Re: Darth Krayt vs Exar Kun

November 15th 2020, 3:05 am

Seturna wrote:Exar Kun wins.

Glad u changed your mind hahaha

November 15th 2020, 11:31 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

This will likely be my last response, since there is a bigger and more important battle that needs my attention, but you seem to have missed the point on more than one of my arguments, so I felt it prudent to set the matter straight for those reading.

You're missing the biggest difference, that being that Chee is saying Sheev cannot be the most powerful Sith in Star Wars period based on those quotes. He's unleashing an entire plethora of reasons as to why those quotes don't apply in that way and are not debate-enders when sourced. Which doesn't at all necessitate the leap in logic you're making.

You're so close to getting my point it's painful. You're right; Chee is saying Sidious isn't the definitive most powerful Sith based on his supremacy quotes. But what you seem to fail to grasp is that that for the first and second scans, Sidious is not the center of discussion. In the first scan, the question revolves around a general debate over who's the most powerful sith ever, and whether or not a sourcebook quote has the power to end said debate. Chee responds that there is always room for interpretation and then offers up the relevant confounding variables at play with a Sidious supremacy quote. But this is only because the person used Sidious as an example. If Vitiate's name had been offered, Chee would have told us the variables present in Vitiate's supremacy quotes. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that Chee has never commented on the subjectivity of Vitiate's, or Yoda's or Anakin Skywalker's supremacy quotes doesn't mean the logic Chee used for Sidious' quotes don't apply to them. Chee only ever answers Sidious questions because we versus debaters only ever ask about Sidious' quotes. If someone asked Chee if Yoda's supremacy quotes are absolute, he'd say it's subjective just like he does with Sidious. To pretend otherwise is willful ignorance. Why do I know this? Look at the second scan you provided lol. Chee is agreeing with someone else's post. Here's the text:

I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are
the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account So it
may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and
whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by
definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make
such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters. Of course, I could be wrong though.

Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes.
With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are
for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinato Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even
the use of this ranking system is limīted because it was only the major characters from the prequel
films that he ranked, We never expanded on that ranking system.
The person chee is agreeing with is in blue, with red denoting chee's post. Now tell me; in either the person's post or Chee's response to it, where is Sidious mentioned? I'll answer for you. Nowhere. The person says and I quote, "there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful" as well as "'Most powerful' would have lots of variables to take into account". These statements are explicitly general in nature, with the logic being used both directly and implicitly to say ALL supremacy quotes are subjective. Chee then agrees, I repeat AGREES with this person and then goes onto to reaffirm the posters theory that, "us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes." Again, an explicitly general statement. I could theoretically concede the meaning of the first scan and my argument would still stand. The explicit generality of both the forum user's and Chee's posts tells us without a shadow of a doubt that Chee thinks all supremacy quotes are subjective, not just Sidious'. There isn't really anything else to say. If you want to appeal to Chee to cast doubt on Sidious' supremacy quotes, you can't use any other supremacy quotes either.

[size=33]Ah so you differ from the Ant claim that Chee's involvement makes something undeniably nearly word of God tier Legends canon?[/size]

That is more or less correct, yes.

[size=33]He has done exactly that before, seemingly at whim:[/size]

If you read the next paragraph of mine that you cite in your post, you'll see why that isn't indicative of Chee rewriting canon at will.

Given the Databank states outright that Kun's own power accomplished the ritual. The power Kun gained from the drain would apply to the last moments of Kun's physical form in TotJ.

I didn't say this so I'll just assume you incorrectly included it with the portion of my post that you quoted. Now, if the ritual is simultaneously making Kun a spirit and increasing his power, it's entirely possible that Kun doesn't receive the power until he becomes a spirit. Admittedly the exact mechanics are unknown, but that ambiguity means it can't be used to counter the Malak quote.

[size=33]The only quotes you have that might be arguably applicable to Kun are the Sheev ones. Maul's are easily dismissable and Malak's has been buried under the avalanche of its own problems. Not to mention it has been thrown under the bus by it own author. The Sidious accolades are also far from statements of fact that are insurmountable. Whenever a claim by any single source is made, especially is large as one such as that, it has to be able to conform with pre-established lore. Given the fact that Exar Kun as a spirit is indisputably able to dish it out with a Luke stronger than the one amplified by Force Harmony that defeated DE Sheev, and a plethora of equally, if not higher, canon sources such as starwars.com have Kun up with those later incarnations of Sheev.[/size]

[size=33]So it's entirely plausible that Kun's simply exempt by virtue of these facts and that said statements aren't some power of retcon.[/size]

Sidious' supremacy quotes are only not binding in a methodology where all supremacy aren't binding. If you treat Kun's accolades as binding over the ancient sith, then Sidious' bind Kun. I agree that there must be harmonization between new and old sources, and that's what I'm doing by positing growth after abandoning his body. I have no issue with JA Kun being with Sidious, but TotJ Physical Kun has to be below Malak if we're operating under a methodology where quotes are used. Also I have been told that Maul possesses supremacy quotes that don't originate from DK, but I don't have them on me so I'll drop that point for now.

[size=33]You've provided nothing for Krayt so far that even begins to show Krayt ragdolling. By either the use of TotJ Kun's feats and scaling or an appeal to JA Kun, Exar Kun wins outright. This is a losing battle, but not for me.[/size]

[size=33]Exar Kun stomps by showings and scaling.[/size]

My contention is regarding Krayt vs Physical TotJ Kun. I don't care if spirit Kun or your new pet Exar Durron beats Krayt. And Krayt beats Physical TotJ Kun via superiority to Muur who has parity to RotS Sidious.

November 16th 2020, 2:44 pm

Krayt stomps the sub Malak guy.