically providing him with significantly greater levels of Force augmentation than Jinn. Not his potential. A Force user's employable power derives from their potential of course, but also their training. Galen's employable power in TFU, while prodigious, was nowhere near what it would have eventually become had he achieved his potential.

Moving on, you made several assertions that I find nebulous at best.

1. "it takes Maul over half a minute to whittle down Qui-Gon in a lightsaber duel, despite having more raw power potential than Sidious?"

Where is it ever stated that Maul possesses "greater raw power potential" than Sidious?

2. "No, your power in the Force doesn't automatically make your augmentation better."

Uh, yes it does. The ability to augment your physicals with the Force derives from your employable power and your skill with the ability.

3. "If it wasn't, then AOTC Anakin should be able to blitz Yoda based on having infinitely more raw power than Yoda."

Your mistake here is that you're confusing a character's employable raw power with their Force potential.

---

All of this however is tangential to the actual point. Jinn having to exhaust his Force reserves in order to last against Maul for 30 seconds does not suggest he possesses equivalent levels of standard Force augmentation to someone like Galen. In fact, it doesn't even suggest he could maintain such augmented levels against Galen for the 30 seconds that he did against Maul.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:If you want to argue that a character can have similar levels of Force augmentation and still be vastly inferior as a Force user ( ala Obi Wan and Dooku ) then we can simply compare their best feats directly.

Except that's exactly how Qui-Gon was keeping up with Maul's speed and matching his strength augmentation despite being weaker in the Force.

Nah, that was done by drawing so heavily on his reserves of Force energy to last for 30 seconds against Maul that he was left gasping on the floor like a dying fish and was severely impacted hours to days later.

They found Qui-Gon in a dusty heap just inside the entry, covered with sweat and breathing hard. I've never seen him in such bad shape after a fight!

-

Through the sheets of laser fire, Obi-Wan saw Qui-Gon calmly sit and begin to meditate. He tried not to think about just how badly his Master might need that rest. After the fight on Tatooine, Qui-Gon had been nearly exhausted.

-

Qui Gon after his 30 second encounter with Maul on Tatooine:

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 Tenor

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 Tenor

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:- Jinn shatters a sword with his lightsaber. SK leaves dents in durasteel hulls with his punches and throws TIE fighters.

- Jinn blocks blaster fire from two droidekas with Obi Wan briefly before running away. SK blocks blaster fire from entire armies before destroying them.

How is that not totally misrepresentative? Qui-Gon's "best feat" isn't shattering a sword over ten years before TPM, it's matching Maul in a duel and giving him a good fight. Pre-TPM Maul without his augmentation has INSANE strength feats; add on augmentation and this guy is ridiculously strong, and Qui-Gon was matching his strength. THAT is one of Qui-Gon's best feats.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength.... Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Lol. You have the gall to claim I've misrepresented something when you're attempting to pass off Jinm's encounter with Maul on Tatooine as "matching him."

You're a bold one, I'll give you that.

I hope these "INSANE strength feats" you're referencing don't come from the Lockdown novel where we're shown Maul actively augmenting himself.

How exactly does "meeting Maul's strength" and Maul commenting that his "blows still have power" translate to Jinn being equally as strong as him? It sounds like Maul was simply impressed that Qui Gon was able to continue to fend him off as well as he did through his fatigue. You know, something that might be indicated by him actively saying that?

"He meets my strength.... Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power." - Episode I Journal: Darth Maul.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:- Jinn is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber and falls to the floor dead. SK is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber, slammed repeatedly into durasteel walls, thrown into the vacuum of space and left floating there for an extended period of time and survives. Oh, and is confirmed to have been made more durable after the fact.

You mean the Qui-Gon who was on the verge of exhaustion, meditated for a few minutes, fought harder than he's ever fought in his life, then got exhausted again and stabbed through the midsection? And is 60 years old? Hmm...

The funniest bit is that Kenobi didn't reference the Theed duel where he was aiding his master as being the culprit for Jinn's exhaustion but rather his master's solo duel with Maul on Tatooine implying that even the hours of meditation Jinn logically underwent on the journey from Tatooine to Coruscant and Coruscant to Naboo weren't enough to prevent his Force reserves from being depleted so significantly that he instantly died from the same wound that only downed Galen momentarily. So either the gap between Maul and Jinn is just that incredible or his Force enhanced durability isn't on the level of Galen Marek right after the Felucia mission who we see in very similar, if not worse, circumstances than Jinn after defeating Ti.

"Out of the sarlacc's reach, he lay facedown for a moment on the heaving ground. He was dusty, bleeding, and sore all over, but he was alive. Slowly, gingerly, testing every limb for grazes and cuts that might become infected in Felucia's febrile air, he rolled over onto his back."

-

"His combat uniform was rent in a dozen new places, and blood leaked from as many small wounds." - The Force Unleashed.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:SK has far greater reserves of Force energy which would allow him to remain fresh long after Qui Gon had used his up.

This is assuming Starkiller's saber augmentation can match Qui-Gon's. Remember, you haven't proven that his augmentation - or even TFU Vader's - is up to scratch with TPM Maul.

I've already provided SK's best feats. Physically ragdolling a TIE fighter, leaving dents in durasteel hulls and blocking blaster fire from armies. You have yet to provide a single feat of TPM Maul's or even proved that Jinn has equivalent speed or strength to Maul. The ball is in YOUR court.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Just to compare, SK participated in a marathon duel that lasted hours in his first ever duel against Vader. Jinn had to lie on the ground after his 30 second encounter with Maul on Tatooine with Obi Wan believing that that brief engagement was still affecting him significantly many hours later.

"The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's life, Vader had displayed no anger at all- just determination, not to kill his apprentice, but to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours." - The Force Unleashed II.

I find it ironic that the quote you provided here says Vader is not trying to kill his apprentice but wear him down. On the other hand, Maul was in a "killing frenzy" that "promised no-quarter" on Tatooine. Anyway, you're making a false equivalency. Qui-Gon was burnt out in 30 seconds because he was facing Maul.

Do you think that if he was sparring Kit Fisto or Shaak Ti he'd burn out in 30 seconds? Maul forces him to give it his all, with utter concentration, pouring everything into his aug and mind to keep up on an even level, and that burns him out.

If Starkiller went up against the Emperor in a lightsaber duel (where the Emperor was actually trying to kill him) he'd be exhausted very quickly into the fight after his reserves were exhausted trying to match Sidious' augmentation.

And yes, this does happen in the mythos. AOTC Anakin had to spend his reserves lavishly and inefficiently to keep up with Dooku, Maul was exhausted after his duel with Sidious in TCW while Sidious remained fresh etc. This is a common misconception with Qui-Gon that needs to be stamped out. Age is hardly ever a relevant factor in a duel, contrary to some belief. Look at Sidious and Yoda. Everyone gets exhausted when their reserves run out.

---

You'll need to prove that Starkiller and Vader are on par with the likes of TPM Maul in lightsaber combat.

The quote I provided states that Vader was determined to wear his apprentice into submission. Something he wasn't able to accomplish until they had fought for many hours. While I agree that Vader would not be able to exhaust Starkiller as quickly without lethal intentions, the fact remains that Galen lasted against a Vader that was trying to exhaust him for hours whereas Jinn lasted against Maul for 35 seconds before collapsing. The difference between 35 seconds and even the most lowballed number we can take from hours ( that "s" at the end making it multiple hours meaning at least two ) is over 200 times longer then Maul and Jinn's duel. In and of itself that's ridiculous but it becomes exponentially more insane when you realize this was Vader and Galen's "first duel" which likely means he was a child at the time.

If it was a spar in which Fisto or Shaak Ti were specifically trying to exhaust him, then probably not much longer then that. We already have examples of Jinn growing exhausted during spars to the point that he was physically shaking.

"Tahl's face was a mask. She had gone deep within herself, past her exhaustion to a place of sheer will. Qui-Gon had never felt so tired. His arm muscles shook. His legs felt watery. They trembled." - Jedi Apprentice: The Death of Hope.

Probably. I don't see what that has to do with Jinn and TPM Maul though. Sidious decades after RotS is obviously vastly superior to the likes of TPM Maul.

I never made the claim that Jinn's age was a significant factor. I actually agree that it's not since the vast majority of the energy of any Force user worth their salt is going to come from their power in the Force and not their physical forms.

Alright, my simple assertion is this. Anakin as of RotS already has technical skill on or above the level of TPM Maul. Spending nearly two decades hunting down some of the Order's best Jedi would only increase his knowledge and experience as a lightsaber combatant and improve his technical skills. As for physicals, being faster than Kenobi a year after RotS and any of his best strength and durability feats are better than anything Maul has as of TPM. Starkiller fought evenly with this version of Vader despite being more exhausted than he'd even been to the point that he was physically shaking moments before engaging him. Your move.

---

Edit: Somehow this completely slipped my mind when I made both my posts but it bears mentioning that Maul was injured in both of Jinn's approximately 30 second duels with him.

"But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge.

-

It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." - Episode I Journal: Darth Maul.

Maul admits that Jinn proves a challenge but attributes this to a wound. While he notes it is "almost imperceptible" he also seems to feel that it has affected him to a significant enough degree that Jinn would not pose a challenge to him if it were not present.

"Beyond, the Sith worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing. He was backed to the edge of the chamber beyond, keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon, his red and black face intense, his yellow eyes glinting in the half light. His lightsaber rested on the floor before him. He saw Obi-Wan staring at him and smiled in open derision." - TPM Novelization.

Considering an "almost imperceptible" wound was enough to provide Maul with a notable disadvantage, one can imagine how "a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears" would effect him.

November 5th 2019, 3:45 pm

better than i couldve done. good job lol

November 5th 2019, 7:48 pm

I'd say Qui Gon is more skilled, but because of aug and other factors I give it to Lord Starkiller both rounds

November 10th 2019, 4:40 am

@Syndiciate

I'll be going into this extensively in my debate with HP, so I'm gonna focus on summarising core points specifically about Qui-Gon.

It doesn't matter how you interpret the quote about Qui-Gon mastering the same classical techniques Dooku did; he remains one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Order, and his skill, speed and strength all impressed Maul, a canonically tier 8 fighter trained by Sidious and one of the most highly trained Sith in history at age 23.
Addressing Starkiller's "almost perfected lightsaber combat" quote, I think you're taking a Prima Guide quote hyper-literally to argue he's virtually perfected all the forms of lightsaber combat. Even if we agreed on Starkiller being a virtual perfect master of all forms of lightsaber combat, so what? Anakin was a better duelist than Dooku despite not being nearly as close as Dooku in theoretical knowledge and skill with a blade, Qui-Gon was a better duelist than Anoon Bondara, a Weaponmaster who is confirmed as specialising in Juyo and is trained in Jar'Kai, saberstaffs and other forms of combat, despite Qui-Gon arguably only knowing Ataru etc. Kenobi is a better duelist than Cin Drallig, despite the latter's better theoretical knowledge etc. And really, the idea of Starkiller having theoretical knowledge of lightsaber combat comparable to figures such as Mace Windu, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious and Maul is absolutely laughable.
I said Qui-Gon's experience gave him an edge Maul can't "entirely overcome" with his skill, experience being a subset of skill. So in terms of experience, Jinn has the advantage. In terms of theoretical training, Maul has the advantage. And yes, it does provide a noticeable edge to Jinn being able to keep up, being able to predict Maul's moves and so forth. Considering Jinn is so experienced he can predict Juyo movements from one of the most technically skilled Sith in history isn't an edge to scoff at. Lastly, this experience edge isn't contingent on Kenobi being present either.
From Merriam-Webster online dictionary, 'bit' in this context is "something small or unimportant/an indefinite usually small degree, extent, or amount". So yeah, Windu is a little deadlier with a lightsaber than Qui-Gon. Btw, TPM Windu has "mastered Jedi lightsaber combat"; the fact that Qui-Gon is comparable to him and Dooku in the "deadliness" of how he wields a lightsaber is impressive.
I mentioned the fencing as an aside, not for the suggestion that this means Qui-Gon is on Dooku/Wndu's level. But Dooku even as a newly minted Knight (and only just beginning to train Qui-Gon) was considered one of the best duelists in the Order and had already developed his own unique style of Makashi. However, training with someone like Dooku (a noted legendary instructor), Windu or Yoda is obviously a lot better for your experience and skills compared to a Master who only trained in Niman, for example. So yes, obviously getting thousands of hours of one-on-one training with one of the best duelists to ever live would have an impact on Qui-Gon's skills, knowledge and experience.
You agree that Jinn's age shouldn't be a significant factor whilst also claiming that someone like Shaak Ti or Fisto who are a whole tier below Maul canonically could exhaust Jinn just the same for some reason. Neither Shaak Ti nor Kit Fisto possess any demonstration comparable to Jinn forcing a tier 8 fighter to go full throttle to take him down.
Maul's leg injury would be noticeable, but not enough to justify a massive disparity in how the battle would have played out differently, especially since Maul had the advantage of getting the jump on Qui-Gon, who according to the databank was "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel.
RotS Anakin does not have skill at or above TPM Maul. Anakin is the best Djem So user Dooku has ever seen, granted, but it's extremely doubtful and unfounded that Anakin is noticeably skilled in other forms relative to even someone like Anoon Bondara or Cin Drallig. Maul is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, Jar'Kai and the use of the saberstaff. He's got better theoretical knowledge and training for saber combat. He was also trained by Sidious himself remorselessly.

November 10th 2019, 4:44 am

By the way, the example you gave for Jinn getting exhausted in spars is from BEFORE he was even Dooku's apprentice Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1076326320

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1076326320

you know, about 50 years before TPM. Anyone gets exhausted during a protracted duel by the way.

November 10th 2019, 5:29 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Syn ragdolling.

November 10th 2019, 5:49 am

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Syn ragdolling.

Hush, big boys are talking right now.

November 10th 2019, 6:38 am

Salt boys.*

November 10th 2019, 6:43 am

If you've got anything to address in my post, please do so.

November 10th 2019, 6:44 am

Meatpants you really need to let go of Gillard’s tiering shit bud it’s not canonical and it’s making you look desperate

November 10th 2019, 6:59 am

November 10th 2019, 7:20 am

Don’t cry bud, I didn’t mean for it to be personal

November 10th 2019, 7:25 am

Too late

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1220391476

November 10th 2019, 7:52 am

Uhh, didn’t Mace only mastered Vapaad after AotC?

November 10th 2019, 8:06 am

Pretty sure it's the emotional part. Regardless, TPM Windu has "mastered Jedi lightsaber combat" and is on par with Dooku. So my argument still stands.

November 10th 2019, 5:11 pm

Meatpants wrote:By the way, the example you gave for Jinn getting exhausted in spars is from BEFORE he was even Dooku's apprentice you know, about 50 years before TPM. Anyone gets exhausted during a protracted duel by the way.

So your counter to me pointing out that Jedi have grown exhausted from sparring each other despite not possessing lethal intentions is that... They do in fact get exhausted from sparring each other?

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1668617588

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1668617588

Thanks for the concession I guess.

November 10th 2019, 5:44 pm

Addressing Starkiller's "almost perfected lightsaber combat" quote, I think you're taking a Prima Guide quote hyper-literally to argue he's virtually perfected all the forms of lightsaber combat.

Given that your entire case for Plagueis in your opener rested on taking a commonly used English phrase hyper-literally, I'd say this is a tad ironic.

November 10th 2019, 5:45 pm

Also, the quote is from TCSWE, not the Prima Guide.

November 10th 2019, 7:41 pm

@Syndiciate

No... your evidence for Shaak Ti or Kit Fisto exhausting Jinn in a spar "not much longer" than the fight against Maul was evidenced using a spar from when Qui-Gon was ten years old. Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 1220391476

Note that Qui-Gon and Tahl were iirc noted as virtually equals in combat around this time. Shaak Ti and Ki Fisto are not Qui-Gon's equals at all.

There are other things I forgot to address, if you want me to do so just reiterate them or list them.

November 10th 2019, 7:50 pm

Meatpants wrote:

It doesn't matter how you interpret the quote about Qui-Gon mastering the same classical techniques Dooku did; he remains one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Order, and his skill, speed and strength all impressed Maul, a canonically tier 8 fighter trained by Sidious and one of the most highly trained Sith in history at age 23.

I mean, it matters insofar as it's relevant to his knowledge of the other lightsaber forms and his ability to counter them. While Jinn shares similar accolades to many of his era's top duelists, the context in which Maul found him impressive should be noted. Maul found Jinn impressive insofar as he was able to last against him for 30 seconds when he possessed an injury that he felt slowed him to a noticeable degree. That does not put him on Maul's level.

The fact that Jinn collapsed onto the floor as soon as he disengaged with Maul and that both he and Kenobi worried over the outcome had the the ship arrived any later than they did should clue you in to the fact that the performance Jinn gave on Tatooine is about as well as he could hope to do against Maul on his own.

"Without waiting to see whether the pilot obeyed, Obi-Wan started for the main hall. The young boy followed him. They found Qui-Gon in a dusty heap just inside the entry, covered with sweat and breathing hard. I've never seen him in such bad shape after a fight! If we hadn't gotten to him when we did..." - TPM Junior Novelization.

-

"He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome." - TPM Novelization.

Meatpants wrote:

Addressing Starkiller's "almost perfected lightsaber combat" quote, I think you're taking a Prima Guide quote hyper-literally to argue he's virtually perfected all the forms of lightsaber combat. Even if we agreed on Starkiller being a virtual perfect master of all forms of lightsaber combat, so what? Anakin was a better duelist than Dooku despite not being nearly as close as Dooku in theoretical knowledge and skill with a blade, Qui-Gon was a better duelist than Anoon Bondara, a Weaponmaster who is confirmed as specialising in Juyo and is trained in Jar'Kai, saberstaffs and other forms of combat, despite Qui-Gon arguably only knowing Ataru etc. Kenobi is a better duelist than Cin Drallig, despite the latter's better theoretical knowledge etc. And really, the idea of Starkiller having theoretical knowledge of lightsaber combat comparable to figures such as Mace Windu, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious and Maul is absolutely laughable.

The quote actually comes from "The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia" but putting that to the side, how else do you think the quote should be interpreted?

Assuming the skill gap between these individuals wasn't particularly significant, we would reasonably come to the conclusion that the factor which allowed individuals with inferior technical skills to perform as they did against their opponents was superior Force augmentation. Something we know was true in Dooku's duel with Anakin. As I've mentioned before, I do not believe superior Force augmentation is an advantage Jinn enjoys against Marek.

Why would it be laughable for Galen to have skill on the level of someone like Maul? Galen literally has access to the largest database of lightsaber knowledge in the galaxy via PROXY and we know that he had been trained for a similar number of years as Maul.

Honestly, it just sounds like you're employing double standards in order to suit your arguments.

Meatpants wrote:

I said Qui-Gon's experience gave him an edge Maul can't "entirely overcome" with his skill, experience being a subset of skill. So in terms of experience, Jinn has the advantage. In terms of theoretical training, Maul has the advantage. And yes, it does provide a noticeable edge to Jinn being able to keep up, being able to predict Maul's moves and so forth. Considering Jinn is so experienced he can predict Juyo movements from one of the most technically skilled Sith in history isn't an edge to scoff at. Lastly, this experience edge isn't contingent on Kenobi being present either.

And your claim that Maul is "not able to entirely overcome" Jinn in their second duel is only true as a result of Kenobi being present. His experience is only relevant insofar as it's the only edge he possesses and is what is even allowing him to keep up in the first place.

Meatpants wrote:

From Merriam-Webster online dictionary, 'bit' in this context is "something small or unimportant/an indefinite usually small degree, extent, or amount". So yeah, Windu is a little deadlier with a lightsaber than Qui-Gon. Btw, TPM Windu has "mastered Jedi lightsaber combat"; the fact that Qui-Gon is comparable to him and Dooku in the "deadliness" of how he wields a lightsaber is impressive.

That's one of the definitions, yes. Alternative definitions from Merriam-Webster include "an indefinite degree/extent/amount" with the Oxford dictionary giving the same:

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 NLV1Au6

Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 NLV1Au6

Colloquially people have used term "bit" in order to establish some sort of gap or difference with a qualifier such as "small" or "fair" being placed in front of it in order to establish the exact difference. Considering the quote we're discussing goes out of its way to establish a gap between Jinn and Mace when it didn't have to, it would be somewhat redundant to do so if the gap that existed between them was insignificant making the your interpretation unlikely in my view.

Meatpants wrote:

I mentioned the fencing as an aside, not for the suggestion that this means Qui-Gon is on Dooku/Wndu's level. But Dooku even as a newly minted Knight (and only just beginning to train Qui-Gon) was considered one of the best duelists in the Order and had already developed his own unique style of Makashi. However, training with someone like Dooku (a noted legendary instructor), Windu or Yoda is obviously a lot better for your experience and skills compared to a Master who only trained in Niman, for example. So yes, obviously getting thousands of hours of one-on-one training with one of the best duelists to ever live would have an impact on Qui-Gon's skills, knowledge and experience.

Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure you weren't implying anything less reasonable. Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only) - Page 3 228124001

Meatpants wrote:

You agree that Jinn's age shouldn't be a significant factor whilst also claiming that someone like Shaak Ti or Fisto who are a whole tier below Maul canonically could exhaust Jinn just the same for some reason. Neither Shaak Ti nor Kit Fisto possess any demonstration comparable to Jinn forcing a tier 8 fighter to go full throttle to take him down.

Gillard's tiers are only relevant insofar as establishing that there is in fact a gap. For all you know Maul is at the bottom of tier 8 and the likes of Fisto and Shaak are at the top of Tier 7 ( though I'm curious in which source Shaak is even noted to be a T7 as of TFU ). What's relevant to me in establishing how large the gap is between them is their demonstrated abilities and accolades.

Fisto managing to exchange multiple lightsaber blows with RotS Sidious and overcoming Grievous ( despite circumstances in his favor ) and Shaak performing as well as she did against Galen ( despite circumstances in her favor ) suggest they possess the ability to pressure Jinn to a similar extent as TPM Maul imo.

Meatpants wrote:

Maul's leg injury would be noticeable, but not enough to justify a massive disparity in how the battle would have played out differently, especially since Maul had the advantage of getting the jump on Qui-Gon, who according to the databank was "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel.

Fair enough. Just glad you recognized it as a notable factor. Out of curiosity though, in what way would Jinn being "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel impact him? It's not as if most duelists have the time to stretch beforehand anyways and Jinn noticed Maul early enough to warn Anakin and process that he was being attacked so it's not as if Maul would have any notable physical advantage ( relative to Jinn ) upon entering the fight.

Meatpants wrote:

RotS Anakin does not have skill at or above TPM Maul. Anakin is the best Djem So user Dooku has ever seen, granted, but it's extremely doubtful and unfounded that Anakin is noticeably skilled in other forms relative to even someone like Anoon Bondara or Cin Drallig. Maul is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, Jar'Kai and the use of the saberstaff. He's got better theoretical knowledge and training for saber combat. He was also trained by Sidious himself remorselessly.

1. He is apparently familiar enough with lightsaber combat from a technical perspective to actively make alterations to lightsaber forms in order to improve their effectiveness in combat:

2. This would make sense considering he knew the style well enough to fool Dooku into believing he was an Ataru practioner.

They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.

-

"Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

-

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics" - Revenge of the Sith

3. Immediately after being put into the suit, Anakin is able to reform his lightsaber style so that it draws from "the highest and most dangerous levels of combat."

"Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all tecuniques of combat, even from the highest most dangerous level, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable." - Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.

4A. Sidious also claims that Anakin's skills are "unmatched" by any Sith before him as of RotS which would include the likes of TPM Maul.

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you." - Revenge of the Sith.

4B. Granted, you could argue this is just Sidious stroking Anakin's ego, but considering Anakin is considered a tier 9 duelist in the Gillard tier system and Gillard seems to believe the tiers represent understanding of lightsaber combat as opposed to effectiveness in combat... Well, it would definitely fall in line with that view.

"Dooku and Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well the fight, it's about how well they learned." - Nick Gillard.

November 10th 2019, 7:54 pm

Meatpants wrote:@Syndiciate

No... your evidence for Shaak Ti or Kit Fisto exhausting Jinn in a spar "not much longer" than the fight against Maul was evidenced using a spar from when Qui-Gon was ten years old. Note that Qui-Gon and Tahl were iirc noted as virtually equals in combat around this time. Shaak Ti and Ki Fisto are not Qui-Gon's equals at all.

There are other things I forgot to address, if you want me to do so just reiterate them or list them.

You're right in that Jinn is not the equal of Shaak or Fisto, he's below either of them. That was never the point though. The point was simply that Jedi can and have become exhausted after engaging an opponent with non lethal intentions in a spar. The assertion that Ti or Fisto could tire Jinn out in in a spar in approximately the same amount of time as TPM Maul is tied to whether or not you believe they possess parity with that version of Maul and is a separate debate entirely.

Sure. It'd be nice to have you lay out your case for why you have TPM Maul above Galen/Vader in terms of physical capabilities given their respective feats.

November 10th 2019, 9:46 pm

Syndiciate wrote:I mean, it matters insofar as it's relevant to his knowledge of the other lightsaber forms and his ability to counter them.

Well the quote specifically says he “mastered” the same classical techniques that Dooku did. This isn’t a case of Qui-Gon being very familiar with countering lightsaber techniques, but mastering the same ones Dooku had mastered.

Syndiciate wrote:While Jinn shares similar accolades to many of his era's top duelists, the context in which Maul found him impressive should be noted.

Jinn doesn’t just share similar accolades with the section of PT Jedi in the ‘tier 7’ category, he has the most and the best.

Syndiciate wrote:Maul found Jinn impressive insofar as he was able to last against him for 30 seconds when he possessed an injury that he felt slowed him to a noticeable degree. That does not put him on Maul's level.

When did I say Qui-Gon is on Maul’s level?

Syndiciate wrote:The fact that Jinn collapsed onto the floor as soon as he disengaged with Maul and that both he and Kenobi worried over the outcome had the the ship arrived any later than they did should clue you in to the fact that the performance Jinn gave on Tatooine is about as well as he could hope to do against Maul on his own.

You’re forgetting that they fought further on the ramp of the ship, and Qui-Gon gathered the rest of his reserves into a final swing, hence why he was completely drained. Note that on the Tatooine fight, there’s conflicting accounts. Some say Qui-Gon was on the verge of being cut down as he escaped, others have the fight only tipping in Maul’s favour as Qui-Gon escaped. I think there’s a middle ground explanation, but there’s no point arguing semantics here, as I’m sure you’d agree.

---

Syndiciate wrote:Assuming the skill gap between these individuals wasn't particularly significant, we would reasonably come to the conclusion that the factor which allowed individuals with inferior technical skills to perform as they did against their opponents was superior Force augmentation. Something we know was true in Dooku's duel with Anakin. As I've mentioned before, I do not believe superior Force augmentation is an advantage Jinn enjoys against Marek.

I think skill becomes more important at high tier 8 and 9, unless you’re Anakin. But that’s an aside.

Syndiciate wrote:Why would it be laughable for Galen to have skill on the level of someone like Maul? Galen literally has access to the largest database of lightsaber knowledge in the galaxy via PROXY and we know that he had been trained for a similar number of years as Maul.

Because Maul is the most highly trained Sith in galactic history, trained in lightsaber combat by the greatest duelist in the galaxy and has in addition to mastering the seven forms also mastered Jar’Kai and the saberstaff. His weapons training outstrips Galen significantly.

---

Syndiciate wrote:And your claim that Maul is "not able to entirely overcome" Jinn in their second duel is only true as a result of Kenobi being present. His experience is only relevant insofar as it's the only edge he possesses and is what is even allowing him to keep up in the first place.

I forgot the bit where Qui-Gon said “My experience is only an edge because Kenobi is here with me.” Yeah, no; Qui-Gon is clearly saying that he’s outmatched in technical skill, but he has the edge in experience insofar that it’s a relevant factor in helping him contend. An impressive accolade undoubtedly.

---

Syndiciate wrote:Colloquially people have used term "bit" in order to establish some sort of gap or difference with a qualifier such as "small" or "fair" being placed in front of it in order to establish the exact difference. Considering the quote we're discussing goes out of its way to establish a gap between Jinn and Mace when it didn't have to, it would be somewhat redundant to do so if the gap that existed between them was insignificant making the your interpretation unlikely in my view.

It’s also unlikely that the quote was trying to establish a large gap as well. The point is that Qui-Gon is good enough to be compared to Windu/Dooku in that regard.

---

Syndiciate wrote:Gillard's tiers are only relevant insofar as establishing that there is in fact a gap. For all you know Maul is at the bottom of tier 8 and the likes of Fisto and Shaak are at the top of Tier 7 ( though I'm curious in which source Shaak is even noted to be a T7 as of TFU ). What's relevant to me in establishing how large the gap is between them is their demonstrated abilities and accolades.

Fisto managing to exchange multiple lightsaber blows with RotS Sidious and overcoming Grievous ( despite circumstances in his favor ) and Shaak performing as well as she did against Galen ( despite circumstances in her favor ) suggest they possess the ability to pressure Jinn to a similar extent as TPM Maul imo.

This is just speculation really. Shaak Ti is assumed as a tier 7, but she’s really got nothing to her name besides being able to somewhat hold off Grievous briefly on Hypori. There’s no evidence that she grew in power or useable augmentation from RotS to TFU. And since early game Galen is mostly unquantifiable (struggled against Kota and ragdoll territory for Vader) doesn’t make Ti look any more impressive.

And Fisto doesn’t scale above Qui-Gon either.

---

Syndiciate wrote:Out of curiosity though, in what way would Jinn being "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel impact him? It's not as if most duelists have the time to stretch beforehand anyways and Jinn noticed Maul early enough to warn Anakin and process that he was being attacked so it's not as if Maul would have any notable physical advantage ( relative to Jinn ) upon entering the fight.

Apart from the fact that Jinn had a split second to process information before having to fend off an “all-out” assault from a Sith Lord? Hmmm…. It’s also confirmed that Maul had the advantage of surprise:

Maul’s plan was partially undone but surprise was still on the side of the Sith, and Darth Maul leapt from his speeder and began a fierce lightsaber assault on Master Jinn.

-- Starships & Vehicles Collection #21

Maul is ready for a duel, Qui-Gon isn’t. How is that not an advantage? It’s really a testament to Qui-Gon more than anything that he was able to react in a fraction of a second and refocus himself without getting cut down.

---

Are you using a canon source?

And no, just because he’s proficient in Ataru doesn’t mean he has mastered it to the extent that the most highly trained Sith in galactic history has.

November 10th 2019, 9:47 pm

@Syndiciate

November 10th 2019, 10:14 pm

So now Maul is THE most highly trained Sith in Galactic history? That particular quotes keeps moving up in its impressiveness, doesn't it? I'd be interested in getting the source for that though considering the only quote you've provided states that he is ONE OF the most highly trained Sith. That's a pretty important distinction considering characters that were considered ONE OF the best Jedi lightsaber combatants get blitzed by Sidious before they can react while a character who was arguably THE best Jedi lightsaber combatant as of RotS ( Yoda ) can actively disarm him.

Looking over the rest of your post you failed to respond to about half of my points. This is going to be a problem if we continue considering I'm going to have to repost previous information that you failed to respond to the first time. I hope you didn't think ignoring them would simply make them go away.