Re: Mustafar Vader hindered or not?

September 1st 2019, 2:34 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

O-Siri wrote:@Praxis

I see it as Kenobi letting the Force dictate the course of the battle, much like how it was on Utapau. That said the script makes it clear Kenobi can't stand his ground with Skywalker as he could with Dooku or Grievous, hence him "having no choice but to tightrope-walk". So while I'll allow for that giving ground was in part with keeping in Kenobi's strategy it was also very much a forced move, which tells me Anakin most likely would have won had Kenobi been forced to remain on the tight-spaced floating platform.

Yeah I think I can somewhat agree with what you are saying. If Kenobi was capable of stonewalling him then why didn't he? I think this question could probably have multiple answers and is something worthy of discussion.

Edit: wording

September 1st 2019, 2:44 pm

As for Kenobi being no match for Sidious, yeah obviously Kenobi doesn't have a chance, but that doesn't mean he can't hold his own defensively in sabers, in a likewise fashion. Could he deflect a TK attack? I think he could unless it came to fast or unexpectedly to counter. It seems that going by movie mechanics at least you don't have to be equally powerful to repel Force attacks and you don't have to be more powerful to score a telling blow. In any case, Sidious would definitely beat him with lightning, an asset Anakin doesn't have.

September 1st 2019, 7:10 pm

His raw power was greater but his combative capability/control was a fraction of it usually was. This is the conclusion that most accurately incorporates all sources without trying to force a contradiction between quotes.

September 1st 2019, 7:29 pm

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:His raw power was greater but his combative capability/control was a fraction of it usually was. This is the conclusion that most accurately incorporates all sources without trying to force a contradiction between quotes.

September 1st 2019, 7:31 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:His raw power was greater but his combative capability/control was a fraction of it usually was. This is the conclusion that most accurately incorporates all sources without trying to force a contradiction between quotes.

Mustafar Vader hindered or not? - Page 2 1289255181

September 1st 2019, 9:25 pm

I'd say the only thing playing against Anakin was his judgment. LS Anakin seemed to have a better measure of his limits hence him agreeing to take Dooku together instead of rushing in recklessly. For comparison purposes, I can see Kenobi leading the same marathon duel with Mace before eventually losing, but if it came to the same point Mace wouldn't in character rashly jump at Kenobi with a high ground advantage. But then again I don't really see this as a circumstantial hindrance more than a legitimate shortcoming that applies to any version of DS Anakin. Again Obi-Wan won with an environmental advantage and it was his unique defensive talents that enabled him to seek out the position, something his peers in Maul and Dooku lack.

In regards to application, I don't see any source supporting that or inferential logic. Aside from the quotes already provided, the novel states he used the full heat of his fury:

"He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury."

I think the main sticking point is that people think Yoda and Sidious could stomp Kenobi. He's no match for them obviously but I don't see how he's in their stomping range. In pure sabers, I'm sure they'ed find his defense a bitch to crack as well. In Force, well obviously they are more powerful but are they powerful enough to effortlessly ragdoll him? I mean I always bring up Dooku who Kenobi should have proximity too. Why didn't Yoda just simply ragdoll Dooku on Geonosis and capture him alive, when it is perfectly within his morals to ragdoll Ventress? Because the only logical answer is that he can't. Now Sidious can almost certainly beat Kenobi quickly and without much difficulty, if he opened up with lightning but Vader doesn't have lightning, so moot point. I have no doubt Sidious and Yoda are capable of landing powerful telling Force pushes on Kenobi that could stun him, as Sidious was able to do this to Mace in some sources, but they'd still have to seek an opening much like Sidious needed to against Maul in Shadow Conspiracy.

September 1st 2019, 9:48 pm

No, Sidious/Yoda would definitely penetrate Kenobi’s guard comfortably within a minute.

September 1st 2019, 9:50 pm

Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

September 1st 2019, 11:03 pm

Meatpants wrote:No, Sidious/Yoda would definitely penetrate Kenobi’s guard comfortably within a minute.

A minute isn't a stomp, or Maul vs Jinn on Tatooine is a stomp. And it depends on the environment or if Obi-Wan will stand his ground or stick and move. In a confined environment, they should be able to break him in good time yeah as Anakin surely would have.

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

That's not what I said:

O-Siri wrote:I have no doubt Sidious and Yoda are capable of landing powerful telling Force pushes on Kenobi that could stun him, as Sidious was able to do this to Mace in some sources, but they'd still have to seek an opening much like Sidious needed to against Maul in Shadow Conspiracy.

I said Sidious and Yoda are incapable of stomping Kenobi not that they wouldn't be able to penetrate his defenses.

As for Dooku being drained, you are relying on the outlier(note I said outlier not contradictory) novelization, which is the only major source that really emphasizes Dooku's exhaustion (and no *tired* isn't the same thing) and Dooku's weakness to strength. And in that version, he needed to take advantage of their distraction with the droids to incapacitate the duo:

RotS:

This is a low showing for Anakin too not just Kenobi, as he was sent flying with his attention on Dooku and I'm sure no one is going to argue a drained Dooku is >>> Angry Anakin+Kenobi, especially when Anakin was pressing his advantage not moments before no matter which version you go by.

September 1st 2019, 11:36 pm

O-Siri wrote:A minute isn't a stomp, or Maul vs Jinn on Tatooine is a stomp. And it depends on the environment or if Obi-Wan will stand his ground or stick and move. In a confined environment, they should be able to break him in good time yeah as Anakin surely would have.

Well to clarify, the Tatooine duel was evenly matched right until the end, it wasn't one-sided; whereas Kenobi vs Yoda/Sidious with lethal intent in sabers would be for sure. Regardless of what "stomp" means, you said "I'm sure they'ed find his defense a bitch to crack as well." In reference to pure sabers, which is what I'm contending with. The fight would be one-sided, and not at all like the Tatooine duel.

September 1st 2019, 11:55 pm

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

Your usage of the term "break through defenses" is pretty funny. I wonder why you don't extend the term "breaking of defenses" to Anakin being kicked by Dooku across a considerable distance? Why should a physical strike not be considered when you consider a force strike when the opponent is explicitly unprepared for it?

September 2nd 2019, 12:04 am

Meatpants wrote:

O-Siri wrote:A minute isn't a stomp, or Maul vs Jinn on Tatooine is a stomp. And it depends on the environment or if Obi-Wan will stand his ground or stick and move. In a confined environment, they should be able to break him in good time yeah as Anakin surely would have.

Well to clarify, the Tatooine duel was evenly matched right until the end, it wasn't one-sided; whereas Kenobi vs Yoda/Sidious with lethal intent in sabers would be for sure. Regardless of what "stomp" means, you said "I'm sure they'ed find his defense a bitch to crack as well." In reference to pure sabers, which is what I'm contending with. The fight would be one-sided, and not at all like the Tatooine duel.

And that I can agree with which was my point all along. Anakin was forcing Kenobi to give ground the entire time and surely would have won on the small floating platform where there was no more ground to give(yes Kenobi did also strike back and get some hits in but then again there are plenty of examples of inferior fighters scoring hits on their betters in their most desperate hour, most notably Vader vs ESB Luke).

The big thing in Kenobi's favor is his focus on defense which was instrumental in prolonging the fight and most importantly not going toe-to-toe with a superior opponent, as opposed to something like Maul vs Sidious where his main style is offensive so if he can't put his foe down quickly he isn't going to last long against a superior fighter, or Dooku vs Yoda where Dooku is more balanced in offense and defense so he can last a little longer than Maul but still lose in relatively good time because he's not only defending but also actively trying to counterattack.

Yoda/Sidious vs Kenobi would probably play out like Zannah vs Sarro Xaj. He can probably hold his own with maximum strain until he is backed into a corner where they would they could finish him with some effort but not much difficulty.

September 2nd 2019, 12:10 am

Kenobi was also intimately familar with Anakin's style, not to mention MF Vader wasn't operating at a full tier 9 capacity, lacking the mental aspect. Strip Kenobi of an intimate familiarity of his opponent's style along with giving his opponent the mental aspect Vader lacked, and you're getting a comfortable victory from a fully operational tier 9 opponent.

September 2nd 2019, 12:16 am

Meatpants wrote:Kenobi was also intimately familar with Anakin's style, not to mention MF Vader wasn't operating at a full tier 9 capacity, lacking the mental aspect. Strip Kenobi of an intimate familiarity of his opponent's style along with giving his opponent the mental aspect Vader lacked, and you're getting a comfortable victory from a fully operational tier 9 opponent.

Gillard says that Vader was effectively a tier 9, explicitly making note of his mental condition

September 2nd 2019, 12:21 am

I didn't say he wasn't. But he's not a full tier 9 fighter either.

September 2nd 2019, 2:56 pm

@O-Siri

That's not what I said: I said Sidious and Yoda are incapable of stomping Kenobi not that they wouldn't be able to penetrate his defenses.

Saying that Yoda or Sidious can breach Kenobi's defences on occasion doesn't really address my point. You can debate semantics all you want and yeah my response was poorly phrased but your claim is that if we placed Yoda or Sidious in MF Vader's position they wouldn't do much better against Kenobi than Anakin which I don't agree with. If Dooku can move fast enough to remove Kenobi from the fight with TK instantly while in a disadvantageous position with most of his reserves gone I very much doubt Sidious or Yoda are going to sweat over breaking Kenobi's guard quickly making his claim:

I said Sidious and Yoda are incapable of stomping Kenobi not that they wouldn't be able to penetrate his defenses.

False.

As for Dooku being drained, you are relying on the outlier(note I said outlier not contradictory) novelization, which is the only major source that really emphasizes Dooku's exhaustion (and no *tired* isn't the same thing) and Dooku's weakness to strength.

The idea that the novel is an outlier is so far unsubstantiated and until you substantiate it this claim doesn't mean much.

And in that version, he needed to take advantage of their distraction with the droids to incapacitate the duo:

There is no indication Dooku "needed to take advantage of their distraction". This is completely made up and not substantiated in the text. Dooku choosing to do something and needing to are not the same thing.

This is a low showing for Anakin too not just Kenobi, as he was sent flying with his attention on Dooku and I'm sure no one is going to argue a drained Dooku is >>> Angry Anakin+Kenobi, especially when Anakin was pressing his advantage not moments before no matter which version you go by.

So now you're dismissing this as a low showing because Anakin like Kenobi is fallible? Anyway, Kilius please enlighten me on why the showing indicates "drained Dooku is >>> Angry Anakin+Kenobi".

September 2nd 2019, 3:00 pm

LOTL wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

Your usage of the term "break through defenses" is pretty funny. I wonder why you don't extend the term "breaking of defenses" to Anakin being kicked by Dooku across a considerable distance? Why should a physical strike not be considered when you consider a force strike when the opponent is explicitly unprepared for it?

Underlined: Funnily enough, I do.

Bolded: Baseless claims to suit a Kenobi wank agenda. We both know that in that fight Dooku demonstrated he was far above Kenobi. Mustafar Vader hindered or not? - Page 2 228124001

Mustafar Vader hindered or not? - Page 2 228124001

September 2nd 2019, 5:55 pm

NotAA3 wrote:

LOTL wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

Your usage of the term "break through defenses" is pretty funny. I wonder why you don't extend the term "breaking of defenses" to Anakin being kicked by Dooku across a considerable distance? Why should a physical strike not be considered when you consider a force strike when the opponent is explicitly unprepared for it?

Underlined: Funnily enough, I do.

Bolded: Baseless claims to suit a Kenobi wank agenda. We both know that in that fight Dooku demonstrated he was far above Kenobi.

Is this debating or some kind of cathartic treatment prescribed by your shrink that suggests you to lay out sentences or phrases that make you feel better by typing them on the screen to be seen?

September 2nd 2019, 6:02 pm

I sense a great disturbance in the salt, as if a HP and LOTL suddenly cried out in salt, and then were salty.

September 3rd 2019, 12:03 pm

LOTL wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:

LOTL wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, I'm sure Sidious-tier Anakin won't be able to break through Kenobi's defences despite Dooku doing so while in a bad position with most of his reserves drained.

Your usage of the term "break through defenses" is pretty funny. I wonder why you don't extend the term "breaking of defenses" to Anakin being kicked by Dooku across a considerable distance? Why should a physical strike not be considered when you consider a force strike when the opponent is explicitly unprepared for it?

Underlined: Funnily enough, I do.

Bolded: Baseless claims to suit a Kenobi wank agenda. We both know that in that fight Dooku demonstrated he was far above Kenobi.

Is this debating or some kind of cathartic treatment prescribed by your shrink that suggests you to lay out sentences or phrases that make you feel better by typing them on the screen to be seen?

Concession accepted. Come back when you have a real response.