Re: TPM Maul vs TPM Windu

July 30th 2019, 5:18 pm

Praxis wrote:Cringe

July 30th 2019, 5:22 pm

LOTL wrote:You tell them DSO. Mace disrespect is intolerable and inexcusable under any circumstances

Eventhough I don't really like the character, this...

July 30th 2019, 5:23 pm

R.I.P DS0.

July 30th 2019, 5:27 pm

DS0 is getting slaughtered on both Discord and Forum. How terrible.

July 30th 2019, 5:27 pm

So we've jumped from "Grey ragdolling" to "Ziggy ragdolling"... Lovely.

July 30th 2019, 5:31 pm

It's not Ziggy ragdolling on Discord. It's everyone lmfao.

July 30th 2019, 5:38 pm

Syndiciate wrote:

Praxis wrote:Cringe

Based

July 30th 2019, 5:39 pm

DC childishly getting salty lol

July 30th 2019, 5:43 pm

Ziggy wrote:

DarthSkywanker0 wrote:This is obviously a concern in methodology, but my primary goal isn't to fulfill some ridiculous notion of a holistic quota, but rather to create an empirical ranking.

Cool.

Strict adherence to quotes that pre-date all Clone Wars material - which is the majority of PT content - are a lolworthy way to conclude .... (your subjective idea) of an empirical ranking.

But by all means carry on.

You can the use the morsels suggesting Maul is > Yoda to the confuse the path to enlightenment further.

Truth or lunacy in a fictional universe is not logically even possible, so holding to this vague notion of practicality is ridiculous to me. So, this begs the question why is it lol-worthy? You disliking the conclusions which the methodology renders is of no relevance. The method achieves both my goals.

1. To create an empirical ranking
2. To have fun

Ziggy wrote:

DarthSkywanker0 wrote:
The ambiguity of cereal box quotes claiming Yoda = mace isn't in question.

Their authority and credibility however...

For one, where's the basis ?

They aren't derived from a census that LFL people had on power levels - an idea which Chee refuted himself - claiming there was no council of deliberators agreeing upon an eMprICaL rAnKiNg for Sith and Jedi.

I never derived my system from LFL, so why should I care about what Leland says? My systems goal has been stated numerous times. It has never been to adhere to LFL policy(for months).

Ziggy wrote: So they aren't part of a hidden tier list, nor are they reflections of Lucas' mind.

Gillard would know... having received the only thing close to an empirical ranking from Lucas himself. Which is ironically referenced above and had Mace only bordering tier 8/9 compared to Sidious and Yoda's solid 9 for Revenge of the Sith.

There is a simple way to rationalize the discrepancy here. Which is, of course, to assume growth from TPM to ROTS. That is a conceptually peculiar idea, but for me, that is far better than dismissing the closest thing to empiricism we have.

Ziggy wrote: By deductive reasoning, I can only say they're subjective opinions of the author's who themselves are interpreting the content. And given that all these quotes for Mace predate AOTC, The Clone Wars, Revenge of the Sith - where we actually see these characters demonstrate their power - they can all be tossed.

By all means, dismiss the quotes if you wish. But, I don't do this to discover some truth that doesn't exist. I don't care about adherence with holistic intent.

Ziggy wrote: In their stead we can cite newer sources such as Dark Rendevouz - "perhaps Mace was Dooku's equal on neutral ground' among newer events that actually happened in the lore. This as oppose to religious methodology found in biblical times favouring blind faith in dated quotes, Harrison

In-universe quote about their dueling prowess stated later on within the mythos. We are specifically referring to their TPM incarnations(you don't have to tell me this is out of line with authorial intent).

Ziggy wrote: Dooku is hard-pressed to beat Grievous in their spars (Labyrinth of Evil). Mace - Dooku's equal on neutral ground at that point, - is clearly hard-pressed to do the same.

Why would we assume all spars are conducted the same? It doesn't logically even follow that a Jedi would have the same furiousity as a sith in sparring. And, we know from the real world fighters rarely display their full depth and range of ability in sparring sessions. I do not see why the same would not apply within star wars.

Ziggy wrote: Yoda destroyed three armed council masters while he himself was unarmed. Sidious - who is Yoda's peer on neutral ground destroyed 3 Council masters instantly with Mace to back them up.

A singular anecdote hardly serves as conclusive evidence, especially given the information provided above.

Ziggy wrote:If Dooku and Yoda were the only people who scored victories against Mace, despite him probably having countless spars with council-tier ilk, then it means there was no room for those below him to cause an upset. Giving credence to the correlation of sparring and real duels.

1. This still is hardly definitive. All this demonstrates is that dueling ability is correlated with the outcome of a spar(a claim which I have never denied). Different tiered individuals likely beat individuals on a lower tier. The same trend exists in the real world, but still no one would claim a spar is a perfect proxy.

2. Let's say Mace and Dooku spar 1000 times, and Dooku wins 10 of those engagements. This quote is still valid even though it misleadingly assesses their relative abilities.
And given, we know Mace is superior to Dooku as a duelist in this time period. Mace likely won most of the engagements.

Ziggy wrote:To conclude my answer, I don't see why spars shouldn't be proxy for real duels, when the one caveat feasibly differentiating them is that either participant might hold back (mitigated by use of training sabers) . But you already admitted might be a problem for Mace in a real duel

The evidence would be:

1. Intense sparring can lead to injury
2. In the real world(where spars happen all the time), they are rarely used as proxies for actual matchups. The evidence you have provided merely indicates a correlation with skill something which I never denied.

Ziggy wrote:Given that Plo Koon was one of the trio humiliated by Yoda in the unarmed demonstration I refferenced, it seems we can put that rumour to bed.

All that's left to ask is which bottom-of-the-barrel source is this from?

Uh, no. Yoda could easily be letting Koon win for a variety of reasons. This is relatively common in sparring in the real world. Daniel Cormier allows Khabib to take him down. Isreal Adesanya only boxes to assist his training partner perfect their abilities. Sparring is not just there to stack up skills against one another. This dogmatic view is dogmatic.

Ziggy wrote:Zig : Dooku beat Mace in spars

Darthskywanker : Dooku could not replicate this performance against Yoda

If Dooku spars Yoda a thousand times. Do you think Yoda wins every exchange?

Ziggy wrote:(1) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude them from being on the same tier as Jedi, nor would it preclude TPM Windu from being Darth Tyranus' lesser as a sith Lord. Both are a tier away from Yoda, which is the point I was making anyway.

2) Eclipsing Dooku wouldn't preclude him from loosing a fight, including spars a few times out of ten, so there isn't a contradiction

K, these are all true and addressed above.

Ziggy wrote:3) No where in the sentence is Mace capped to his TPM iteration, so well done for fudging your own evidence.

This whole debate is just about TPM Mace. I don't hold all incarnations of Mace on par with Yoda. Only TPM Mace=TPM Yoda.

Ziggy wrote:It's a well known fight, so a paltry respect thread skim for either character should give you all the info you need. As stated before. He failed to incap Ventress. And the biblical source quotes you swear fealty by claimed he needed all his power just to make her flee.

Another short skirmish. Good performance by Ventress. Does not act as a direct contradiction.

1. Both characters can undergo power growth.
2. Too short to draw any major declarations
3. Mace holds back as you just stated.

Ziggy wrote:IThe outliers are obvious enough for a smart person to wade through. The true difference is that feats are more narratively important. They are events that actually happened within the mythos. Whether as 3rd person sources, especially those dubbing any individual Jedi "most powerful" seem to just be commenting on and interpreting said sources.

This is nonsense. What is narratively important is entirely up to the reader. I may view a feat from the UK comics to be more narratively more important then Fate of the Jedi. We are literally dealing with fiction here. All of these fights just exist to serve their respective stories. What I care about is eliminating as much subjectivity as possible.

July 30th 2019, 5:43 pm

Agreed with Harr here. Windu wins all rounds in either sabers, Force, all out, but it's a good fight.

July 30th 2019, 5:44 pm

Ignored Grevious point as it was implicitly addressed within the post.

August 2nd 2019, 9:39 am

Windu all rounds but it’s a good fight every time.

August 2nd 2019, 1:35 pm

windu all rounds in very entertaining and good fight .

August 7th 2019, 2:46 am

There is no way MP can claim that TPM Maul has a chance here yet say that Kenobi loses lol

August 7th 2019, 2:59 am

Nah, I think Windu prolly wins most (if not all) rounds out of ten in this matchup, but it's not an easy fight.

August 7th 2019, 4:53 am

Not sure if anyone pointed this out, but I find it really funny that DS0 in one breath said "we need to follow quotes as if they are absolute!!!" and then mentioned an in-universe rumour that Plo overcame Yoda in sparring.. even though we have a quote stating that the only two people to ever overcome Windu in sparring are Dooku and Yoda. Pray tell, if Windu was only overcome by those two in his decades of service to the order, why on earth is it reasonable to think Plo Koon would have beaten fucking Yoda?

Jedi hold back in spars? Okay? That would equally hinder both combatants. As we saw in The Cestus Deception, Kit and Obi-Wan could still rapidly determine who was superior out of the two while not actually trying to injure one another, and to an on-looker, their spar looked as if they were trying to slaughter each other. This was while Kit limited his speed to let Obi-Wan compete. So the idea Yoda would lose to someone like Plo Koon simply because they were "sparring" is braindead.

August 8th 2019, 1:15 am

Meatpants wrote:Nah, I think Windu prolly wins most (if not all) rounds out of ten in this matchup, but it's not an easy fight.

Still doesn't reconcile. Both prime Kenobi and prime Maul beat TPM Maul every time.

August 8th 2019, 1:19 am

OT-Mace.

August 8th 2019, 1:20 am

And? @LOTL

August 8th 2019, 2:06 am

Meatpants wrote:And? @LOTL

That doesn't fit in with Mace beating Kenobi alone in the other thread let alone the team, given you have conceded that it is a hard fight for Mace

Or do you think Mace takes a majority but not all rounds against Kenobi?

August 8th 2019, 2:09 am

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

OT-Mace.

You should talk to Az about it

But yeah, the evidence indicates there bring a considerable difference between TPM Maul and prime Maul

August 8th 2019, 2:14 am

Yeah I'm going up and down here. Atm I'm thinking Mace definitely soloes the duo, and being solidly above TPM Maul (winning all rounds).

August 8th 2019, 2:25 am

Personally I am 100% sure that Kenobi beats him even leaving aside the bias that I have but everyone has their opinion

August 8th 2019, 2:27 am

LOTL wrote:Personally I am 100% sure that Kenobi beats him even leaving aside the agenda but everyone has their opinion

I'm open to hearing the arguments for Kenobi, but I just think on an intent level (that's arguably provable/usable) people like TPM Windu and Jedi Dooku are just on a higher level than Kenobi ever was.

August 8th 2019, 2:31 am

Meatpants wrote:

LOTL wrote:Personally I am 100% sure that Kenobi beats him even leaving aside the agenda but everyone has their opinion

I'm open to hearing the arguments for Kenobi, but I just think on an intent level (that's arguably provable/usable) people like TPM Windu and Jedi Dooku are just on a higher level than Kenobi ever was.

I have discussed the intent arguments with Ant. They don't necessarily indicate much. I'll explain as soon as I have access to my laptop because I am on mobile, can't see Discord currently