Kyle Katarn vs. Obi Wan

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out
Morals offs
Open plains, 30 meters starting distance

Kenobi solidly.

Kenobi. Mismatch.

Bad matchup, Kenobi wins 10/10.

It’s not an easy fight though, Anakin does markedly better than Dooku did in AotC.

Outcast wrote:It’s not an easy fight though, Anakin does markedly better than Dooku did in AotC.

You’re in the wrong thread

LOL.

Kenobi, relatively good fight

Kenobi.

Kenobi shreds

Kyle is a little below Caedus, ("the duel taxed both men" - sourcebook quote) Kyle had fodder backup and Jacen had some not completely healed wounds. 

The only link between Caedus and the PT era is through a substandard showing with Sing.

This Sing had spent her exile doing sci-fi cocaine in strip clubs.

Caedus also found Katarn to be a threat, as opposed to the other members of the strike team.

You can technically scale RoTS Kenobi >> Ben Kenobi = ANH Vader < ROTJ Vader = ROTJ Luke <<<<<<< GM Luke >> Caedus .

Kenobi, good fight.

@Ziggy:

Kyle is a little below Caedus, ("the duel taxed both men" - sourcebook quote) Kyle had fodder backup and Jacen had some not completely healed wounds.

The quote in question is in reference to Valin and Kyle, who are the subject of the paragraph, not Jacen. Furthermore the "fodder backup" proved themselves to be invaluable, as indicated by the fact that Jacen describes the team's coordination as an issue, yet doesn't seem particularly pressed by the power level of his opposition. Moreover Jacen was winning the fight in a rather decisive fashion so no, Kyle isn't "a little below Jacen".

The only link between Caedus and the PT era is through a substandard showing with Sing.

That occurs before a boost in power on Jacen's part, without even accounting for the obvious fact that Jacen proved himself decisively superior.

This Sing had spent her exile doing sci-fi cocaine in strip clubs.

Cool story bro, come back when you have an official quote saying she declined.

Neither Kyle nor Sing are close to Jacen, deal with it.

OT-Kenobi.

Kenobi

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The quote in question is in reference to Valin and Kyle, who are the subject of the paragraph, not Jacen. 

Jacen isn't the subject here?





Katarn and Valin were two of the first Jedi to confront Jacen Solo - by then the Sith Lord Darth Caedus.  
[full stop] The lightsaber duel taxed both men, until Solo managed to ram Katarn with a speeder. 



All three - Jacen, Valin and Kartarn are mentioned in the paragraph.  However, Solo and Katarn are the clear subject matter in sentence claiming both men were taxed. 

This is more obvious... as the word "until" is used as a preposition describing a change in state for both characters until the time where Kyle is hit with a speeder.  Kyle is removed from the fight via KO and Jacen relieves himself of the strongest opponent.  There is no apparent change in state for Valin in this scenario.

It's simple.  The quote supplements events in the novel.  Jacen can't beat this team through sabers and the duel is taxing him, so he uses the most underhanded tactic possible to rid himself of Kyle, whom he notes as a threat beforehand. 

Furthermore the "fodder backup" proved themselves to be invaluable, as indicated by the fact that Jacen describes the team's coordination as an issue, yet doesn't seem particularly pressed by the power level of his opposition.

Being invaluable against Jacen doesn't preclude them from being fodder.  It just means fodder have the means to be invaluable against Jacen, who as per the quote above, gets gassed from fending off Kyle while sometimes kicking his lesser companions; not even doing any damage perse.  :>

Moreover Jacen was winning the fight in a rather decisive fashion so no, Kyle isn't "a little below Jacen".

He was losing the fight until he force shoved a flying speeder into Kyles back while the latter anticipated a Force push. I give him the benefit of the doubt because Kyle had fodder backup and Jacen's injuries weren't completely healed.  I take into consideration that the wounds wouldn't affect him as much as they do an average Jedi or Sith (they should be amping him) and say Katarn is a little below him. The trifecta of evidence: Authorial intent, In-universe and Out-universe muses all agree. 

That occurs before a boost in power on Jacen's part, without even accounting for the obvious fact that Jacen proved himself decisively superior.

He's actually inferior when it just comes to pure augmentation as a loose proxy for power in that fight.  In fact, the only reason he could compete at all is that he empowered himself from non-fatal injuries dealt to him.  While the final injury he dealt Aurra hindered her ability to stand (dislocated knee).  There are examples of less powerful foes overcoming the odds through skill alone.  For example, the Jedi initiate Scout, featured in Dark Rendevous, is weaker in the force than every single one of her peers. Yet can defeat many with trickery and her unarmed technical skill alone - which is how Jacen gains the advantage over Sing - yet Jacen has spent the recent majority of his life training, unlike Aurra, smoking crack in strip clubs during a decadent exile. 

Also, a boost in power?  Was it relevant?  Was it even real? 

Cool story bro, come back when you have an official quote saying she declined.

I really don't need one.  Especially when everyone else agrees it's obvious she declined, bar you, DarthCaedus77

Neither Kyle nor Sing are close to Jacen, deal with it.

They're both pretty close to him, I'm sorry to say. Prime Aurra might be = or >

@Ziggy:

Just a quick question before I proceed to my response. How many times have you utilised that same gif in a response and how have you not grown bored of it yet?

Jacen isn't the subject here?

Jacen being mentioned doesn't automatically make him the primary point of the quote. Kyle and Valin have been the main subject for the entirety of the statement thus far, it doesn't make sense for the quote to shift gears and all of a sudden start a ramble about Jacen. The paragraph is talking about Valin and Kyle, and how their fight against Jacen went down with focus on them, not Jacen.

This is more obvious... as the word "until" is used as a preposition describing a change in state for both characters until the time where Kyle is hit with a speeder. Kyle is removed from the fight via KO and Jacen relieves himself of the strongest opponent. There is no apparent change in state for Valin in this scenario.

Did you actually read the following passages in the book before making this statement? Kyle is removed from the equation yes, however Jacen's situation immediately worsens. He gets tagged by a blaster bolt and Mithric begins to ramp up the intensity of his assault, bringing Jacen to the point of desperation as his strength slowly begins to slip away.

Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke. And now, as more of his troopers began firing, Horn began deflecting more bolts at him. The imprecise, barely aimed nature of the attacks worked in Horn's favor. The shots were unpredictable and Caedus had to divide his attention be-tween a mad swordsman and a growing number of half-blind snipers.

Valin meanwhile is left deflecting blaster bolts from shitty non force sensitives, which is a remarkable breath of fresh air from engaging a powerful sith lord head to head. Moreover the language in this quote doesn't lead to the conclusion you want it too. The text emphasises that both men are taxed by the engagement until the event we're discussing occurs, after that both men wouldn't be taxed but rather only one of them would be. This assessment works just as well as yours and if we operate under the assumption either is possible, the statement is ambiguous at best, however given the quotes primary focus is on Valin and Kyle I'd wager it's referring to them.

It's simple. The quote supplements events in the novel. Jacen can't beat this team through sabers and the duel is taxing him, so he uses the most underhanded tactic possible to rid himself of Kyle, whom he notes as a threat beforehand.

I'm not sure why Jacen taking advantage of an opportune moment to rid himself of his most powerful enemy is of relevance, any combatant would likely do the same under similar circumstances. Moreover Kyle being a threat doesn't necessitate he be in Jacen's ballpark as a combatant, nor does it lend any credibility to your point about Jacen being taxed by the duel. To cap things off, where's your evidence Jacen was losing the duel? Does it even exist?

Being invaluable against Jacen doesn't preclude them from being fodder. It just means fodder have the means to be invaluable against Jacen, who as per the quote above, gets gassed from fending off Kyle while sometimes kicking his lesser companions; not even doing any damage perse. :>

I never said it prevented them from being fodder, that's a blatant strawman on your part. Your premise is that Kyle is close to Jacen, however if he's backed by a team who's contributions are invaluable, and whom he can coordinate perfectly with, yet is still only on par with (Going by your arguments that is) Jacen, that would put a rather large dent in your argument, regardless of their actual capabilities.

He was losing the fight until he force shoved a flying speeder into Kyles back while the latter anticipated a Force push.

I offer my deepest apologies Ziggy but I'm going to have to bring you back to the harsh realities of life. Throughout this fight we have a number of indicators regarding Jacen holding the upper hand.

He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.

Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.

He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.

…

In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even.

…

Ten seconds.

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.

They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.

Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three.

He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute.

Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.

Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.

Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through.

Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.

Fifteen seconds.

Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question."

The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready.

Katarn caught his returning lightsaber. "Meaning you will torture us to death. Are you listening to yourself, Jacen? Do you even know who you are anymore?"

"I do. It's you who have no idea who I am."

He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.

Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .

One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.

Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.

A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.

Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.

Katarn now stood so close to Caedus that every facial feature was visible, every scar and line in his weathered face, every hair on his brow, mustache, and beard.

Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest.

A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement.

Emphasis on the underlined sections. As mentioned above we know Kyle and Valin were burning themselves out trying to keep up, per the sourcebook quote you so generously provided. Jacen meanwhile, is completely in control, dismissing Kyle's teammates with casual gestures while negating Kyle's attacks without care or effort, and simultaneously plotting the trajectories of incoming vehicles.

He's actually inferior when it just comes to pure augmentation as a loose proxy for power in that fight.

If we're going to use augmentation as a proxy for power you should have no issue explaining to me why Aurra can't budge Jacen's blade in a lock, despite having the advantage of leverage and positioning, as well as repeatedly impaling him with a spiked toecap:

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.
Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.
"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."
She kicked again.
"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"
Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

Or why Jacen's able to close and take control of Sing's arm before she can gut him:

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."
Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.
Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

While it's true the gap wasn't wide enough for Jacen to reverse her weapon against her it's hardly of consequence, the very fact that he executed this manoeuvre despite Sing having a noticeable reach edge and Jacen's hesitation stacked on top of that should speak to the gap.

That's not even mentioning the fact that Jacen was quick enough to slip a force push under her guard, despite being in the worst position to perform such a move:

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The case or Sing's parity is built upon her landing physical strikes on him at the onset of the duel and disarming him midway through, neither of which are indicative of parity in the force (See Maul V Sheev and Jacen V Luke for reference regarding the former and Savage V Dooku in the latter) but rather displays of skill. To cap things off Jacen only advances from here.

In fact, the only reason he could compete at all is that he empowered himself from non-fatal injuries dealt to him. While the final injury he dealt Aurra hindered her ability to stand (dislocated knee).

Jacen's ability to amp himself through pain is something that will be present in any hypothetical matchup featuring the character and has little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Yet can defeat many with trickery and her unarmed technical skill alone - which is how Jacen gains the advantage over Sing - yet Jacen has spent the recent majority of his life training, unlike Aurra, smoking crack in strip clubs during a decadent exile.

As substantiated above most of the textual evidence seems to support the idea that it was Jacen's power that won the day, not his technical skill, which ironically enough, is how Sing gained the advantage initially (Your examples require quotes because I haven't read YDR and am not familiar with the instances you're referring too).

I really don't need one. Especially when everyone else agrees it's obvious she declined, bar you, DarthCaedus77

Concession accepted. Appealing to common consensus is not an argument and never has been Ziggy.

They're both pretty close to him, I'm sorry to say. Prime Aurra might be = or >

In other news, I became the king of England yesterday.