Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only)

Starkiller stomps.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:I mean, it matters insofar as it's relevant to his knowledge of the other lightsaber forms and his ability to counter them. 

Well the quote specifically says he “mastered” the same classical techniques that Dooku did. This isn’t a case of Qui-Gon being very familiar with countering lightsaber techniques, but mastering the same ones Dooku had mastered.

I've already addressed this. Just because Jinn has mastered techniques that his master has does not mean that he has mastered everything that his master has or that he has mastered them to the same extent. 

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:While Jinn shares similar accolades to many of his era's top duelists, the context in which Maul found him impressive should be noted. 

Jinn doesn’t just share similar accolades with the section of PT Jedi in the ‘tier 7’ category, he has the most and the best.

The number of quotes he has is irrelevant when what they say amounts to the same thing. I don't find his "best quotes" to be any better than the quotes for the B team, Shaak Ti or many of the other high tier PT Jedi masters. Perhaps you could elaborate on how his quotes set him apart in your mind. 

Meatpants wrote:

Maul found Jinn impressive insofar as he was able to last against him for 30 seconds when he possessed an injury that he felt slowed him to a noticeable degree. That does not put him on Maul's level.

When did I say Qui-Gon is on Maul’s level? 

Now we're getting somewhere. I appreciate that you're reasonable enough not to take up THAT position. 

Meatpants wrote:

The fact that Jinn collapsed onto the floor as soon as he disengaged with Maul and that both he and Kenobi worried over the outcome had the the ship arrived any later than they did should clue you in to the fact that the performance Jinn gave on Tatooine is about as well as he could hope to do against Maul on his own. 

You’re forgetting that they fought further on the ramp of the ship, and Qui-Gon gathered the rest of his reserves into a final swing, hence why he was completely drained. Note that on the Tatooine fight, there’s conflicting accounts. Some say Qui-Gon was on the verge of being cut down as he escaped, others have the fight only tipping in Maul’s favour as Qui-Gon escaped. I think there’s a middle ground explanation, but there’s no point arguing semantics here, as I’m sure you’d agree.

The "further fighting" you're referring to is Maul landing on the edge of the ship's ramp in such a way that he is barely able to maintain his balance and Jinn managing to bull rush him off of it as a result.

Also, if Jinn was completely exhausted by delivering a single strike that made somebody who was precariously balanced on an edge fall off of it, then he didn't have anything left in the tank to begin with.

The quotes stating that "Qui-Gon was on the verge of being cut down" and that "the fight had tipped in Maul's favor" are not in conflict.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Assuming the skill gap between these individuals wasn't particularly significant, we would reasonably come to the conclusion that the factor which allowed individuals with inferior technical skills to perform as they did against their opponents was superior Force augmentation. Something we know was true in Dooku's duel with Anakin. As I've mentioned before, I do not believe superior Force augmentation is an advantage Jinn enjoys against Marek. 

I think skill becomes more important at high tier 8 and 9, unless you’re Anakin. But that’s an aside.

So I assume this is a tacit concession that Galen's superior skill would be relevant in a fight? I'll take it.  

Meatpants wrote:

Why would it be laughable for Galen to have skill on the level of someone like Maul? Galen literally has access to the largest database of lightsaber knowledge in the galaxy via PROXY and we know that he had been trained for a similar number of years as Maul. 

Because Maul is the most highly trained Sith in galactic history, trained in lightsaber combat by the greatest duelist in the galaxy and has in addition to mastering the seven forms also mastered Jar’Kai and the saberstaff. His weapons training outstrips Galen significantly. 

Quote for Maul being "the" most highly trained Sith as opposed to simply being "one of" them? 

Also, why should the things you're mentioning for Maul impress me when Galen has nearly identical ( and arguably superior ) accolades. 

Maul's mastered all forms of lightsaber combat? So has Galen as demonstrated through his use of Juyo. 

Maul was trained as a child by a T8-T9 duelist ( depending on where you hold TPM Sidious in comparison to his RotS incarnation ) while Galen was trained as a child by a man who possessed all the knowledge and experience of a T9 duelist PRIOR to nearly 2 decades of hunting down Jedi who managed to survive Order 66. 

Maul mastered Jar'Kai and the saberstaff? Galen is able to instantly recognize the forms and fighting styles of random Jedi as a result of his endless spars with PROXY providing him a nigh encyclopedic knowledge of lightsaber combat. 

Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in history? Galen has all but perfected lightsaber combat. 

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:And your claim that Maul is "not able to entirely overcome" Jinn in their second duel is only true as a result of Kenobi being present. His experience is only relevant insofar as it's the only edge he possesses and is what is even allowing him to keep up in the first place. 

I forgot the bit where Qui-Gon said “My experience is only an edge because Kenobi is here with me.” Yeah, no; Qui-Gon is clearly saying that he’s outmatched in technical skill, but he has the edge in experience insofar that it’s a relevant factor in helping him contend. An impressive accolade undoubtedly.

Why exactly is it impressive? The literal statement is that it's contributing to his ability to perform as he's performing. That actually makes it less impressive when you consider that the only reason he possessed such an edge over Maul to begin with was because Maul had to operate mostly in secret and didn't often get the chance to test himself against a variety of opponents unlike Jinn.

Meatpants wrote:

Colloquially people have used term "bit" in order to establish some sort of gap or difference with a qualifier such as "small" or "fair" being placed in front of it in order to establish the exact difference. Considering the quote we're discussing goes out of its way to establish a gap between Jinn and Mace when it didn't have to, it would be somewhat redundant to do so if the gap that existed between them was insignificant making the your interpretation unlikely in my view. 

It’s also unlikely that the quote was trying to establish a large gap as well. The point is that Qui-Gon is good enough to be compared to Windu/Dooku in that regard.

Placed below a version of Windu that is Jedi Dooku's inferior*

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Gillard's tiers are only relevant insofar as establishing that there is in fact a gap. For all you know Maul is at the bottom of tier 8 and the likes of Fisto and Shaak are at the top of Tier 7 ( though I'm curious in which source Shaak is even noted to be a T7 as of TFU ). What's relevant to me in establishing how large the gap is between them is their demonstrated abilities and accolades. 

Fisto managing to exchange multiple lightsaber blows with RotS Sidious and overcoming Grievous ( despite circumstances in his favor ) and Shaak performing as well as she did against Galen ( despite circumstances in her favor ) suggest they possess the ability to pressure Jinn to a similar extent as TPM Maul imo.

This is just speculation really. Shaak Ti is assumed as a tier 7, but she’s really got nothing to her name besides being able to somewhat hold off Grievous briefly on Hypori. There’s no evidence that she grew in power or useable augmentation from RotS to TFU. And since early game Galen is mostly unquantifiable (struggled against Kota and ragdoll territory for Vader) doesn’t make Ti look any more impressive. 

And Fisto doesn’t scale above Qui-Gon either.

Vader's assessment of her abilities in comparison to the likes of Rahm and Kazdan paired with her own accolades regarding her knowledge in lightsaber combat/technical skill nearly 2 decades prior to TFU are enough to earn her such a placement imo. 

Galen is easily quantifiable. We know that prior to his duel with Shaak he possessed enough Force energy to power the engines of enormous ships and ragdoll thousands of droids, creating hurricanes and groundquakes as a result of his telekinetic acts. His own estimations of his abilities had him musing on whether or not to casually knock down Kazdan's replica temple as easily as a child might knock over a sand castle after his defeat of Paratus. Considering the other feats he'd accomplished prior to this, I don't see a reason to doubt that he's capable of such. If you disagree I'd be interested in hearing why.

Fisto's defeat of a mid Clone Wars era Grievous is solidly above Jinn lasting for 30 seconds against TPM Maul. 

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:Out of curiosity though, in what way would Jinn being "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel impact him? It's not as if most duelists have the time to stretch beforehand anyways and Jinn noticed Maul early enough to warn Anakin and process that he was being attacked so it's not as if Maul would have any notable physical advantage ( relative to Jinn ) upon entering the fight. 

Apart from the fact that Jinn had a split second to process information before having to fend off an “all-out” assault from a Sith Lord? Hmmm…. It’s also confirmed that Maul had the advantage of surprise:

Maul’s plan was partially undone but surprise was still on the side of the Sith, and Darth Maul leapt from his speeder and began a fierce lightsaber assault on Master Jinn.

-- Starships & Vehicles Collection #21

Maul is ready for a duel, Qui-Gon isn’t. How is that not an advantage? It’s really a testament to Qui-Gon more than anything that he was able to react in a fraction of a second and refocus himself without getting cut down.

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Are you using a canon source? 

And no, just because he’s proficient in Ataru doesn’t mean he has mastered it to the extent that the most highly trained Sith in galactic history has. 

Considering Jinn gave ground after initially engaging with Maul I think that would have gone a significant way towards mitigating any advantage that surprise might have granted Maul. But fair enough. 

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I did. I assumed we were operating under composite rules? If not, my apologies. My point stands without canon sources as it was supplementary to my overall point. 

The fact that Anakin was able to completely fool one of the most skilled duelists in galactic history, who has shown a penchant for being able to identify an opponent's lightsaber style and target their weaknesses, into believing he was an Ataru practitioner implies a high level of familiarity with the form. I'm not necessarily suggesting it implies he had greater mastery of that specific form than someone like Maul ( though it actually may when you consider the implications of that ) but it does speak to his familiarity with lightsaber combat as a whole and thus his overall skill as a duelist which we know is superior to Maul's as a result of his status as a tier 9 duelist.

Oh, Syn's still destroying? Good to know.