Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

When confronted with two possible interpretations of a source, the author's intent can elucidate which interpretation is more correct. 

I'm pretty sure Meetra only entered the fight after Revan had been overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning, meaning she hadn't seen most of the fight. And Vitiate had zero skill with a lightsaber. Vitiate getting the lightsaber knocked out of his hands while he clumsily attempted to execute Revan is hardly a showing of comparability. The fact that Revan believes they can overcome Vitiate together does not preclude the idea of her being far below Revan. Revan could be very close to Vitiate with Scourge and Meetra serving to put them over the edge.

DarthJacenSoloFan77 wrote:
The text stating "SK's determination met Vader's rage" could indicate that SK blocked Vader's TK attack, as opposed to the TIE Fighter's acceleration overpowering it.

No...

No it wasn't. 


Starkiller increased the thrust.  His determination met Darth Vader's rage, and for an instant he was unsure which would win.


- TFUII

Starkiller's determination = increasing the TIE fighter's thrust despite Vaders force-grip. 

Ant never debunked all of Vader's best feats

Yes. 

Yed he did. 

Before people argued that Vader survived Palpatine's full-powered lightning and instead died to a ripple of dark energy in the latters death.  However, there are quotes claiming it was the lightning that actually killed him, no reason to believe Sidious' unleashed his full potency... and Vader of course,  was filled with new resolve - charging up power in those moments beforehand.  All details Ant recovered with his research.  

Secondly, there were parity - in some cases superiority - lines drawn with Starkiller II because of their fight.... where Starkiller was exhausted to the point of death prior and emotionally unbalanced - not anywhere close to his full power.  

Now the staple Vader diet is along the lines of ... uh Vader most beh strong.. Nick Rostu said so. 

Ziggy wrote:where Starkiller was exhausted to the point of death prior and emotionally unbalanced

No offense, but did you actually read the fight yourself? You're welcome to make the case here instead of appealing to Ant's research, because I don't think you're capturing all the ideas in your summary.

BTW, what about TFUI? Galen at the beginning of the game struggled with Kota, who Vader ragdolled - indeed, most reasonable onlookers would not see Galen as more powerful than TFUI Vader until very close to or even at the final battle. How do you deny that scaling above oneshotting thousands of droids with TK and powering up corvettes with lightning?

Also, in what comic did whathisface pull the drop ship down, in?

The Ellimist wrote:

Ziggy wrote:where Starkiller was exhausted to the point of death prior and emotionally unbalanced

No offense, but did you actually read the fight yourself? You're welcome to make the case here instead of appealing to Ant's research, because I don't think you're capturing all the ideas in your summary.

I read it.  For a lot of the fight SK was being hindered by Force visions and not fully giving into dark emotions + was more exhausted than ever.  

I just don't find Vader losing to Starkiller II while the latter is near the brink of death very impressive. 

I'm Soz. 

BTW, what about TFUI? Galen at the beginning of the game struggled with Kota, who Vader ragdolled - indeed, most reasonable onlookers would not see Galen as more powerful than TFUI Vader until very close to or even at the final battle. How do you deny that scaling above oneshotting thousands of droids with TK and powering up corvettes with lightning?

He force choked the rehabilitated Kota, who'd been drinking away his Force connection in a Bespin Cantina - I can't reliably judge this version of him.  Kota was portrayed as being below middling Council masters anyway, such as Shaak Ti.  To the contrary I think most non Vader fans read the book and realise the truth : the scaling is buke.  Galan always had it in him to beat the masked man - he just needed to believe in himself... and it happened.  As cheesy as this sounds, it's palpable with how the Force works. 

How can Vader's feat scaling be impressive when he himself couldn't stop his capped at 1200 KPH (in atmosphere) Tie Fighter from leaving Kamino.  That's where Vader ends.  His limits defined.  He isn't shit to any version of Galen with his full strength and a serious attitude.  


.... Padawan Anakin on the other hand :

Spoiler:

Deronn_Solo wrote:Also, in what comic did whathisface pull the drop ship down, in?

Don't know, it's in the K'kruhk respect thread.

The author confirmed he didn’t pull it down. He just manipulated the controls.

Even if that's true concerning K'kruhks feat, there's still Padawan Anie pulling down a drop ship in the example above.

Yeah, the comic itself made it clear he was manipulating the controls when the pilot commented on it going wonky.

KingofBlades wrote:When confronted with two possible interpretations of a source, the author's intent can elucidate which interpretation is more correct. 

I'm pretty sure Meetra only entered the fight after Revan had been overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning, meaning she hadn't seen most of the fight. And Vitiate had zero skill with a lightsaber. Vitiate getting the lightsaber knocked out of his hands while he clumsily attempted to execute Revan is hardly a showing of comparability. The fact that Revan believes they can overcome Vitiate together does not preclude the idea of her being far below Revan. Revan could be very close to Vitiate with Scourge and Meetra serving to put them over the edge.

She was literally running at him as he moved to execute Revan. Vitiate having zero skill with a lightsaber is not only false but is absolutely not a counter here. He had his lightsaber gripped fully and was swinging to kill Revan. Her throw was fast enough and strong enough to intercept and disarm him.

You've not even provided a real premise for Revan being 'far' above her.

@SithSauce What's funny is that he calls him "garbage", yet a pre prime Vader is confirmed to be more powerful than Asajj Ventress a character who he wanks to death.
He is a tool, just ignore him lol

Lmao this was debunked. How did this even stay up?

@Greysentinel365 Quote? Because this seems to imply the ship was forcefully plucked from the sky;



Star Wars: Dark Times - Fire Carrier 3 Summary

This isn't exactly the same as "The Force may be powerful enough to slightly tilt a ship's steering wheel." K'Kruhk's hand motions and the strain with which he accomplishes the feat also make it look more like a dragging down of a large object than a subtle manipulation of ship controls. 

The controls moving down are just a result of K’Kruhk bringing the ship into a nose dive.

@Jake: He could have been using Eletronic Manipulation to "hack" the controls. As shown in JA Trilogy, such a feat requires a surprisingly good amount of power seeing as how Kyp needed to draw on Exar's power to pull the showing off.


Later sources also referred to Kyp as pulling the ship out of the Gas Giant, despite him only manipulating the controls. While still an great showings, it doesn't exactly scale to telekinesis.

Jake wrote:

@SithSauce What's funny is that he calls him "garbage", yet a pre prime Vader is confirmed to be more powerful than Asajj Ventress a character who he wanks to death.
He is a tool, just ignore him lol

Lmao this was debunked. How did this even stay up?

Debunked how?

@SithSauce It wasn't. On top of that, a Vader barely into his suit already has better power showings than Ventress, lol.

I love how whenever people try to wank early suit Vader by giving Kar Vastor, etc feats, they also forget that he was ragdolled by Muur.

@Deronn_Solo That’s a fair example, but I also don’t think it’s the most straight forward explanation. When the author writes ‘he pulled it out of the sky’, it’s a great stretch to argue that was actually the character using a technique never mentioned once in the series, not alluded to before, during or after events and not in any secondary sources on the feat, to merely fiddle with some controls. 

Everything shown in the comic paints a perfect picture of a Jedi simply yanking a ship to the ground. I think authorial intent can be used in an instance such as this, to determine which explanation is most likely, and that would be mine. 

A) The author says K’Kruhk pulled the ship out of the sky and the comic illustrates this. The controls moving have been reasonably explained as a byproduct of the ship being forced toward the ground. 

B) We have one instance in the mythos of electronic manipulation being called a ‘pulling’. The electronic manipulation was mentioned in sources on the Kyp feat, but noticeably absent in this instance, and something the writer (to my knowledge) doesn’t include as a possibility. 

It’s dangerous to assume the ship pulling is under the same circumstances as Kyp’s, there needs to be evidence for this. What I’m saying certainly isn’t set in stone, and another author quote could change this, but to preemptively cut a long debate short and save the deadlock, I think it’s relatively safe to say that the intent behind the K’Kruhk feat was clear; he did legitimately rip this ship out of the sky. Simplest explanation with the most backing.

@SithSauce The gist of the argument is (here)

If you give me some time I’ll post a larger one in this thread. Basically, multiple sources on TCW Ventress contradict every prerequisite for the Vader quote, it fitting more in line with her OCW characterisation. Many sources contradicting each and every part of the Vehicles & Starships quote >> the Vehicles & Starships quote.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I love how whenever people try to wank early suit Vader by giving Kar Vastor, etc feats, they also forget that he was ragdolled by Muur.

Except he wasn't. 

Yes he was, he beat Morne, but Muur straight up ragdolled him.

Jake wrote:@Greysentinel365 Quote? Because this seems to imply the ship was forcefully plucked from the sky;



Star Wars: Dark Times - Fire Carrier 3 Summary

This isn't exactly the same as "The Force may be powerful enough to slightly tilt a ship's steering wheel." K'Kruhk's hand motions and the strain with which he accomplishes the feat also make it look more like a dragging down of a large object than a subtle manipulation of ship controls. 

The controls moving down are just a result of K’Kruhk bringing the ship into a nose dive.

Nice Jake.

If K'kruhk's feat stands, Vader is garbage in feats-wars^tm against PT masters given the scope of their ability... and his inability.

Just give it up Ziggy, no need for all this hate on a character

Vader is weak though.

Can you explain why he is weak Graecus? Without scalings, only reasons.

HellfireUnit wrote:Can you explain why he is weak Graecus? Without scalings, only reasons.

Why is scaling not a legitimate reason?