Jaina Solo vs Darth Bane

@LSDMB

Yeah, the Kaan issue is probably settled. You should post the quote in case you get it.

On the other question though

I think we all tacitly accept a sort of Star Wars/Dragon Ball type logic when it comes to the scale of force abilities and how they are applied. So take Maul for example and the telekinetic feats Maul has and the scale that those feats are on, or the feats of someone like Sidious. Now if Maul were to dodge a force push from Sidious that would otherwise overwhelm his defenses, it would be kind of weird to expect that force push to carry on and tear a mile long canyon in the environment behind Maul.

Like if you take at 100% face value the quote that suggests Yoda had some level of difficulty reflecting Dooku's lightning, when Dooku deflects that away from itself it only causes a minor explosion in the room, clearly not something of enough power to give someone like Yoda any trouble, or even someone like massively preprime Kyle Katarn based on a feat against Jerec, yet obviously the lightning contains more power of a certain regard than the damage it causes to the environment would have.

The problem here is that the canon material conflicts with the Legends ones. Basically in any material under Lucas's supervision like the movies novels etc. you have characters that are ridiculously weak. That is how he designed them. Thus the Yoda that struggles with Dooku's lightning is incapable of doing more than pulling up that pillar and so is the Sidious that pushes Maul

But in Legends not under Lucas that is another story completely. Obi Wan's speed feat, the one where he moves faster than anybody in history has him being able to spontaneously combust anybody he touches and perceive rainfall in a storm as slow motion. You have Anakin whose force pushes are like bombs( maybe IIRC), you have Maul whose scream at nobody in particular can cause massive environmental damage, heck you have the OCW where your entire paradigm is wrong.

Heck, remember Maul force pushing Obi Wan in TCW?

I can probably cite more examples and I am sure there are many more.

On the topic of Revan vs Vitiate, you know that those lightning bolts weren't at full power. I don't think Vitiate meant to overwhelm Revan with those, or at least, he had no way of knowing. That is ignoring that lightning in general is concentrated power, not diffused power so the side impact that it produces, the collateral damage is obviously going to be much lesser because it is basically the same energy but concentrated. That is why it is so easy to deflect tk but very hard to deflect lightning. Because the energy that tk produces gives much more collateral damage than lightning. Thus the intensity that the other guy gets is much lesser. Even so I agree that it should cause massive damage but the examples you cite are not enough. Maybe there are others?

On the topic of Bane, on Ambria he unleashed his power in a massive rage induced state. He would obviously be going at maximum intensity and he did produce considerable environmental damage. Your argument is all good but it doesn't address that. Bane literally went for an all out assault on the environment at maximum and having the highest intensity. He even achieved considerable damage. Your examples mainly are based on force users attacking each other, this is literally the embodiment of what I was talking about

LOTL wrote:The problem here is that the canon material conflicts with the Legends ones. Basically in any material under Lucas's supervision like the movies novels etc. you have characters that are ridiculously weak. That is how he designed them. Thus the Yoda that struggles with Dooku's lightning is incapable of doing more than pulling up that pillar and so is the Sidious that pushes Maul

But in Legends not under Lucas that is another story completely. Obi Wan's speed feat, the one where he moves faster than anybody in history has him being able to spontaneously combust anybody he touches and perceive rainfall in a storm as slow motion. You have Anakin whose force pushes are like bombs( maybe IIRC), you have Maul whose scream at nobody in particular can cause massive environmental damage, heck you have the OCW where your entire paradigm is wrong.

Heck, remember Maul force pushing Obi Wan in TCW?

I can probably cite more examples and I am sure there are many more.

On the topic of Revan vs Vitiate, you know that those lightning bolts weren't at full power. I don't think Vitiate meant to overwhelm Revan with those, or at least, he had no way of knowing. That is ignoring that lightning in general is concentrated power, not diffused power so the side impact that it produces, the collateral damage is obviously going to be much lesser because it is basically the same energy but concentrated. That is why it is so easy to deflect tk but very hard to deflect lightning. Because the energy that tk produces gives much more collateral damage than lightning. Thus the intensity that the other guy gets is much lesser. Even so I agree that it should cause massive damage but the examples you cite are not enough. Maybe there are others?

On the topic of Bane, on Ambria he unleashed his power in a massive rage induced state. He would obviously be going at maximum intensity and he did produce considerable environmental damage. Your argument is all good but it doesn't address that. Bane literally went for an all out assault on the environment at maximum and having the highest intensity. He even achieved considerable damage. Your examples mainly are based on force users attacking each other, this is literally the embodiment of what I was talking about

Well again at the end of the day I just don't think it's a consistent thing, as you noted it varies between mediums, and that you even conceded that even if you don't entirely agree with the Vitiate example it still is less what you would reasonably expect it to be. There probably are other examples, I just don't particularly feel like researching them.

At the end of the day though I don't reasonably expect authors to be consistent with this kind of thing. They tend to be more consistent in their portrayals of when abilities are actually intentionally used for a purpose, so I'd expect them to be more consistent on how they portray a force attack's efficacy against another force user, or if they're actively attempting to destroy the environment.

I also think there's a matter of focus that is involved in the power. I don't think Bane throwing an orbalisk induced tantrum is going to have remotely the same effect as him actively concentrating intentionally seeking to fuck shit up with his powers. One of the things about the firestorm on Ruusan is that it was being actively and intentionally propagated around the planet.

Like if Ziost Vitiate randomly threw a tantrum and just started throwing energy or draining shit around him, I wouldn't expect it to have remotely the same scope of effect as him intentionally and deliberately seeking to kill everything on Ziost.

You see, in general I am quite sure that the number of examples supporting my case are more but this is basically useless unless you actually tabulate and compare them, something only Ant can do.

True, but on the other hand, a rage induced state gives access to more raw power. The only difference is that here the power is diffused and distributed. He is still unleashing the same amount of power, the same amount of energy, but the only thing is that he isn't concentrating it to a specific target.

Which brings us to square one-the target is basically everything both times. If he had to beat an enemy, yeah, I'd say that that would make a considerable difference, but he simply has to unleash his energy everywhere( unless you somehow think that he has lesser energy than before, that is contradicted by basically everything in the lore), then the stipulations remain the same. Yes, Vitiate would be able to do so, if he had the power to do so in telekinesis( but in the event, he used a variant of drain that obviously requires mastery and concentration) but he doesn't.

But that is predicated on the assumption that that point is valid so leave that aside. It also has to have us going too deep into semantics that are inconsistent.

My main concern is that Bane in the Bane trilogy is simply not portrayed as a planet leveling god. True, you might go to the PT era saying that they are inconsistent too, but they are under many authors and continuities. In this case it is one author, one continuity, one series. Basically a massive novel made into 3 parts.

There is also the proposition-early ROT Bane>Being able to level the surface of a planet. Yet, we know Bane's limit-one duel+temple=Bane's complete force reserves. Yeah, he went on to grow, but I certainly don't see him growing beyond being amped by a nexus that is much more powerful than a planet nexus that causes noticeable hindrance to the likes of AoTC Obi Wan and FOTJ Jaina

Even if one assumes that he can replicate the temple feat under normal circumstances( at best), you have him+2 Orbalisks above razing a planet? Note that Bane drew the power from both himself and the orbalisks

Are two Orbalisks enough to make up the difference enough to make him planetary level from just building level? Do orbalisks contain that much power? In that case Vitiate>>Revan>>>>Malak>>>>>>Nadd etc. The inconsistencies there?

Moreover, you also propose DoE Bane to be vastly beyond this version of Bane meaning he is vastly beyond leveling the surface of a planet. Yet, he is quickly drained by creating an aura of the dark side to drain that is 20 m or so wide? You might say that they are two different powers but the fact that that exposes Bane's limits is something that that cannot explain. Also note that it is his force reserves being drained, to be replenished by the temple. Even if it is significantly more difficult to do so, it still is his force energy ultimately that comes into play and that doesn't seem anywhere above building level, let alone planetary.

Again, I am just about exploring the issue and the arguments. Seems a bit of a stretch for Bane to be planetary level, but you never know really. Brings out a lot of things that the community in general needs to address

Darth Bane has both better feats and more search results on google.

Jaina.

DeadlyJedi wrote:

LSDMB wrote:Well I mean, a distracted and injured Caedus ragdolled Jaina in invincible, and she had to use her full strength into breaking Jacen's force choke, and it's not like he was using his full power to choke a non-force sensitive, so trying to compare Jaina in the Force to Caedus doesn't really make any sense.

As far as the dueling stuff, beating fodder isn't exactly beneath Bane's paygrade even as of POD, and Jaina is obviously not the combat equal of Luke Skywalker. That accolade reminds me somewhat of Anoon Bondara's accolade of having "unparalleled" dueling ability when he obviously didn't.

But Jaina is above Plagueis according to Evannova  ;)

Oh hell no.

A nat vs a spider.

Nat wins. Seems legit