Qui-Gon vs Starkiller (sabers only)

how is him completely beating obi wan while mentally hindered, again, not a tier 9 feat? when kenobi possessed some of his old skill, which put him at the highest end of tier 8, likely even 9? and this tier tihng is bullshit lol if we went by that, than sidious wouldve stomped mace windu. vader has like, 2 or 3 statements that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man.

not really since mace is stated to be 8 bordering 9 (that is without his amp : while amped he is 9 for sure)
similar to RoTS anakin in his base state being peak tier 8 but he can step up his game by abusing his rage and than he goes one tier higher .

while sidious is solid 9 .
so RoTS mace is in sidiouses ballpark overall , or at least close enough to compete which he did eventually .

it doesnt matter. it says that anakin is a low 9, while sheev is a full on 9. the guy who made the scale says that even the same tier can vary a humoungous amount in skill and power, meaning that by his statement, sheev could possibly stomp anakin in a duel, even dark sider anakin, who stomped dooku, who could hold his own against yoda more than once, who beat sheev in a duel. the gillard scale, as u call it, is incredibly faulty, and i hate it lol

RoTS sheev is not top tier 9 (he is just stable solid tier 9 just like yoda).
sidious reaching his RoTJ self and later even more DE incarnation is truly the very top of tier 9 scalling
who could stomp the likes of windu and anakin (just like valkorion and even more so GM luke) .

anakin prior to his injuries has unlimited potential and that is what makes him so dangerous .
windu reaching low tier 9 was the very peak of his potential
while anakin reaching low tier 9 was just scratching the surface of his own potential as a force user .
few more months under sidiouses teachings (unharmed) and he would have surpassed all before him .

but as of his KF/mustafar self anakin would lose to RoTS sheev or yoda in all out fight (i see no contradiction so far)

how is him completely beating obi wan while mentally hindered, again, not a tier 9 feat?

Oi, don't use my points (kidding). Vader was mentally hindered, yes, but that just meant the duel progressed longer than it should have.

when kenobi possessed some of his old skill, which put him at the highest end of tier 8, likely even 9?

Obi-Wan was never a tier 9, lol. He was a very high tier 8. Having a fraction of your former skill =/= being comparable to your top tier 8 younger self. Ben was at best a low tier 8. His power was top tier 8, but his lack of stamina, poor physicals and pitiful stamina lower him considerably within the bracket.

and this tier tihng is bullshit lol

They're over-used, sure. However, they're not "bullshit".

if we went by that, than sidious wouldve stomped mace windu.

Flawed argument:




The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 133:

As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious.
Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is just too tempting."


Btw, Anakin being a nine refers to Anakin post fall and unhindered before you point it out. The Making of Star Wars establishes Mace as a firm nine. The other sources are from a few years later and only have Gillard's authority. Mace being a nine was approved of by Lucas. 

vader has like, 2 or 3 statements that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man.

Mace also has a statement saying his skills as of ROTS are "unparalleled", which if we took literally would mean that neither Sidious or Yoda are a match for him despite all evidence and other sources indicating that the three are on the same level and could go either way.

yeah, but difference is that vader has more of those than mace windu does, and in windu's case, it gets constantly contradicted, while in vader's case, not even sidious has statements of that era that put him above vader. i think he even says that anakin is the best sith duelist or something, which would include him, which makes sense, since i literally can never see sheev stomping prime dooku. and i have yet to see something that says vader got worse as a duelist. i have seen tho, statements that say that he got better.

yeah, but difference is that vader has more of those than mace windu does,

Do you have a source for Vader being a tier 9? Alternatively, do you have a source for Vader that mentions Sidious (the only tier 9 other than Yoda alive at this time) that claims he was unparalleled?

and in windu's case, it gets constantly contradicted,

No it doesn't, lol. The sources you refer to were pre-2005, when Mace was established as a Sheev/Yoda tier combatant. Before that, he was just considered Dooku tier and second to Yoda. Even then, one of them (Shatterpoint) has Mace holding the upper hand against a being he claims to have Anakin/Yoda level power. 

while in vader's case, not even sidious has statements of that era that put him above vader.

The only one that comes to mind is TFU II, which doesn't even mention Sheev once and so isn't a universal authority.

i think he even says that anakin is the best sith duelist or something, which would include him, which makes sense,

Source?

since i literally can never see sheev stomping prime dooku.

Agreed, but he'd defeat him every time.

and i have yet to see something that says vader got worse as a duelist. i have seen tho, statements that say that he got better.

So you think enraged ROTJ Luke is a tier 9 despite being lolstomped by Sidious, then? Since he beat suit Vader in his prime.

i do have quotes like that. the 'unparalleled' part, at least. idk how many tho. 


Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. --Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide...


No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. --Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate...



[i]By the time the Emperor assigns him to assist Grand Moff Tarkin in the construction of the Death Star battle station, Vader is the deadliest warrior of his generation, shielded by imposing armor, steeled by countless combats, and empowered by the dark side of the Force. --Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Revised Core Rulebook...
[/i]


this top one says deadliest, but i think it applies all the same. but ill let u choose.. then he got even better after that. 


Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. -- Insider #62... 



not entiely unrelated, but he could fodderize droids who had copied dozens to hundreds of different swordmasters, who could use all thier techniques at the same time. idk if u want the quote to that, but it exists lol


then there is the statement nick rotsu thinks only vader was good enough to kill mace windu (he didnt know about sheev, obviously)


"You knew Old Republic Jedi?"
"Met a few. Only really knew one. Dead now, of course."
"Of course."
"Way I heard it, Vader killed him personally."
Luke let his eyes close. "Vader? You're sure?"
"Had to be. Nobody but Vader would have had a chance." --Luke Skywalker And The Shadows Of Mindor...



this is the best i can do for now lol


as for the windu thing,- dooku also got better, contrary to popular belief. i persoanlly put dooku, mace, and sheev, in the same tier, with windu and dooku being nigh above sheev.


source for the anakin thing.. uhhhh ok, here


"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." --Revenge of the Sith...



there is also dooku saying that he is the best djem so duelist he knows, putting anakin above yoda and mace as far as djem so goes.


good, one point done with lol


and im of the mind that the fight was mega circumstancial, so i would rather say, no, i dont think he is a lvl 9, but he is a lvl 8 imo

Breaking down a hypothetical duel between Jinn and Starkiller to its basic elements: 

---

Physical Augmentation

SK possesses vastly greater power in the Force which logically means he possesses superior physical augmentation to Jinn making him; faster stronger and more durable than Jinn. 

If you want to argue that a character can have similar levels of Force augmentation and still be vastly inferior as a Force user ( ala Obi Wan and Dooku ) then we can simply compare their best feats directly. 

- Jinn shatters a sword with his lightsaber. SK leaves dents in durasteel hulls with his punches and throws TIE fighters. 

- Jinn blocks blaster fire from two droidekas with Obi Wan briefly before running away. SK blocks blaster fire from entire armies before destroying them. 

- Jinn is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber and falls to the floor dead. SK is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber, slammed repeatedly into durasteel walls, thrown into the vacuum of space and left floating there for an extended period of time and survives. Oh, and is confirmed to have been made more durable after the fact. 

"The fact that he was breathing testified to one mistake his Master had made. He had been rebuilt tougher than before." - The Force Unleashed. 

Just for a side by side, here's Jinn being stabbed and falling to the floor dead: 



And here's Galen ( prior to undergoing several growths in power which would presumably enhance his durability ) being stabbed and, a couple of seconds later, rising to his feet to exchange words with Vader:

Endurance

SK has far greater reserves of Force energy which would allow him to remain fresh long after Qui Gon had used his up. 

Just to compare, SK participated in a marathon duel that lasted hours in his first ever duel against Vader. Jinn had to lie on the ground after his 30 second encounter with Maul on Tatooine with Obi Wan believing that that brief engagement was still affecting him significantly many hours later.

"The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's life, Vader had displayed no anger at all- just determination, not to kill his apprentice, but to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours." - The Force Unleashed II. 

-


"Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling." - TPM Novelization. 


-

"Without waiting to see whether the pilot obeyed, Obi-Wan started for the main hall. The young boy followed him. They found Qui-Gon in a dusty heap just inside the entry, covered with sweat and breathing hard. I've never seen him in such bad shape after a fight! If we hadn't gotten to him when we did..."



-


Through the sheets of laser fire, Obi-Wan saw Qui-Gon calmly sit and begin to meditate. He tried not to think about just how badly his Master might need that rest. After the fight on Tatooine, Qui-Gon had been nearly exhausted." - TPM Junior Novelization. 


Without Obi Wan to aid him, Jinn was cut down by Maul in their second encounter in 30 seconds ( funnily enough, exactly the amount of time their first encounter lasted where Obi Wan thought Jinn would have been killed if they hadn't gotten to him when they did ).

If you want to argue that Jinn was exhausted in his second encounter with Maul then I'd simply point out that SK was literally stated to be physically shaking with exhaustion and that he had never been more tired in his life then when he engaged Vader in a duel in TFUII and fought evenly with him. 

Skill

Galen is a master of multiple forms, who's prowess with a blade was considered equivalent to his power as a Force user and who'd all but perfected lightsaber combat prior to TFU. Jinn is a master of Ataru and one of the better duelists in the Order's history. An accolade shared by about half a dozen of the PT's top duelists. This doesn't invalidate it of course, it does however lead you to question how impressive such quotes are ultimately meant to be. Is it meant to suggest he's among the 50 best duelists in the Order's history? The top 1%? The top 5%? Unfortunately, it doesn't really go into detail. Still impressive nonetheless. 

Other

Outside of general superiority in all areas, Galen has the simple advantage of knowing Jinn's fighting style through his fights with PROXY whereas Jinn does not.

"PROXY'S holographic skin re-formed in the shape of Qui-Gon Jinn." - The Force Unleashed. 


---


In the end, the only way I can really understand someone siding with Jinn is based on a position I find to be innately flawed.

That the skill gap between Jinn and SK is large enough that it would allow Jinn to overcome someone who's physicals are vastly superior. 

This can only be based on one of two ideas: 

1. That Jinn's own accolades are good enough to suggest a vast disparity between himself and an opponent who has mastered multiple forms. 

2. The idea that there is a significant disparity between the likes of TFU/TFUII Vader and TPM Maul. 

While Jinn's accolade is solid, I would not say it's enough to establish a vast disparity between himself and SK in skill, especially when one considers that Galen already fought evenly with an opponent who had similar accolades under circumstances that hindered him and favored his opponent prior to his own skills as a lightsaber combatant and power as a Force user improving. I'm of course referring to Shaak Ti: 

"The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat." - The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide. 
-
Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!" - The Clone Wars Adventures. 
-
The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order, and one of the most accomplished in lightsaber combat, of which she mastered the Makashi and Ataru forms." - Star Wars UK Magazine 6.17. 

When you also consider that Galen possesses personal knowledge of Jinn's fighting style, I simply don't understand how one can justify such a stance.

As for the idea that there is a vast disparity between the likes of TFU/TFUII Vader and TPM Maul, well, I'm more than willing to debate that with anybody who holds the position.

Addressing your accolades/Vader-Maul arguments first.

----

Syndiciate wrote:In the end, the only way I can really understand someone siding with Jinn is based on a position I find to be innately flawed.

That the skill gap between Jinn and SK is large enough that it would allow Jinn to overcome someone who's physicals are vastly superior. 

This can only be based on one of two ideas: 

1. That Jinn's own accolades are good enough to suggest a vast disparity between himself and an opponent who has mastered multiple forms. 

2. The idea that there is a significant disparity between the likes of TFU/TFUII Vader and TPM Maul. 

While Jinn's accolade is solid, I would not say it's enough to establish a vast disparity between himself and SK in skill, especially when one considers that Galen already fought evenly with an opponent who had similar accolades under circumstances that hindered him and favored his opponent prior to his own skills as a lightsaber combatant and power as a Force user improving. I'm of course referring to Shaak Ti: 

"The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat." - The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide. 
-
Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!" - The Clone Wars Adventures. 
-
The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order, and one of the most accomplished in lightsaber combat, of which she mastered the Makashi and Ataru forms." - Star Wars UK Magazine 6.17. 

When you also consider that Galen possesses personal knowledge of Jinn's fighting style, I simply don't understand how one can justify such a stance.

As for the idea that there is a vast disparity between the likes of TFU/TFUII Vader and TPM Maul, well, I'm more than willing to debate that with anybody who holds the position.

I'll only touch on this briefly since I don't think accolades are really the meat of Qui-Gon's casel. There's no evidence Galen Marek is nearly as skilled as Qui-Gon. He's mastered all forms of lightsaber combat:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

His experience gives him an edge that Maul can't entirely counter with his skill (noting that Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in galactic history and trained to be an ultimate Jedi killer by Sidious himself):

His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsaber against him.

--TPM Novelisation

And Qui-Gon is virtually as deadly as TPM Mace Windu (and thus approximately Jedi Dooku) with a lightsaber as well:

His [Mace Windu’s] fighting style is graceful and precise, albeit a bit deadlier than Qui-Gon.”

--Prima's Star Wars Episode I Jedi Power Battles Guide.

Mace Windu and Dooku as of TPM being the best lightsaber duelists in the Order bar Yoda. Not to mention Qui-Gon has fenced Dooku "thousands of times" per Dooku himself. This guy is well and beyond people like Shaak Ti. And yes, TPM Maul is superior to Galen Marek and TFU Vader as a duelist.

---

Physical Augmentation

Syndiciate wrote:SK possesses vastly greater power in the Force which logically means he possesses superior physical augmentation to Jinn making him; faster stronger and more durable than Jinn. 

So that's why it takes Maul over half a minute to whittle down Qui-Gon in a lightsaber duel, despite having more raw power potential than Sidious? I think your logic here is making Qui-Gon look better more than anything. No, your power in the Force doesn't automatically make your augmentation better. Aug is a skill that has to be trained and developed. If it wasn't, then AOTC Anakin should be able to blitz Yoda based on having infinitely more raw power than Yoda.

Syndiciate wrote:If you want to argue that a character can have similar levels of Force augmentation and still be vastly inferior as a Force user ( ala Obi Wan and Dooku ) then we can simply compare their best feats directly. 

Except that's exactly how Qui-Gon was keeping up with Maul's speed and matching his strength augmentation despite being weaker in the Force.

Syndiciate wrote:- Jinn shatters a sword with his lightsaber. SK leaves dents in durasteel hulls with his punches and throws TIE fighters. 

- Jinn blocks blaster fire from two droidekas with Obi Wan briefly before running away. SK blocks blaster fire from entire armies before destroying them. 

How is that not totally misrepresentative? Qui-Gon's "best feat" isn't shattering a sword over ten years before TPM, it's matching Maul in a duel and giving him a good fight. Pre-TPM Maul without his augmentation has INSANE strength feats; add on augmentation and this guy is ridiculously strong, and Qui-Gon was matching his strength. THAT is one of Qui-Gon's best feats.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength.... Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Syndiciate wrote:- Jinn is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber and falls to the floor dead. SK is stabbed through the midsection with a lightsaber, slammed repeatedly into durasteel walls, thrown into the vacuum of space and left floating there for an extended period of time and survives. Oh, and is confirmed to have been made more durable after the fact.

You mean the Qui-Gon who was on the verge of exhaustion, meditated for a few minutes, fought harder than he's ever fought in his life, then got exhausted again and stabbed through the midsection? And is 60 years old? Hmm...

Endurance

Syndiciate wrote:SK has far greater reserves of Force energy which would allow him to remain fresh long after Qui Gon had used his up. 

This is assuming Starkiller's saber augmentation can match Qui-Gon's. Remember, you haven't proven that his augmentation - or even TFU Vader's - is up to scratch with TPM Maul.

Syndiciate wrote:Just to compare, SK participated in a marathon duel that lasted hours in his first ever duel against Vader. Jinn had to lie on the ground after his 30 second encounter with Maul on Tatooine with Obi Wan believing that that brief engagement was still affecting him significantly many hours later.

"The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's life, Vader had displayed no anger at all- just determination, not to kill his apprentice, bit to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours." - The Force Unleashed II. 

I find it ironic that the quote you provided here says Vader is not trying to kill his apprentice but wear him down. On the other hand, Maul was in a "killing frenzy" that "promised no-quarter" on Tatooine. Anyway, you're making a false equivalency. Qui-Gon was burnt out in 30 seconds because he was facing Maul. Do you think that if he was sparring Kit Fisto or Shaak Ti he'd burn out in 30 seconds? Maul forces him to give it his all, with utter concentration, pouring everything into his aug and mind to keep up on an even level, and that burns him out. If Starkiller went up against the Emperor in a lightsaber duel (where the Emperor was actually trying to kill him) he'd be exhausted very quickly into the fight after his reserves were exhausted trying to match Sidious' augmentation. And yes, this does happen in the mythos. AOTC Anakin had to spend his reserves lavishly and inefficiently to keep up with Dooku, Maul was exhausted after his duel with Sidious in TCW while Sidious remained fresh etc. This is a common misconception with Qui-Gon that needs to be stamped out. Age is hardly ever a relevant factor in a duel, contrary to some belief. Look at Sidious and Yoda. Everyone gets exhausted when their reserves run out.

---

You'll need to prove that Starkiller and Vader are on par with the likes of TPM Maul in lightsaber combat.

i presented statements before that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i presented statements before that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man lol

Meatpants is the kind of debater that conveniently forgets things that are not favorable to his case as he demonstrated in his response to me. Don't worry though, I'll ensure he responds to these issues as we progress or that he eventually stops posting in the hopes people forget about this thread.

So while I'm not too into whole Force User vs Force User battles. I think you guys get far too hung up on the whole tiering system thing.

Especially trying to use the system for characters that weren't even apart of it and it mainly seemed more around movies only rather than taking into account any expanded material.

You guys do you of course, but I've just been noticing it around here, might take a couple of steps back and rethink?

Zenwolf wrote:So while I'm not too into whole Force User vs Force User battles. I think you guys get far too hung up on the whole tiering system thing.

Especially trying to use the system for characters that weren't even apart of it and it mainly seemed more around movies only rather than taking into account any expanded material.

You guys do you of course, but I've just been noticing it around here, might take a couple of steps back and rethink?

Couldn't agree more. There's like half a dozen PT era character who we have nebulous placements for with the creator of said system having admitted that there is vast disparity within the individual tiers themselves and that style matchups and circumstances surrounding a fight play a huge role in their outcomes. At best, it's an overly broad ranking framework that gives us some insight about a few characters relative placements compared to each other.

Syndiciate wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i presented statements before that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man lol

Meatpants is the kind of debater that conveniently forgets things that are not favorable to his case as he demonstrated in his response to me. Don't worry though, I'll ensure he responds to these issues as we progress or that he eventually stops posting in the hopes people forget about this thread.

Oh, you mean quotes like Starkiller "perfected lightsaber dueling". And Vader being an "unparalleled duelist"? Two quotes that have been twisted so hard by a certain member here. I'm fully aware of them, but the fact that someone would use those seriously to argue Vader > Sidious in dueling for example, is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve response. As for Starkiller "all but perfecting lightsaber combat", that didn't really help him much against Shaak Ti or the Shadow Guard, did it?

Starkiller definitely

KingofBlades wrote:Suited vader is not a tier 9 duelist lmao. He's at best a tier 8 but more likely a tier 7 based on his duel with Ben Kenobi

Suited Vader has his Purge feat that definitely places him above tier 7 as duelist. Lets just say that it was a low showing on Vader's part. Nobody ever argues the possibility of Kenobi being a tier 7 due to getting stomped by a tired Count Dooku. Why should we factor in Vader's low showing to suggest he is a 7?

What Purge showing is this?

The idea that Vader is the best duellist in a galaxy with only a handful of Jedi and one where Sidious not only considers himself to be above using a lightsaber but also where he's not even referenced in most of the cases besides the clearly ego-feeding ROTS quote is certainly a strong case for him being a tier 9.

it certainly is, when we see that sidious could still fight with one, and was still quite willing lol remember DE? him getting destroyed by Luke after the huge power gap was shortened? cuz i remember it. 

and um, once u find something that actually contradicts what i said, then u maybe ill actually start considering what u say.

it certainly is, when we see that sidious could still fight with one, and was still quite willing lol remember DE? him getting destroyed by Luke after the huge power gap was shortened? cuz i remember it. 

...A much more powerful Luke than the one who stomped ROTJ Vader?

and um, once u find something that actually contradicts what i said, then u maybe ill actually start considering what u say.

Mate, you're literally twisting two quotes to wank the hell out of Vader's lightsaber skills. Sidious is literally a tier 9, which not a single source pegs Vader as. Hell, Vader's lightsaber feats contradict this.

i see that ur one of those people that think 'what we see is what we get'. alright man, u do u.

...What?

anakin is a lvl 9, and vader did not get worse as a duelist, so i really dont know where u take this idea from. u take his inability to move his body in natural, human, flexible ways as him being a bad duelist, which is almost literally why he always had trouble against other fighters, and not because he wasnt skilled. if u can find me a vader that isnt 19-18 BBY vader having actual trouble against some fodder jedi, that would be nice. until then, good luck.

anyhow, vader's fight with luke was fuuuuuuuuuull of circumstances- when he first fought luke, luke used a shitty version of ben's style, while ROTJ luke used a semi perfect copy of vader's own style, which is literally made to kill other duelists the best way possible, while having almost no weaknesses to it. luke than mixed that in with a style that obi wan made to fight vader's own style. so now he not only has style advantage, he also has a slight sense of surprise on vader, because of that.

second off, vader had only 2 reasons to even fight luke- turn him into the dark side so that he joins vader and kills palpatine with him, and so that if he lost the fight, palps wouldve killed him, and totally brainwashed luke after vader died, which he didnt want to happen to his child. this means that vader was already conflicted from even before the fight started. so he not only held back as to not harm luke too badly, he was also not even a full dark sider cuz of his love for luke, and didnt even want to fight luke in the first place.

yes he was fighting seriously. that much is obvious. but was he at full power? no. luke goes over this once before himself, and even compares vader's power to opponents he cant beat (gethzerion, and joruus), even as early as a year or so before DE. 

other things to take into account: sheev was a dark side nexus, meaning that he made conflicted vader weaker than usual, and made raged luke stronger than usual.

Meatpants wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i presented statements before that say he is the best duelist in the galaxy man lol

Meatpants is the kind of debater that conveniently forgets things that are not favorable to his case as he demonstrated in his response to me. Don't worry though, I'll ensure he responds to these issues as we progress or that he eventually stops posting in the hopes people forget about this thread.

Oh, you mean quotes like Starkiller "perfected lightsaber dueling". And Vader being an "unparalleled duelist"? Two quotes that have been twisted so hard by a certain member here. I'm fully aware of them, but the fact that someone would use those seriously to argue Vader > Sidious in dueling for example, is so ludicrous it doesn't deserve response. As for Starkiller "all but perfecting lightsaber combat", that didn't really help him much against Shaak Ti or the Shadow Guard, did it?

Perhaps lorenzo was simply pointing out that someone with all of the knowledge and experience of Anakin Skywalker along with over two decades of further experience engaging some of the best combatants the Order had to offer was more technically skilled then someone who was rather contemptuous of lightsaber combat as a whole and spent most of his free time experimenting with the Force. This seems like a more than viable stance to me. Perhaps its not that you feel the assertion doesn't deserve a response but that you don't possess the ability to counter it. 

As far as I'm aware it's what allowed him to fair as well as he did despite a host of circumstances working against him. If you disagree, I'd love to hear your thoughts.