Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Anakin Skywalker / Darth Krayt

October 26th 2019, 4:49 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Here I will made a case for Darish Vol being above Unuthul and KF Vader/Yoda

CASE AGAINST KF VADER/YODA

~Parity of Yoda and KF Vader~

Basically, this part will be a response to the case made by @KingofBlades in the last round for KF Vader being above Yoda.

First of all, the comparison of the Dooku fights is faulty by one important aspect. Indeed, Anakin seems to destroy Dooku way more efficiently than Yoda. Nonetheless, KoB forget that Dooku lightsaber style Makashi is weaker against power-based strikes. And Anakin style which is Djem So hugely rely on powerful strikes while the Ataru figthing style of Yoda use not lots of them. This point can clearly explained why the showing of Anakin against Dooku was better.

The second point made by KoB was about Anakin having as the same force mastery than anyone on the council. But his theory isn't really back up by the quote he used:

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself

This quote is about power in the Force, not mastery of this power "Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi". And the last part only proof that Anakin was trying to achieve mastery of the Force not that he successfully reach it "the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force".

The last part about KF Vader being above Yoda by a quote is just once again too fast to stand. KoB claimed that:" KFV is said to possess unparalled power in the force" based on this quote "With his unparalleled Force abilitieS, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple". The main problem here is the fact that the quote didn't focus on Vader power but on Vader powerS which isn't the same thing at all. This isn't the proof that KF Vader is above Yoda in term of force power and even less by a huge margin.

Now lets just add a little reflexion about the end of RotS. Yoda decided to confront Sidious and to sent Obi-Wan facing Vader. Yoda is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, he is nearly 900 years old and because of this should have a good knowledge of the impact of the Dark Side on a jedi and about the power of Anakin.
With all of this in your mind, there is two possibilities here:

Yoda known that Anakin was more powerful than Sidious but instead of facing the most powerful of the two sith lords he decided to send Obi-Wan who is less powerful than him and who cannot defeat Sidious. Basically hejust send Obi-Wan to a certain death.
Yoda know that Anakin is less powerful than Sidious so decided to faced him and sent Obi-Wan against the weakest of the two sith.

I think that everyone agree on the fact that the second one is just way more likely. Therefore we have that Sidious > KF Vader. And because of his parity with Sidious, we have that Yoda> KF Vader.

Ok now I agree that some accolades that KoB gives seems to put KF Vader in the league of Yoda. Based on this I really think that we can talk of a parity between the two at most for Anakin.

~Scaling from RotS Sidious~

We know that Sidious growth in power by a pretty good margin between RotS and RotJ. In addition to this, we have that DE Sidious is the most powerful iteration of Palpatine. Based on this we have that that DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious ~Yoda ~KF Vader.

The same DE Sidious have been defeated in lightsaber fight by DE Luke. Knowing that Luke have insanely grown in power between DE and FotJ (cf the blog from the Elimist about this if you want more details about it [link]) we have that:

FotJ Luke >(lots of)> DE Luke > DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious ~Yoda ~KF Vader in lightsaber fight.

In addition to this the fact that Luke can open himself fully to the Force puts him clearly above DE Sidious in term of Force power.

FotJ Luke >> DE Sidious > RotJ Sidious >> RotS Sidious ~Yoda ~KF Vader in force power.

~Grand Lord Darish Vol~

Now come the interresting part, we have that Darish Vol is stated by Abeloth herself to have an impressive power, comparing him directly to Luke itself:

Vol had much of the power of Skywalker, combined with experience, and it had been a devastating encounter.

Now there is two questions here:

What Abeloth know of Luke power ?
What "much of the power" can refer to ?

The answer to the first question is pretty easy, Abeloth know exactly how powerful is Luke. Indeed, during on of their fight, she faced Luke opening himself fully to the Force:

Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin- cells literally bursting with the power of the Force-and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor. -

FotJ: Vortex

So when she is talking about Luke power, she exactly know how powerful this latter is. The comparison that she made is based on full power FotJ Luke.

The second question is more tricky. Indeed, "much of" isn't a clear proportion of power of someone. However, the Cambridge dictionnary state that "much" can be define as :"a large amount or to a large degree". Because of this we know that the power of Darish Vol is a large amount of the one of FotJ Luke. Indeed this is still not so clear but this is more than enough to put Darish above the like of KF Vader or Yoda. By the scaling that we have for Luke, it is clearly obvious that Luke wouldn't need a "large amount" of his power to defeat either Yoda or KF Vader.

Because of this we have that Darish Vol is more powerful than Yoda and KF Vader.

CASE AGAINST UNUTHUL

~Comparing Luke to Unuthul~

We know that Unuthul was a powerful foe of Luke Skywalker. Nonetheless, this happens prior FotJ so in a time where Luke was less powerful. In addition to this, the two main confrontation of this two fighters each time ended in favor of Luke.

First of all the TP battle:

"No." Luke touched Raynar through the Force. "You're still a Jedi. You can sense when a person is telling the truth. You can sense it in me, now."
Hoping to force his Will on his captor, Raynar accepted the contact-as Luke had known he would-then gasped in astonishment as he sensed the truth in what Luke was saying. "How?"
"Because as long as you are the Prime Unu, Lomi Plo will be the queen of the Gorog." Luke began to press, as though he were trying to force his will on Raynar. "And as long as there is a Gorog, the Colony will be a threat to the Chiss."
Raynar began to pull, learning from Luke's earlier tactics and trying to use Luke's own attack against him. "The Chiss are a threat to the Colony."
Luke went along with Raynar-in fact, he pushed even harder.
"That's right. The Chiss are a threat to the Colony," Luke said. "They have developed a weapon that can wipe out the entire Colony. They tried to use it here. Jaina and Zekk stopped them ... but we both know they have more."
Backed by Luke's strength, the truth was too much for Raynar. His Will broke, and his resolve turned to panic. "We know," he admitted.
Luke continued to push. "And they'll use it-if you stay with the Colony."
Raynar shook his head. "We can't let them."
"Then you have to leave," Luke said. "It's the only way to save the Killiks."
A terrible sadness came to Raynar's melted face. He lowered his burned eyelids and reluctantly began to nod-then suddenly stopped and glanced toward the hatch through which he had burst earlier.
#########################################################################################
"Not the only way." Raynar's voice assumed a dark tone, and Luke knew his true target was finally preparing to show herself. "Maybe there is a weapon to kill the Chiss?"
Luke resisted the temptation to look toward the hatch. Lomi Plo would not show herself if she knew she was expected.
"Even if there was such a weapon, it wouldn't he right to use it," Luke said. "The Jedi won't permit speciecide against the Chiss-any more than we would against the Killiks."
"But you could . . . if it was self-defense." Raynar bared his jagged teeth in a try at a grin. "Destroying the Chiss would be self-defense, so you would have to permit it."
Raynar began to push back now, filling Luke's chest with the dark weight of UnuThul's Will.
"If it were self-defense, we might have to permit it," Luke said, playing along-and again using Raynar's own attack against him. "But even that wouldn't save the Colony. It cannot survive as it is. We know that."
"How do we know that?" Raynar demanded angrily. "We know no such thing."
"We might," Luke insisted, exerting his own will through the Force again, reeling Raynar in. "If the Colony grew too large, it would devour its own worlds and destroy itself."
"There are always more worlds," Raynar countered.
"Not always," Luke said. "Sometimes all of the other worlds are taken. That could have been what happened when the Killiks disappeared from Alderaan." He paused, then used the Force to pull as hard as he could, trying to draw Raynar into his own view of reality. "In fact, I'm sure that's what happened on Alderaan. The Killiks devoured their own world and tried to take someone else's. That's the reason the Celestials drove the Killiks into the Unknown Regions."
The fight finally went out of Raynar. "You're sure?" He folded his cauterized forearm stump across his stomach and cradled it with his other arm, his lips quivering in pain and tears welling in his eyes.

While in the first part of the confrontation, Luke was just trying to remind Unuthul that he was a jedi (Raynar) and was back up by the truth (before the red # line). In the second part, he sucessfully impose "his own view of reality" to Unuthul, clearly showing that he is in TP more powerful than Unuthul.

In addition to this TP fight, we also have the real fight of Luke against Unuthul where the Grand Master literraly ragdoll Unuthul in sheer TK:

The Master sighed and shook his head. "What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?" he asked. "You learn nothing from your mistakes."
Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

But when Raynar's free hand rose, it was not to summon the Force lightning that Luke had expected. It was to call his lightsaber back, to attempt to continue the battle that he obviously could no longer win.
It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body

As you can see here, Unuthul is just literally dominate by Luke thanks to its TK.

Moreover we have the time where Luke works at full power against a colony drawing Unuthul:

He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.
But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.

Here once again, we can constate the insane superiority of Luke over Raynar in term of sheer power.

Last but not least, we also have the fact that Luke literraly stomp Unuthul in lightsaber fight:

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.
As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.
But Raynar was a Jedi, and all Jedi were quick. He caught himself in the Force, levitating himself just long enough to bring his golden blade sweeping in at Luke's shoulder.
Luke had no choice but to block with his blade, and no place to block but the forearm. Raynar's lightsaber went spinning off, still securely in the grasp of his three-fingered hand, and caught one of Luke's bugcrunchers squarely in the back. The weapon sliced through six centimeters of laminanium armor before the severed forearm flew free. The blade deactivated, and the hilt disappeared into the tangle of death and destruction at the droid's feet

As you can see, Luke easily sever one arm of Unuthul in seconds after the start of the fight, clearly showing that he is just above Unuthul by a wide margin.

In this part, we have seen that Dark Nest Luke >>> Unuthul both in TK, TP and lightsaber fight.

~Darish Vol~

As explain in my previous part of the post, Darish Vol have a large amount of the power of FotJ Luke Skywalker. In addition to this, we also have an interresting feat for Darish Vol and a pretty good scaling for him to.

The feat is obviously his TP battle with the force entity known as Abeloth. Even though I agree that Abeloth is sometimes really inconsistent, little time after this fight , she destroy the capital city of Kesh [1]. This feat allow us to understand how powerful was Abeloth at the time of this fight. In addition the context of the fight itself isn't at all in favor of Vol who have been taken by surprise in his dream [2].

[1]" Abeloth reacts by blasting a Force shock wave that devastates the city of Tahv" and "she had destroyed his precious city, unleashing her outrage and fury on the site of her shame"

[2] "Sleep found him quickly. And so did something else. He stood, alone, on the lavender shores of the ocean, lightsaber held in one gnarled hand. The heat was oppressive, the sun beating down on him more strongly than it did even in the height of summer. His robes were heavy, far too heavy, and he became aware immediately that this was much more than a simple dream"

The interresting scaling is based on the High Lord Ivaar Workan who faced Luke in lightsaber fight:

Luke and Workan had already joined battle in a whirling tempest of color and smashed office furnishings [...] turned toward the battle between Luke and Workan. A swath of shattered glass and smoking furniture marked the path their fight had taken to the rear part of the room. It seemed clear from the crooked route that the fight had been both desperate and well matched, but now Workan was finally being forced to retreat past his desk.

As we can see, even though Luke had the upper hand, Workan give him a good fight as explained shown by the expression "well matched". This fight is way more impressive than the one that Unuthul gives to Luke in term of lightsaber fight. And keep in the mind that was a fight against a more powerful version of Luke.

We also must keep in the mind the fact that Ivaar Workan despite being a High Lord stand no chance against someone like Darish Vol who seems clearly in another league than him in term of power:

If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now

Workan did not know how Roki Kem had managed to defeat an unmatched Force user such as Grand Lord Vol, and he could hardly ask her

Both of this are a clear proof of Darish superiority over Workan allowing us to think that Vol would be an powerful opponent to someone like Luke.

~Conclusion~

Grand Lord Darish Vol scaled vastly above High Lord Ivaar Workan who have put a better lightsaber fight than Unuthul against a better version of Luke.
Grand Lord Darish Vol have mentally wounded an insanely powerful froce entity known as Abeloth while Unuthul was mind dominated by Luke Skywalker
Unuthul was ragdolled by Luke Skywalker in TK something that is really unlikely to happen to Grand Lord Darish Vol knowing that he had a large amount of the power of Luke Skywalker.

Because of all of this there is no reasons to have Unuthul above Darish Vol.

October 26th 2019, 5:22 pm

KingofBlades wrote:@BreakofDawn https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1378p25-revan-knightfall-vader-vs-vaylin-valkorion#27673

If so confident you are, why not answer

1. I forgot.
2. Contrary to what you might think, debating Outlander vs Vaylin is an utter headcase for me because I believe the Outlander is only slightly superior, and I absolutely hate debating the two.
3. I forgot.

October 26th 2019, 5:31 pm

Darish Vol, KFV and Yoda are locked at tier 9.

October 26th 2019, 5:35 pm

I'll write up a rebuttal on Monday

October 26th 2019, 5:36 pm

Relax BoD I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to make a yoda pun

October 26th 2019, 5:47 pm

Well, the arguments presented for Vol were similar to mine. I do think he’s definitely a tier 9 although I lowered him.

October 26th 2019, 7:02 pm

KingofBlades wrote:Relax BoD I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to make a yoda pun

I know, lol. Just thought I'd mention it.

October 26th 2019, 9:04 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:Well, the arguments presented for Vol were similar to mine. I do think he’s definitely a tier 9 although I lowered him.

What thing made you have Vol below Unuthul ?

October 27th 2019, 3:08 am

Xolthol wrote:What thing made you have Vol below Unuthul ?

I don’t buy his hype all that much anymore. I think the much of the power quote, while obviously impressive, could apply to any character who is Plagueis level or above. And I really think the Workan feat is not indicative of superiority to Unu. Luke just doesn’t consistently employ his full power in a fight (which he was forced to do against Unu), add that to the fact that Luke was trying to capture Workan alive, and it really seals the deal for me. I do think Vol and Unu are around the same level (probably Yoda/KFV), but Unu is an overall greater threat and I do see him replicating Vol’s feat in ascension giving him the same knowledge. Furthermore, we know that when it came to facing Abeloth in the real world he was killed. As you know, the scene is not described and happens off-screen, so there is the possibility he might have been defeated easily.

October 27th 2019, 8:30 pm

I'm giving my vote to Plagueis.

October 28th 2019, 11:39 pm

Krayt Reborn

October 29th 2019, 12:07 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I'll go with Yoda for now.

October 29th 2019, 7:42 am

Yoda should have been fourth tbh

October 29th 2019, 7:51 am

EmperorCaedus wrote:Hero of Tython

You mean the Outlander, right? HoT isn't even in the top 25.

As for KFV vs Yoda, each of the Lucas quotes are explicitly referring to Anakin just before he got walloped by Obi-Wan, indicating that it was unhindered Mustafar Vader that was their equal, not KFV. Not to mention that it's not uncommon for a Force user, especially one who falls to the Dark Side, to continue growing considerably even after their initial boost from their fall. Yoda and Sheev should still be > KFV.

October 29th 2019, 8:17 am

KFV For the win.

October 29th 2019, 9:23 am

Gianfi wrote:Yoda should have been fourth tbh

October 29th 2019, 9:42 am

anyone mind if name vader? not for the next rank, obviously, just for a place in the top 15?

October 29th 2019, 9:48 am

If you think he deserves a spot, then make a case for him whenever you think it appropriate.

October 29th 2019, 9:59 am

uh, ok. i dont have time now, but sure. i will later on for sure

October 29th 2019, 3:47 pm

@xolthol

First of all, the comparison of the Dooku fights is faulty by one important aspect. Indeed, Anakin seems to destroy Dooku way more efficiently than Yoda. Nonetheless, KoB forget that Dooku lightsaber style Makashi is weaker against power-based strikes. And Anakin style which is Djem So hugely rely on powerful strikes while the Ataru figthing style of Yoda use not lots of them. This point can clearly explained why the showing of Anakin against Dooku was better.

Regardless Dooku would still be able to compensate via augmentation. In fact Anakin makes notes of this in Path of the Jedi when he says that anyone can augment their strength in the force. Dooku also decided to change tactics mid fight to compensate by choosing to guide the strikes away from his body instead of attempting to block them straight up. All this accomplished was changing the fight from a stomp in Anakin's favor to merely a dominating gap. I also think you misunderstood one of my premises. I never said the fight showed a direct power comparison between Anakin and Yoda. If I did, I would have stated IH Anakin(pre Zone)>Yoda, which I didn't. Factors like form advantages and gillard's statements are what prevent IH Anakin from being outright greater than Yoda. I merely argued that Anakin was only comparable to Yoda at that point and he only surpasses Yoda once he goes Zonakin. Which is something you haven't refuted

This quote is about power in the Force, not mastery of this power "Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi". And the last part only proof that Anakin was trying to achieve mastery of the Force not that he successfully reach it "the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force".

Obi Wan is choosing to conflate applicable power in the force and mastery in the force. So he's obviously saying that Anakin has exceptional mastery in the force. You must also note the following line in the final quote you provided, [size=13]"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself." . So the quote wasn't trying to say Anakin had yet to achieve mastery of the force, rather the opposite. Anakin had already ahcieved mastery in the force, but had yet to achieve mastery over his emotions. This makes sense when you consider that a sub par mastery over the force was never a reason mentioned as to why Anakin had yet to be promoted to master. It was always his emotions. Considering the council's bias against Anakin, a low mastery over the force would have been a prime excuse to use to justify Anakin not being promoted.[/size]

The last part about KF Vader being above Yoda by a quote is just once again too fast to stand. KoB claimed that:" KFV is said to possess unparalled power in the force" based on this quote "With his unparalleled Force abilitieS, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple". The main problem here is the fact that the quote didn't focus on Vader power but on Vader powerS which isn't the same thing at all. This isn't the proof that KF Vader is above Yoda in term of force power and even less by a huge margin.

[size=13]Really? You're arguing that it meant the quantity of Anakin's abilities were unparalleled rather than his actual power in the force. There's no way the quote can work under this interpretation when Sidious should know a far greater number of techniques since he's mastered traditional DS techniques as well as sith sorcery, MM, and various other esoteric abilities. The only way the quote makes any logical sense is if it was referring to the potency of Anakin's power, rather than the number of techniques he knew. We see this wording in the novel/movie when Anakin tells Dooku, "My powers have doubled since the last time we met count". Do you really think Anakin was referring to the number of abilities he knew? No, of course not. He's referring to his overall power in the force. There's no reason to force this very clunky interpretation that makes no logical sense based off of the usage of the plural form of power, when it makes far more sense to believe its referring to overall potency in the force, and when this usage of "powers" is used following my interpretation in the novel/movie itself.[/size]

Now lets just add a little reflexion about the end of RotS. Yoda decided to confront Sidious and to sent Obi-Wan facing Vader. Yoda is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, he is nearly 900 years old and because of this should have a good knowledge of the impact of the Dark Side on a jedi and about the power of Anakin.
With all of this in your mind, there is two possibilities here:

Yoda known that Anakin was more powerful than Sidious but instead of facing the most powerful of the two sith lords he decided to send Obi-Wan who is less powerful than him and who cannot defeat Sidious. Basically hejust send Obi-Wan to a certain death.
Yoda know that Anakin is less powerful than Sidious so decided to faced him and sent Obi-Wan against the weakest of the two sith.

[size=13]
There's reason to believe that Yoda's appraisal of Vader's power is inaccurate. Yoda at this point knows that Anakin has the power to defeat Count Dooku and has seen Anakin effortlessly eliminate Cin Drallig. However Anakin defeated Dooku before he got his power growth upon becoming Darth Vader. And since Vader defeated Drallig so easily, he can't use this battle to accurately guage Vader's full power. So out of the two reference points Yoda has to judge KFV's power, one is outdated and the other is incapable of being used to ascertain the upper limits of Vader's power. Yoda also knows that Sidious single handedly eliminated Mace Windu and the rest of the B Team. Out of these three reference points Yoda has to judge the individual power of the two dark lords, Sidious's feat is far more impressive. However as I've already explained why Yoda's reference points for Vader's power don't accurately reflect Vader's current power, Yoda's appraisal of Vader's power compared to Sidious's cannot be considered accurate.Yoda also knows Obi Wan is intimately familiar with Anakin's fighting style so even if Anakin was stronger than Sidious, Obi Wan's familiarity would give him a better shot against him than the relative unknown in Sidious. Regardless Yoda's opinion on who is stronger between Vader and Sheev cannot be considered accurate for the reasons I've given.[/size]

October 29th 2019, 3:48 pm

I couldn't get your numbered points to get in the quote box for some reason.

October 29th 2019, 4:24 pm

I'd love to make a devil's advocate case for Starkiller here, but I barely have any time currently and the time I do have is better spent on writing SS posts.

OT - Definitely KF Vader.

@xolthol

Don't have time for a full rebuttal but:

Indeed, Anakin seems to destroy Dooku way more efficiently than Yoda. Nonetheless, KoB forget that Dooku lightsaber style Makashi is weaker against power-based strikes. And Anakin style which is Djem So hugely rely on powerful strikes while the Ataru figthing style of Yoda use not lots of them. This point can clearly explained why the showing of Anakin against Dooku was better.

This blatantly isn't the reason Anakin hammered Dooku so hard lmao. Anakin's form advantage is mentioned precisely once in the entire novel description of the fight, and it's while Anakin was explicitly LS. When Anakin goes DS and unleashes his rage and fury it's pretty much made clear that Dooku wasn't getting stomped due to any form disadvantage on his part, he was getting stomped because Anakin was just plainly far better; Dooku's mastery of swordplay and knowledge of the Force were useless next to Anakin's unprecedented power.

October 29th 2019, 5:39 pm

Thanks HP

October 29th 2019, 5:41 pm

Wait this dude is HP?

October 29th 2019, 5:43 pm

He seems like it.

*CASE AGAINST KF VADER/YODA*