Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

@Hellfireunit: And, on a different note, certainly consider joining the Revan Brigade. 

Unlike the Vader Brigade's years of failure and decline, we're at the height of our power and actually rep a powerful character. 

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Hellfireunit: And, on a different note, certainly consider joining the Revan Brigade. 

Unlike the Vader Brigade's years of failure and decline, we're at the height of our power and actually repping a powerful character. 

I may not show it much but I hold him quite above. He is the most powerful character during TOR from my POV. I believe Revan > Valkorion and would even debate it.

Tbf, at least Vader doesn't look like he raided a charity store for clothes.

I believe Revan > Valkorion and would even debate it.

...

Be right back, removing HU from my post on up and coming debaters.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:@DarthAnt66 thanks for the clarifications mate, though still many things remain unclear in the background. Unfortunately we will never receive a novel or comic that summarized the events of Star Forge. From what you say, Revan is above Malak but gap shouldn't be too much it appears.

@Hellfireunit: No problem. Though, what do you think is unclear, and why do you think the gap isn't too much? Remember that while Revan fought through multiple armies, Bastila, and the Infinite Army, Malak relaxed as the Star Forge siphoned extreme power into him. Yet Revan still defeated Malak multiple times in a row.

Yup, these are a testimony of Revan's strength. I just find many of the details lacking in Star Forge as a whole. In game it is limited for us to have 2 companions but it wouldn't have been that way in the actual continuity. How did other characters served Revan during this battle, how much effort and support they put, etc. These stuff remained unanswered unfortunately.

BreakofDawn wrote:Tbf, at least Vader doesn't look like he raided a charity store for clothes.

The SWTOR engine unfortunately has its limitations (though far less than Vader has), but the official art makes the greatness quite evident:

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:@DarthAnt66 thanks for the clarifications mate, though still many things remain unclear in the background. Unfortunately we will never receive a novel or comic that summarized the events of Star Forge. From what you say, Revan is above Malak but gap shouldn't be too much it appears.

@Hellfireunit: No problem. Though, what do you think is unclear, and why do you think the gap isn't too much? Remember that while Revan fought through multiple armies, Bastila, and the Infinite Army, Malak relaxed as the Star Forge siphoned extreme power into him. Yet Revan still defeated Malak multiple times in a row.

Yup, these are a testimony of Revan's strength. I just find many of the details lacking in Star Forge as a whole. In game it is limited for us to have 2 companions but it wouldn't have been that way in the actual continuity. How did other characters served Revan during this battle, how much effort and support they put, etc. These stuff remained unanswered unfortunately.

The more companions that helped him initially, the more impressive it is for Revan, given Bastila one-shotted all of his companions and Malak thought Revan could easily solo those armies anyway.

I will just add a small thing about Revan and Vitiate comparison. Scourge saw Revan had chance of defeating Vitiate as 50/50. Even in that weakened state of his and Tenebrae was on a Dark Side nexus as you guys said. Despite his state, Revan managed to hurt him and maybe even kill him if not for Scourge's betrayal. Fast forward to 3 centuries later, Revan continuously gathered information from Vitiate and grew in power. Vitiate remained the same as far as I can tell. I don't see him beating Revan after his release.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Tbf, at least Vader doesn't look like he raided a charity store for clothes.

The SWTOR engine unfortunately has its limitations (though far less than Vader has), but the official art makes the greatness quite evident:

Now he just looks like an anime guy who raided a charity shop and has severe red eye.

@HellfireUnit 

I will just add a small thing about Revan and Vitiate comparison. Scourge saw Revan had chance of defeating Vitiate as 50/50.

Not true. He saw some futures where Revan won, not "half" of them, and we have no idea how those went down. It's fairly likely it was with Meetra and Scourge's help per Revan's own words:

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor? Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

Not to mention the most likely future Scourge saw was of them losing, even when working together:

Revan lay motionless on the floor of the Citadel’s throne room. Meetra and Scourge lay beside him, their bodies twisted and broken, clinging to the last moments of life.The Emperor approached the trio, regarding them with a cold and casual contempt as he loomed above his fallen adversaries. Scourge tried to stand and flee, but his crippled limbs wouldn’t support his weight. All he could do was crawl on his belly like a worm. His efforts drew the attention of the Emperor, who didn’t speak but came over and lowered himself to one knee. He grabbed Scourge by the shoulder and rolled him over so he was staring up into the twin voids of the Emperor’s eyes. As he reached out a hand and placed it on Scourge’s forehead, the Sith began to scream.

Even in that weakened state of his

Arguable. After six months the torture had stopped, and Revan had time to recover between each. According to the text, him and Revan had talks over the next three years, and Revan wasn't tortured after the six months because Nyriss lost any interest she had in him:

After six months Nyriss had lost interest in her Jedi prisoner. Her attention moved on to other plots and intrigues, though she kept him alive just in case. But while Nyriss ignored Revan, Scourge had become obsessed with him.

The guards were forbidden to speak with him, and once Nyriss all but forgot about him, the weekly visits from Scourge were his only source of conversation or contact.





To facilitate the process, Revan had carefully forged a relationship with the anonymous Sith, establishing a familiar rapport that made it easier for the Sith to unknowingly open up about himself even as he thought he was using Revan. His efforts had been well rewarded. Over the past three years he had learned much about the Sith society the Republic believed to be extinct. He knew they were ruled by an Emperor; he knew they controlled hundreds of worlds. About a year earlier, he had learned the name of the female who had overseen the first few interrogations.

No indication he was injured past that point, only drugged.

and Tenebrae was on a Dark Side nexus as you guys said

With limited time to gather himself due to being taken by surprise whereas Revan had spent the day beforehand preparing and also benefiting from the nexus. 

Despite his state, Revan managed to hurt him and maybe even kill him if not for Scourge's betrayal.

Again, the visions were unpredictable and vague. There's little to no indication that he could have taken novel Vitiate solo. The moment Vitiate unleashed his full power, Revan went down hard.

Fast forward to 3 centuries later, Revan continuously gathered information from Vitiate and grew in power. Vitiate remained the same as far as I can tell. I don't see him beating Revan after his release.

Revan wasn't particularly close to Vitiate even as of the novel, and Vitiate had time to gather knowledge and grow in power just like Revan. 

Ziggy wrote:

Deronn_Solo wrote:

Ziggy wrote:You've clearly been sucking on his mantle.

nah.

 obi-wan took it away.

.... no he didn't. 

The legs were cut off, not his whole lower half, you're thinking of Maul.

I mean, it's so burnt and shriveled, it might as well have been chopped off.

@BreakofDawn 

1. Scourge notes that he wasn't sure which outcome was more likely. This implies that the number of scenarios he saw with Vitiate dead was roughly equal with the scenarios of Vitiate's triumph. Meetra and Scourge are fodder to Revan and Vitiate, so any scenario with Vitiate dead would be a result of Revan carrying most of the load.

2. Revan opinion of his own power relative to Vitiate was a case of pure speculation. He had no idea how powerful the Emperor truly was. It certainly doesn't override Scourge's visions of the future.

3. The days spent preparing could have been a case of getting back in tune with the force fully after having his connection with it blocked for years.  More importantly there is nothing that even hints Revan was abnormally amped due to his preparations. Your argument that Vitiate had a limited time to prepare doesn't make much sense. Since when has it been the case that a force user needs long periods of preparation to bring their full power to bear. If thats the case we better re examine the Windu vs Sidious fight or the Yoda vs Sidious fight since in both cases Sidious had no time to prepare.

4. The reason Vitiate managed to overwhelm Revan with his final lightning barrage was due to the fact that he had started gathering energy before Revan. As seen with Nyriss even a few moments of gathering energy uninterrupted leads to drastic increases in power. So Vitiate having even a few more seconds of gathering energy uninterrupted could prove enough to tip the scale. This fits with what actually happened since Revan managed to contain nearly the entirety of Vitiates lightning barrage. Had Revan started gathering energy at the same time as Vitiate there's a good chance he would have been able to contain it and redirect the energy, likely resulting in Vitiate's death. Note that Revan would have been at his standard level of power since he was being simultaneously amped and hindered, while Vitiate was only being amped. So if the fight was on neutral ground it would be even more likely that Revan would have been able to redirect the energy.

1. Scourge notes that he wasn't sure which outcome was more likely. This implies that the number of scenarios he saw with Vitiate dead was roughly equal with the scenarios of Vitiate's triumph.

Immediately after he then has a vision of the Outlander destroying Valkorion, heavily implying that Revan, Meetra and himself would have failed to kill Vitiate as it was not his time:

mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form. He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.


In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi . . . but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.

The moment is even described as being a moment of clarity, as though it is the most prominent vision that stands out to Scourge, and thus is the most likely outcome. 

Meetra and Scourge are fodder to Revan and Vitiate, so any scenario with Vitiate dead would be a result of Revan carrying most of the load.

And Arcann is fodder to Vaylin or Valkorion, yet he still proved helpful in the final battle. It doesn't matter who contributes the most as none of them were able to overpower Vitiate individually yet collectively are more powerful. 

2. Revan opinion of his own power relative to Vitiate was a case of pure speculation. He had no idea how powerful the Emperor truly was.

[size]

Absolutely not true:[/size]

As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy. In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle.

Revan already knew full well how powerful novel Vitiate was. And again, during the battle's interlude:

“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

It certainly doesn't override Scourge's visions of the future.

It certainly suggests that it would take all three of them to best Vitiate. We've already seen how Revan did against Vitiate's full power, you really want to argue that he could have overpowered Vitiate despite having his defences ripped to shreds by the Emperor's power? 

3. The days spent preparing could have been a case of getting back in tune with the force fully after having his connection with it blocked for years.

[size]

It wasn't blocked, only dulled. Scourge then injected him with a serum that helped to clear the power of the drugs to the point where he could one-shot Nyriss:[/size]

But he wasn’t strong enough to keep it up any longer, and now his body was responding with an acute over-reaction. Scourge stepped over to a medkit on the wall and yanked it open. He grabbed a hypodermic filled with a green luminescent fluid. “This will help,” he said, injecting it into Revan’s arm. “But it will take a few minutes.”

 

More importantly there is nothing that even hints Revan was abnormally amped due to his preparations. Your argument that Vitiate had a limited time to prepare doesn't make much sense.

We know from the HoT's conversation with Scourge that the Emperor grows more powerful the more time he has to prepare. Here, he had little to no time to gather his entire power due to them ambushing him. Revan, by contrast, had an entire day to gather his full power. 

Since when has it been the case that a force user needs long periods of preparation to bring their full power to bear. If thats the case we better re examine the Windu vs Sidious fight or the Yoda vs Sidious fight since in both cases Sidious had no time to prepare.

Vitiate is quite clearly different:

He’d feared they’d have to fight through dozens of the Guard before reaching the throne room, giving the Emperor ample time to prepare his counterattack. Now, however, they had a chance to take their adversary by surprise.

Vitiate gathers his power in advance before unleashing it per numerous quotes. Don't ask me to explain it because I don't understand the discrepancy myself but it's not the same situation as Sidious. 

4. The reason Vitiate managed to overwhelm Revan with his final lightning barrage was due to the fact that he had started gathering energy before Revan. As seen with Nyriss even a few moments of gathering energy uninterrupted leads to drastic increases in power. So Vitiate having even a few more seconds of gathering energy uninterrupted could prove enough to tip the scale.

And Revan does something pretty similar by letting his power explode out of him, where all it does to an unprepared Vitiate is throw him backwards and hurt him a bit: 

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

He gathers his power by drawing upon the light and dark, and then releases it in a devastating blast that even knocks himself backwards. 

This fits with what actually happened since Revan managed to contain nearly the entirety of Vitiates lightning barrage.

When? Even a quick bolts from Vitiate are avoided if possible:

He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy. Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks. The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.

Had Revan started gathering energy at the same time as Vitiate there's a good chance he would have been able to contain it and redirect the energy, likely resulting in Vitiate's death.

Absolutely no evidence for this beyond speculation. Vitiate had to unleash a chained blast to stomp Revan - not even indicative of his full power - and there is zero indication on Revan's behalf that he could ever have contained his full power:

Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack. A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Note that Revan would have been at his standard level of power since he was being simultaneously amped and hindered,

Hindered by what, exactly?

while Vitiate was only being amped. So if the fight was on neutral ground it would be even more likely that Revan would have been able to redirect the energy.

Vitiate also had a limited time to prepare himself (a few seconds, maybe a few minutes) before the fight started whereas Revan had all day to channel his powers and prepare himself mentally and physically for the fight ahead. 

Will respond tomorrow.

No worries. I was about to say that as well, lol.

Vader brigade will live again, and I will raise it out of the grave

Invite MyGod & you’ll have more than a brigade.

Yeah, invite him and you won't need one. You'll have an unparalleled debater with infinite stamina to solo the forum. A literal God so to speak.

MyGod isn't even a Vader fan tbh. He uses Vader to wank Starkiller and just makes it harder for anyone who can type a coherent sentence to defend Vader.

--

BreakofDawn wrote:MyGod isn't even a Vader fan tbh. He uses Vader to wank Starkiller and just makes it harder for anyone who can type a coherent sentence to defend Vader.

Except he's argued Vader is superior to Starkiller before.

Immediately after he then has a vision of the Outlander destroying Valkorion, heavily implying that Revan, Meetra and himself would have failed to kill Vitiate as it was not his time:

[size=31]mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form. He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.


[size=31]In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi . . . but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.[/size][/size]

The moment is even described as being a moment of clarity, as though it is the most prominent vision that stands out to Scourge, and thus is the most likely outcome. 

All this shows is that the chances of the Outlander defeating Valk via resisting essence transfer was greater than that of Revan defeating Vitiate in the novel. This doesn't disprove my original argument which was that the odds of Revan being victorious vs Vitiate winning was roughly even according to Scourge's visions. It's entirely plausible that the chance of the Outllander's triumph occurring was greater than ~50%.

And Arcann is fodder to Vaylin or Valkorion, yet he still proved helpful in the final battle. It doesn't matter who contributes the most as none of them were able to overpower Vitiate individually yet collectively are more powerful. 

Arcann proving helpful doesn't preclude the idea of the Outlander carrying most of the load in resisting and defeating Valkorion. It is known that the party resisting the essence transfer technique has an enormous advantage over the invader. So the Outlander being the defending party could have equalized the power gap between Valk and the Outlander to the point that Arcann was enough to put them over the edge. The same logic can be applied to the novel fight. Revan could be nearly equal with Vitiate, close enough that relative fodder like Meetra and Scourge puts them over the edge.

[size=33]Absolutely not true:[/size][/size]

[size=24]As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy. In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle.[/size]

[size=33]Revan already knew full well how powerful novel Vitiate was. And again, during the battle's interlude:[/size]

“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

There's a few things wrong with taking Revan's words at face value. Considering Revan was fodder at the time of this engagement, it is unlikely Vitiate revealed his true power. Revan is more than smart enough to realize this. Revan's statement is likely an attempt at approximating what Vitiate's full power would be based on what he has already shown. Even if Revan did have an accurate estimation of Vitiate's true power it is still unlikely Revan knows for certain how he stacks up against Vitiate. The strongest opponent he has faced at that point was SF Malak so he has no bench mark to use in comparing his power to someone of Vitiate's level. So we cannot use pre battle speculations/predictions to overrule the actual fight. Now Revan's statement during the battle's interlude does not contradict my argument. We both agree that the combined power of the team was likely stronger than Vitiate but I'm arguing that Revan was nearly powerful enough to take Vitiate solo with Meetra and Scourge serving as the "cherry on top" so to speak.

[size=33]It wasn't blocked, only dulled. Scourge then injected him with a serum that helped to clear the power of the drugs to the point where he could one-shot Nyriss:[/size][/size]

[size=24]But he wasn’t strong enough to keep it up any longer, and now his body was responding with an acute over-reaction. Scourge stepped over to a medkit on the wall and yanked it open. He grabbed a hypodermic filled with a green luminescent fluid. “This will help,” he said, injecting it into Revan’s arm. “But it will take a few minutes.”[/size]

This still doesn't prove Revan had fully recuperated. For all we know possessing the power to onshot Nyriss is only him at 50% power. There isn't enough information to make a solid conclusion. Though it should be noted that Scourge only stated that the medicine would "help" not cure. Implying that it would take longer for Revan to be fully recovered.  

We know from the HoT's conversation with Scourge that the Emperor grows more powerful the more time he has to prepare. Here, he had little to no time to gather his entire power due to them ambushing him. Revan, by contrast, had an entire day to gather his full power. 

[size=24]He’d feared they’d have to fight through dozens of the Guard before reaching the throne room, giving the Emperor ample time to prepare his counterattack. Now, however, they had a chance to take their adversary by surprise.[/size]

[size=33]Vitiate gathers his power in advance before unleashing it per numerous quotes. Don't ask me to explain it because I don't understand the discrepancy myself but it's not the same situation as Sidious. [/size]

Quote for the HoT conversation? Anyways Revan's thoughts that you provided is not convincing evidence. Revan met Vitiate a whole whopping 1 time, so the likelihood that he as a good understanding of how long Vitiate requires to bring his full power to bear or if he needs time at all is very small. You also argue that Vitiate's need of preparation in order to bring his full power to bear is a unique case in SW, so your extension of this need to Revan as well is unfounded.

And Revan does something pretty similar by letting his power explode out of him, where all it does to an unprepared Vitiate is throw him backwards and hurt him a bit: 

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

He gathers his power by drawing upon the light and dark, and then releases it in a devastating blast that even knocks himself backwards. 

Note that nowhere is it stated that Revan gathers energy for an extended period of time in the same fashion as Vitiate or Nyriss. The fact that Revan used both the light and dark sides of the force for the energy attack is the only thing that differentiates it from a standard energy attack. So no this was not a supercharged attack in the way Vitiate's second to last lightning barrage or Nyriss's final lightning barrage was.

When? Even a quick bolts from Vitiate are avoided if possible:

He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy. Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks. The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.

Had Revan started gathering energy at the same time as Vitiate there's a good chance he would have been able to contain it and redirect the energy, likely resulting in Vitiate's death.

Absolutely no evidence for this beyond speculation. Vitiate had to unleash a chained blast to stomp Revan - not even indicative of his full power - and there is zero indication on Revan's behalf that he could ever have contained his full power:

[size=31]Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack. A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.[/size]

Avoiding the attacks is a smart tactic as it uses almost no energy to do so. No that it doesn't state how Revan deflected the third bolt back at Vitiate, unlike how its stated Revan blocks the first with his lightsaber. So its possible he deflected in back via force deflection. It should also be noted that Vitiate is sent flying several meters after being hit by the deflected third bolt. Note that nowhere is there any implicit or explicit evidence for a claim that Vitiate was unprepared for the bolt.

"It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on
the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a


primal hiss of hate."


The fact that Revan only suffered third degree burns is evidence that he contained most of the energy. This lightning barrage was stated to be "infinitely more powerful" than Nyriss's attack(capable of ashing individuals). Since Revan only received third degree burns from an attack enormously more powerful than one capable of incinerating people, it is fairly obvious Revan contained nearly the entirety of the barrage. Now I say that if Revan had started gathering energy at the same time as Vitiate he likely would've been able to redirect it because of how Nyriss's attack changes drastically in power when she charges it. Her lightning goes from knocking Meetra off her feet, to being capable of incinerating herself. So Revan having even a couple extra  seconds to gather energy would've likely been more than enough time to redirect the excess energy that gave him third degree burns. 

You like to talk about how Revan believed he compared to Vitiate but lets look at the narrator's view of the situation:

"Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s
head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his
mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he
needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest."


So it seems depending how you interpret this  that at best Vitiate was not confident he could overcome Revan with his standard non supercharged lightning while Revan was on guard, and at worst we have the narrator explicitly saying that Vitiate required Revan to be distracted in order to do so. Which would not be the case were Revan and Vitiate not peers.

Note that Revan would have been at his standard level of power since he was being simultaneously amped and hindered,

Hindered by what, exactly?

[size=31]while Vitiate was only being amped. So if the fight was on neutral ground it would be even more likely that Revan would have been able to redirect the energy.

[/size]

Hindered by the nexus. At least his connection to the light side of the force. Since Revan used both the LS and the DS in his fight with Vitiate he would be simultaneously amped and hindered. Now you might respond to this with the argument that Revan would only fight using the DS this fight but it seems that using amped DS energy and hindered LS energy simultaneously is more potent than amped DS energy alone. Otherwise he wouldn't have chosen to use both with his energy attack with Vitiate. Since he was using both sides of the force he would've been simultaneously amped and hindered by the DS nexus, while Vitiate would've only been amped.

[size=33]Vitiate also had a limited time to prepare himself (a few seconds, maybe a few minutes) before the fight started whereas Revan had all day to channel his powers and prepare himself mentally and physically for the fight ahead. [/size]

Have you considered that Vitiate needing long periods of prep to gather power is merely amping him beyond his normal power? Since we judge a character's power by what they can bring to bear within a time-span of a fight, Vitiate not having prep in the novel actually shows us what his normal level of power is without being amped by long periods of prep. And since you've established that Vitiate is unique in SW in the way he gathers power with prep you cannot apply this to Revan. So there's no evidence Revan was amped by his meditation prep like Vitiate would be.

@BreakofDawn

HellfireUnit wrote:@Ziggy I don't really followed forums other than CV so it is normal I didn't know about that debate. 

Also that novel was n-canon either way so none of it holds any value. Besides that, Prophets of the Dark Side were pawns of Sidious. It was implied this whole thing has been orchestraded by Sidious. His sudden appearance and annihilation of prophets proves that. This was nothing but a test for Vader if he had power into his hatred to defeat his opponent and Sidious got the result he wanted to. I'd write more about this but being on mobile sucks and I don't see the importance of an n-canon novel which I'd rather have it as canon.

That's just the thing...  I don't think the Novel is N-canon.  Perhaps I'll make it a discussion thread.  

As for the deeper meaning of the fight - it's less important than the details of the fight itself; where Maul was getting the better of him.  

Why the duel was orchestrated and what it means for the characters in question doesn't detract from how the duel was waged. 

As Maul's martial inferior, Vader prevailed against the odds via upset... much like Kenobi did in TPM.  Which is around where I'd rate Vader overall.

NotAA3 wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:MyGod isn't even a Vader fan tbh. He uses Vader to wank Starkiller and just makes it harder for anyone who can type a coherent sentence to defend Vader.

Except he's argued Vader is superior to Starkiller before.

Nothing's as bad when I caught him straight up lying when he claimed that the Kar Vastor Vader quote was written by the makers of TFU and that GL had checked the quote himself to make sure it was valid

Ziggy wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:@Ziggy I don't really followed forums other than CV so it is normal I didn't know about that debate. 

Also that novel was n-canon either way so none of it holds any value. Besides that, Prophets of the Dark Side were pawns of Sidious. It was implied this whole thing has been orchestraded by Sidious. His sudden appearance and annihilation of prophets proves that. This was nothing but a test for Vader if he had power into his hatred to defeat his opponent and Sidious got the result he wanted to. I'd write more about this but being on mobile sucks and I don't see the importance of an n-canon novel which I'd rather have it as canon.

That's just the thing...  I don't think the Novel is N-canon.  Perhaps I'll make it a discussion thread.  

As for the deeper meaning of the fight - it's less important than the details of the fight itself; where Maul was getting the better of him.  

Why the duel was orchestrated and what it means for the characters in question doesn't detract from how the duel was waged. 

As Maul's martial inferior, Vader prevailed against the odds via upset... much like Kenobi did in TPM.  Which is around where I'd rate Vader overall.

Note that TPM Kenobi received a circumstantial amp after Qui Gon Jinn died which aloud him to somewhat gain an advantage over Maul by splitting his saber staff. Vader had none of those advantages to aid him. Infact one could argue that the comic shows Vader being caught of guard by Maul's random appearance which could be a factor to why he didn't perform so well.  And even then he still managed to split Maul's saber staff.
Anyway Vader ultimately won the fight by using his durability to his advantage. I don't see why you would use this fight to suggest Pre Prime Vader is below TPM Kenobi, and then somehow say that Prime Vader is TPM Kenobi level. That's just absurd.

Ziggy wrote:First of all, there was no Vader "created" by Legends. 

 I was speaking in regards to his power his power level. Given the abundance  of quotes and feats that go against the Vader Lucas intended in his movies own universe, I say the difference is rather stark enough for them to be separately labeled.  

Ziggy wrote:There is the Vader Lucas created and once owned as intellectual property. 

 Yes, and Lucas had no problem allowing other authors and such take liberty with the overall character and power levels of his mythos from that deviates from movies -- I have no idea why you believe said writers must abide by obscure script and interviews released after the fact when it is explicitly stated to be a universe parallel from his own.       

Ziggy wrote:

While Lucas said the universes were separate, it is also true that LFL respected the movies and Lucas' vision at the top of the hierarchy within EU material itself, claiming that the only facts of Star Wars existed in the six movies alone and everything else was relative.

   Yes -- this is true, but it's not mutually exclusive to my point. The movies is the guideline all the EU follows, but it clearly deviates from Lucas vision (Lucas being against Sith Force Ghost, the ridiculous power levels of the Jedi/Sith, etc), hell, even the C-canon adaption of said events, sometimes differ widely from what's shown on-screen. I see it as the movies are unmoving within the Star Wars universe, its story will never be retconned or overwritten -- but the EU is expandable and relative to change --  as we've seen with Disney, can be hacked at a moment's notice. That doesn't rebuke the concept that an alternate universe in which the HNIC doesn't read and hardly acknowledges can't take various liberties with the characters.  


Especially when it's practically spelled out for us; E.I. Vader's supreme power.


 

Ziggy wrote:Regardless, Vader's EU feats aren't unprecedented nor are they top tier.  

Ehh, never actually claimed it was. He is clearly not Sidious or Valkorion but it is up there with the Dooku's and Arcann's of the mythos -- unless we cap 'em with 30 year old drafts. 

Ziggy wrote:They've been replicated in magnitude by characters outside of those leagues, such as K'kruhk. 

Yeah, I don't recall K'krunk casually crushing sub-light TIE-Fighters like coke cans while simultaneously fighting the effects of outer space, or K'krunk casually blasting through fortress' walls meant to repel military forces. Hell, Vader has ragdolled characters capable of whatever K'krunk has done, lmao.

Ziggy wrote:His combative feats against Force wielders; the only metric that matters, are mediocre considering the competition. 

Not really. Jax Pavan, a Jedi capable of wrestling shuttles off repair blocks, and creating illusion across an entire space station and Rahm Kota - a Jedi capable of deflecting Force lightning (something that is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi) and crashing TIE communicator systems, have all be demolished by Vader in the Force.  The latter of which would also grant Vader superiority to early TFU Galen [by proxy of Kota no-selling Galen Force attacks via absorption] -- a Force user with Luke Skywalker potential+ insane learning curve + and extensive and grueling decade + of training. 


When we look at characters with inferior potential, learning curve, and training than Galen (Darth Bane) and see how powerful they were able to become within that time period, then even neophyte Galen should be more powerful than the bulk of PT era Jedi, as evidenced by early ragdolling  TIE fighters, becoming a high level master of several forms and all but perfecting his martial capabilities. We all know TPM Kenobi can claim neither of the above.


The notion that Vader doesn't have good feats against worthwhile Force users is kinda funny, ngl. While he isn't ragdolling left and right, he isn't completely sterile at dominating good comp either.
 

Ziggy wrote:Vader doesn't need to be strong in Legends when he's left fighting the remnants of the Jedi order.

Need to? Nah. But he as a mater factually is. Being listed as one of the most powerful Jedi hunters, Sith and duelist in galactic history clearly paints a picture of power that Picasso himself would blush at.


 

Ziggy wrote:Which is both irrespective to the debate at hand, and inconsequential to how he was portrayed in the old story.  Which Disney clearly doesn't care about - See TLJ for reference.

It was an aside Ziggy-Zig. I wasn't meant to be a salient point of any kind.