Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 16th 2019, 3:32 pm

Gotta admit, I'm impressed by Meetra. I can't think of many Force users who could beat an old blind woman with one hand who was trying to fight a skilled combatant by wielding three lightsabers through telekinesis despite no notable lightsaber mastery. What an amazing feat.

September 16th 2019, 3:58 pm

BreakOfDawn wrote:Gotta admit, I'm impressed by Meetra. I can't think of many Force users who could beat an old blind woman with one hand who was trying to fight a skilled combatant by wielding three lightsabers through telekinesis despite no notable lightsaber mastery. What an amazing feat.

Although I like your irony, the feat is unquestionably impressive. First of all, blindness is hardly an issue for Traya, as she compensated quite well with the force:

There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only. There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they have simply atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction. When one relies on sight to perceive the world, it is like trying to stare at the galaxy through a crack in the door."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

I also question Traya’s lack of lightsaber mastery:

Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Meaning Traya is above all sith of the triumvirate in lightsaber combat.

And she was said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Furthermore she is noted as a master of the technique of Kinetic combat ( the technique of wielding lightsabers with the force), which she used against Meetra in their duel and that you label as possessing “no notable mastery”:

Darth Traya, Master of Kinetic Combat"
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Seeing this I severely question the idea of Meetra facing a weak opponent, even in the realm of lightsaber combat.

September 16th 2019, 4:51 pm

Vader, decisively. Meetra is outmatched across the board.

Defeating Traya isn't better than what Vader brings to the table.

September 16th 2019, 5:22 pm

@MasterCilghal Let me have my sarcastic posts. I don't get to do them much anymore. Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 2 1648373583

September 16th 2019, 5:39 pm

Cilghal ragdolling

September 16th 2019, 6:31 pm

So, Traya's best lightsaber feats/accolades with a blade, is generic "highly skilled" one that is a dime a dozen? And being above other, not-so-well documented Sith in the Triumvirate?

September 16th 2019, 6:39 pm

Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part? Nick Rostu’s words don’t hold much weight when, per G-Canon, Vader’s vastly inferior to the shadow of his former self Ben Kenobi.

Meetra is less garbage than this.

September 16th 2019, 6:56 pm

Given that their fight is in the Trayus Core, where Malachor’s nexus is at it’s peak, Meetra winning is rather impressive. Traya ragdolling 20 Sith Assassins at once is also impressive, given that they are specifically trained to defeat force users.

Also, Meetra >>> Tired Malachor Meetra > Trayus Corr Traya >>> Traya >>>> the three masters, who are individually > Dark Bastila, who is at the tier of KOTOR Revan, and therefore, likely > Kun.

September 16th 2019, 6:59 pm

IdrisianGraecus wrote:

Also, Meetra >>> Tired Malachor Meetra > Trayus Corr Traya >>> Traya >>>> the three masters, who are individually > Dark Bastila, who is at the tier of KOTOR Revan, and therefore, likely > Kun.

So you're saying Meetra is >>KotOR Revan??

September 16th 2019, 7:07 pm

@IdrisianGraecus

Given that their fight is in the Trayus Core, where Malachor’s nexus is at it’s peak, Meetra winning is rather impressive. Traya ragdolling 20 Sith Assassins at once is also impressive, given that they are specifically trained to defeat force users.

Also, Meetra >>> Tired Malachor Meetra > Trayus Corr Traya >>> Traya >>>> the three masters, who are individually > Dark Bastila, who is at the tier of KOTOR Revan, and therefore, likely > Kun.

So Revan jumped up like 3 ragdoll tiers from KOTOR to the Novel? That doesn't seem very plausible. Also, I'm not seeing how Bastilla is ~ KOTOR Revan when he fought through the Star Forge before fighting her yet still won, and had enough energy to beat Malak many consecutive times afterward.

September 16th 2019, 7:31 pm

Frankly, I use tier lightly. In this scenario, I’m not using a Gillard-esque system, so much as I’m using KOTOR Revan’s tier to be > Kun. We know that prime Traya is likely << Revan, but Bastila gave him a good fight, but given that it was on the SF, we can assume thaT she’s normally far weaker.

I’m rambling, the point I’m trying to make is that SF Bastila is likely > Kun, and that due to the nexus, she’s around the tier of KOTOR Revan. Which is like saying that IH Kenobi is in the tier of Dooku, he is, but he’s easily stompable.

In my opinion, KOTOR Revan > Meetra > Malachor Meetra > Traya, etc, etc, etc.

September 16th 2019, 8:58 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:If i’m Being honest, the exile’s ability to defeat Traya empowered by the Trayus academy despite being less powerful impresses me more. I’ll see the arguments before coming to a decision.

Why is that exactly, when Traya hardly measures up against Vader in power, and especially not in skill?

September 17th 2019, 2:59 am

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Frankly, I use tier lightly. In this scenario, I’m not using a Gillard-esque system, so much as I’m using KOTOR Revan’s tier to be > Kun. We know that prime Traya is likely << Revan, but Bastila gave him a good fight, but given that it was on the SF, we can assume thaT she’s normally far weaker.

I’m rambling, the point I’m trying to make is that SF Bastila is likely > Kun, and that due to the nexus, she’s around the tier of KOTOR Revan. Which is like saying that IH Kenobi is in the tier of Dooku, he is, but he’s easily stompable.

In my opinion, KOTOR Revan > Meetra > Malachor Meetra > Traya, etc, etc, etc.

Proof Bastilla gave him a hard fight?

September 17th 2019, 3:03 am

Meetra, of course.

September 17th 2019, 3:05 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Vader stomps.

September 17th 2019, 3:30 am

Can someone explain how Meetra is going to beat Vader?

Is it in a duel? I don't really find that likely. Meetra was arguably the best duelist in KOTOR II, but nobody in that game really seemed to be a serious heavyweight as a duelist. Say what you will about Vader, but at the bare minimum his force augmented speed even as of 18BBY is nothing to scoff at if quotes from the Ferus novel thing are anything to go by, suggesting Vader is faster than anyone else Ferus has ever seen save for Yoda.

Will she best him with aggressive offensive use of the Force? Could someone explain that one to me? We know for a fact Meetra can defend herself against the offensive Force power of someone like Traya, but what offensive might of her own can she muster? I'm not inclined to believe the evidence for Meetra's offensive capacity with the Force is sufficient enough to suggest she overcomes someone who was contending with Galen (pre-shedding his limitations, and yet not at a loss for some rather impressive Force feats of his own.

I just don't really see Meetra having anything that'll take Vader down, while at the bare minimum I could see Vader besting her in a lightsaber duel.

September 17th 2019, 6:57 am

Bastila giving Revan a good fight was likely given how Bastila was literally the highest level NPC in the game, including Malak. Also, she was TKing two massive doors at once while fighting Revan, so there’s also that.

I’m just assuming, it’s unlikely Revan just plain out shitstomps her.

September 17th 2019, 7:39 am

Deronn_Solo wrote:So, Traya's best lightsaber feats/accolades with a blade, is generic "highly skilled" one that is a dime a dozen? And being above other, not-so-well documented Sith in the Triumvirate?

Well, more can be said about her. But that was not my point anyway, I was simply refuting the notion of Traya lacking in skill, which is factually incorrect.

September 17th 2019, 11:10 am

I know what your point was. I was just asking does she have more to her name than the aforesaid accolades.

Given how the said feat [besting Traya] seems to be Meetra's claim to fame, it's rather important to the thread at hand.

I know Ant did a number on Vader's in rep in large with indegious statements - which, honestly, is subject to scrutiny, especially given the EU writers misinterpreted the character George intended Vader to be. But, I didn't think he'd fall this far to sub-Meetra, who is quite frankly, floating somewhere around Plo Koon and Fisto's level.

September 17th 2019, 11:21 am

Jake wrote:Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part? Nick Rostu’s words don’t hold much weight when, per G-Canon, Vader’s vastly inferior to the shadow of his former self Ben Kenobi.

Meetra is less garbage than this.

Ugh

September 17th 2019, 11:25 am

Vader lowball here is ridicilious tbh. Hopefully I'll change this in time.

September 17th 2019, 11:30 am

Meetra stomps.

September 17th 2019, 11:40 am

@Jake

Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part?

Care to provide scans/quotes for the feat you're referring to? I'm not familiar with the showing.

Nick Rostu’s words don’t hold much weight when, per G-Canon, Vader’s vastly inferior to the shadow of his former self Ben Kenobi.

Lucas was explicitly talking about Vader being inferior in Force Power to Kenobi meaning the quote doesn't prove ROTS Kenobi>>ANH Kenobi>>Vader, as we know ANH Kenobi is just as powerful as his ROTS counterpart per quotes. Kenobi being described as a shadow of his former self can easily refer to him being overall weaker in an actual fight (not exclusively Force Power) which he was (per quotes he was out of practice and much physically weaker). Basically, encompassing all aspects of combat this tells us ROTS Kenobi>>ANH Kenobi~Vader (Kenobi and Vader stalemated in all-out combat so Kenobi obviously isn't vastly superior). Great... it does nothing to damage a Force based comparison (and Nick's claim is specifically related to Vader's Force Power, not overall combat ability).

My final note is that we have no idea as to the gaps between level 6 and level 4 are, meaning that the quote doesn't put Vader vastly below Kenobi as you claim. Overall, I'd say a more realistic picture is something like this:

In Force Power: ROTS Kenobi=ANH Kenobi>Vader.

In Duelling: ROTS Kenobi>>ANH Kenobi=Vader.

Overall: ROTS Kenobi>>ANH Kenobi=Vader.

Meetra is less garbage than this.

That's some suspect insight.

September 17th 2019, 11:41 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Vader lowball here is ridicilious tbh. Hopefully I'll change this in time.

Its beyond a joke. And what's hilarious is that most of the haters were people who repped for Vader at one point.
Bandwagoners

September 17th 2019, 11:46 am

I suppose my Vader "lowballing" is now looking quite tame, isn't it? And yes, the lowballing is utterly ridiculous.