Rank These Characters in Potential

WalkingInCircles wrote:
Will go in-depth later but as a brief thing:

1. He lied about leaving.
2. He's been shown to be able to easily deceive Satele and Marr, with even their combined senses barely being able to detect him. Her claim that Valk was responsible is therefore kinda suspect.
3. When we see fragments of his memory in KOTET, one of them suggests that the entire thing was a giant charade conducted as an experiment with no help from him:

"I pretended to abandon you on Odessen, but my departure was a ruse. Trapped in your mind, I silently observed how you behaved in my absence. Your strength grew. Your vulnerabilities festered."


Valk treats the whole thing like a "gotcha" moment. He talks as though he actually had no involvement and was actually just curious about what would happen if he pretended to leave and provided no help whatsoever. Plus, there's the fact that the Outlander keeps growing and doesn't just have one jump in power, which seems a bit weird.

4. It's the new training he undergoes that seems to be the main catalyst for the Outlander's growth in power, which is alluded to several times.
5. Prior to this, Valk makes numerous references to the Outlander's static nature, whereby he can't "reach (his) full potential" or "become something greater" until he adopts the new lessons Satele and Marr give him to unlock his growth.

Ah, okay, I see what you are referring to now. I wasn't referencing the Valkorion hand-wave we see in Chapter 12 of KOTFE that knocks the Outlander out. Valkorion had to modify the Outlander's vessel over the course of KOTFE/KOTET so that it could potentially contain the combined power of his spirit as well as his children's since the Outlander's body wasn't capable of channeling Valkorion's power properly as we see in the fight with Arcann in Chapter 8 of KOTFE.

"You were an exemplary pawn--one I forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit. Now I take your body as my own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor."

And as we see here he can absorb Arcann and Vaylin's spirit upon their death, adding to his own power: https://youtu.be/vXNzA4p4HE4

When you take into consideration the Sith Inquisitor story line and how absorbing and using the power of too many spirits causing one to essentially go past their body's potential can lead to devastating effects, then Valkorion obviously did some tinkering. The "experiments" line supports this as well I think. Unless you believe that the Outlander was already capable of containing all of them from the get-go which obviously isn't the case given Valkorion's "forged into a vessel of supreme power" line.

Ah, okay, I see what you are referring to now. I wasn't referencing the Valkorion hand-wave we see in Chapter 12 of KOTFE that knocks the Outlander out. Valkorion had to modify the Outlander's vessel over the course of KOTFE/KOTET so that it could potentially contain the combined power of his spirit as well as his children's since the Outlander's body wasn't capable of channeling Valkorion's power properly as we see in the fight with Arcann in Chapter 8 of KOTFE.

"You were an exemplary pawn--one I forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit. Now I take your body as my own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor."

And as we see here he can absorb Arcann and Vaylin's spirit upon their death, adding to his own power: https://youtu.be/vXNzA4p4HE4

I laid out part of the case for Valk being weaker in spirit form than normally in my Arcann RT, so I'll just quote the relevant parts:

As we have seen in the past, the destruction of Valkorion’s host body has always weakened him. As a result of the Barsen’Thor actions, Valkorion had been weakened considerably before his climactic duel with the HoT in act 3. The Barsen’Thor weakened the Emperor by destroying his “Children”, who through their link with Vitiate had a considerable share of his power:


Despite the Jedi Council's best efforts, only a little is known of the so-called Children of the Emperor. Infants of all species taken before the Sith Emperor, the children are infused with the Emperor's strength, sharing some measure of his thoughts and power for the rest of their lives. They become the Emperor's eyes and ears, and--should the Emperor focus his presence upon them--his puppets. It is believed that the children have some way to hide their dark presence from Jedi senses, meaning they can exist undetected within the Republic.
- Children of the Emperor (Consular).

Likewise, Vitiate was nearly destroyed when the HoT killed his physical form (his Voice), much like the Emperor’s Wrath before him:


The Emperor was all but destroyed by the Hero of Tython on Dromund Kaas. That's why he needed to be "reborn" by consuming all life on Ziost.

• From (SWTOR content contributor: HALL HOOD)
  
  

Dispatching physical forms associated with Vitiate appears to considerably weaken him, long before the HoT faced him:


“I will give you the Emperor’s coordinates. Even in his weakened state, you are no match for him.”

• Tol Braga, Corellia.
  
  

Whenever someone with Valkorion’s essence or power has been struck down, it has as a result weakened him. The HoT’s actions came as a result of multiple different efforts, from the Barsen’Thor exposing and defeating his children, the EW killing his previous vessel, to the HoT finally dispatching him.


Marr likewise confirms this:


"What will we do when we find him? We still don't know how to destroy him."
"If he has taken on a physical form, we will destroy it. That should at least weaken him significantly"
- The Outlander and Darth Marr, KOTFE chapter 1.

Similarly, Valkorion’s ‘death’ on Zakuul serves as another case of his body being destroyed and weakening him, requiring him to “require new weapons” to restore himself to full strength and take control:


“I would hollow out your mind...but first, I required new weapons to conquer your psyche”

• Valkorion, KOTET.
  
  

When you take into consideration the Sith Inquisitor story line and how absorbing and using the power of too many spirits causing one to essentially go past their body's potential can lead to devastating effects, then Valkorion obviously did some tinkering. The "experiments" line supports this as well I think.

The "experiments" line - if I'm thinking of the same one - was simply a matter of Valk's curiosity as to what the Outlander would do when presented with certain moral dilemmas. 

Unless you believe that the Outlander was already capable of containing all of them from the get-go which obviously isn't the case given Valkorion's "forged into a vessel of supreme power" line.

Two things:

First, considering the indications that spirit Valkorion <<< prime Valkorion, I don't buy that Valk was amped more than he usually would be. For one, the fact that he was seemingly giving it everything he had to take out a pre-prime Arcann (who noted his weakened power - note that Arcann doesn't know how Valk's essence transfer works and how he can be weakened) and completely failed to stop a chained Vaylin (who the Outlander was roughly equal to at this point) indicates that Valk did actually become weaker. There's also this:


"When you helped my son strike me down, I refused to surrender to mortality."

Essentially, Valk was on the brink of death. Through sheer willpower he resisted and invaded the Outlander's body, but as all prior evidence with Vitiate and his bodies suggests, he was weakened considerably. 

Second, as for hosting that power, I don't think it's much of an issue. Spirit Valkorion was >>> pre-training Outlander, yet several times the Outlander could give Valk complete control to use the Force for a few seconds. The reason he burnt out against Arcann was because he was essentially unleashing everything he had in one go, which caused them to pretty much experience cellular burnout. Remember that we've had numerous cases in Legends where Force users have literally burned themselves out by accessing too much power while either A) wounded, B) exhausted, or C) doing so in a very short space of time, e.g. as a singular blast. 

It's also worth noting that by this point Valk didn't really care about Force power as long as he was stronger than anyone else. Even if he couldn't immediately tap into his full power through the Outlander, there's nothing to stop him from advancing that growth later on. However, in the case of KOTFE Valkorion simply didn't have his plan in place and so took a back seat while the Outlander went through new training to unlock their potential.

1. Anakin Skywalker - The Chosen One
2. Luke Skywalker ~ Galen Marek
3. Jacen Solo
4. Darth Sidious ~ the Outlander
5. Vaylin
6. Revan ~ Cade Skywalker ~ Kyp Durron
7. Yoda ~ Arcann
8. Mace Windu
9. Count Dooku
10. Obi Wan Kenobi

@WalkingInCircles

I'll probably respond at some point tonight.

Praxis wrote:@WalkingInCircles

I'll probably respond at some point tonight.

Do you have to? I cba to respond after, lol.

WalkingInCircles wrote:

Praxis wrote:@WalkingInCircles

I'll probably respond at some point tonight.

Do you have to? I cba to respond after, lol.

I've been busy so I apologize lol. Been working on other stuff. I think there is a lot to unpack here but if you don't want to respond that's fine. I'll still post everything I've gathered anyways.

Praxis wrote:

WalkingInCircles wrote:

Praxis wrote:@WalkingInCircles

I'll probably respond at some point tonight.

Do you have to? I cba to respond after, lol.

I've been busy so I apologize lol. Been working on other stuff. I think there is a lot to unpack here but if you don't want to respond that's fine. I'll still post everything I've gathered anyways.

Sounds good, I look forward to reading it. 

dooku literally has a stated yoda lvl potential lol and mace windu> dooku

@WalkingInCircles

Sorry for taking so long to respond, been busy with some stuff but I'm glad we are having this conversation since these ideas have been floating around in my head for a while and now I have the opportunity to explore them a bit. After doing some thinking though, I'm just gonna add to and reframe my thoughts in a more complete fashion instead of just directly responding to what you said since I didn't give much context or thought to my initial position. I should preface this with that a lot of these ideas haven't been tested and aren't fully developed, so keep that in mind.

I. Outlander's Usage of Valkorion's Power
The first time the Outlander uses Valkorion’s power (AOE Force blast against the knights) they are fine [1]. Second time Outlander uses Valk’s power (Force push against Heskal) they are fine [2]. Third time Outlander uses Valk’s power (huge lightning blast hurled at Arcann) they almost die from the sheer power utilized by Valkorion [3]. The only thing keeping the Outlander alive after this ordeal is Valkorion himself as the Outlander mentions. As you stated, Arcann says the Outlander channeling Valkorion's power is weaker than Valkorion in his usual form, either suggesting that Valkorion can’t muster the same power as before, or that the Outlander’s body simply can’t channel that much energy or possibly a mix of both. However, Valkorion's “forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit” quote adds credence to the idea that base Outlander was not capable of properly channeling the full power of Valk during the confrontation with Arcann.

II. Spirit Valkorion and the Physical World
Spirit Valk after absorbing Vaylin's spirit ragdolls the Outlander before Valk performs his mind domination on them [4]. Rarely do we see Valk directly exert his will on the outside world in spirit form. In KOTET Ch.3 he does the “kneel before the dragon of Zakuul” thing to Vaylin [5] as well as when he destroys the holocron in the physical world from the spirit world [6]. Every other time he physically interacts with another person/thing it is with the Outlander who he is tethered to which probably means that he can more easily interact with them as well as exert his will on. As we see in the spirit world battle Valkorion’s spirit is stronger than Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin spirit trio indicating that Valkorion is weaker in the physical world since he doesn't have a body to manifest his powers through.

III. Valkorion's Favor
The idea of Valkorion lying about the amp seems to be in conflict with the source material in my opinion. During the Outlander's fight with Arcann, they receive a buff showing that Valkorion's hand-wave in KOTFE Ch.12 actually did something. You could make the argument that Valkorion was actively buffing them during the fight but by every indication it seems that Valkorion was just observing and letting his mark do the work given the description of the buff in-game. Satele’s comments about Valkorion strengthening the Outlander’s bond to the force seem to be true then given that Valkorion's hand-wave had an observable effect on them. It seems that Valkorion wanted to give the Outlander the extra push to defeat Arcann and see how the Outlander would act upon victory given his comments in KOTET Ch. 9.





Buff in action during cut scene and gameplay:






IV. Training
From the dialogue we see with Satele and Marr, it seems to be clear that while the Outlander has the power required to overcome Arcann after Valkorion's buff, they simply just don't have the training to take on an opponent whose use of the Force is completely foreign to what they are used to and the Satele quote above seems to imply that. Marr's comment seems to as well:



V. Spirit Absorption
Valkorion "dies" and infiltrates the Outlander’s body which knocks the Outlander out long enough to be put in carbonite [7]. Outlander absorbs Arcann’s spirit and is blown back and incapacitiated for what seems to be a little less than a minute or so [8]. Outlander absorbs Vaylin’s spirit which brings them down to their knees but is otherwise fine [9]. The Outlander seems to be getting progressively better at absorbing spirits in a relatively short amount of time since Vaylin's spirit at this point should be far more potent than Arcann's and the absorption of Arcann's spirit did less damage than the absorption of Vaylin's. While you could try and make the argument that this could be due to Valkorion getting better at tethering spirits while inside the Outlander's body, the Outlander still won't struggle with absorbing Vaylin even if they have not absorbed Arcann which seems to indicate that Valkorion doesn't directly have anything to do with how much strain the process imposes.

VI. Outlandish Growth in KOTET
The Outlander’s growth significantly outpaces Vaylin’s incredible unnatural growth after being unchained implying that the Outlander’s growth was highly likely to be unnatural as well, since there are no remarkable events or anything that would cultivate natural growth on such a massive scale. The Outlander goes from getting their ass handed to them by Chained Vaylin to defeating Unchained Vaylin (albeit with some help) then to defeating Arcann and Vaylin in the spirit battle in a span of few months, and this is without any extra training like we see in KOTFE. It's possible that Valk could be advancing the Outlander’s natural growth without enhancing their Force potential, but I’m not aware of that happening anywhere else in the mythos (it’s definitely possible it could have happened somewhere else I’m just not personally aware of anything like that). Given that we have seen others manipulate Force potential (like Plagueis) this seems more likely in the context of the rest of the universe. Valk had to ensure that the Outlander would be able to defeat Vaylin so that his plans could come to fruition, so it makes sense that Valkorion would artificially increase their connection to the force so they could defeat her.

VII. Hollowing Out the Outlander
Valkorion needed the power of Vaylin’s spirit to accomplish his task of taking over the Outlander’s body indicating that the process of hollowing them out required more than the combined strength of Arcann and Valkorion's spirit. Given that Valkorion's spirit is stronger than the combined spirits of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander this implies that the hollowing out process requires power far beyond that of the host. Valkorion was going to remove the Outlander's spirit and replace it with his + Vaylin’s + Arcann’s which collectively is far more powerful than the Outlander's spirit. To harness this collective power, Valkorion would have to perform some type of alteration to the body of the Outlander since we know that Valkorion's spirit alone was too potent for the Outlander to fully channel in KOTFE Ch. 8 without burning out.

VIII. Tying it All Together
The Outlander's body in its KOTFE Ch. 12 state isn't capable of handling the full potency of Valkorion's power. Valkorion strengthens the Outlander's bond to the Force which they then take advantage of during their training with Marr and Satele. Over the course of the story, the Outlander absorbs spirits which can be used as a metric for their growth, especially in regards to KOTET with being incapacitated after absorbing Arcann's spirit to being relatively unfazed after absorbing Unchained Vaylin's spirit. Alongside this, we have the Outlander going from significantly below Chained Vaylin to being above Unchained Vaylin without any sort of additional training or "buddha" moments. Given that the majority of Vaylin's power is unlocked after becoming unchained, it seems highly unlikely that the Outlander would have been able to outpace this growth through normal means. Since we know that Valkorion strengthened their bond during KOTFE, it wouldn't be unprecedented for him to continue doing so over the course of KOTET in preparation for the endgame. Finally, Valkorion's attempt to remove the Outlander's spirit from their body and replace it with the combined power of his spirit and his children's leaves the Outlander with a body capable of harnessing their combined power in the physical world, therefore elevating their potential to unprecedented heights.

"You were an exemplary pawn--one I forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit. Now I take your body as my own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor."

Will reply later if I can be bothered. Got a lot of formatives to do for uni.

@Praxis To support your thesis:



If the Outlander is non-Force-sensitive, Valkorion literally turns them Force-sensitive. If that isn't evidence of him unnaturally augmenting the Outlander's potential, I don't know what is.

Azronger wrote:@Praxis To support your thesis:



If the Outlander is non-Force-sensitive, Valkorion literally turns them Force-sensitive. If that isn't evidence of him unnaturally augmenting the Outlander's potential, I don't know what is.

Totally forgot to include this. Thanks