SoR Revan vs KotET Outlander

1.Sabers
2.Force
3. All out

The Outlander.

Revan.

G o d l a n d e r

The Outlander

Reasons folks?

Revan

Outlander of course.

Outlander, obviously.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Reasons folks?

I can go in-depth if necessary but this feat alone is above anything I've seen Revan do, and this was barely an hour or so after she unleashed her full power, if that. She also did this while a fair distance from Nathema, as pictured below.





She also scales massively above spirit Valkorion and ragdolled KOTET Arcann to the point that she one-shot him. Per scaling, the Outlander > unchained Vaylin > SoR Revan.

Outlander

Revan.

I'm curious to hear people's reasons for saying Revan wins.

None that I haven’t already discussed with you on CV. Note that the HoT is not canonically the Outlander, and that Sateles battle meditation was amping the final strike team and that the Telple of Sacrifice had weakened Revan already. Also, Light Revan was helping the team, who would’ve been shitstomped if it weren’t for him.

@BreakofDawn They both get fairly similar scaling (Ziost, Vivicar ect), it's Revan's durability that seals the deal for me personally.

^

@IdrisianGraecus

Note that the HoT is not canonically the Outlander,

Sorry, but that's a poor argument. If we're referring to non-Force users, it basically means that Revan himself, Darth Arkous, Darth Serevin/Commander Jensyn, Arcann, chained Vaylin, unchained Vaylin, Valkorion himself, and numerous other ridiculously powerful  characters somehow failed to kill a non-Force user. At the very least, the Outlander is one of the four Force users, and nearly every piece of storytelling leading up to that point indicates that the HoT is the Outlander.

and that Sateles battle meditation was amping the final strike team

Which also would have been plausibly weaker due to her trying to draw upon the light side whilst on one of the most potent dark side nexuses in the galaxy. 

and that the Temple of Sacrifice had weakened Revan already.

Based on? Revan was holding his body together through sheer willpower, so any physical damage it took wouldn't have particularly weakened him to a noticeable degree. 

Also, Light Revan was helping the team, who would’ve been shitstomped if it weren’t for him.

How? Light Revan's help throughout the fight boiled down to lifting them to higher platforms and encouraging onwards. Also, basis for them being "shitstomped"? After they'd fought through a small army, Revan retreated from them and called in HK (whose ability to fight off 8 of the most powerful and skilled beings in the galaxy at once is pretty inconsistent but I'll get into that another time) to cover his retreat. 

Plus, going back to the "weakened" argument, if anyone was weakened it would be the protagonist. They fought through a small army, had to contend with HK, took on Revan, had to tank the machine core's bursts of energy and its explosion, and then almost immediately after go and face Revan again.

@DC77 I still don't see how Revan scales off the Ziost feat, to be honest. Plus, his durability has limits. I don't doubt for a second that unchained Vaylin or the Outlander could beat him considering the latter's superior skill and both of them being simply more powerful. It certainly wouldn't be easy, but they'd eventually overwhelm him.

The HoT isn’t the only force user, your nexus argument falls apart if the Wrath, or Nox was the Outlander. Light Revan freeing members of the second strike team was what enabled them to win. I can’t delve into an actual argument based on the fact that I haven’t a computer, seeing as I’m on vacation.

@BreakofDawn: What scales the Outlander above Vaylin's raw telekinetic feats? Obviously their powers are close enough that Vaylin couldn't defeat the Outlander purely with the Force, but considering both Vaylin's blatant lack of mastery and that Force barriers are disproportionately potent (i.e. TCSWE and other sources state that, on average, you need a group of powerful Force users to break the Force barrier of a single Force user), that doesn't necessarily peg the Outlander even on her tier.

@IdrisianGraecus: No worries.

Which also would have been plausibly weaker due to her trying to draw upon the light side whilst on one of the most potent dark side nexuses in the galaxy.

Yet the Battle Meditation was still said to have "greatly increased" everyone's combat efficiency and powers despite that.

Based on? Revan was holding his body together through sheer willpower, so any physical damage it took wouldn't have particularly weakened him to a noticeable degree.

Obviously the more damage Revan takes to his body, the more difficult it is to maintain.

Also, basis for them being "shitstomped"? After they'd fought through a small army, Revan retreated from them and called in HK (whose ability to fight off 8 of the most powerful and skilled beings in the galaxy at once is pretty inconsistent but I'll get into that another time) to cover his retreat.

Plus, going back to the "weakened" argument, if anyone was weakened it would be the protagonist. They fought through a small army, had to contend with HK, took on Revan, had to tank the machine core's bursts of energy and its explosion, and then almost immediately after go and face Revan again.

He's referring to the second strike team on the Forgotten Terrace.

Thanks, Ant.

Also, something interesting to consider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WQYoTHI5Mw&t=4m55s -- Vaylin hurls a blast of Force energy at Arcann, but he dodges it. Twice! Her lack of mastery, coupled with Arcann's skill, makes it blatantly difficult for her to meaningfully integrate her powers in combat against a high-level Force user. Note that while that's chained Vaylin, I don't see why her mastery and know-how should have significantly increased upon gaining newfound power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAm4yhNPQBo&t=1m06s -- And we've seen the Outlander dodge Arcann's attacks, which should be even more difficult to do given Arcann's far greater mastery and whatnot.

Going off this idea that the Outlander's a supremely accomplished Force user and super skilled in lightsaber combat, it's not hard to envision how he could consistently undermine and defeat a more powerful but terribly volatile and explicitly poorly trained combatant in Vaylin.

---

Instead of replying, Senya braced herself for the coming charge, quietly confident in her own skills. They'd clashed once before, and Senya had prevailed: her daughter might be stronger in the Force, but Senya had spent decades mastering the art of hand-to-hand combat. If Vaylin wanted to fight her, the outcome was inevitable.

---

She can't defeat me in hand-to-hand combat, but she could still kill me anytime she likes. She's been toying with me this whole time.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is referring to Vaylin between KOTFE and KOTET. Key points to note -- Senya observes that Vaylin is far less skilled than her, that if Vaylin engages her in an actual duel then Vaylin would lose, but that Vaylin could dust her easily with the Force. The Outlander just needs to be powerful enough to avoid Vaylin having a totally dominant advantage in the Force for his infinitely superior fighting abilities to plausibly push her back and win the day.

Outlander and Hero of Tython should be the only characters that I cannot comment about. Time for me to read the arguements.

Going to cover this briefly as I have a lot to do right now.

@IdrisianGraecus 

The HoT isn’t the only force user, your nexus argument falls apart if the Wrath, or Nox was the Outlander. Light Revan freeing members of the second strike team was what enabled them to win. I can’t delve into an actual argument based on the fact that I haven’t a computer, seeing as I’m on vacation.

You're right, he's not. However, every single reference to KOTFE, KOTET and beyond barring (half of) one portrays the HoT as the Outlander, all of which are official sources constructed by Bioware. EDIT: Just counted and there have been about 9 trailers released since KOTFE. Of those, 8 and a half have featured the Outlander as the HoT, and only half of one (played from the Imperial side) suggests the Emperor's Wrath is the Outlander. Bioware may have left it vague, but their intent has always been that the Outlander is either (the most portrayed of them) the HoT, or the Emperor's Wrath. Not once is Darth Nox or the Barsen'Thor featured as the Outlander. It's all but confirmed at this point. 


As for the final fight, I never once said that the second strike team > Revan, lol. If anything, I've been arguing the opposite in my discussing how the Outlander would have been both tired and weakened after the ToS. All I'll say is that either Vaylin or the Outlander could do the same, probably with more ease too.

@DarthAnt66 What scales the Outlander above Vaylin's raw telekinetic feats? Obviously their powers are close enough that Vaylin couldn't defeat the Outlander purely with the Force, but considering both Vaylin's blatant lack of mastery and that Force barriers are disproportionately potent (i.e. TCSWE and other sources state that, on average, you need a group of powerful Force users to break the Force barrier of a single Force user), that doesn't necessarily peg the Outlander even on her tier.

They've fought twice. The first time, he forced his way through her barrier when she was emitting enough power that she one-shot both Arcann and Senya and essentially did the same to spirit Valkorion, yet all she could do to the Outlander was knock him back a few steps.  The second fight in the Outlander's mind was a straight up duel. No interference from anyone else, no instability on her part. If anything, she was as focused as possible since she was simply focused on killing the Outlander. He beat and killed her yet again. 

Also, her mastery is incredibly advanced. The Nathema feat alone showed that she's not only able to command her powers with complete control across a vast distance, but also that she's able to use it with enough technical ability to overload generators and cause multiple explosions by simply concentrating. She displays impressive control and mastery of her powers throughout KOTET, actually.

Yet the Battle Meditation was still said to have "greatly increased" everyone's combat efficiency and powers despite that. 

Which I've acknowledged. It still wouldn't be enough to amp a HoT for example who'd just fought through a small army, taken on HK, fought Revan and on top of that been forced to tank the machine core exploding. To use your argument from before, the HoT would have been the MVP of the team, which by being weakened and wounded would have drastically reduced its effectiveness.

Obviously the more damage Revan takes to his body, the more difficult it is to maintain. 

Again, the Outlander also had to tank the machine core exploding in their face, and they don't have the luxury of being able to hold their body together in the same way that Revan does. 

He's referring to the second strike team on the Forgotten Terrace.

Cheers, I wasn't sure.

Also, something interesting to consider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WQYoTHI5Mw&t=4m55s -- Vaylin hurls a blast of Force energy at Arcann, but he dodges it. Twice! Her lack of mastery, coupled with Arcann's skill, makes it blatantly difficult for her to meaningfully integrate her powers in combat against a high-level Force user. Note that while that's chained Vaylin, I don't see why her mastery and know-how should have significantly increased upon gaining newfound power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAm4yhNPQBo&t=1m06s -- And we've seen the Outlander dodge Arcann's attacks, which should be even more difficult to do given Arcann's far greater mastery and whatnot.

Going off this idea that the Outlander's a supremely accomplished Force user and super skilled in lightsaber combat, it's not hard to envision how he could consistently undermine and defeat a more powerful but terribly volatile and explicitly poorly trained combatant in Vaylin.

Alternatively, it's possible that it is exactly as it appeared: a Force user dodging another Force user's attacks. It's like saying Dooku not being able to hit Anakin and Obi-Wan with the ships on Korriban is a low showing for his mastery and training because they dodged it. Chained Vaylin was superior to Arcann in the Force, but not by such a margin that she can ragdoll him. Both times, she missed by mere inches. That's a feat for Arcann, not an anti-feat for Vaylin's mastery. It's actually more of a showing of how advanced her mastery of her power was that she could release short blasts of raw Force energy so accurately that Arcann was forced to dodge and was nearly hit by them more than once. On one such occasion, he would have been had he not turned almost completely to the side. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is referring to Vaylin between KOTFE and KOTET. Key points to note -- Senya observes that Vaylin is far less skilled than her, that if Vaylin engages her in an actual duel then Vaylin would lose, but that Vaylin could dust her easily with the Force.

Right after that quote:


As expected, Vaylin rushed at her with unrestrained fury, the pike becoming a spinning, whirling instrument of death in her nimble hands. Senya parried the initial flurry, redirecting each blow with subtle counters and deflections that allowed her to slow the momentum of Vaylin's charge. Then she switched from defense to offense, retaliating with her own sequence of quick cuts and thrusts meant not to kill, but to drive her daughter back, keeping her off balance and in perpetual retreat. But instead of giving ground, Vaylin countered with another vicious assault, putting Senya on the defensive again. Surprised, the older woman staggered back, ducking to the side as the pike skimmed past her cheek close enough for her to feel the heat of the glowing blade. It clipped the tip of her shoulder, carving a small chunk from her armor.





There's also context to Senya's superiority:


She's stronger now. Faster. More confident. 


But there were still flaws in Vaylin's form. Now that she had measured her opponent, Senya saw subtle imperfections she could exploit. Her daughter leaped over the wall of fire between them and charged again. She was pressing the action, trying to overwhelm Senya and go for the quick kill. On the next pass, Senya let the tip of her lightsaber dip, offering a brief opening. As expected, Vaylin seized on the sudden vulnerability. But Senya was ready; anticipating her daughter's strike she sidestepped the blow and got in close enough to throw an elbow into Vaylin's chest, staggering her back. Vaylin caught her footing a step before she stumbled into the nearby flames. Enraged, she rushed her mother again, redoubling her efforts. Senya continued to feint and bait her opponent, using her own aggression against her to control the battle. She could sense her daughter's frustration mounting as the battle dragged on – her attacks became more desperate, more frenzied. Time and time again Vaylin saw what she thought was an opportunity to end the battle in a single blow, only to have it snatched away at the last instant by her elusive foe. Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin's attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve. "You still fight with too much raw emotion," Senya grunted as she parried another blow, hoping there was still some part of the little girl she had raised inside the savage creature in front of her. "It clouds your mind."



Exact same situation as Obi-Wan versus Grievous, or Mustafar Anakin. Senya exploited Vaylin's aggression and turned it against her. It was discipline, not skill, that was giving Senya the edge. Plus, Vaylin's skills continued to grow after this. By chapter 6 of KOTET, she was stalemating Arcann in saber combat, who is definitely Senya's superior, and it's more than likely that her saber abilities jumped yet again when she unlocked her full power.

The Outlander just needs to be powerful enough to avoid Vaylin having a totally dominant advantage in the Force for his infinitely superior fighting abilities to plausibly push her back and win the day.

They're not infinitely superior. Not even close. Chained Vaylin, while still growing, could stalemate Arcann (who even by this point could give the Outlander a good fight due to his skills). 

Also, one thing to note. Vaylin unlocking her full powers wouldn't have reduced her mastery. Her mental and physical problems were caused by the conditioning that separated her from her full power, essentially making her powers unstable. When she unlocked her full power, she was able to take full control of her powers and displayed it repeatedly, most significantly with her destroying the Nathema facility's generators from orbit.

Can you post the proof of the HoT being the Outlander (videos, etc)? Can’t find any.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Can you post the proof of the HoT being the Outlander (videos, etc)? Can’t find any.

Will post the links in normal text.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USHvcekHnVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTZxrB3RqRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2UP1ffgmDk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOVwOz1EtFw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pNeNiJrpPiY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hyf3suiRI2U
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hyf3suiRI2U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s22W84cSUOw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKod49z3LQg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bb9cmw4k0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAI-yGmHM5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAMl1hmdc6Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-_KcBK1BIQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xpncMnftLrU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ScPjMY6ZutI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAMl1hmdc6Q

Only the last two suggest that the EW is the Outlander, and in both the HoT is heavily featured. The last two can essentially be dismissed as they’re showing the Pub and Imp side comparison, but even if not it narrows it down to those two. There are more I can find given a bit more time (including all of the KOTFE chapter trailers which also use the HoT as the Outlander as well as BTS videos which use the HoT as the Outlander) but these are the ones I’ve been able to find after a short search.