Relative rankings of the Outlander, Revan, and Vaylin

I've seen a lot of different placement of these characters in relation to each other and was wondering where everyone placed them. Please post reasons and not just "Revan > Outlander > Vaylin" or something similar.

Outlander > unchained Vaylin > Revan. Vaylin by statements and accolades has scared even full power Valkorion and was enough of a threat to SWTOR Vitiate that he sought a way to imprison her before she grew too powerful to control (his own words). Her feats also massively outstrip Revan's, including overloading generators on the biggest void in the galaxy from orbit and one-shotting Valkorion's ghost, Arcann and Senya, as well as making full power Valkorion put in a considerable amount of effort just to control her despite her spirit being under his nigh-complete control.


The Outlander per feats and accolades is more powerful than her, albeit not by much as of KOTET. He was able to resist a wave capable of one-shotting the aforementioned characters, piercing Vaylin's Force barrier in a single strike, surviving Valkorion's attempt to destroy them and defeating Vaylin (and Arcann as well, depending on your choice in chapter 1) again. 

You can bring up Revan scaring Vitiate by "nearly striking him down" as much as you want, but there's considerable context for that. For one, Vitiate had never faced an especially powerful opponent in single combat before, as every time someone had challenged him his Imperial guards had stopped them before they could even get close to him. However, Revan's plan alone was what allowed him to get close to Vitiate. When Vitiate turned his full power on Revan, he had him on the floor screaming in a single attack and was only stopped by T4's sacrifice and then Meetra and Scourge's intervention. It was as much the fact that someone outsmarted him and got remotely close to him that scared him and caused him to take precautions, not necessarily because Revan's full power scared him (the text even supports this as the only time he expressed doubt or uncertainty was when Meetra - who he hadn't gotten a sense of how powerful she was - and Scourge also joined in, and even then he was confident he'd win).

This isn't to say Revan isn't able to give either a good or great fight, but he's certainly not their equal in power. He might be able to beat Vaylin simply due to knowledge, esoteric abilities and discipline, but he's not beating the Outlander, who's both more skilled and reasonably more powerful.

I have them a small gap below the ROTS titans (Yoda, Sidious, prime Mace, KFV) simply because of their showings and accolades. There's enough of a gap that the titans would beat them for a solid majority, but not enough of one that they could do it without high or maximum effort.

I actually want to do a large-scale debunk of Outlander shenanigans in the near-future, but for now I'll give a vague, controversial, and largely unhelpful response.

Vaylin definitely strikes me as the most powerful from a "raw power" POV. She gets tons of wank, and the late-KOTET Outlander literally ran from her passive energies like a mile away. Revan's second and the best at using his powers in battle. The Outlander's likely the least powerful and perhaps beneath even Arcann.

As combatants, Revan and the Outlander are obviously leagues beyond Vaylin. I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlander's a better duelist than Revan in some respects, but Revan should also be stronger, faster, smarter, etc., and Revan should have his teleportation and Sion-esque durability to compliment his style.

If it's a contest of who can lift the heavier object, I'll give it to Vaylin. If it's who would win in a three-way, definitely giving it to Revan.

Vaylin definitely strikes me as the most powerful from a "raw power" POV. She gets tons of wank, and the late-KOTET Outlander literally ran from her passive energies like a mile away.

@DarthAnt66 Those weren't her passive energies. Those were the blasts released from the generators where a single one was capable of disintegrating Nathema zealots specifically trained to resist the pull of the void. The Outlander was also not at full strength on Nathema, so it's hardly a fair comparison to make. 

Based on her fights though, Revan's likely the most powerful from a combative POV.

The Outlander's likely the least powerful and perhaps beneath even Arcann.

...He beats Arcann in a straight up fight in chapter 6 depending on your choice, is acknowledged as more powerful than Arcann, and can beat both him and Vaylin at the same time in the finale depending on how you play it. He also bests unchained Vaylin twice, who could one-shot Arcann.

As combatants, Revan and the Outlander are obviously leagues beyond Vaylin. I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlander's a better duelist than Revan in some respects, but Revan should also be stronger, faster, smarter, etc., and Revan should have his teleportation and Sion-esque durability to compliment his style

Nothing suggests Revan is stronger, though. His only edge is in teleportation and durability. The Outlander is simply more powerful.

If it's a contest of who can lift the heavier object, I'll give it to Vaylin. If it's who would win in a three-way, definitely giving it to Revan.

I'd give it to him if I believed they had no defence against his versatility, but they both have experience facing opponents with versatility and I've yet to see Revan heal from dismemberment.

Those weren't her passive energies. Those were the blasts released from the generators where a single one was capable of disintegrating Nathema zealots specifically trained to resist the pull of the void. The Outlander was also not at full strength on Nathema, so it's hardly a fair comparison to make. 

It's said to be her power specifically.

...He beats Arcann in a straight up fight in chapter 6 depending on your choice, is acknowledged as more powerful than Arcann, and can beat both him and Vaylin at the same time in the finale depending on how you play it. 

I'm aware of the first and third. Quote for the second? Perhaps the Outlander can be salvaged somewhat.

@DarthAnt66 

It's said to be her power specifically.

I believe you're talking about this:


Jarak: "Vaylin...something went wrong. Her power is racing out of control. When it erupts, the entire asylum will be destroyed."


Jarak was talking about Vaylin's power exploding out of her and approaching a point where it would destroy the asylum, not that the power specifically rushing towards them was Vaylin's. Last I checked, those bolts weren't causing the asylum to collapse, only disintegrating anything in their path.


Not convinced? Here's more evidence:







The blasts and energy wave are a pale green colour in nature. Vaylin's power has never once been depicted as green:






Every time Vaylin's power has been released, it's been depicted as purple, just as Arcann's is depicted as a pale yellow. The blasts you saw were Vaylin overworking the generators and sending them into meltdown, causing them to emit uncontrollable blasts that flooded the asylum. Vaylin's immense power caused them to overload, it wasn't her power blasting out of her.

Again, the Outlander wasn't even at full strength at this point so using this as an anti-feat for them isn't remotely fair.

I'm aware of the first and third. Quote for the second?

It's not a direct quote, more Arcann revering the Outlander's strength:


"Father was right to recognise your strength."
"I know better than anyone not to question your strength."

There's also Valkorion excluding Arcann when discussing Vaylin's full power:


"If Vaylin breaks her conditioning, even you may not be strong enough to stop her."

BreakofDawn wrote:The blasts and energy wave are a pale green colour in nature. Vaylin's power has never once been depicted as green

This isn't entirely true. Vaylin has green lightning here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5S5730f3I&t=13s

Revan is easily the strongest, given his comparability to Vitiate. Vaylin is below him by a considerable, but not massive amount. The Outlander is pretty far below that as well.

Praxis wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:The blasts and energy wave are a pale green colour in nature. Vaylin's power has never once been depicted as green

This isn't entirely true. Vaylin has green lightning here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5S5730f3I&t=13s

Cheers, forgot about that. Regardless, we see that the actual lightning itself (the central blast itself) is purple, as well as every attack she makes in the game including in game mechanics is depicted as purple.

PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Revan is easily the strongest, given his comparability to Vitiate. Vaylin is below him by a considerable, but not massive amount. The Outlander is pretty far below that as well.

Vitiate outright feared Vaylin would become more powerful than him, and even Valkorion was scared of her full power being released. Revan has nothing even remotely close to that, nor does he have the feats to match it. And how is the Outlander "far below" Vaylin when he's beaten her twice?

Vitiate is full of shit. Revan literally mathed him and he says to Outlander: "yOu ArE tHe OnLy wOrthY oNe"

HellfireUnit wrote:Vitiate is full of shit. Revan literally mathed him and he says to Outlander: "yOu ArE tHe OnLy wOrthY oNe"

Yeah but that's cos Revan was batshit crazy by SoR and the Outlander is either a boy scout or a power-hungry arsehole.

@Green vs Purple: Hm, there might actually be some merit to that.  I was thinking of another quote, but I suppose it could have been the generators. That makes more sense of the absurdity, but is still equally as legitimate for a Vaylin > Outlander case (perhaps moreso).

Again, the Outlander wasn't even at full strength at this point so using this as an anti-feat for them isn't remotely fair.

Lol, we're talking about the difference between Vaylin directly tanking the full blast of like eight reactors to the Outlander running away from stray passive emanations miles away. And Valkorion largely shielded the Void from the Outlander: "Keeping the void at bay requires nearly all my strength." / "Valkorion said he can protect us."

It's not a direct quote, more Arcann revering the Outlander's strength:

I'm not seeing how that puts Arcann below the Outlander in raw power, lol.

"If Vaylin breaks her conditioning, even you may not be strong enough to stop her."

I mean, yeah? Obviously the Outlander's the foremost combatant of the two if he beat him twice.

[hideedit]

Praxis wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:The blasts and energy wave are a pale green colour in nature. Vaylin's power has never once been depicted as green

This isn't entirely true. Vaylin has green lightning here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5S5730f3I&t=13s

Hm, that's interesting.  I think we get the same effect regardless if it's the reactors or Vaylin's power though.

@DarthAnt66 

Lol, we're talking about the difference between Vaylin directly tanking the full blast of like eight reactors

Reactors keyed to a certain power intensity that were letting her tap into her full power as they broke it down. If her powers were "racing out of control", she was able to tap into her full power as the conditioning failed and gain an increasing level of control over it, which as a consequence caused the reactors to overload.

to the Outlander running away from stray passive emanations miles away.

"Passive"? The bolts were literally racing at them. 

And Valkorion largely shielded the Void from the Outlander: "Keeping the void at bay requires nearly all my strength." / "Valkorion said he can protect us."

Not what he said. 

"My power is limited here, but I will do what I can to shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void."

AKA partially shielding them from the complete insanity the void inflicted on anyone not trained to resist it, and even then Lana and the Outlander expressed severe discomfort and felt like "it's worse here. The void-its hunger. It wants to devour me, mind and spirit. Annihilate every trace of my existence." Valkorion took the edge off it and left them with some of their full power, nothing more. You're welcome to find confirmation that they were at their full strength on the planet when even chained Vaylin (who was as powerful if not even more so than spirit Valkorion) was left powerless until she tapped into her full power through the reactors, but I doubt you'll find it. It's more than highly likely that they were not operating at their full strength, especially since there's a direct comparison between the beams apparently threatening to disintegrate them and the Outlander merely being staggered by Vaylin unleashing her full power on Odessen. 

I'm not seeing how that puts Arcann below the Outlander in raw power, lol.

...The fact that he's beaten him at least once and even twice along with Vaylin depending on how you play the game (and yes, the dark side path is valid) on top of this? You know I respect you in these kind of debates, but if you're going to be really pedantic I'll happily pull up screenshots of how each of them fared against Vaylin's full power to further evidence the vast disparity between them.

I mean, yeah? Obviously the Outlander's the foremost combatant of the two if he beat him twice.

Which basically confirms my point that the Outlander >> Arcann at this point, lol. In that same sentence, Valkorion expressed his belief that a fight between unchained Vaylin and late KOTET could go either way, whereas numerous sources depict Arcann as being < chained Vaylin.

One thing I'm certain about is that Vaylin certainly has the greatest feats out of the trio and undeniably has more raw power than either The Outlander or Revan. Operating under this assumption I think it all comes down to how much more powerful Vaylin is than Revan (whether it can compensate for his greater mastery) and how close to Vaylin The Outlander is in raw power.

My personal opinion is:

The Outlander>Vaylin>Revan.

I can see a case for Revan being above The Outlander or Vaylin though.

@NotAA3 I can definitely understand saying Vaylin > the Outlander in raw power, but I'm not so sure. I have their potential around the same level, maybe with the Outlander having a slight edge. It's hard to judge.

BreakofDawn wrote:Outlander > unchained Vaylin > Revan. Vaylin by statements and accolades has scared even full power Valkorion and was enough of a threat to SWTOR Vitiate that he sought a way to imprison her before she grew too powerful to control (his own words).

And Ventress scared Sheev. All aboard the Asajj > Revan train. Choo choo!

Her feats also massively outstrip Revan's, including overloading generators on the biggest void in the galaxy from orbit

Why is that impressive and why should anyone care? How do you compare it to Revan running the Star Forge gauntlet? Do you have a common reference point or are you just arbitrarily assuming one feat is superior to the other even though in reality they're disparate in nature and can't really be compared?

and one-shotting Valkorion's ghost

Citation needed.

, Arcann and Senya,

I'm convinced they were caught off-guard. If her energy was actually powerful enough to just rip through Arcann's barrier, it would have incinerated Senya, Lana, and Theron who are all much weaker than Arcann, yet they didn't suffer any worse injuries than he did.

as well as making full power Valkorion put in a considerable amount of effort just to control her despite her spirit being under his nigh-complete control.

Tbh I think the entire Chapter 9 mind control feat is BS - I don't think Valkorion's capable of mind-controlling either Arcann or Vaylin if they were dropped into a physical fight cold with no prep - so if you're referring that, fair.

If, however, you're referring to Chapter 3 where Valkorion's debuts Vaylin's conditioning, that wasn't full power Valkorion.

The Outlander per feats and accolades is more powerful than her, albeit not by much as of KOTET.

Citation needed.

He was able to resist a wave capable of one-shotting the aforementioned characters,

They were caught off-guard, so I see no evidence she can one-shot Arcann by ripping through his defenses. And this doesn't prove the Outlander's more powerful than Vaylin; it proves the exact opposite, as he would only have been forced to block the amount of her energy that was hitting the surface area of his body, which is a fraction of the totality as it was being released omnidirectionally. Had she focused it all on him, I'm not convinced he would have endured given he had immense difficulty withstanding that little of it.

piercing Vaylin's Force barrier in a single strike,

...with a lightsaber.

surviving Valkorion's attempt to destroy them and defeating Vaylin (and Arcann as well, depending on your choice in chapter 1) again.

He only survived by clinging to Valkorion's form which he had just shed. Not that this proves any superiority to Vaylin anyway since we have never seen how she would fare in a similar scenario.

As for the fight, we don't know if Vaylin and Arcann under Valkorion's thrall are as strong as normally - they could be expending energy trying to break free. And that whole scene is a psychic contest of wills rather than a physical fight anyway, so I'm not convinced it translates fully into an actual combat showing.

You can bring up Revan scaring Vitiate by "nearly striking him down" as much as you want, but there's considerable context for that. For one, Vitiate had never faced an especially powerful opponent in single combat before, as every time someone had challenged him his Imperial guards had stopped them before they could even get close to him. However, Revan's plan alone was what allowed him to get close to Vitiate. When Vitiate turned his full power on Revan, he had him on the floor screaming in a single attack and was only stopped by T4's sacrifice and then Meetra and Scourge's intervention. It was as much the fact that someone outsmarted him and got remotely close to him that scared him and caused him to take precautions, not necessarily because Revan's full power scared him (the text even supports this as the only time he expressed doubt or uncertainty was when Meetra - who he hadn't gotten a sense of how powerful she was - and Scourge also joined in, and even then he was confident he'd win).

This isn't to say Revan isn't able to give either a good or great fight, but he's certainly not their equal in power. He might be able to beat Vaylin simply due to knowledge, esoteric abilities and discipline, but he's not beating the Outlander, who's both more skilled and reasonably more powerful.

I'll leave the Revan stuff to Ant.

I have them a small gap below the ROTS titans (Yoda, Sidious, prime Mace, KFV) simply because of their showings and accolades. There's enough of a gap that the titans would beat them for a solid majority, but not enough of one that they could do it without high or maximum effort.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced by this too, but that's off-topic.

Reactors keyed to a certain power intensity that were letting her tap into her full power as they broke it down. If her powers were "racing out of control", she was able to tap into her full power as the conditioning failed and gain an increasing level of control over it, which as a consequence caused the reactors to overload.

"Passive"? The bolts were literally racing at them. 

OK? How does that mitigate my comparison? 

The top image is what Vaylin tanked for minutes. The bottom image is what would have "tore the Outlander apart" "into ash." Same energies, too.





And yes, passive. Those bolts just rippled away from Vaylin and strayed across a giant compound to the Outlander. 

Not what he said. 

I did direct quotes, lol.

 then Lana and the Outlander expressed severe discomfort and felt like "it's worse here. The void-its hunger. It wants to devour me, mind and spirit. Annihilate every trace of my existence."

Except the Outlander responded with, "That's not going to happen. Valkorion said he can protect us." 

"My power is limited here, but I will do what I can to shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void."

And? Valkorion still stated he would "keep the Void at bay" via using "nearly all his strength. I'm sorry, but a multi-one-shot gap isn't reconciled by some largely unstated and nebulous weakening. The Outlander would have to be operating at like 5% of his power on Nathema otherwise. 

...The fact that he's beaten him at least once

Yet was still blatantly less powerful.



The Outlander was dead here if not for spirit Valkorion's tutaminis. And the Outlander actively hurled himself onto the floor to avoid Arcann's telekinesis. And the Outlander was circumstantially amplified by his lightsaber. And the Outlander only beat Arcann due to capitalizing on Arcann losing his footing as the floor shook.

and even twice along with Vaylin depending on how you play the game (and yes, the dark side path is valid) on top of this?

Why would the dark side path be any more valid than the non-Force sensitive options?  

Which basically confirms my point that the Outlander >> Arcann at this point, lol. In that same sentence, Valkorion expressed his belief that a fight between unchained Vaylin and late KOTET could go either way, whereas numerous sources depict Arcann as being < chained Vaylin.

What are you responding to? I specifically said I was skeptical of the Outlander having more raw power than Arcann. None of that has anything to do with what I said.

Honestly Vitiate being scared of Vaylin doesn't mean anything. Only puts her above Arcann and Thexan. Revan was the most serious threat Tenebrae has ever faced and yet he didn't consider Revan as an important person, rather deemed Outlander to be the only significant one in hundreds years of his lifetime.

I'd say Revan > Outlander > Vaylin

It's a shame TOR suffered so much from shit writing.

@Azronger And Ventress scared Sheev. All aboard the Asajj > Revan train. Choo choo!

Real train.

So in your opinion, Marr>Dooku>>Ventress>Revan

OK? How does that mitigate my comparison? 

The top image is what Vaylin tanked for minutes. The bottom image is what would have "tore the Outlander apart" "into ash." Same energies, too.

You're comparing carefully moderated beams that allowed Vaylin to begin unlocking her full power a few seconds after they hit her to a wall of unstable and reactive energy rushing towards a weakened Outlander and Lana. 

I did direct quotes, lol.

No. You paraphrased, and in doing so altered the intent and the context of the quote, creating a misleading picture of what Valk said.

Except the Outlander responded with, "That's not going to happen. Valkorion said he can protect us."  

So, just to be clear:

>Valkorion says he'll do what he can to protect them while struggling to manifest himself even while in orbit.
> Lana, upon entering the asylum's walls, expresses severe discomfort and feeling like the void is trying to tear her apart. 
> The Outlander claims Valk will protect them.
> Lana responds that she "hopes" he can.

...How does that in any way discount the idea that Valk was only able to partially protect them, especially since he was not only barely able to manifest on the planet but also explicitly said he would do "all that he can", AKA he'd try his best? His best clearly wasn't good enough as Lana and the Outlander (see the first option where he says "the Force feels wrong here" or something along those lines) expressed severe discomfort and nausea at the void's effects.

And? Valkorion still stated he would "keep the Void at bay" via using "nearly all his strength.

"All That I Can" and to "shield you and your companions from the worst effects of the void." How many times do I have to keep repeating this? At best, he protected them from going insane within a few minutes, again suggested by his admission that the void's pull, even by his standards, was "powerful". That does not in any way contradict the idea that they were weakened. 

I'm sorry, but a multi-one-shot gap isn't reconciled by some largely unstated and nebulous weakening. The Outlander would have to be operating at like 5% of his power on Nathema otherwise.  

Rigghht, and we know that the Outlander would have been one-shotted because he ran from a wall of unstable energy which he had no clue what it was, right? Do I need to point out that even spirit Valk disappeared rather than face it, even though it was purely physical? No idiot just stands as a wall of what looks like deadly energy rushes towards them, regardless of whether they could or could not tank it. 

Why would the dark side path be any more valid than the non-Force sensitive options?  

You're absolutely right. The Emperor's Wrath was a light side tier V do-gooder who only wanted to be a peacemaker. Totally a fair equivalence to the smuggler not having his neck instantly snapped. 

How about this: tell me how this


shows Arcann = or > the Outlander. I have yet to see a single iota of evidence from you - even a quote - to support the idea that Arcann > the late KOTET Outlander. By contrast, there are a myriad of feats as well as implications suggesting that the Outlander massively outgrew Arcann as a Force user, especially since you're conveniently ignoring the fact that KOTET was massively condensed, hence the fluctuations in the Outlander's power level from being < chained Vaylin as of chapter 4 to seemingly being > unchained Vaylin as of chapter 9.

@Azronger I'm only going to respond to this briefly because a lot of what you've said, Ant has already said.

And Ventress scared Sheev. All aboard the Asajj > Revan train. Choo choo!

And is there a source explicitly describing Ventress as being comparable to Sheev? Because there is for Vaylin:

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

From the moment his daughter, Vaylin, was born, Valkorion felt her strong connection to the Force. As she grew up, the Immortal Emperor noticed similarities between them, which both pleased and frightened him, and he decided to keep a tight leash on his favorite child.

Why is that impressive and why should anyone care? How do you compare it to Revan running the Star Forge gauntlet?

Which part of "on the biggest void in the Force in the galaxy" was unclear?

Citation needed.

It's in the gif I posted. When Vaylin erupts with the Force wave, Valkorion immediately disappears for at least a few seconds before managing to reform very briefly.

I'm convinced they were caught off-guard. If her energy was actually powerful enough to just rip through Arcann's barrier, it would have incinerated Senya, Lana, and Theron who are all much weaker than Arcann, yet they didn't suffer any worse injuries than he did.

You mean like how Revan failed to one-shot Jakarro or Theron? Or do we chalk that up all of them (including the Force users) being caught off guard? Also, note that if they were caught off guard then so should the Outlander have been, especially since he was paying attention to Valkorion at the time.

Tbh I think the entire Chapter 9 mind control feat is BS - I don't think Valkorion's capable of mind-controlling either Arcann or Vaylin if they were dropped into a physical fight cold with no prep - so if you're referring that, fair.

I don't think he could, either. I don't hold much stock in Valkorion's TP abilities.

If, however, you're referring to Chapter 3 where Valkorion's debuts Vaylin's conditioning, that wasn't full power Valkorion.

I know. I even specified that earlier IIRC.

Citation needed.

Literally 2 fights, plus Valkorion suggesting the Outlander vs unchained Vaylin would be a very close fight that could go either way.

They were caught off-guard, so I see no evidence she can one-shot Arcann by ripping through his defenses.

Already addressed this.

And this doesn't prove the Outlander's more powerful than Vaylin; it proves the exact opposite, as he would only have been forced to block the amount of her energy that was hitting the surface area of his body, which is a fraction of the totality as it was being released omnidirectionally. Had she focused it all on him, I'm not convinced he would have endured given he had immense difficulty withstanding that little of it.

Considering that she clearly grew more desperate as he moved closer, I see no reason to believe that she wouldn't have released even more energy at him to push him back. Also, watching the video it appears that she does intensify the amount of power directed at him, and he still struggles through it.

...with a lightsaber.

I'm sorry, would it have been more convincing if he'd drop kicked her? Bioware aren't going to have the Outlander drop his lightsaber and shove his hands through the barrier.

He only survived by clinging to Valkorion's form which he had just shed. Not that this proves any superiority to Vaylin anyway since we have never seen how she would fare in a similar scenario.

I wasn't saying it does. I said it as an example of an impressive TP resistance feat by the Outlander.

As for the fight, we don't know if Vaylin and Arcann under Valkorion's thrall are as strong as normally - they could be expending energy trying to break free. And that whole scene is a psychic contest of wills rather than a physical fight anyway, so I'm not convinced it translates fully into an actual combat showing.

You're welcome to make a case for that. However, right now it stands as an accurate example of their power levels, further indicated by the fact that there is a long bloody fight between the Outlander and Vaylin. As for the "expending energy trying to break free" bit, it's made very clear that they are completely under his control. They start threatening him, Valk suppresses him, Outlander encourages them, they fight again, then they're fully subjected to his will and do everything he wants until they're freed by the holocron. There's zero indication whatsoever that they were weakened in any way, shape or form.