Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

 

Good post DC (Feels odd calling somebody by a name I feel heavily associated with lol).

Nice posts, DS.

Will get back to yours later, KoB. Bit busy with uni prep and looking for a new laptop.

BreakofDawn wrote:Nice posts, DS.

Will get back to yours later, KoB. Bit busy with uni prep and looking for a new laptop.

No problem

I'm curious where Ziggy would rank Vader in relative to Caedus

Vader lowballing does not square with:

• Jax Pavon saying he's the strongest Force presence he's ever felt.
  
• Ferus Olin seeing him move faster than anyone he'd ever witnessed except Yoda.
  
• Nick noting that he's far more powerful than Kar Vastor.
  
• Vader ragdolling Kota in TFU who was matching early-game Galen.
  
• Vader tanking like 30 seconds of Starkiller's enraged lightning in TFUII.
  

Jax and Ferus were both trained Jedi, with Ferus being one of the most talented Jedi of his generation, Nick was a battle hardened Force sensitive who had known Kar Vastor for decades, early-game Galen powered a cruiser with a brief surge of Force lightning and one-shotted hundreds of troops with simple telekinesis, and Starkiller blew up a frigate. Mental gymnastics aside, it's clear that RotJ Vader is extremely powerful in Legends unless if you want to try to seriously use some old commentary statements to put TPM Obi Wan > RotJ Vader, as though that were a coherent view of the mythos (I guess Boba Fett died in RotJ?).

@the ellimist And what's funny is none of those early statements remotely suggest Vader is inferior to the PT Jedi

@ DerronSolo


Regarding Lucas vs The EU

Treating the Lucas' universe and EU as separate doesn't help your cause.  One clearly takes precedence over the other.  There was a system devised to resolve the exact type discrepancy here.  Said system was proposed by LFL and green-lit by the big man himself.  If you take a gander at forum guidelines it's mentioned that the Holocron System sets the standard for which debate metric is favoured.  In other words, the films, Lucas' commentary and notes are in fact > any comic or tale you wish to revere.  

Elaboration from LFL's Chris Cherasi: 

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films."

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play."

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract."

Every single word, feat and tidbit that isn't published by Lucas himself or existing in the six films is an interpretation of events happening in the real SW universe.  So trying to argue those interpretations are above the true facts, is not even bringing a knife to a gunfight.  It's trying to use a prison shiv crafted from duck tape and a scissor head against the Infinity-Gauntlet.  Like trying to argue Harry Potter video games and trading cards have more relevant canon than the seven books. 


Your second mistake is assuming Legends can be treated as one universe... as if it weren't a hundred different writers, styles and interpretations itself.  Yeah, sometimes the expanded lore contradicts Lucas' vision and other times adjacent works labelled C-canon are muddied.  There are inconsistencies in a lot more places than one.  With so many different bodies of material, it was inevitable.  You're claiming that Lucas' invention was rebuked because of all the... overrated... feats Vader has across various comics and books...  yet you admit the boon here isn't exclusive to Vader.  It applies to all Jedi and Sith 

DerronSolo wrote:but the EU clearly deviates from Lucas vision ... the ridiculous power levels of the Jedi/Sith

So the power creep benefits anyone who happens to exist in a hyperbolized medium - PT padawans lifting Star Destroyers.  Mace bowling an army of droids in CW only to have trouble against an Akk Dog in Shatterpoint.  Does this change where people are relative to one another?  No.  So Vader's sub TPM intent as per Lucas isn't contradicted by a single showing ejaculated.  Apparently Legends material respects that notion: 





Vader happens to exist in about 10 x more fiction than anyone I can compare him to.  A compendium of showings so vast the respect thread for him is read in three parts...  Yet not one standout feat.  Ant debunked all the ones thought to be really good.  He doesn't just suffer feature comparisons against people named Sidious and Valkorion, or even Dooku.  But sometimes against people in far lower echelons.  

K'kruhk -  against massively powered engine thrusters, slammed down a cruiser easily hundreds of times heavier (look up square-cube law) than any Tie Fighter could be : 

Spoiler:

Yet he got Dominated in the Force by Quinlan Vos, who in turn was dominated in the Force by Dooku. 

Darth Vader using his telekinesis - in The Force Unleashed II of all things - tried to stop Starkiller leaving Kamino's atmosphere in a Tie Fighter... and failed 

The Force Unleashed II wrote:
The starfighter behind him was unharmed by the devastation he had wrought. Starkiller ran to it and leapt inside. He worked its familiar controls with confident speed, activating systems still warm from its last flight.
.. 

Its ion engines snarled.

...

An invisible fist gripped the starfighter.

...

Starkiller increased the thrust. His determination met Darth Vader's rage, and for an instant he was unsure which would win.

...


Then all resistance fell away, and the TIE fighter leapt for the sky.

Tie Fighters cannot reach speeds above 1200KPH in a planet's atmosphere and doubting the engine thrusters are more powerful than a huge drop-ships, this is a poor feat.  A very poor feat by TFU II standards.  Lol, the writers were trying to exaggerate all aspects of Force power in that story.  As a pre-emptive rebuttal, Vader using Force crush on a different TIE fighter  doesn't contradict the aforementioned : 

DerronSolo wrote:Yeah, I don't recall K'krunk casually crushing sub-light TIE-Fighters like coke cans while simultaneously fighting the effects of outer space

First of all, there is no way in hell those Tie Fighters were actually moving at Sub-Light speeds in that instance : 

Spoiler:

Piloted by non-force sensitive Stormtroopers who were all trying to shoot at Vader - a small target, not in a ship, standing still on a platform. Moving at sub-light speeds isn't going to help their shooting of him.  Second of all, instead of resisting the power of its engine thrusters, Vader just crushes the material of the tie fighter, stopping the ship by destroying it, rather than halting it's momentum without destroying it.   Also....

Derron Solo wrote:while simultaneously fighting the effects of outer space

Gee... I wonder how much power he can dedicate to such a feat when his suit does most - if not all - of that for him.  Perhaps you should read the source books explaining the small oxygen supply he has for himself and the suits insulation. 


So even in an environmental feat comparison, K'kruhk comes out smelling like a rose.  Vader, a dusty shit stain whose sub-tpm intent is only solidified.  Yet somehow his superiority over Jax Pavan and Rham Kota, two complete and utter nobodies from the PT era, is helping him?  I'll address Pavan when you unearth the details of his greatness... otherwise I'm not really seeing anything to jump on.  

Derron Solo wrote:
Rahm Kota - a Jedi capable of deflecting Force lightning (something that is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi) and crashing TIE communicator systems,  demolished by Vader in the Force. 

A totally wankworty showing... right...

But It's clear where he's being portrayed among the PT order within The Force Unleashed itself

You've defeated an old man and an outcast, you must face a true Jedi Master [...] Master Shaak Ti.  One of the last of the Jedi Council

- Vader, The Force Unleashed. 

Kota is a tier 6. Below Shaak Ti and council masters - who by reputation - is below the B team (tier 7) and Kiadi-Mundi by feats.  Likely below Qui Gon too. 


It's clear what the writers are trying to convey.  Literally speaking, Vader is manipulating SK here, but it makes sense that he'd order the challenges from lowest to highest ensuring Galen could beat a couple of scrubs before taking on someone with decent renown in that era, even if all he had planned for Galen was to wipe out a few Jedi.  Tii is being portrayed above Kota here.  By all rights, she's a much more thematically relevant character.  You can wank over early game Galen's feats, and draw parity lines with Kota all you want.  But his own feat of bringing down the Tie-station wasn't exactly done with any casual measure of his strength.  It also isn't impressive considering he's just weakening the supports and letting Gravity do the rest.  But yeah, he matched Galen, who did some pretty gnarly things with force beforehand....  but that's just the thing.  Early game Galens impressive feats were done literally before the moments leading up to fighting Kota,  a lot of energy expenditure before a duel.  And he is capable of being exhausted after using the Force, we see that in TFUII.  Not to mention that Vader didn't Force choke the Kota Galen fought.  He forced choked! born-again Kota, who had only just picked up his Jedi robes after receding in Bespin pubs and diminishing his connection to the Force.  How good he really is, is anyone's guess at that point.  But his sub-council master intent is all I need to put him in the trash bin. 


Also... this little remark

Derron Solo wrote:This would also grant Vader superiority to early TFU Galen [by proxy of Kota no-selling Galen Force attacks via absorption] -- a Force user with Luke Skywalker potential+ insane learning curve + and extensive and grueling decade + of training. 

So Vader has ragdoll superiority over someone with Luke Skywalker potential+ ten years of training. 

Yet the actual Luke Skywalker was able to give him a decent fight by all accounts on Bespin, only having a few weeks of training on Degobah.

I'm sorry.  I have no choice here

The text stating "SK's determination met Vader's rage" could indicate that SK blocked Vader's TK attack, as opposed to the TIE Fighter's acceleration overpowering it.

I downloaded both RE: Code Veronica  and Jump Force last night, so I won't being seeing to this farce post until Monday, Ziggy.

Gotta respond to Az sometimes in the span too.

Ant never debunked all of Vader's best feats

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Traya was explicitly emphasised as more powerful, she just sucks as a combatant. Meetra doesn't have to be near Traya to not get outright ragdolled (As seen with multiple examples throughout the mythos) which is all she needs to then beat Traya in a fight due to her woeful combat skill. What can you do with this except put Meetra over some fodder masters, who themselves have no good feats? And why should it even allow her to compete with what Vader can bring to the table?

I'm assuming you're trolling given that Meetra's stated by almost every source on the matter, including Traya herself, to be more powerful. Which is all before the several years of power growth between KotOR II: TSL and SWTOR: Revan.

KingofBlades wrote:

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I don’t frankly hold Vader that low, compared to some of the guys here (Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is utter horseshit). I hold prime suit Vader Beneath Kun, which is why he loses. That’s not saying he’s that weak, he’s just sub Kun, who’s accolades of being > BFC Luke is rather impressive.

Tbh I don't see how Meetra scales above Kun. Your scaling chain didn't make much sense since you had multiple ragdoll tier gaps  between SF Bastila and Meetra and yet still said Bastila was in KotoR Revan's tier. This is especially hard to believe since Meetra was fodder tier compared to Revan Reborn who isn't that much stronger than KotOR Revan.

Meetra is absolutely nothing like fodder to Revan in the novel. 

LadyKulvax wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I don’t frankly hold Vader that low, compared to some of the guys here (Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is utter horseshit). I hold prime suit Vader Beneath Kun, which is why he loses. That’s not saying he’s that weak, he’s just sub Kun, who’s accolades of being > BFC Luke is rather impressive.

Tbh I don't see how Meetra scales above Kun. Your scaling chain didn't make much sense since you had multiple ragdoll tier gaps  between SF Bastila and Meetra and yet still said Bastila was in KotoR Revan's tier. This is especially hard to believe since Meetra was fodder tier compared to Revan Reborn who isn't that much stronger than KotOR Revan.

Meetra is absolutely nothing like fodder to Revan in the novel. 

Regardless of your opinion of who is superior on neutral ground between Meetra and Nyriss it doesn't change the fact that she would've been incinerated by Nyriss's supercharged lightning. Lightning which Revan effortlessly contained and redirected back to Nyriss. Which shows the ridiculous gap between Revan and Meetra.

Literally only Scourge says he'd be incinerated, besides the fact Meetra was on the floor recovering when Nyriss was about to attack. Nor is Revan catching Nyriss' Force Storm and then throwing her own power back at her an indication he's actually beyond Nyriss by magnitudes. How people can take the logic that Nyriss' immediately generatable energy < Nyriss' fully-charged Force Storm as if that means Revan godstomps is mind-boggling poor logic. He could only merely be on par with her and he'd still be capable of pulling this off. Hell, I don't see a reason why Surik wouldn't do the same in a position when she's at full strength and had the time to prepare a full tutaminis defense, given that she was capable of absorbing most of the power of a Force lightning attack from Nyriss with a mere instinctive Force barrier defense.

Once you take away the nexus, Meetra is the only one of the four that actually performs better because all three of the others involved can channel dark side energy from the nexus.

Literally nothing states Meetra's barrier was instinctual. You're reading what you wish were true into the writing.

It's stated that she reacted in the same way Nyriss did, which was an instinctual barrier at the last second to defend against a Force attack. It's pretty damn simple.

The text said similar not same iirc. Also the text explicitly states Nyriss's barrier was instinctual. That isn't the case for Meetra's barrier

The whole point was that she reacted in the same way or the line would be redundant.

So where the hell is this cancer idea that Traya is a weak duelist coming from?

She scales massively above her Arren Kae incarnation who was an equal for Yusanis, who if we take the Handmaiden's statements properly, only lost to Darth Revan because he wasn't fast enough. Not because he was outskilled.

Furthermore, her actual knowledge of the lightsaber forms and the ancient Sith lightsaber techniques is the best of her time after Exar Kun.

Here's the line from the novel:

"Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the
worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet."


Really all this is saying is that Meetra brought up a barrier to defend against a force attack like Nyriss did. It's not saying they used the same type of barrier. That's just reading what you want into the text. And if you wanna argue authorial intent, Revan and Vitiate were always meant to be far above Meetra and Scourge.

There's no reason to say it was like Nyriss if it's just saying she was using a Force barrier. It'd be a completely pointless line to put in there if it wasn't indicating that it was comparable to exactly what Nyriss had done.

This is essentially coming down to what the author's intent was with that line. My interpretation concludes Nyriss being considerably above Meetra. Yours suggests comparability. However the author did not intend for Meetra and Nyriss to be comparable(while on DK, not referring to neutral ground) considering Nyriss was about to eliminate Meetra only a few seconds into the fight were it not for Scourge's intervention. Since it's doubtful Nyriss has any significant form of superiority in saber skill, the only way this happens is through a large superiority in force augmentation. Such a gap in force augmentation would only be present if Nyriss was much more powerful in the force. So my interpretation of the line fits better with how the author intended the gap between their powers to be.

Are you seriously arguing authorial intent now?

If Meetra is literally fodder to Revan, how the fvck is she even able to react to him and Vitiate's fight? Surely she is straight up incapable of even noticing if she's fodder?

Obviously she isn't fodder, hence why she can throw her lightsaber across a throneroom hard enough to disarm Vitiate of his borrowed lightsaber, with such speed that she intercepts Vitiate's blade where he's already in mid-swing before she even starts to throw it. Which explains why he's half scared shitless when properly faced with her up close. And also why Revan thinks she and Scourge could close the power gap differential between himself and Vitiate.

She's not fodder to Vitiate, nevermind Revan.