Luke Skywalker (The Empire Strikes Back) vs. Asajj Ventress (Clone Wars)

Luke enters the carbonite chambers on Bespin, but instead of facing Darth Vader, he faces Asajj Ventress as of the early stages of her tutelage under Count Dooku. Who wins?

Ventress overwhelms imo.

ESB Luke was a threat to Vader. Asajj is not.

Lol, ESB Luke wasn't a threat to Vader. Guy could barely lift rocks and know how to swing a saber. Vader who did not even put any effort fighting Luke easily destroyed him. Ventress should win easily against Luke.

Asajj laughs.

Asajj stomps pretty easily.

Ventress

Luke.

Ventress slaughters. Being able to hold your own against TCW Anakin and Obi Wan >> Getting shitstomped by ESB Vader.

He didn't get shitstomped tho

He was toying, and Luke barely survived. ESB Luke is little more than fodder.

I've posted it before but I'll post it again.



When they fought, [Vader] had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.


The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.


Vader smiled into the darkness surrounding him. Obi-Wan had not told Luke that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. Luke's anger at the man who had slain his teacher had been potent, had allowed the dark side to claim him. If Vader hadn't broken that anger with fear and confusion by telling the boy he was his father, Luke could have defeated him.


Star Wars: Shadow of the Empire - Steve Perry

ESB Luke is actually pretty impressive. Giving Vader a good fight, besting Kharys [who was a master of [Juyo] in her own element while fighting of her mind games -- besting Orman Tagged who, was stated to be "very strong" in the Force and was a good enough telekinetic to hurl stalagmites that was measured in tons. This was all before he trained with Yoda and further honed his skills tremendously.

Honestly, Vader showing vs ESB Luke isn't all that bad once you consider Luke's unrivaled intrinsic aptitude and his Showings for being nothing more than a neophyte with rudimentary training in the Force and Lightsaber combat

Praxis wrote:I've posted it before but I'll post it again.



When they fought, [Vader] had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.


The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.


Vader smiled into the darkness surrounding him. Obi-Wan had not told Luke that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. Luke's anger at the man who had slain his teacher had been potent, had allowed the dark side to claim him. If Vader hadn't broken that anger with fear and confusion by telling the boy he was his father, Luke could have defeated him.


Star Wars: Shadow of the Empire - Steve Perry

the issue is that book also implies that ESB Luke was greater than the PT Jedi that are extinct. Do you honestly take that seriously?

This quote?

A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.

Yeah no, nothing in this definitively implies that Luke is greater than the PT jedi.

Deronn_Solo wrote:ESB Luke is actually pretty impressive. Giving Vader a good fight, besting Kharys [who was a master of [Juyo] in her own element while fighting of her mind games -- besting Orman Tagged who, was stated to be "very strong" in the Force and was a good enough telekinetic to hurl stalagmites that was measured in tons. This was all before he trained with Yoda and further honed his skills tremendously.

Honestly, Vader showing vs ESB Luke isn't all that bad once you consider Luke's unrivaled intrinsic aptitude and his Showings for being nothing more than a neophyte with rudimentary training in the Force and Lightsaber combat

Luke by this time has beaten Baron Orman Tagge, a master duelist (twice), and Kharys, the OG secret apprentice of Vader. While these events happened in the old Marvel Comics, which are mostly considered non-canon, both Kharys' and Tagge's stories are referenced in later material.

Luke beat both these combatants prior to his training under Yoda. After the training, Luke performed remarkably well against Vader, enough for Vader to consider Luke to be equal to, or possibly greater than Anakin (in Shadows of the Empire). In SotE, Vader muses on the Bespin duel, making it clear he had been trying to defeat Luke, not simply toying with him. To paraphrase Vader, "if Luke was easy to defeat, he wasn't worth recruiting." Yet we know Luke impressed Vader. He even briefly got the better of him on the carbon freezing platform. Not to mention the hit on Vader's shoulder toward the end of the duel.

ESB Luke is sorely underestimated. Was he Vader's equal? No. But he was still a threat to Vader, who considered ESB Luke>=Anakin. If Vader's scaling is accurate, I see no reason ESB Luke should lose to Asajj, who Anakin has repeatedly bested.

Did you just say ESB Luke>Anakin???

KingofBlades wrote:Did you just say ESB Luke>Anakin???

asajj destroys ESB luke .
RoTJ luke beats her though .
even AoTC anakin or TPM obi wan would beat ESB luke ...

KingofBlades wrote:Did you just say ESB Luke>Anakin???

I said Vader estimates Luke to be equal to or greater than Anakin. Remember, Vader personally has a low opinion of Anakin, so take this character statement with a grain of salt.

The way I see it, Vader believes Luke to be nearly equal to Anakin. While he lowballs his former self, this still means Vader believes Luke could challenge the same foes that Anakin formerly defeated. Therefore, while Luke is not equal to Anakin in actuality, the implication is that Luke should be above most of Anakin's foes.

Lmao ESB Luke is nowhere even remotely close to peak Anakin. RotS Anakin curbstomps Luke into the ground. ESB Luke is significantly weaker than old ben Kenobi who is himself below his peak RotS self. Ventress challenging tcw kenobi puts her above Luke.

KingofBlades wrote:Lmao ESB Luke is nowhere even remotely close to peak Anakin. RotS Anakin curbstomps Luke into the ground. ESB Luke is significantly weaker than old ben Kenobi who is himself below his peak RotS self. Ventress challenging tcw kenobi puts her above Luke.

Again, I am not claiming ESB Luke=Peak Anakin. I straight up said that Luke is not Anakin's equal. 

Shadows of the Empire pages 47&48 wrote:He [Vader] would never go back to what he had been mentally. Weak, foolish, idealistic. Anakin had been much like Luke Skywalker was now. Mere . . . potential. 
Yes, the Force was strong in Luke, perhaps even stronger than it had been in Anakin. But the boy needed to embrace the dark side, to learn where the real power was, to achieve his true promise. If he did not, the Emperor would destroy Luke.
Vader did not want that. 
When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand. 
The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son. 

So to make my points perfectly clear:

1. Anakin is greater than Luke. This is pretty much irrelevant, however, because...

2. Vader lowballs Anakin. It's something we've known for years. Vader sees Anakin as weak. It's Vader's way of justifying his continued commitment to the dark side. Because to admit otherwise would be to admit that his fall to the dark side had ultimately been pointless. That said...

3. Vader knows Anakin was at least strong enough to beat Asajj Ventress, since he did it on multiple occasions when he was still Anakin. Just because Vader believes Anakin was weak, this doesn't mean he would believe Anakin is inferior to the likes of Asajj Ventress. After all, he, as Anakin, regularly faced off against, and consistently defeated, Ventress. Which brings us back to Luke... 

4. Vader believes Luke is equal to or greater than Anakin. Vader is likely not referring to what many people consider to be "peak" Anakin, because "peak" Anakin is Anakin using the dark side. Since this entire quoted passage is about the dark side being "true power", I doubt he'd be comparing Luke's light side power to Anakin's dark side power. Instead, it's far more likely he's comparing Luke to Anakin's standard performance as a Jedi. No "Zonakin," no "Knightfall Anakin," just plain old Jedi Anakin. With this in mind...

5. If Vader believes Luke is equal to or greater than Anakin, and Vader knows Anakin was greater than Asajj, then the implication would logically be that Luke is greater than Asajj. Where Luke truly places in comparison to Anakin isn't really relevant here. We have a character who has fought both Luke and Asajj, claiming that Luke is equal to or greater than a character he knows for a fact is stronger than Asajj. At the very least, this should indicate that Luke is in the same league as Ventress, making this a close fight, if not a stomp in Luke's favor. Either way, with Vader making this comparison, I see no way to legitimately state that Ventress would stomp Luke. 

Now, to address another point you brought up, where's your definitive proof that ANH Ben is greater than ESB Luke? Because the way I see it, Luke performed far better against Vader than Ben did. Luke twice managed to get the better of Vader, when he knocked him from the carbon freezing platform and when he scored a hit on Vader's shoulder. We have a quote that I posted above where Vader concedes to Luke being a "worthy opponent," who "strongly" opposed him. 

And for sources, don't give me any of Luke's speculation. Luke at the time of ANH had no way of actually gauging how powerful Ben was before Ben ultimately died, and Luke holds Ben in the same regard as he holds Yoda. Luke has a heavy bias when it comes to comparing himself to Ben. I'm not aware of any out-of-universe accolades that indicate Ben>ESB Luke. If anything, I think I recall one that indicates the exact opposite, but I'm going to have to dig through some videos to find it (something about the fight choreography in the Star Wars movies getting better from one to the next to indicate the skill level of the combatants increasing, or some such).

Edit: Found the accolade I was looking for. 

There's an interview with George Lucas that has been edited into this special. at 0:55, you can hear Lucas start a statement, about how, "In IV, V, and VI, I kept improving the swordfighting." The quote is later finished at 9:45, "I kept improving the swordfighting. Faster, and more intense, as Luke became more proficient in the art of swordfighting." Taken together, you see that Lucas improved the swordfighting over the course of all three movies, to show Luke growing more proficient as a duelist. This would imply that Luke's swordfighting in V is more proficient than the swordfighting we see in IV, due to it being "faster, and more intense." It's a bit of a shaky accolade, but it's more than I've seen to indicate Ben>ESB Luke.

GL says Ben Kenobi is significantly more powerful in the force.