SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

Sounds good.

@arkhamasylum3

You're past the deadline. You have 36 hours from this message being posted to get your rebuttal done or I'm claiming an auto-win and moving onto the next round.

^ @arkhamaslym3: Under normal circumstances, this would be an automatic concession on your part, but @Azronger has granted you additional time. Don't be late again.

Very disappointed HP.

@Azronger Just to clarify is my extension time from the deadline or from now given I was only informed I was past the deadline by now and it technically isn't my fault given I thought I had till Thursday because of you.

Never mind. Saw your post. I should be able to finish my rebuttal in 36 hours.

I can feel it through my telepathic bond with HP. It's coming...

Rebuttal

1) Count Dooku vs Obi Wan Kenobi

A) Can Dooku ragdoll Kenobi?

Azronger wrote:In the last days of the Clone Wars, Count Dooku dueled Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi for the final time. While Kenobi was telekinetically removed mid-duel and it was left to Skywalker to finish the job, the former instance is often misjudged as proof of a ragdoll-tier gap between Kenobi and Lord Tyranus. The Revenge of the Sith junior novel explains that in lieu of having his Force defenses simply overpowered, Kenobi failed to erect them in the first place (link). One obviously cannot claim X is freely capable of penetrating the active barrier of Y and tossing them around (aka ragdolling) if Y only ever had a passive barrier up.

Erm, what…? Your premise for this debate is that given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a fight against Dooku (Kenobi’s supposed near equal) yet you haven’t at all refuted the idea that Dooku can stomp Kenobi on a whim with TK. Instead, you’ve presented the idea that Dooku did it through superior speed and skill instead of power which doesn’t actually refute the feat in question. If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances and will likely do the same to Hett as well. Put simply the idea that Kenobi or Hett can put up a fight against Dooku is utterly absurd when we know for a fact that Dooku can stomp Kenobi with TK whenever he wants and the latter is simply unable to do anything about it. It’s a clear showing of vast superiority however you look at it.

B) Kenobi Stonewalling Dooku

Azronger wrote:In contrast, the Revenge of the Sith novelization has Kenobi moving “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished”; his “blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”; and parrying “every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper” (link).

Imagine literally ignoring all context to the passages you’re citing... The reason Kenobi moves too fast for Dooku to perceive and stonewalls him is because of several factors which have been curiously omitted from your analysis:

1. By the time of the start of the passage you cited the fight was already starting to become “tiring” for Dooku and the text notes that “the dark power that served him went only so far”.

2. The duo had attempted to trick Dooku by not revealing their full strength at the start of the duel. Just prior Dooku had been dancing around the duo effortlessly and was incredibly confident but then they suddenly massively increased the tempo of their attack which clearly surprises Dooku as when Kenobi moves “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished” Dooku thinks “what?” and attempts to disengage to “recover his composure” but doesn’t get the chance as “by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”. You completely ignored the context to Kenobi’s speed feats against Dooku which is that he was taken by surprise, lost his composure and still hadn’t adapted to the massive change in speed as is made blatantly apparent within the text. Under this context Skywalker nearly 3 shots Dooku which he fails to do later when Dooku is even more exhausted and he is rage amped. Also under this context, Dooku doesn’t dare to strike against Kenobi despite doing so later.

3. Dooku was holding back. Prior to the stonewalling but during the passage where Dooku was caught off guard he was not aiming to kill the duo as is made apparent by him noting later in the text that “the comedy had ended” and it was “time to kill”.

4. When Kenobi stonewall Dooku the latter was under the pretense that Kenobi was using Ataru. The text notes Dooku “drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades”. If you look at the statement you can very clearly see Dooku aims all of his strikes at Kenobi’s legs because of course as mentioned previously he’s under the pretense Kenobi is using Ataru. Kenobi’s ability to block a few strikes all aimed at the exact same point does not make Kenobi comparable to Dooku and especially not when there is another context to consider namely Dooku having been battered beforehand by Anakin and already having engaged in a lengthy duel.

Azronger wrote:If X could incapacitate Y with a snap of their fingers, they wouldn’t be so utterly flabbergasted, almost overwhelmed, and have all their attacks neutralized by Y’s swordplay; lightsaber prowess and Force ability are inextricably linked together. The evidence is more in favor of Kenobi being on the Count’s level than five tiers beneath.

The thing is though Dooku did incapacitate Kenobi with a snap of his fingers and the evidence does support Dooku’s vast superiority (probably not a 5 tier difference though) and using contextual passages doesn’t prove a damn thing.

2) Obi-Wan Kenobi vs A’Sharad Hett

A) Was Kenobi post-prime?

Azronger wrote:The text notes that while Kenobi hadn’t fought with a lightsaber in a while, “he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine,” nonetheless, and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.” Simply put, he hadn’t declined, and was on the same level as he had been in Revenge of the Sith.

Yeah sure Kenobi hadn’t let his reflexes become dull but that doesn’t change the fact that he hadn’t fought with a Lightsaber in combat for two years making him unprepared for a duel (his technical skill would have decreased). I’d also like to point out that given the fact that Kenobi not having fought in a duel for ages is mentioned alongside a slew of other disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett we can logically infer that it’s intended to be a factor at play.

B) Was Ben going all out?

Azronger wrote:Ben required absolute focus while fighting Hett, and any distracting thoughts “would probably only get him killed.” Hett also scored several unarmed strikes in Kenobi, and the ones Ben did block, “he wasn't doing so with ease.”

So what? Neither of these factors proves Kenobi wasn’t holding back for the whole fight when he’s specifically noted to be trying “to avoid killing Hett” merely that because Kenobi’s holding back Hett can actually hit him and he needs to maintain absolute focus because of it.

Azronger wrote:As to the sometimes-tossed-around notion that Ben won as he soon as reminded himself he was fighting for Luke, warriors’ motivations circulate around their brain constantly. Just because he happened to think of Luke at that particular instant doesn't mean he wasn't serious prior.

Quit trying to handwave this argument away. The text specifically attributes Ben knowing he was fighting for Luke as the reason for his victory with it saying that “in the end, Kenobi wasn’t fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke’s.” Why would this be relevant “in the end” if it wasn’t even the motivation for Kenobi’s victory and just a random thought that occurred?

Azronger wrote:The text even notes it was “fortunate” Ben wasn’t out of practice, indicating that someone noticeably beneath RotS Kenobi’s level would have lost to Hett; had he been toying with Hett and capable of stomping him, him retaining his former prowess would have been completely irrelevant rather than “fortunate.”

Wat? Of course, it’s fortunate Kenobi maintained his former prowess because otherwise he would have been killed due to slow reactions and would have been unable to overpower Hett. Just as with your previous statements this doesn’t tell us anything about whether Kenobi was going all out or not lmao.

Azronger wrote:Kenobi was giving this duel his all, and that’s that.

A simple lol will suffice here.

C) Environmental Factors

Azronger wrote:Firstly, let us make clear that it only gave Hett an advantage, and did not give Kenobi any disadvantage, as inferior fighters like Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul weren't bothered by the desert environment at all (link).

Unlike Kenobi though both of these combatants had actually fought with a Lightsaber in combat recently. Plus the sand can be a disadvantage if the opposing fighter is using it effectively against you but given neither of these fighters had fought in that environment before they, of course, didn’t know how to use that environment to their advantage.

Azronger wrote:Secondly, we are talking about Force users here: something as trivial as sand beneath their boots isn't going to boost their precognition, augmentation, reflexes or clarity of mind - far more pertinent factors in a lightsaber duel than simple technique or raw skill. The fact that Hett had more experience fighting on a desert doesn't take away from the fact that Kenobi didn't ragdoll, speedblitz or do anything to Hett that would indicate he could stomp. It would be a hard-fought battle in any environment.

I agree with you that the even with the environment at play Kenobi wouldn’t speedblitz Hett. However, I do think the environment was a significant factor (your hand waving notwithstanding). Please enlighten me why it’s a “negligent/trivial” factor when it’s emphasized twice throughout the text. It’s obviously intended to be a significant factor and it is primarily attributed as the reason for Kenobi struggling against Hett’s blows: “Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn’t doing so with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.”

D) Generalised Summary

Azronger wrote:In the end, I don’t see any reason not to mark Hett a rival of Kenobi’s here. The latter was noted to have retained his skills from his days in the Clone Wars, of which he required every ounce to stay alive and triumph over Hett, with the terrain being only a negligent advantage for the latter.

I disagree. The most you’ve proven is that Hett with an environmental advantage managed to briefly pressure Kenobi while the latter was holding back and hadn’t used a Lightsaber in two years. This hardly proves Jedi Hett is anywhere close to Dooku given the latter has dismissed Kenobi with TK while being battered by an enraged Anakin whereas the former got stomped once Kenobi went all out.

I have to say I’m really not buying into the Hett~Dooku arguments and expected better. As for your comments on Krayt’s power growth, I have no complaints but it’s all kinda pointless given your comparison between Jedi Hett and Dooku is faulty.

3) New Arguments: The Power of Count Dooku

A) Lightsaber Skills

There’s a wealth of evidence favoring Dooku over Krayt in this category be it his accolades or his feats. As of TPM Dooku was already held as swordmaster on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda. With several sources proclaiming that other Jedi viewed him to be on par with Yoda and Mace Windu (some even suggest he was superior to the latter) and Thame Cerulian claiming Dooku was the greatest Lightsaber duellist, he’d ever seen. They’re wrong of course but they certainly establish Dooku as somewhat comparable to the two:

In adolescence, Dooku became the Padawan learner of Thame Cerulian, a Jedi scholar on the Council who called Dooku the finest swordsman he had ever seen.

Source: Insider #113

---

Yoda took a keen interest in the young Dooku. He assisted in Dooku's combat training and as a result, the Padawan became especially proficient with a lightsaber. Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him.

Source: Insider #109

---

Only Mace himself ever mastered it, and it was reckoned that only Master Yoda and Dooku were ever able to match Windu with a lightsaber.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #25

---

Dooku had been reckoned one of the foremost duellists in the Jedi Order, second only to Master Yoda.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #60

Then you have him increasing those skills when he became a Sith Lord:

However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

As of Attack of the Clones Kenobi claims he had never met such a power in battle which would include Darth Maul who I’m sure you’ll agree is a formidable duellist in his own right:

"Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.

Source: Legacy of the Jedi

Dooku was also capable of holding off Yoda in combat during this time period (see my first post for details).

Then you have him as of late TCW being considered to be equal or superior to Mace Windu by Yoda:

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

As you can see the use of the word “perhaps” in the quote clearly suggests Yoda’s uncertain of whether or not Mace can match Dooku indicating Yoda believes Dooku is potentially superior.

Finally, you have Dooku out dueling both Anakin and Kenobi shortly before ROTS:

https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=37

Note: This also serves as a rebuttal to your point about Kenobi being relative to Dooku given in this fight he clearly isn’t depicted as such.

Overall a wealth of feats and accolades suggest Dooku is a top tier Lightsaber duellist with him being suggested to be on par with Yoda and Mace Windu as of TPM before increasing his skills throughout the ten years between TPM and AOTC to the point where he’s capable of outduelling Kenobi and Anakin, is better than Darth Maul, on par with or better than Mace Windu and a near equal to Yoda.

B) Force Abilities

Dooku was capable of throwing simply colossal Ancient Sith ships like footballs with TK without at all exerting himself in an immense demonstration of raw power (link). The ships were described as “giant phantoms” and “hulking wrecks” indicating they were pretty big and these were just the smaller Sith Ships. On top of these Dooku hurls a Sith Cruiser which is obviously bigger than the previously described smaller ships. Star Wars Gamer says Ancient Sith Ships can be 45m, 75m, 215m (1,2).

Now given how the smaller ships were described I believe they were more than likely bigger than your standard 45m Star Ship with a 1 man crew so they’d have to be 75m meaning the cruiser which is bigger than the smaller ships must be 215m and Dooku threw the ships with enough force to fuse them into one solid mass. This solid mass is described as a “mountain” of metal and Anakin can’t climb over it despite being able to climb on top of statues that were akin to those in the Valley of the Dark Lords (link). Overall it’s fairly clear the ships were massive and Dooku throwing them is an amazing feat even if I generously assume that the cruiser was only 75m and the smaller ships were only 45m.

Then you have Dooku pressuring Yoda with his Lightning in AOTC while exhausted (source cited in my opener):

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, losing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

Source: Attack of the Clones Novelization

Given Dooku was able to pressure Yoda with his Lightning while exhausted he most definitely gets scaling over the other Banites given Yoda equaled the strongest of the Banites in a Force Clash (Yoda possible came off looking superior though I don’t really want to get into that).

For starters, we have Dooku scaling above Darth Tenebrous who was capable of containing an explosion which could shake caverns the size of Cathedrals. Tenebrous then endured the final flames of that explosion with a passive barrier while simultaneously holding up large slabs of rock:

Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal'demnic's long year. In pools of standing water darted various species of blind fish. Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.

The gas explosion caught up with them just as they were entering the light-filled cavity at the top of the escarpment. From deep in the tunnel resounded a squealing electronic wail, and at the same time, almost as if the cave system were gasping for breath, a searing wind tore down from a perforation in the grotto's arched ceiling through which the ship had entered. A muffled but ground-heaving detonation followed; then a roiling fireball that was the labyrinth's scorching exhalation. Whirling to the tunnel they had just exited and managing somehow to remain on his feet, Tenebrous conjured a Force shield with his waving arms that met the fireball and contained it, thousands of flaming hawk-bats spiraling within the tumult like windblown embers.

A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.

"Master!" he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.

His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis's intent. Behind him, the fireball's final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.

Credit: Darth Plagueis

Then we have Darth Bane collapsing the Temple of the Ancients with a Force Wave while two decades pre-prime:

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him.

Credit: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Overall based on scaling Dooku is an absolute powerhouse who’s not to be trifled with in terms of Force Power.

4) Conclusion

Dooku has a wealth of evidence favoring him in this matchup be it his incredible saber feats and accolades or his prodigious skills with the Force. Your lol worthy comparisons aside I don’t see a single reason why Krayt can take Dooku. Dooku wins this fight ladies and gentlemen. That is all.

@Azronger The ball's in your court.

Holy shit that was good. Had it's issues but I'm impressed, far more than I was by your mediocre, half assed opener.

Ehhh, not buying all of it. Dooku's parity of Kenobi is understandable and supported we'll see how this goes

Solid post man, well done.

Az could have a field day tbh.

Decent, but has its issues (excluding the fact it wasn't completed within the set deadline agreed on by both debaters prior to the discussion's start). I am mainly referring to unnecessary bullcrap (i.e. "a simple Lol will suffice here"). Like, seriously? That's an actual counter in a serious, formal debate that's part of a larger tournament?

I disagree with many things here, but the post was good overall.

@dark-sith123

Decent, but has its issues (excluding the fact it wasn't completed within the set deadline agreed on by both debaters prior to the discussion's start).

Maybe if I'd been informed of the right date I would have done it on time...

I am mainly referring to unnecessary bullcrap (i.e. "a simple Lol will suffice here"). Like, seriously? That's an actual counter in a serious, formal debate that's part of a larger tournament?

I mean no it's not really a counter but my rebuttals were already presented. It was simply a blanket statement in response to a blanket statement and wasn't intended to be an argument. Also, this is a tad bit hypocritical of you given in "a serious, formal debate" with DC77 you mocked and corrected his grammar.

Whatever though I'm getting off topic here.

No more shitposting or I'll just start purging the thread of off-topic posts.

He asked me to point out his mistakes... I acquiesced.
(Will refrain from derailing the thread further, just couldn't accept being unjustly called a hypocrite and do nothing about it).

Really good post @ArkhamAsylum3

@Xolthol

Thanks.

@Azronger: Reminder that you have until 3/23/2019.

He’s late as hell, then.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Azronger: Reminder that you have until 3/23/2019.

On my screen it shows Arkham posted on May 10th. Two weeks from there is May 24th, not March 23rd.

HP's told me IRL that he'll extend Az's deadline if he doesn't meet it so he doesn't look like a hypocritical coward...

Characters: 17 100 out of 17 500

I. COUNT DOOKU VS OBI-WAN KENOBI

Erm, what…? Your premise for this debate is that given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a fight against Dooku (Kenobi’s supposed near equal) yet you haven’t at all refuted the idea that Dooku can stomp Kenobi on a whim with TK. Instead, you’ve presented the idea that Dooku did it through superior speed and skill instead of power which doesn’t actually refute the feat in question. If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances and will likely do the same to Hett as well. Put simply the idea that Kenobi or Hett can put up a fight against Dooku is utterly absurd when we know for a fact that Dooku can stomp Kenobi with TK whenever he wants and the latter is simply unable to do anything about it. It’s a clear showing of vast superiority however you look at it.

Or perhaps my goal was never to refute the feat in the way that it wouldn’t exist, but merely to refute the belief that it proves Dooku is vastly more powerful than Kenobi? Something that, given your lack of rebuttal to that idea, I appear to have been rather successful at.

Indeed, the only rebuttal of yours is built on a strawman*: that my premise was “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku,” which isn’t stated anywhere in my opener. What I, in actuality, was arguing for was that Hett’s fight with Kenobi puts him on the same power level as Dooku: “Judging by Hett’s performance, it’s likely he’s already near Dooku’s tier before even embracing the dark side.” Whether he can or cannot put up a good fight against Dooku is irrelevant as his power level is the only thing required for my case to adequately function.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 1

On top of that, your argument is also reliant on a hasty generalization.* You’ve taken Darth Tyranus managing to catch Obi-Wan without active Force barriers on and tossing him aside once, and concluded he will be successful every time. It should go without saying that singular instances do not create rules in such circumstantial cases. You say that “If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances” but have you considered that Anakin’s presence may actually have been the reason for Obi-Wan’s mishap there? That perhaps he thought Anakin sufficient to distract Tyranus, making an active Force defense a frivolous waste of energy in that moment?

He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.


Per the above excerpt that I also posted in my opener, that is exactly what Obi-Wan’s thought process is: “Dooku is focused on Anakin, so he can’t attack me simultaneously, so I’ll just sneak up behind him and we’ll take him down together from different angles.” Alas, he was wrong, and his lack of protection resulted in his incapacitation, but nothing thus far proves Kenobi would get demolished every time Dooku decides to lift a finger.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 2

Finally, you have Dooku out dueling both Anakin and Kenobi shortly before ROTS:

https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=37

Note: This also serves as a rebuttal to your point about Kenobi being relative to Dooku given in this fight he clearly isn’t depicted as such.

This duel takes place over five months before Revenge of the Sith (link). No clue why you’re using it as evidence.

1. By the time of the start of the passage you cited the fight was already starting to become “tiring” for Dooku and the text notes that “the dark power that served him went only so far”.

Kenobi was tired as well (link). You treating this as some sort of unfair disadvantage for the Count while ignoring Kenobi’s situation is a double standard.*

*FALLACY COUNTER: 3

3. Dooku was holding back. Prior to the stonewalling but during the passage where Dooku was caught off guard he was not aiming to kill the duo as is made apparent by him noting later in the text that “the comedy had ended” and it was “time to kill”.

Not attempting to land a killing blow from the onset in no way prevents the Count from going all-out when on the defensive nor does it mean he was holding back with regards to Force augmentation or blade maneuvering at any point.

2. The duo had attempted to trick Dooku by not revealing their full strength at the start of the duel. Just prior Dooku had been dancing around the duo effortlessly and was incredibly confident but then they suddenly massively increased the tempo of their attack which clearly surprises Dooku as when Kenobi moves “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished” Dooku thinks “what?” and attempts to disengage to “recover his composure” but doesn’t get the chance as “by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”. You completely ignored the context to Kenobi’s speed feats against Dooku which is that he was taken by surprise, lost his composure and still hadn’t adapted to the massive change in speed as is made blatantly apparent within the text. Under this context Skywalker nearly 3 shots Dooku which he fails to do later when Dooku is even more exhausted and he is rage amped. Also under this context, Dooku doesn’t dare to strike against Kenobi despite doing so later.

I don’t see why Dooku being surprised and losing his composure (meaning his calmness) would diminish his bladework in any significant fashion. The text states Kenobi’s velocity was “so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike,” meaning the reason he didn’t strike was because of how fast it was; nothing about his composure is mentioned. That he attacked later only indicates Kenobi wasn’t spinning his blade as fast that time. And the reason Dooku performed better against Anakin later is because he had replenished his Force reserves: “He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe.”

4. When Kenobi stonewall Dooku the latter was under the pretense that Kenobi was using Ataru. The text notes Dooku “drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades”. If you look at the statement you can very clearly see Dooku aims all of his strikes at Kenobi’s legs because of course as mentioned previously he’s under the pretense Kenobi is using Ataru. Kenobi’s ability to block a few strikes all aimed at the exact same point does not make Kenobi comparable to Dooku and especially not when there is another context to consider namely Dooku having been battered beforehand by Anakin and already having engaged in a lengthy duel.

I don’t see how Dooku thinking Kenobi was using Ataru is relevant.

And Kenobi has two legs, so they weren’t all aimed at the same point, and Dooku can attack from multiple angles, plus his curved hilt adds even more variety to his thrusts. Kenobi not only negating his precision but his speed entirely, being able to remain stationary and only move his arms is a feat from which it is entirely valid to derive parity between them.

Now, let’s talk about Anakin Skywalker for a bit. Once he goes all-out, he beats a fresh Dooku in 12 seconds per the movie, and the novelization basically describes it as a complete stomp. Later on, Anakin muses he feels stronger than ever, putting his Jedi self above his raging, Dooku-stomping, Invisible Hand self. After his fall to the dark side, his power grows even further, leading up to his confrontation against Obi-Wan on Mustafar where he is noted by multiple sources to be better than his Jedi self who is already a Dooku-stomper, and George Lucas’ tier system has Mustafar Vader as a 9, which he only attained by drawing on the dark side, meaning his Dooku-stomping Jedi self is still only an 8. Obi-Wan Kenobi then emptying himself of all his emotional baggage elevated himself to a level on par Mustafar Vader. So even if you don’t want to accept the Invisible Hand comparison, Kenobi outgrows Dooku immensely by the end of Revenge of the Sith regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=123s

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.


He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst-and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him . . . and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.


"Good . . . good . . . Together, we shall master every secret of the Force." The Sith Lord purred like a contented rancor. "You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"

"Yes, my Master."


But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.


The words stabbed at Obi-Wan, even though he knew that Anakin was speaking out of his own pain. He felt the dark side grow stronger, feeding on his despair. And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last he did the thing he hadn’t thought he could do.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&t=16m20s





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXGYNnYmgI&t=1m25s

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.








There is also a flaw in your scaling in that you treat Yoda’s Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith iterations as one and the same. As I just proved, Anakin is far more powerful than Tyranus and capable of defeating him in under 12 seconds, faster than AotC Yoda, and RotS Yoda scales above Anakin as you’ve admitted yourself: “Yoda is factually established as the most powerful Jedi in history.” Yoda was also relative to Darth Sidious, who is more powerful than Mustafar Vader:

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...


Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.


Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.






















The above quotes also establish Yoda as Obi-Wan’s superior, who was able to stalemate Mustafar Vader, meaning they also place Yoda above Mustafar Vader. All in all, we have tons of quotes and your own testimony backing the idea of Yoda being greater than Mustafar Vader and Jedi Anakin. Therefore, RotS Yoda would destroy Dooku much easier than Anakin and AotC Yoda did, and thus Dooku gets no scaling from Yoda’s most powerful Jedi ever quotes. Nothing you’ve presented so far scales him above Darth Krayt.

II. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH KRAYT

Yeah sure Kenobi hadn’t let his reflexes become dull but that doesn’t change the fact that he hadn’t fought with a Lightsaber in combat for two years making him unprepared for a duel (his technical skill would have decreased). I’d also like to point out that given the fact that Kenobi not having fought in a duel for ages is mentioned alongside a slew of other disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett we can logically infer that it’s intended to be a factor at play.

How does Kenobi not having fought anyone in two years mean his technical skill declined when ”he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine” (newsflash: “Jedi exercises” involves lightsaber practise)? Even were you correct, Hett hadn’t fought anyone either, so you treating it as some sort of unfair disadvantage for Kenobi while ignoring Hett’s situation is a double standard.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 4

Also, you describe the list of things going through Kenobi’s head as “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett,” so seeing as one of the factors listed alongside Ben’s lack of recent combat experience, his age, and Hett’s desert fighting experience is “Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons,” are you implying Hett was more skilled than Kenobi? I don’t see why else his skill would be an advantage for him and/or a disadvantage for Ben.

Wat? Of course, it’s fortunate Kenobi maintained his former prowess because otherwise he would have been killed due to slow reactions and would have been unable to overpower Hett. Just as with your previous statements this doesn’t tell us anything about whether Kenobi was going all out or not lmao.

I already explained this in my opener. You’re not refuting anything, just demonstrating you can’t understand the text. But let me help out the confusion: Kenobi retaining his former prowess being “fortunate” implies being on RotS Kenobi’s level is a relevant factor in a fight against Hett. If Obi-Wan could have stomped Hett any time like you argue, him being on par with his RotS self would be unnecessary and irrelevant rather than ”fortunate”; he could still feasibly beat Hett while operating at a much lower level if he could stomp him at full strength. Ergo, the fact that Kenobi retaining his former prowess is a relevant factor indicates he can’t defeat Hett when holding back to the point he could in reality stomp Hett, and therefore we can infer he was going all-out.

And you just said Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, yet your statement “Of course, it’s fortunate Kenobi maintained his former prowess because otherwise he would have been killed due to slow reactions and would have been unable to overpower Hett” implies you believe he is on the level of his RotS self. Which is it? You can’t even maintain consistency between your own arguments, and this here seems like a concession that anyone beneath RotS Kenobi’s level (like Dooku *wink*) would die against Hett.

Quit trying to handwave this argument away. The text specifically attributes Ben knowing he was fighting for Luke as the reason for his victory with it saying that “in the end, Kenobi wasn’t fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke’s.” Why would this be relevant “in the end” if it wasn’t even the motivation for Kenobi’s victory and just a random thought that occurred?

Another strawman argument.* I never said protecting Luke wasn’t Ben’s motivation; I said “warriors’ motivations circulate around their brain constantly. Just because he happened to think of Luke at that particular instant doesn't mean he wasn't serious prior.”

*FALLACY COUNTER: 5

Since you failed to understand my argument, let me explain once more: when I said “warriors’ motivations,” I was speaking of Kenobi’s motivations; when I said “circulate around their brain constantly,” I was speaking of Kenobi’s motivations circulating around his brain during the fight, like when he thinks of his own survival - “As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today” - and later Luke’s: “But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's”; and when I said “Just because he happened to think of Luke at that particular instant doesn’t mean he wasn’t serious prior,” I was speaking of Kenobi happening to think of Luke at that particular instant not meaning he wasn’t motivated by Luke’s survival before that point. Essentially, my argument is that Kenobi was already motivated by Luke’s survival throughout the entire fight, not just at the last second. This is affirmed by the novelization where, once he finds out about the Tuskens’ rampage, the very first thing he thinks of is Luke:

Ben Kenobi had been on Tatooine for nearly two years when he learned about an unusual increase of atrocities committed by Tusken Raiders. According to fragmented reports, the Tuskens had attacked three moisture farms and left seven colonists dead in a single day. But what disturbed Kenobi even more than the killings was the unnerving disturbance in the Force that came with them. It was as if a dark presence had touched upon the desert world, creating an almost tangible trace of evil in the air.

Could it be the Sith? Ben didn't know. All he could do was keep a closer eye on Luke.


In contrast, your argument is essentially Ben going in his head “Oh shit, I just remembered this is the farm where Anakin’s son is living. I better try a bit harder against this guy” as if he hadn’t once thought of the possibility that bloodthirsty Tuskens would kill Luke. Just think for two seconds which stance is more reasonable here.

Spoiler:

Moreover, the novelization reveals the reason why Ben only thought of Luke at the last second during the fight: he didn’t want Hett to discover his existence, so he emptied his mind of Anakin and Luke in case Hett happened to sense his thoughts.

Ben did not know whether Hett was aware that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. But if Hett knew—as Qui-Gon's spirit claimed—that Anakin was responsible for killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother, Ben could only imagine what Hett might do if he discovered the existence of Anakin Skywalker's son. Ben suspected that Hett knew nothing about Luke, if only because Luke was still alive. If Hett's sole purpose on Tatooine had been to kill Luke, Luke would probably be dead already. Now, as Hett approached, Ben banished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

However, you do raise an interesting point in that “The text specifically attributes Ben knowing he was fighting for Luke as the reason for his victory.” Admittedly I hadn’t considered this before, but Luke is an external motivator here; Obi-Wan didn’t have Luke to spur him on in his duels against Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grievous, or Darth Vader. Ergo, if an external motivator is cited as the reason for Obi-Wan’s victory, it can be inferred he was operating at a higher level than usual when he defeated Hett. For example, consider the following feat:

The bloodwolf alone comprehends death.

And, therefore, the sweet pungency of life; howling his mournful wisdom, into the immeasurable night, to his estranged brethren the stars.

A bloodwolf is fearless. And though the Wise Prince will fight fang-and-claw to the death, maim and kill-

He also runs.

At a dead sprint, a bloodwolf, cub in jaws, can achieve velocities of eighty kilometers per hour.

On the Smuggler’s Moon, a Jedi Master with his newborn Padawan ran faster.

Nar Shaddaa itself, circling the massive jewel of Nal Hutta, spins on its axis at a respectable one hundred and seventy kilometers per hour…

Obi-Wan Kenobi ran faster.

And on a sand-lacerated mesa, a podracer utterly butchers distances at six hundred kilometers per hour.

Obi-Wan-

Ran-

Faster.

The Jedi Master ran over one hundred and sixty-five meters per second.

More than six hundred kilometers per hour.

No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn’t know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul’s singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

To call him a blur, a smear of speed, was to substitute poor poetry in favor of truth.

Space contracted - time distended.

Obi-Wan was a fulmination on reality.

Obi-Wan was Truth.

Obi-Wan literally blazed with kinetic light as he blistered through the Nar Shaddaan streets. And with every impossible angle he cornered, every slow-moving raindrop he dodged, every being he spared spontaneous combustion from contact with his supernatural momentum, the Jedi Master felt his muscles, his atoms, his very essence, rebelling into pandemonium.

Obi-Wan was - factually - flying apart.

When motivated by Luke’s safety, Kenobi is able to run faster than any Force user in history to the point where his atoms are literally coming apart. For the record, I’m not suggesting Kenobi couldn’t have beaten Hett without Luke motivating him, but it would have been far more difficult than in the actual story. Either Hett kept up with a super-amped Obi-Wan for a lengthy period of time, or Obi-Wan only stomped him through said amplification - no matter which way you try to argue it, Hett comes out looking like a peer of standard RotS Kenobi here.

So what? Neither of these factors proves Kenobi wasn’t holding back for the whole fight when he’s specifically noted to be trying “to avoid killing Hett” merely that because Kenobi’s holding back Hett can actually hit him and he needs to maintain absolute focus because of it.

Again, trying not to kill doesn’t prevent him from seriously attempting to block Hett’s attacks.

For the rest of the sentence, it’s so poorly phrased I genuinely can’t figure out what your argument is, so I’ll just let you clarify in your next post.

I agree with you that the even with the environment at play Kenobi wouldn’t speedblitz Hett. However, I do think the environment was a significant factor (your hand waving notwithstanding). Please enlighten me why it’s a “negligent/trivial” factor when it’s emphasized twice throughout the text. It’s obviously intended to be a significant factor and it is primarily attributed as the reason for Kenobi struggling against Hett’s blows: “Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn’t doing so with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.”

The full paragraph reads: “Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.” Per your logic, the reason Hett has more desert fighting experience is that he’s never going to relent, which makes no sense. Two sentences back-to-back doesn’t in itself mean causation, so Hett’s desert fighting experience being the cause of Ben’s struggle to block his strikes isn’t necessarily the case. The sentences are independent statements that collectively reinforce the idea of Kenobi being worried about Hett outlasting him, but there is no causative interrelation between them.

Unlike Kenobi though both of these combatants had actually fought with a Lightsaber in combat recently. Plus the sand can be a disadvantage if the opposing fighter is using it effectively against you but given neither of these fighters had fought in that environment before they, of course, didn’t know how to use that environment to their advantage.

Good point: “the sand can be a disadvantage if the opposing fighter is using it effectively against you.” Kenobi presumably knew this, and thus it’s included in the list of things that could potentially be detrimental to him. But given Hett only exploited the environment once, the sand didn’t disturb Kenobi’s dueling at all, and again, “something as trivial as sand beneath their boots isn't going to boost their precognition, augmentation, reflexes or clarity of mind - far more pertinent factors in a lightsaber duel than simple technique or raw skill” - the desert ground probably wasn’t a factor at all in the actual blade-to-blade fencing that took up the majority of the duel.

In fact, now that I think about it, the entire fight is from Kenobi’s perspective. Looking at the paragraph again - “It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.” - it reads as if Ben is simply reminding himself not to have any doubts about the fight, not necessarily that these are actual, active factors contributing to it, similar to Anakin against Dooku: “Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith— But Palpatine’s words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.” None of these are real concerns for Anakin but thinking about them would nonetheless ”freeze away his strength,” the same as Kenobi knowing ”that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.” For example, why would Kenobi being Hett’s senior by only ten years be relevant? That didn’t hinder him against Vader. In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer. And if we don’t treat it as a factor, then Hett’s experience in the desert also wouldn’t have mattered beyond the possibility of him exploiting the ground against Kenobi, which he briefly did only once.

I disagree. The most you’ve proven is that Hett with an environmental advantage managed to briefly pressure Kenobi while the latter was holding back and hadn’t used a Lightsaber in two years. This hardly proves Jedi Hett is anywhere close to Dooku given the latter has dismissed Kenobi with TK while being battered by an enraged Anakin whereas the former got stomped once Kenobi went all out.

To me it looks like Kenobi still isn’t going for the kill here:



Multiple times now you’ve professed your belief that a dearth of fatal intent means one is holding back, but here you say Kenobi went all-out even though he wasn’t aiming to kill. This is the second time you’ve contradicted yourself now.

And let’s look at this “stomp” again: “Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm.” That’s far too opportunistic of a victory for me to call it a stomp. All he did was Force push Hett and take his arm when he was open. Yes, he created that opening himself, but it wasn’t through overwhelming power or sheer skill with the blade, just a good mix of craftiness and timing.

As for your comments on Krayt’s power growth, I have no complaints

Good. Darth Krayt (Legacy # 1) >>>> A’Sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi (amped) > Obi-Wan Kenobi (standard) = Darth Vader (pre-suit) > Anakin Skywalker >>> Count Dooku. The feats you brought up for the Count are irrelevant and not in need of addressing as Krayt scales massively above them anyway.

III. DARTH KRAYT VS KARNESS MUUR

A) KRAYT’S CONDITION

Darth Krayt had been ignoring the coral seeds devouring him for the past seven years since Legacy # 1, but could not longer afford to do so, indicating his ailment was worsening. He captures Cade Skywalker, hoping he could heal him, but Cade escapes his clutches. Legacy # 27 reveals that “Cade’s escape has left the Emperor weakened”, and he found his body “disintegrating”. Said escape happened in Legacy # 19. In between the two issues, Krayt rejuvenates his body in a stasis chamber and by feeding on the terror of the Mon Calamari population. Yet he is still “weakened” - this means it’s permanent. So in his fight with Muur, he’s had two major decreases in power since Legacy # 1, the severity of which is highlighted by Krayt’s comments on his condition at the start of the series compared to them from just prior to his encounter with Muur: “My body fails me, Wyyrlok [...] How long have I fought this thing which threatens to take me over and make me not myself? How much longer can I keep it at bay? A decade or two perhaps… not more.” vs. “My time is running out, Wyyrlok. I can feel it. My… control of the coral seeds the Yuuzhan Vong planted within me wanes. Soon I will be a mindless thing. Or a corpse.”

B) KARNESS AND CELESTE’S POWER

The Muur Talisman is an item Karness Muur uses as an anchor for his spirit to remain in the physical realm. The Talisman is capable of tying itself to a victim and allowing Muur to possess them if their will is lesser than his, and manifest his power through them: “The Talisman has always sought out a powerful Force user so that Muur would have access to Force powers through them.” Should the victim’s will be stronger than Muur’s, they can retain control of their body, but still be able to draw on Muur’s power to bolster their own: “I can feel you tapping into Muur’s dark power to fight me, Jedi.” The strong-willed victim can also lend their body over to Muur while retaining their consciousness and individuality, to the result of combining the powers of themselves and Muur: “Your power will be mine and my power will be yours.”







Celeste Morne resisted Karness Muur for 136 years. Willpower has been stated by Darths Plagueis, Sidious, and Wyyrlok III to be the main factor in Force power, so it should be a reliable indicator of a Force user’s overall strength. Thus, Morne keeping Muur at bay for such a long time demonstrates she is at least as powerful as he, if not more so. This is corroborated when Muur states she is “a suitable host,” meaning her body can house his spirit, and when the two combine their powers, her body endures fine, demonstrating her midi-chlorian count is well in excess of Muur’s original body.

C) THE FIGHT ITSELF

The skirmish starts as Morne sicks her rakghouls on Krayt. Given the comic cuts away for six pages to focus on the other fights before Krayt fries the rakghouls, he probably brawled with them for a decent while. This is important as Krayt gets fatigued very quickly. Even as of Legacy # 1, his slaughter of the Imperial Knights that lasted only a few seconds took a toll on him. Seven years later, his relatively short bout with Cade permanently weakened him and he was forced to go into stasis. The brawl with the rakghouls would be another major power decrease Krayt suffered before taking Muur on.







Krayt engages Muur. They only appear to clash lightsabers once after which Muur turns the rakghouls loose on everyone. Celeste then reasserts her control and starts fighting Krayt. Krayt and Darth Maladi blast her with lightning, and Muur states alone she would lose to Krayt. Given Morne is as powerful as Muur, this means Muur himself weaker than Krayt.





As a response, Celeste begins drawing on Muur’s power and clashes blades with Krayt once more. Morne and Muur combine their powers as indicated by the speech bubble (Morne’s lines are black, Muur’s red; here they merge, indicating both are in control), making their fusion twice as powerful as ancient Muur. They feed on Krayt’s power, making them even stronger and Krayt even weaker.











Azlyn Rae then stabs Krayt through the shoulder while Morne-Muur blasts him with a Force maelstrom that sends him flying off a cliff. Yet Krayt still lives despite all these factors and was even able to negate the worst of Morne-Muur’s lightning as his skin is as it used to be versus Azlyn’s being scorched, and after that still had the Force reserves to break his 100-meter-fall. Muur, whose power had more than doubled, couldn’t kill 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack that was also mostly mitigated by Krayt, and you think a non-amped Muur is stronger than a fresh Krayt? A simple lol will suffice here.

Karness Muur was established to be more powerful than Darth Krayt during the events of Legacy by the solicitation for Legacy Issue 31

The quote proposes a possibility, not declare Karness Muur is definitively more powerful than Darth Krayt. “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?” It’s a marketing statement meant to hype up the comic as a whole, and therefore doesn’t even necessarily refer to the fight itself. At the end of the issue, Krayt is seemingly killed and Muur threatens to possess Cade Skywalker - that’s an entirely plausible setup to tease the following: “But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?” From the comic itself, we know that in a combative context, Muur is weaker than Krayt at the brink of death. And regardless, as a publisher’s summary, it has the same veracity as a blurb at the back of a book: not objective evidence per Leland Chee.