SS - Darth Vader (In-SidiousVader) vs Starkiller (ArkhamAsylum3)

Guarantee you this debate won't start till 2020.

Darth Vader's Relativity and Superiority to Galen Marek:

Hopefully I can limit this endeavor to a short but sweet little opener. Detailing Darth Vader's relation to Galen Marek in both games

So to start off with Darth Vader his relativity to Galen as of The Force Unleashed is practically undeniable, Vader and Galen have a great fight initially and then Galen "understands a better way to kill" gains emotional growth and ragdolls Vader. However before that they are about equal if a marginal edge could be given to anyone however it would have to be Vader

Exhibit A:


Darth Vader holds a combat ready Galen Marek in his force grip for around 10 or so seconds then unleashes a titanic blast that shatters a structure behind Galen and throws him bodily against the wall.

Exhibit B:

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.
-The Force Unleashed

So, the implication is that Darth Vader is capable of breaking through Starkiller's defenses, now does this itself indicate superiority? No, not necessarily, but it does show you how close the two are, this combined with the earlier example and the next example should paint a picture that if anyone was superior in this contest, it would be Darth Vader.

Exhibit C:
"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.
The Force Unleashed

Now the most common rebuttal to this feat is the fact that Galen "beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own", however this argument is not taking into account the nature of force barriers specifically, Vader's force barrier. If an opponent is performing an attack, then until they complete that attack and resume a normal or defensive stance they are left vulnerable to counter attack, we see this in The Last Jedi with Darth Vader and Jax Pavan:

Spoiler:

Essentially my point is, that Galen Marek does not specifically overpower Vader's active attack, he attacks an unprotected Darth Vader which causes the Dark lord to reel backwards. This is a preemptive counter to an argument I assumed the opposition would use.

Now that we have established that Darth Vader and Marek are equal until Galen's emotional growth, we can move on to TFU 2:

The Force Unleashed II:

I don't feel like countering Galen's "Exhaustion" Right now, so I will only be highlighting the relevant passages that indicates Vader's superiority to Galen as well as the specific implications that are reinforced by the game.

The first passage I will cite is Darth Vader clearly breaking Galen's Force Barrier:

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.
The Force Unleashed II

To actually target Galen's Lightsabers and throw them off course is to break the force barrier. He influences Galen's arms to move, which means he broke through Galen's active barrier since they are in the middle of combat.

What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor," Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.

It needed to end now, or else it might never end.

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.
The Force Unleashed II

The idea here is that Darth Vader is able to force Starkiller back further and further until Starkiller has a realization that there are two options for him. He can either continue to defend and will eventually be pushed off the platform which would give Vader the victory, or he can attack and leave himself open to counterattack which would allow him to win via trickery, and indeed Galen does. He pretends to bend the knee before Vader and lures him into a false sense of security allowing him to gain the upper-hand and win.

There is only two more citations I wish to make for Vader's superiority to Galen. One for Lightsaber skill and Strength, another for his Force advantage:

Strength/Lightsaber Skill:

Force Superiority:

In the first Gif I posted Darth Vader tears the lightsabers out of Starkiller's hands seemingly with ease, picks him up and hurls him away. This demonstrates his superior Strength and Skill to Starkiller

In the video I posted, Darth Vader snatches a charging Galen mid air and continues to choke him for around 20 seconds, in fact the only way Starkiller breaks free is when Vader chooses to throw starkiller into the nearby electrical conduit and Galen regains his control mid air and bounces off a nearby metal strut, but until he was thrown he was incapable of breaking from Darth Vader's hold.

That really is all for now, I shall highlight Darth Vader's growth from TFU 2 in my next post but as of today my opener is done, it is up to HP to respond now.

Interesting opener. Looking forward to seeing what happens.

TAEP.

DC77 wrote:TAEP.

whats that? lol

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

DC77 wrote:TAEP.

whats that? lol

Tag after ever post

T A E P

ah ok, thx

Still waiting for the post HP, it's been finished since yesterday.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Still waiting for the post HP, it's been finished since yesterday.

Don't you have your own Vader post to write in the SS: Vader vs Tyranus Thread?

Yes but that post hasn't even started. HP's has literally been finished for like 2 days, it should be posted by now lol.

Not true. My post isn't fully complete but it is nearly done. I will admit though that I'm very lazy about finishing it.

Don’t get into something like this in the first place then for Christ sake:/

My post is complete. I shall transfer it from Google Docs to SI when I wake up.

Opener

To improve general reading quality, and not make my opener messy it will be split into 5 main sections: the introduction, the TFU fight, the TFU 2 fight, Galen’s own performances, and the conclusion.

Preface

I disagree with ISV’s claim that Vader was comparable or superior to Marek in either of their fights, and to say that he was, goes against the core thematic intention of The Force Unleashed, so my main goal of this post is to debunk those claims to the best of my ability. This shouldn’t be hard though, as ISV’s claim of parity rests largely on selectively cherry-picking the segments of the fight which look best for Vader. Most of his examples, either lack context or are baseless claims of parity made without paying attention to the wider mythos, which I honestly believe was ISV’s biggest flaw when constructing his opener; he didn’t compare Galen vs Vader to other fights.

TFU 1

ISV’s Assertions

So to start off with Darth Vader his relativity to Galen as of The Force Unleashed is practically undeniable, Vader and Galen have a great fight initially and then Galen "understands a better way to kill" gains emotional growth and ragdolls Vader.

Rest assured I will address the snippets from the fight which you believe indicate Vader’s relativity/superiority to Galen.

However before that they are about equal if a marginal edge could be given to anyone however it would have to be Vader

… You used “however” twice in one sentence. Is your vocabulary really that limited that you can’t think up a word as a replacement for it, and resorted to using it again? Anyway, once again I disagree and Galen’s superiority will be proven in due course. Let’s see what you’ve got.

Exhibit A

Darth Vader holds a combat ready Galen Marek in his force grip for around 10 or so seconds then unleashes a titanic blast that shatters a structure behind Galen and throws him bodily against the wall.

Nice… A needlessly long description of what happened to make your post seem longer and better than it actually is. Seriously though, what shit are you high on? Must be some good stuff if you think that was 10 seconds:

https://youtu.be/87Yci_o21vk?t=39

Vader grabs Galen at 0:39, and unleashes a TK wave which sends him flying at 0:41. Vader had him in a hold for precisely 2 seconds. I don’t understand… You took a scene and somehow managed to multiply the extent of time it lasted for by 5. Words honestly fail me.

Anyway, moving on from your weird perception of time this exchange isn’t an indication of superiority. For one, holding someone briefly in a TK hold for 2 seconds doesn’t mean you’re superior, as we’ve seen Darth Maul duel evenly with Obi-Wan Kenobi for extended periods of time (0:50 - 1:45), despite being able to replicate what Vader did to Starkiller on Kenobi (3:31 - 3:37). In fact, he actually holds Kenobi in a TK hold for longer than Vader does to Starkiller.

Secondly, this scene happened when Galen was taken off guard by Vader, as is shown in the novelization, where it’s noted that Galen thought he was ready to deal with Vader so the sheer severity of The Dark Lord’s opening attack takes him by surprise (1). Consequently, in the Wii version, he gets ragdolled (to use the term very loosely), and in the novelization, he nearly gets disarmed in a single swing.

Exhibit B

So, the implication is that Darth Vader is capable of breaking through Starkiller's defenses, now does this itself indicate superiority? No, not necessarily, but it does show you how close the two are, this combined with the earlier example and the next example should paint a picture that if anyone was superior in this contest, it would be Darth Vader.

You do realise that this was after Galen had attempted to use Dun Moch on Vader right, hence why the passage notes the intensity of Vader’s attack “redoubled” (2)? It’s not a reliable indicator of Vader’s base strength, and cannot be used to place Vader close to Starkiller.

Moreover, there isn’t an implication Vader broke through Starkiller’s defences… It’s never noted once that Vader hit him, and in the passage, you underlined it actually notes the opposite that being that Vader failed to touch Galen (2).

Exhibit C

Now the most common rebuttal to this feat is the fact that Galen "Beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own", however this argument is not taking into account the nature of force barriers specifically, Vader's force barrier. If an opponent is performing an attack, then until they complete that attack and resume a normal or defensive stance they are left vulnerable to counter attack, we see this in The Last Jedi with Darth Vader and Jax Pavan:

In the example provided, Jax pushes Vader back through capitalising on a distraction on the latter’s part, not Vader being vulnerable while holding him in a choke hold… Furthermore, there’s a clear difference between the effectiveness of Galen’s attack and the effectiveness of Jax’s. Jax pushes Vader back 3 steps, while Galen sends Vader flying backward.

Essentially my point is, that Galen Marek does not specifically overpower Vader's active attack, he attacks an unprotected Darth Vader which causes the Dark lord to reel backwards. This is a preemptive counter to an argument I assumed the opposition would use.

There’s no evidence Vader was unprotected/vulnerable to counterattack. Plus, absolutely none of this helps to explain why Vader shows any relativity with Galen through this exchange. All he did in the passage posted was fail to administer a choke hold on Galen. How does that indicate he is comparable or superior?

Conclusion

Your arguments for Vader while amusing don’t at all prove Vader is superior. Time to provide reasons why Marek was outfighting Vader even prior to emotional growth:

During their fight in the novelization, Galen is noted to be testing Vader’s defences to their limits indicating he’s hard pressing Vader (3). This is in total contrast to how Galen blocks Vader’s blows with "elegant precision" and isn’t hard-pressed until his Dun Moch attempt backfires (4). Overall, I’d say it’s made very clear in the novelization Galen is Vader’s combative superior.

Emotional Growth

Now that we have established that Darth Vader and Marek are equal until Galen's emotional growth, we can move on to TFU 2:

Hold up a second… Why is establishing that they are equals prior to emotional growth relevant? This growth is permanent (we see in TFU 2 that Galen still maintains his “I will kill you, to set you free” mentality towards Vader), so Galen no longer has any psychological hindrances which will give Vader the edge. It’s like saying, “Vader ragdolled Rahm Kota who was equal to Galen at the start of the game,” and acting like it has relevance to Vader vs Prime Galen. We’re discussing Galen in TFU 2 here as can be seen in the thread rules, so I have no clue what you’re trying to prove by bringing this up.

TFU 2

Galen’s Exhaustion

I don't feel like countering Galen's "Exhaustion" Right now, so I will only be highlighting the relevant passages that indicates Vader's superiority to Galen as well as the specific implications that are reinforced by the game.

So, you don’t feel like countering perhaps the most relevant argument that’s been made against this fight? Great… Basically, everything you’ve cited below is essentially bunk then if you cannot convincingly discredit the exhaustion argument. For those that are not aware of the exhaustion argument, I’ll write a summary below:

Right before fighting Darth Vader Galen depletes the vast majority of his Force Reserves, meaning he wasn’t at his peak in their engagement. Firstly, Galen unleashes the totality of his raw power in destroying The Salvation and fears the feat may kill him (5). When he wakes up he struggles to stand, and then while travelling to Darth Vader strains when trying to lift a large ship, and is visibly tired after doing so. Both of the above links indicate Starkiller was already heavily weakened, but on top of that he unleashes his full might against an army of clones to destroy them (6), which caused him to feel more exhausted than he ever had before (7). This includes a time where he’d spent 13 days without food and sleep sustaining himself solely off the force, causing him to dry up the vast majority of his reserves (8). Galen was so weakened in that instance that he’d “shied away from memory and contemplation,” because “there was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake.” Galen was weaker than he was when on the verge of death and didn’t even want to waste energy on remembering or thinking, and you’d have me believe Vader can contend with Starkiller at his strongest. That is nothing short of laughable.

Exhibit A

The first passage I will cite is Darth Vader clearly breaking Galen's Force Barrier:

To actually target Galen's Lightsabers and throw them off course is to break the force barrier. He influences Galen's arms to move, which means he broke through Galen's active barrier since they are in the middle of combat.

Nice… Tell me ISV what about this feat indicates superiority? Ventress has replicated this very same feat on Dooku (3:37 - 3:41)... And she has:

-Lost to him while his senses were dulled when she had Nightsisters for backup (link).

-Been on the losing end of a clash with Dooku when she had another incredibly powerful Force User in Savage Opress for backup (1:01 - 2:26).

-Got stomped by him on an even playing field (3:13 - 3:30).

Given the fact that you conceded to the above on Discord I’d say we have a dead premise do we not?

Exhibit B

The idea here is that Darth Vader is able to force Starkiller back further and further until Starkiller has a realization that there are two options for him. He can either continue to defend and will eventually be pushed off the platform which would give Vader the victory, or he can attack and leave himself open to counterattack which would allow him to win via trickery, and indeed Galen does. He pretends to bend the knee before Vader and lures him into a false sense of security allowing him to gain the upper-hand and win.

Okay… First off, Vader only pushed Galen back because the latter attempted to get him to join the rebellion which per the passage itself struck a nerve (once again it’s not indicative of his base strength). Secondly, forcing someone doesn’t mean you’re superior as we’ve seen that Yoda can force Sidious back in ROTS (9), Luke can force Vader back in ESB (10), Anakin can force Dooku back in AOTC (11) etc, yet none of them are superior to their opponents (Luke and Anakin obviously lost their fights and Yoda is equal to Sidious as is testified by secondary sources (12)). Thirdly, Vader would only win the fight because Starkiller would be forced off the roof and be unable to re-engage with Vader. That would be a win via BFR, not a win through him legitimately overpowering Starkiller’s defences so it’s not an indicator of superiority.

Exhibit’s C and D

There are only two more citations I wish to make for Vader's superiority to Galen. One for Lightsaber skill and Strength, another for his Force advantage:

Okay, let’s see what you’ve got.

In the first Gif I posted Darth Vader tears the lightsabers out of Starkiller's hands seemingly with ease, picks him up and hurls him away. This demonstrates his superior Strength and Skill to Starkiller

Per the novelization, Galen let himself get disarmed so he could beat Vader when the latter lowered his guard (13). Now, obviously Vader doesn’t lower his guard in the VG and Galen ends up having to do things the hard way, but that doesn’t mean the original reason why he let himself get disarmed still wasn't there. Note that if you attempt to argue that the scene in the VG is different from the novel so I cannot apply SK’s motives from there to it that would mean the scene itself is contradictory (Vader disarming SK legitimately obviously never happens in the novel), and according to the canon policy we’re using gameplay mechanics are S-Canon, whereas the novelization is C-Canon meaning anything that directly contradicts the novelization is rendered N-Canon. Either the disarm never happened or SK let him do it. Either way, Vader takes another L.

On top of the above rebuttal, I shall also refute the idea that the feat proves Vader is superior, though due to the fact that I believe Vader is stronger than Galen I shall solely refute the claim that it proves Vader is more skilled. Once again, your biggest mistake in this entire post is not comparing Galen vs Vader to other fights. In TCW movie, we’ve seen Ventress can disarm Obi-Wan (1:37 - 1:40), despite obviously not being more skilled than he is which can be seen by the fact that in the same fight he:

A) Holds her off while unarmed and recovers his saber moments later (1:41 - 1:59).

B) Begins to gain the upper hand at the end of the fight. For example, at (3:10 - 3:18) he overpowers her in a blade lock and disarms her of one of her sabers.

In the video I posted, Darth Vader snatches a charging Galen mid air and continues to choke him for around 20 seconds, in fact the only way Starkiller breaks free is when Vader chooses to throw starkiller into the nearby electrical conduit and Galen regains his control mid air and bounces off a nearby metal strut, but until he was thrown he was incapable of breaking from Darth Vader's hold.

Per the VG and the Prima Guide, Galen just prior had used “Force Rage” to “strike a savage blow to Darth Vader and his minions (11:47 - 11:56)." After Galen has struck the “savage blow” against Vader, however you can clearly see he’s no longer in Force Rage (his Force Rage meter is reset and the red around the edges of the screen fades), meaning he would have been “drained of huge amounts of energy,” as that is what happens when one exists Force Rage. Thus, Vader ragdolled a heavily weakened Starkiller, and this feat simply does not mean he has the Force edge. It should be fairly self-evident the ragdolling was circumstantial though, as Vader despite doing “everything in his power” to defeat SK earlier in the fight was incapable of replicating this performance.

SK’s Advantages

Now that ISV’s cherry-picked segments have been addressed, it’s time to look at SK’s advantages throughout the fight. For clarification, given that ISV has repeatedly used other versions of the fight, which are contradictory to the novel I see no reason why I should limit myself to simply using the novelization, and so the below is a compilation of all sources on the matter.

Firstly, in the Wii version of the game we have Galen gaining the “upper hand” over Vader in the opening exchange (0:12 - 0:24), and then we have him knocking Vader down onto his knees later in the fight (3:23 - 3:38). While neither of these proves Galen is superior they do show that he like Vader had his advantages at certain parts in the battle, and mainly serve as a rebuttal to your points about Vader forcing SK back in the Lightsaber duel and disarming him during the fight.

Secondly, we have quite possibly the most important exchange in the fight; Galen vs Vader in The Cloning Tower. As is consistently portrayed in all depictions of the fight Galen was winning until a vision interrupts his focus. The TFU 2 script notes “Starkiller appears to have the upper hand,” and the novelization has him overpowering Vader:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Thirdly, at the end of the fight Galen cuts off Vader’s hand and blasts him into submission with Force Lightning (17:44 - 19:33) in the XBOX version of the VG, disarms him in the comic with a Force push; finishing him with Force Lightning once again (link) and ragdolls him in the DS version of the VG (link).

SK’s Feats

There are plenty of environmental feats I could list for SK, but I’m sure you and almost everyone reading this debate will agree that SK has environmental feats that shit all over Vader’s. To keep this concise, I will limit myself to mentioning only two: the atomisation of half of a 300m long Frigate (14) and the re-directing of the 1600m ISD (15). Both of these, in my opinion, are out of Vader’s ballpark, and so I ask you what does Vader have left? His other performances certainly don’t give me the impression he’s on SK’s tier and your attempt to draw parity between them has been a colossal failure. Try matching these feats and you might be able to argue Vader wins but for now, it’s looking to me like SK stomps him.

Conclusion

Contrary to your statements Vader absolutely does not scale above Starkiller in any way shape or form, and the latter has environmental feats well out of the former’s ballpark. I could go more in-depth, but I don’t really feel the need given how shocking your opener was. I’m hoping you can turn the tables to make the debate more interesting because right now things aren’t looking good for you.

Sources

1:

The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit-the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.

He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

2:

I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

3:

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

4:

“You are weak,” the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision.

[...]

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

5:

Starkiller closed his eyes. He didn't have time to wonder what was going through her mind. He had to think of something fast, or Juno was going to die.

There was only one thing he could do, and although he knew he wasn't likely to survive, he didn't hesitate. What was death when the love of his former life was at stake?

Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him - and blew it into a billion pieces.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

6:

He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

7:

He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over.

They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.

"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

8:

He shied away from both memory and contemplation. There was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake. How many days he had been down the pit he no longer knew, but in that time he had neither eaten nor slept. His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself-his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

"You're alive," said Darth Vader.

At the voice of his former Master, Starkiller looked up, blinking against the light. Vader's boots were three meters above him, barely visible behind the lights and the grate that separated the pit from the dark room beyond. The Dark Lord loomed like a shadow, a black hole in the shape of a robed man.

Starkiller's throat worked. It was so dry he could barely talk at all.

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive."

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

9:

YODA: Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.

Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious.

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.

Source: ROTS Script

---

“Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force.”

Even if Palpatine killed him here, today, the dark side would not truly win. For the dark side was hatred, despair – all things the forces of ruin and decay. Powerful, they were, to tear down and destroy, but they could not build anything lasting. Palpatine’s ten-thousand-year Galactic Empire would not last a lifetime.

The thought gave Yoda renewed energy, and he pressed his attack. He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellors podium.

Source: ROTS Junior Novelization

10:

Luke and Vader are locked in combat on the platform overlooking the chamber. Their swords clash, the platform sways. Luke aggressively drives Vader back, forcing Vader to use defensive tactics.

[...]

Luke is more cautious, controlling his anger. He begins to retreat as Vader goads him on. As Luke takes a defensive position, he realizes he has been foolhardy. A quick sword exchange and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange and Vader retreats. Luke presses forward.

Vader: Only your hatred can destroy me.

Breathing hard, Luke jumps in the air, turning a somersault over Vader. He lands on the floor and slashes at Vader as the room continues to fill up with steam. Vader retreats before Luke's skillful sword. Vader blocks the sword, but looses his balance and falls into the outer rim of pipes.

Source: ESB Script

11:

And ANAKIN charges at COUNT DOOKU. The force of his attack catches the Count slightly off balance. Anakin's lightsaber flashes. COUNT DOOKU draws back, putting a hand to his arm. He takes the hand away and looks at the smear of blood where Anakin has nicked him.

Source: AOTC Script

12:

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp

13:

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

"This is your last chance, " Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller's chest.

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.

Any rational being would at least consider Vader's offer.

The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he's won.

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances."

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

14:

Barely a minute into the dive, Starkiller knew he had to move. Nebulon-B frigates weren't designed for rapid reentry. Anything over eight hundred kilometers an hour risked tearing off control vanes and external sensors - and the Salvation was already doing far in excess of that.

The ship shook and thundered. Strange screeching noises ran from nose to tail, as though it might tear apart at any moment. It would physically hold together long enough - he was sure of that, but the controls in the bridge were already approaching useless. The main display was full of static. He could barely make out the planet, let alone the location he was aiming for.

He needed a better vantage point if he was going to pull this off.

That he was effectively riding in a giant metal coffin was an additional thought he tried to suppress.

The ship could fly itself for a short time. He had patched the navicomp into what remained of targeting computers, leaving him reasonably certain that it could point and thrust effectively while his hands were off the controls. He didn't want to leave it long, though, so he ran for the exit and headed upward as fast as he could, taking turbolift shafts and passages cur by the bounty hunter wherever he could. He ignored bodies, personal effects, fires - everything. Where doors or bulkheads lay in his path, he telekinetically ripped them aside and kept running.

The ship lurched beneath him as he entered the upper decks. That, he presumed, was the result of the primary forward laser cannon being ripped away by the rising atmospheric friction. Its center of gravity perturbed, the ship began to sway from side to side. He tried not to imagine superheated air boiling up through the infrastructure from the hole left behind. He would be exposed to the same soon enough.

He reached the freshwater tanks and began moving horizontally, toward the rear rather than forward. When he reached the surgery suite - even more of a bloody mess than it had been before - he headed upward again, to where the short-range communications array protruded from a bulge on the frigate's upper fore section.

He could hear the air rushing past as he approached the outer hull. It sounded like a mad giant screaming.

The ship lurched again, but less noisily this time. The rupture was more distant - probably the static discharge vanes on the aft section, he decided. That would rob the ship of even more stability.
Even as he thought that, the Salvation began slewing from side to side.

"Hang in there," he told the ship. "I'm coming."

He found a maintenance ladder leading to an air lock and leapt up it in two bounds, blowing the inner hatch as he came. He could feel a wild drumming from the far side of the outer door. The ship was moving so fast now that unexposed flesh wouldn't last a microsecond. He would have to rely on a Force shield to keep him safe. A single lapse in concentration would be the end of him.

He took a second to compose himself.

For Juno.

Then he raised a hand and telekinetically burst through the outer hatch.

Instantly the world was fire. The air around the ship consisted of a blinding plasma, hotter than any ordinary flame. He forced his way into it, bracing himself against metal rungs that had turned instantly red on exposure to the outside. His eyes narrowed to slits in order to make out even the nearest outline. He could barely see the fingers in front of his face.

He didn't need to see. The Force guided him, move by move, out onto the hull, where he braced himself with his back to the short-range array and turned to face forward. Like Kota, he would see without eyes.

A trembling shape up and to his left chose that moment to give way, showering molten fragments all along the spine of the ship. The primary array was no great loss: he couldn't have heard anyone anyway over the racket in his ears. But the forward turbolasers and primary sensor unit, the next two chunks to go, were more of a concern. The ship was seriously unbalanced now. It shuddered underfoot, pulling wildly in different directions. If he was going to prevent it slipping into an uncontrollable rumble or rearing apart, he had to act quickly and decisively.

This was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of hear he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead - a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight.

Starkiller took a deep breath. The cool trapped air behind the shield would last long enough, he hoped. He had been too worried about frying to consider suffocating to death.

He raised his hands and spread his fingers wide. His eyes closed tightly against the fiery brightness of the plasma. With each bucking and shaking of the ship beneath him, he encouraged himself to ride with it instead of fighting it. He was part of the ship, not a passenger. He was the ship, not a reckless pilot guiding it to destruction.

In the same way that he could feel his fingers and toes, his mind seeped outward into the metal and plastoid of the frigate, until every joint and weld, every porthole and deck became part of his sense of being. There was no line anymore between Starkiller and the Salvation. They were one and the same being, from the perspective of the Force.

He raised his right arm, and the ship followed the movement, listing slowly and heavily to starboard. Some of the headlong shuddering faded, as though it were grateful to have someone at the helm again. Even the wind's shrieking seemed to ebb.

Something tore away at aft of the ship, and he bent his knees slightly to absorb the shock.

The Salvation steadied, found a new center of gravity, and roared on.

Confident that his vast metal charge was now under control, he cast his mind outward. He was shocked by how far he had fallen. The Salvation must have punctured the planetary shield itself some time ago, and he simply hadn't noticed in all the turbulence. Now the cloud cover was less than a hundred meters below and coming up quickly. Behind the Salvation, a long fiery wake stretched across the sky, trailed by starfighters, and, farther back, capital ships on both sides, coming through the hole in the shield. The generators below would soon repair the hole, if he didn't guide his hurtling missile correctly, leaving the Rebel ships on the inside trapped, with him.

Assuming he survived...

For Juno.

The frigate slammed into the clouds with a rearing sound. At that speed, individual droplets of water hit like thermal detonators. The Salvation's own shields were holding, barely, but even so it lost still more of its mass to the ongoing battering. Several lower decks peeled back and were swept away, including the bridge. Most of the short-range array was gone, leaving him with just the base to hold him steady. He clenched his hands into fists and willed the ship to keep going.

Something succumbed to the plasma with a flash. A bright spark tumbled in his wake - the secondary reactor he had spent so much energy saving from the giant droid. He ignored it. The bottom of the cloud layer was approaching, and with it would come his first clear glimpse of the shield generators.

The air became still and relatively quiet when the Salvation punched through the clouds. The extra friction had slowed the frigate somewhat, making it a more manageable beast. Starkiller opened his eyes and discovered that he could see over the bulge of the forward decks to his destination. Perhaps some of the hull had been ripped away there, too.

The cloning facility lay spread out ahead of him. Had he wanted to, he could have hit it dead-center and wiped it off the face of Kamino. And had Juno not been inside, he would have been tempted. He felt no sentimental attachment to the place of his rebirth, and if there was any chance of taking out Darth Vader with it, all the better.

His sole target, however, was the shield generator buildings, and at last he saw them, as clear as they had seemed from the bridge, directly ahead.

Carefully, wary of putting too much strain on an already overtaxed chassis, he nudged the Salvations nose down. If he came in low and hit the ocean first, he could concentrate the damage to one location. If he overreached by so much as a degree, he might miss the ocean completely and scrape a long, fiery line right through the heart of the facility.

The Salvation resisted. He pushed harder. The nose descended and held there for ten seconds, strain echoing all through the ship. It wasn't made for anything like this. Nothing larger than a starfighter was. Neither was he.

With a bone-jarring crack, the spine connecting fore and aft sections of the frigate snapped clean through. Starkiller reached out with the Force, trying desperately to keep the two pieces together, but nothing could be done. They were already moving on slightly different trajectories. Air and debris sprayed from the great wound that separated them, providing entirely unpredictable thrust.

Groaning, juddering, the fore section began to lift again. Starkiller didn't fight it. With so much mass already stripped from it, the damage it would do when it hit was negligible. The rear was the priority. The heavy engines and main reactor continued powering forward on the trajectory it had originally been following. Was that the right trajectory or not? Starkiller anxiously studied its fall, projecting it forward to the best of his senses.

It looked good. He felt positive about it. Keeping an eye on the stubby rear section as it passed under him, he braced himself for impact. Barely a minute remained now. If he survived the crash, he would soon know whether he was right or not.

Ahead, a series of cloning towers loomed, standing as upright and tall as wroshyr trees on Kashyyyk. The fore section he stood upon was going to come down among them, doing a considerable amount of damage in the process. Starkiller didn't mind. Until their memories were activated, clones weren't truly alive; they were little more than meat in suspended animation. And the technicians attending them were servants of the Empire, and therefore viable targets. Some of them, perhaps, were responsible for his birth, if clone he truly was, and for their complicity in Vader's twisted plans. He smiled as his fiery steed descended toward them, imagining them fleeing in the face of the meteor as it grew large in the sky.

He could actually see tiny long-necked figures running through the complex, white-armored stormtroopers resolutely standing at their stations, and a black-robed figure looming high above them all, watching him approach.

Vader.

Below and slightly ahead, the engines struck the surface of the sea, sending a wave of superheated steam radiating outward along the wave tops.

Starkiller couldn't take his eyes off his former Master. He was right in his path, and not even moving! For a moment Starkiller couldn't understand why - until, next to Vader, bound in shackles and so small he had barely noticed her, he saw-

Juno.

A huge eruption heralded the impact of the engines into the side of the shield generators. The sky and sea convulsed. A shock wave spread through the facility, making the cloning towers sway. The fore section of the Salvation rolled to starboard, but not by enough to miss the cloning towers. Its terminus was fixed.

Just seconds remained before the Salvation's fore section hit Kamino. The facility was in close focus ahead of him, and he imagined he could see Juno's eyes widening on seeing him, haloed with his Force shield on top of her precious ship. Did she know it was him, or did she wonder at this strange apparition? Did she imagine that he was her death coming at last, from the skies instead of Darth Vader's hand?

Starkiller closed his eyes. He didn't have time to wonder what was going through her mind. He had to think of something fast, or Juno was going to die.

There was only one thing he could do, and although he knew he wasn't likely to survive, he didn't hesitate. What was death when the love of his former life was at stake? Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him - and blew it into a billion pieces.

Source: The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

15:

Can't you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

It was aiming for him.

"Juno can't fly the ship at the moment," said Kota firmly, "and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution."

"What's wrong with Juno?"

"Concentrate on what's important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You'll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon."

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

"You're insane," he gasped. "It's massive!"

"What is mass?" Kota said. "It's all in your mind, boy. You're a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!"

Kota's voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

"Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you'll die on this trash heap!"

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

You're a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

He wasn't a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn't recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

Had his Master ever done anything like this? Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?

He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes. "Be quick about it, boy!"

Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota's point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.

Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren't fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttles. Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down. Wherever it went down . . .

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

Focus.

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn't hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn't appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor's handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer's incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraithlike. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire - yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

Who did he think he was?

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death's head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master's, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased.

But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone - or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came.

The Star Destroyer's catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again. For Juno, then.

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice's feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization

Post gave me a good chuckle.

On the contrary, I really enjoyed AA3’s post, even if I think there were some elements (like the messages on Discord) that could have been left out.

"SK is even more exhausted than when he couldn't even think!"

"BTW let me post this entire internal monologue he's thinking"

Greysentinel365 wrote:"SK is even more exhausted than when he couldn't even think!"

"BTW let me post this entire internal monologue he's thinking"

Very tempting to respond to this...

Anyway, the debate is between ISV and me so if you have complaints PM them. Don't respond in the thread, please.

I expected more from both sides tbh.

Meatpants wrote:I expected more from both sides tbh.

Bump.

It seems like Starkiller was Vader's equal or superior in their lightsaber battle as of TFU II.

Greysentinel365 wrote:"SK is even more exhausted than when he couldn't even think!"

"BTW let me post this entire internal monologue he's thinking"

It's been almost 3 weeks and this response still cracks me up every time.