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DarthAnt66Moderator
ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 2:29 am
From Star Wars Art Treasures 26. Translated to English, it reads:
"At first, Lucas and the writers debated whether it was appropriate for Vader to resort to these "tricks" and if viewers wouldn't wonder why he hadn't used them during his duel with Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but immediately arose the simple explanation that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Vader so it would have proved useless."
This source was released in 2011 and gives a decisive take to the famous Annotated Screenplays quote.
SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 5:23 am
Ok, but how come Ben Kenobi couldn't use any force powers on Vader? See the quote don't make sense. The only likely explanation is that they were equal in power. Kenobi could have used the force on Vader as well.
One thing I think is worth mentioning. In the making of ANH, Lucas originally saw Vader as some pathetic henchman of the the emperor. He gets bossed around by admirals, and even Leia talks smack about him and how Tarkin is holding him on his leash. So its clear Lucas never had a high opinion the power level of the character in the context of ANH. This changed when Lucas decided to actually give Vader an arc in the next two films. The main one being Luke's father which was an idea that was never planned from the beginning. And in ESB he is choking admirals left, right and center ( he even chokes an admiral through a screen without having to move his finger). He toys and defeats Luke very easily. So in ESB it's clear that he wasn't some pathetic henchman who was pushed around by admirals. He was an actual threat here.
So IMO whatever quotes that have been released about ANH Vader absolutely have no relevance on Vader's power in ESB and ROTJ. I think its safe to say there was quite significant growth in power for Vader from ANH to ROTJ
One thing I think is worth mentioning. In the making of ANH, Lucas originally saw Vader as some pathetic henchman of the the emperor. He gets bossed around by admirals, and even Leia talks smack about him and how Tarkin is holding him on his leash. So its clear Lucas never had a high opinion the power level of the character in the context of ANH. This changed when Lucas decided to actually give Vader an arc in the next two films. The main one being Luke's father which was an idea that was never planned from the beginning. And in ESB he is choking admirals left, right and center ( he even chokes an admiral through a screen without having to move his finger). He toys and defeats Luke very easily. So in ESB it's clear that he wasn't some pathetic henchman who was pushed around by admirals. He was an actual threat here.
So IMO whatever quotes that have been released about ANH Vader absolutely have no relevance on Vader's power in ESB and ROTJ. I think its safe to say there was quite significant growth in power for Vader from ANH to ROTJ
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 6:13 am
KingofBlades wrote:F
MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 7:35 am
Yeah but in ESB the script and novels say that Luke gave Vader a good fight.
- GuestGuest
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 8:49 am
Vader was given a solid fight by Luke as is displayed in all of the primary sources which describe the fight. He was forced back twice in the first portion of the fight and clipped on the shoulder in the second portion of the fight. How on earth people can argue that Vader won "easily" and was toying with Luke is beyond me.
- GuestGuest
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 8:56 am
DC77 wrote:KingofBlades wrote:F
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 9:06 am
Sure an angry Luke put up a fight against a holding back Vader who would never kill his own son. Vader literally disarmed him in the first few seconds of their fight, and he pushed him back twice down the stairs.The Shadow wrote:Vader was given a solid fight by Luke as is displayed in all of the primary sources which describe the fight. He was forced back twice in the first portion of the fight and clipped on the shoulder in the second portion of the fight. How on earth people can argue that Vader won "easily" and was toying with Luke is beyond me.
- GuestGuest
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 10:37 am
@SithSauce
Yeah, sure Vader wasn't intending to kill but that doesn't mean he was holding back in regards to augmentation at all. The fact is if he were vastly more powerful than Luke he wouldn't have been put on the defensive.
Vader most certainly didn't disarm Luke in the first few seconds. The fight went on for several minutes as per the JN, and the movie doesn't conflict with this (it shows Luke forcing Vader back and then there's a cut to another scene and when we cut back it shows Luke being disarmed). As for him pushing Luke back, I never denied he was incapable of doing so nor that he isn't the superior combatant just that saying he defeated Luke with ease is dishonest.
Sure an angry Luke put up a fight against a holding back Vader who would never kill his own son.
Yeah, sure Vader wasn't intending to kill but that doesn't mean he was holding back in regards to augmentation at all. The fact is if he were vastly more powerful than Luke he wouldn't have been put on the defensive.
Vader literally disarmed him in the first few seconds of their fight, and he pushed him back twice down the stairs.
Vader most certainly didn't disarm Luke in the first few seconds. The fight went on for several minutes as per the JN, and the movie doesn't conflict with this (it shows Luke forcing Vader back and then there's a cut to another scene and when we cut back it shows Luke being disarmed). As for him pushing Luke back, I never denied he was incapable of doing so nor that he isn't the superior combatant just that saying he defeated Luke with ease is dishonest.
KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 12:28 pm
The co producer of episodes 5 and 6 also said that Sidious is much more powerful than Vader
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 2:05 pm
SithSauce wrote:Ok, but how come Ben Kenobi couldn't use any force powers on Vader? See the quote don't make sense. The only likely explanation is that they were equal in power. Kenobi could have used the force on Vader as well.
I imagine you can think of explanations that don't render the quote null, lol.
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 3:35 pm
And no one here except maybe a few have denied thatKingofBlades wrote:The co producer of episodes 5 and 6 also said that Sidious is much more powerful than Vader
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 3:38 pm
Eh I worded this stupidly tbh.DarthAnt66 wrote:SithSauce wrote:Ok, but how come Ben Kenobi couldn't use any force powers on Vader? See the quote don't make sense. The only likely explanation is that they were equal in power. Kenobi could have used the force on Vader as well.
I imagine you can think of explanations that don't render the quote null, lol.
O-Siri
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 11:01 pm
Meh, kind of conflicts with Vader's statement "your power is weak old man" which does not imply Kenobi is the stronger of the two as well as Vader's slight advantage in the novel depictions. Seems more like typical creator post-hoc rationalization to explain away perceived inconsistencies and internally inconsistent with what the movie and the novels depicting the fight show us.
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 11:28 pm
If Kenobi was more powerful, it wasn’t by much.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 28th 2019, 11:55 pm
Kilius wrote:Meh, kind of conflicts with Vader's statement "your power is weak old man" which does not imply Kenobi is the stronger of the two as well as Vader's slight advantage in the novel depictions. Seems more like typical creator post-hoc rationalization to explain away perceived inconsistencies and internally inconsistent with what the movie and the novels depicting the fight show us.
Or that could be Vader calling the light side weak as sith so often do. Like how Vader believed Anakin was weak because of his connection to the light.
Blade_of_DorinLevel One
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
July 29th 2019, 1:06 am
Meatpants wrote:If Kenobi was more powerful, it wasn’t by much.
The Witness
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
August 17th 2019, 3:32 pm
Well Kenobi has been in exile doing nothing. While Vader has been hunting the remaining jedi, training under Sidious and doing dirty work for the Empire.
Not sure if I can take this quote seriously
Not sure if I can take this quote seriously
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
August 17th 2019, 8:28 pm
Why does any of that matter lol?
Latham2000Level Three
Re: ANH Obi-Wan > ANH Darth Vader in Force power
August 19th 2019, 6:36 am
This sounds like an early concept, but it’s as canon as Vader killing Maul on Malachor.
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