SS - Starkiller (ArkhamAsylum3) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (Meatpants)

-Starkiller as of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II.
-Qui-Gon Jinn as of Star Wars: Episode 1: The Phantom Menace.

There will be 3 posts per side - of 10K characters each - and a maximum of 2 weeks in which to release a post.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidlines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

-Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
-Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
-All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

......... imao really??    good luck nevertheless.

Both debaters are experts on their characters, so good luck to both

Good luck to both TAEP

I'll kick this debate off short and simple by establishing a canonical chain that proves Qui-Gon is a superior combatant to Starkiller.

I. STARKILLER AND VADER

In TFU2, Starkiller and Darth Vader engage in a lightsaber duel. Starkiller is unable to win until he tricks Vader by taking advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel. Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable." The combatants fight in a prolonged lightsaber duel, and neither demonstrate clear superiority over the other - in fact a stalemate seemed likely. Although Galen has some incredible telekinetic feats, he isn’t able to manifest such feats combatively, or on a consistent basis. So, even if Darth Vader is incapable of matching some of these feats, such as pulling down an ISD, atomising the Salvation, or his one-off against the Emperor, this doesn’t matter because Starkiller has proven that he’s incapable of consistency in these showings. In a one-on-one duel, he is stalemated by Vader, thus it is logical to conclude that Darth Vader and Starkiller are both within the same ballpark combatively.

II. VADER’S GROWTH

Vader experiences significant growth from the events of TFU2 to ROTJ.

Insider #62 wrote:Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

He has “greater mastery over himself and over the Force” since ANH, has “largely freed himself of pain through the Force” and “advanced his lightsaber technique”, thus making him “a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.” Perhaps more importantly, he “had overcome the physical restrictions from the injuries he had received in his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the bulky armour he had to wear to stay alive.” These improvements are put into practice during the events of ESB. Where Vader had no clear superiority over old Ben during ANH, in ESB he is a better swordsman than Luke, who Vader deems to be better than Ben:

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back Radio Drama wrote:"You have been learning. You’re young and quick; you offer me better sport than the old man, Obi-Wan.”

Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook wrote:He sees these attitudes in his son, and more, he sees the blossoming of the powers of a Jedi Knight. Combat with Luke was a challenge, unlike any Vader had faced in many years. At last, he had encountered an opponent worthy of him, swift with a lightsaber and powerful in the ways of the Force.

So, he has removed the limitations of his injuries and suit on his lightsaber abilities, has improved his mastery over himself and the Force, freed himself of pain and advanced his lightsaber technique. The Darth Vader in ESB has all of these advantages over his TFU2 incarnation, who stalemated Starkiller, so it can be safely concluded that this Vader is now a superior to Starkiller.

III. QUI-GON JINN

According to the rules of the debate, the validity of source material is based on the Holocron per the forum guidelines, which states: “All formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron, are law.” From Leeland Chee regarding Lucas’ authority in continuity: “Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered ”G” canon.” Thus, “anything” from Lucas is G-canon, which includes his remarks in the following videos:

”George Lucas” wrote:Then when we move to the Prequel, where there were Jedi and they were full flower and fighting as they were in the past, you know, well trained Jedi, then we had to make the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought.

”George Lucas” wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

In addition, Insider #70 corroborates this with a more explicit explanation:



And George has mentioned this at least one other time as well during the production of the movie:



Note how George and Insider repeatedly emphasise speed and agility; the definition of agility per the Oxford Online Dictionary being “the ability to move quickly and easily”. This makes Qui-Gon “faster” in a sword fight than Ben Kenobi, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Speed in a lightsaber duel is a fairly conclusive decider, and additionally serves as a proxy for power, remembering that Darth Zannah has explained that lightsaber duels rarely last a minute due to the sheer amount of power being used by the combatants to augment their speed and other physical abilities:

”Star Wars: Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil” wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

IV. CONCLUSION

So, according to the highest source of canon, Qui-Gon Jinn is a faster, more agile, more aggressive, more sophisticated, more energetic swordfighter than Vader. Insider relates that Jinn fighting at his best (against Maul) is an example of power and agility well beyond what is seen in the original trilogy, and thus from Vader. Furthermore, as mentioned above, augmentation is a reliable proxy for power, and Insider directly notes that Qui-Gon demonstrates “far more power” than Vader. Therefore, Qui-Gon is far more powerful and a better swordsman than ROTJ Vader, who’s a far more formidable duelist and Force user than his TFU2 incarnation, who stalemated Starkiller.

Qui-Gon wins.

Nice. A short and sweet post to kick things off.

infinite pepes

@Meatpants Interresting post.

Good work, looking forward to seeing this continue.

*Added in a missing image with permission from HP.

@Meatpants

Like you (MP), I’ll kick this debate off with a scaling chain, which I hope shows Starkiller’s obvious immense superiority to Qui-Gon Jinn. I also aim to clarify some details you may have missed when constructing your own scaling chain, and sufficiently explain why - contrary to your hopes - it does not prove Jinn is a better combatant than Galen Marek.

1) Starkiller

In TFU2, Starkiller and Darth Vader engage in a lightsaber duel. Starkiller is unable to win until he tricks Vader by taking advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel. Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable." The combatants fight in a prolonged lightsaber duel, and neither demonstrate clear superiority over the other - in fact a stalemate seemed likely.

The primary premise in your scaling chain - which needs to stand in order for the rest to have relevance - is that Starkiller is comparable to Darth Vader circa The Force Unleashed II. This premise rests on the idea that Starkiller and Vader fought equally, however you’ve left out crucial context provided by TFU 2’s novelization. Just prior to the fight it's stated that:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

So, Starkiller was “exhausted” when he fought Vader - meaning he definitely was not bringing his full strength to bear against his opponent. To elaborate on how exhausted he was, we have the red text, which states that Starkiller had “never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being” meaning he’s more exhausted than he’s ever been, including at the start of the novel where he spent “thirteen days” in a pit not sleeping, nor eating - using up his Force Reserves in order to sustain himself:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:He shied away from both memory and contemplation. There was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake. How many days he had been down the pit he no longer knew, but in that time he had neither eaten nor slept. His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself-his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

[...]

"You're alive," said Darth Vader.

At the voice of his former Master, Starkiller looked up, blinking against the light. Vader's boots were three meters above him, barely visible behind the lights and the grate that separated the pit from the dark room beyond. The Dark Lord loomed like a shadow, a black hole in the shape of a robed man.

Starkiller's throat worked. It was so dry he could barely talk at all.

"How long this time?"

"Thirteen days. Impressive."

Refer to the red text, once again. Starkiller was in a near-death state here - he thought his “very survival was at stake” and considered the possibility that he might very well “never emerge” from the pit “at all”. Him deciding to “shy away from memory and contemplation” due to there being “no point wasting energy on either” further reinforces this point - he’s so weak he doesn’t want to waste energy on anything other than the task at hand.

Overall, Starkiller was only matched by Vader when he was exhausted - in a state even worse than that at the start of the novel, in which he was close to death. This means we cannot scale Starkiller below Vader, and subsequently, there’s no reason to assume Galen is below Jinn.

--- --- ---

Starkiller’s actual potency relative to Vader can be quantified through the following:

(1) In the finale of The Force Unleashed - after Starkiller proclaims to Vader, “I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you.” - he completely destroys him in combat, “forcing him on the back foot” almost immediately, and striking him repeatedly in a short period of time before telekinetically dominating him. This can be used as a reasonable proxy for how a full-strength Starkiller vs Vader would have gone in TFU 2, given that Vader apparently didn’t grow much in the interim, as - according to TFU 2’s Novelization - Starkiller “knew the measure of him” based on their fight in TFU 1.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:“I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped. “That’s something I will teach you now.”

“You can teach me nothing,” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator.

Then the Dark Lord laughed.

It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued.

(2) Just prior to fighting Vader in The Force Unleashed II, Starkiller exhausted himself by performing two feats which both indicate vast superiority to Vader. He (A) atomised The Salvation, and (B) pulverised an army of Starkiller Clones. Feat (A) took basically all that Starkiller had (“all the power of the Force”), and afterward he not only struggled to stand (link) but strained when trying to shift a relatively small ship (link). All these points corroborate the idea that Starkiller was exhausted by the time of performing feat (B), so any amount of power he utilised - even from when he “sought strength from within himself, and pushed outwards with all his might” - would be utterly microbial compared to the power necessary to atomise The Salvation. What’s especially notable about feat (B) - and ties these showings to Vader - is that the army of Starkiller Clones could have “easily overpowered” Vader, per Starkiller. To do one of those scaling chains: Peak Starkiller > Atomising The Salvation >>>>>>>> Wiping out the army of Starkiller Clones >>>> Defeating Vader. Not only does this prove Starkiller would dominate Vader in combat, but it also acts as an expansion upon the exhaustion argument (more evidence Starkiller was exhausted - e.g. the ship feat - is contained within the paragraph).

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:Just seconds remained before the Salvation's fore section hit Kamino. The facility was in close focus ahead of him, and he imagined he could see Juno's eyes widening on seeing him, haloed with his Force shield on top of her precious ship. Did she know it was him, or did she wonder at this strange apparition? Did she imagine that he was her death coming at last, from the skies instead of Darth Vader's hand?

Starkiller closed his eyes. He didn't have time to wonder what was going through her mind. He had to think of something fast, or Juno was going to die.

There was only one thing he could do, and although he knew he wasn't likely to survive, he didn't hesitate. What was death when the love of his former life was at stake? Besides, anything was possible. Dying, as he had thought once before, always seemed to bring out the best in him.

With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him - and blew it into a billion pieces.

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:He sought strength from within himself, and pushed outward with all his might. Clones went flying. The empty rubes from which they had emerged shattered into millions of pieces. Platforms buckled and fell with reverberant crashes. The interior of the cloning tower rang as though struck with a giant hammer. Every muscle in his body shook with the effort of it.

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend.

The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it.

(3) Directly after his previously mentioned stomping of Vader in The Force Unleashed, Starkiller proves his vast superiority to Vader once again. Galen manages to defend against Sidious’s Force Lightning for up to 20-30 seconds (depending on which version of the game you go by; Wii, XBOX) when the latter was fuelled by his “desperation”. Note that the Lightning was powerful enough to bypass Sidious’s defences causing him to “howl with lascivious pain”. Given the utterly massive disparity between Vader and Sheev (that you definitely subscribe to) it should be very clear that Vader doesn’t have a hope in hell of replicating this feat, and for that matter, neither does Jinn - they don’t even come close.

--- --- ---

Now, despite all indicators supporting a massive disparity between Galen and Vader, and an easy explanation existing for their fight, you apparently don’t buy into the argument. And your justification for why is… totally baffling:

So, even if Darth Vader is incapable of matching some of these feats, such as pulling down an ISD, atomising the Salvation, or his one-off against the Emperor, this doesn’t matter because Starkiller has proven that he’s incapable of consistency in these showings.

Wouldn’t the fact that Starkiller repeatedly performs these feats, make them consistent? Your whole argument against them is utterly ridiculous; we have an easy explanation for why Starkiller was equalled by Vader in saber combat which you’ve just arbitrarily chosen to ignore. Defaulting to “all these feats are just inconsistent” (they’re all far more numerous than his fight with Vader, lol, if anything they’re the consistent ones) is a cop-out, and you’ve provided absolutely no reason for why I should buy into the claim.

2) Darth Vader

Vader being utterly eclipsed by Starkiller is a total contrast to the disparity between him and Darth Maul. In the comic Resurrection, Vader faces Maul and does pretty well all things considered. They have an extended bout across many pages (way longer than your typical comic fight), Maul credits Vader for holding his ground against him (“Surprising Jedi. You stand your ground against me.”), Vader manages to break Maul’s saber staff in two, and finally, Vader manages to last long enough to be put into a scenario where he can abuse his superior durability to win the fight.

Spoiler:

--- --- ---

To pre-emptively address a potential counter-argument:

Note how George and Insider repeatedly emphasise speed and agility; the definition of agility per the Oxford Online Dictionary being “the ability to move quickly and easily”. This makes Qui-Gon “faster” in a sword fight than Ben Kenobi, Darth Vader, and Luke Skywalker. Speed in a lightsaber duel is a fairly conclusive decider...

The quotes you cited for Vader being much slower than the Prequel trilogy Jedi do not conflict with this fight. While speed is a “fairly conclusive decider”, it is not the ultimate decider. Maul clearly shows greater speed and skill than Vader, but the latter compensates in other areas (e.g. strength and durability). Moreover, we have no clue how being “much faster” than someone actually manifests itself combatively - it could be that the slower opponent can still contend, and indeed, Vader does show the ability to keep up with Maul’s speed.

--- --- ---

As a final point on Resurrection, while it is Non-Canon, that’s irrelevant to my argument as it’s explicitly stated to be “the answer” to the fan debate - meaning it’s an accurate display of what would have happened had the fight taken place in continuity.

Starwars.com - Tales #9 Item Description wrote:Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the battle begin!

Starwars.com - September 2001 Comics wrote:Star Wars Tales #9 sets out the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader? Sith doctrine clearly states that there can only be one survivor in this match.

And, as a final preemptive rebuttal, this is not ROTJ Vader (as some have claimed): the repeated mentions of the Death Star plans and other statements, indicate that this is indeed ANH Vader. And no, the fact that this is “the answer” to the fan debate does not contradict this; it can still answer the fan debate even if this is ANH Vader, as Vader winning the fight and subsequently becoming “far more formidable” indicates he’d win with greater ease as of ROTJ.

3) Darth Maul

In The Phantom Menace, Darth Maul shows considerable superiority to Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi. On Naboo, he “outmanuvered (Jinn and Kenobi) at every turn”, “worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease”, “anticipated their moves with ease”, and was “disgusted” by their lack of a challenge.

The Phantom Menace Script wrote:The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once, flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hanger deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease.

The Phantom Menace Junior Novelization wrote:The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.

Maul’s superiority is made evident within the choreography; he’s constantly knocking one of them to the side via physical strikes or pushing them away with his strength. This indicates that Maul would decisively beat Jinn by himself which is evident by Jinn’s placement as a 7, and Maul’s placement as an 8 on the PT tiering system.

4) Conclusion

Galen’s vast superiority to Vader (and fight with Sidious) indicates he is a significantly better combatant than Darth Maul who is considerably better than Jinn.

Tl;dr Galen >> Maul >> Jinn.

Starkiller obliterates Jinn with a wave of his hand.

Great post, didn’t expect this much from you

Added in the Resurrection images - the post is now fully complete.

STARKILLER'S INCONSISTENCIES

EXHAUSTION

AA3 wrote:This premise rests on the idea that Starkiller and Vader fought equally, however you’ve left out crucial context provided by TFU 2’s novelization.

Including the context you omit from the very sentence you quote?

The Force Unleashed II Novelisation wrote:He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.

So, he’s regaining his strength even as he’s thinking that. Moving on.

AA3 wrote:To elaborate on how exhausted he was, we have the red text, which states that Starkiller had “never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being” meaning he’s more exhausted than he’s ever been, including at the start of the novel where he spent “thirteen days” in a pit not sleeping, nor eating - using up his Force Reserves in order to sustain himself:

--- --- ---

Refer to the red text, once again. Starkiller was in a near-death state here - he thought his “very survival was at stake” and considered the possibility that he might very well “never emerge” from the pit “at all”. Him deciding to “shy away from memory and contemplation” due to there being “no point wasting energy on either” further reinforces this point - he’s so weak he doesn’t want to waste energy on anything other than the task at hand.

Prove Starkiller was in a near-death state. His survival is clearly at stake because he had no idea how long he’d be in the pit. Prove that Starkiller only started shying away from memory and contemplation because his reserves were running low; what if he was doing that from the very start because he knew what the test was? We know he did, because his first words to Vader are “How long this time?” Without any context from Vader. In fact, this is a test he’s been run through before, making it more likely he’d conserve as much energy as possible from the very start. There is no evidence that Starkiller is at “near-death”, and thus low on Force reserves, rendering this comparison moot.

--- --- ---

AA3 wrote:Overall, Starkiller was only matched by Vader when he was exhausted - in a state even worse than that at the start of the novel, in which he was close to death. This means we cannot scale Starkiller below Vader, and subsequently, there’s no reason to assume Galen is below Jinn.

He was exhausted, but per the context you omitted from the passage his strength was coming back anyway. There’s also no other subsequent mention of his exhaustion except for a moment where he notes his heart is pounding (and that’s during a break in the fighting). It’s hard to imagine that someone who’s so exhausted would continue fighting seemingly without issue in a prolonged duel. Additionally, you failed to prove why exhaustion impacts augmentation to the extent you’re suggesting. The burden of proof is on you to explain why Starkiller’s exhaustion is impacting his augmentation/performance against Darth Vader to the extent that he goes from, in your words, having a “vast superiority” to being stalemated. Starkiller demonstrates no difficulty whatsoever accessing his power and fighting Vader, and the evidence in favour of him running on fumes and being severely inhibited by his exhaustion is backed by a singular quote saying he's regaining his strength.

AA3 wrote:(1) In the finale of The Force Unleashed - after Starkiller proclaims to Vader, “I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you.” - he completely destroys him in combat, “forcing him on the back foot” almost immediately, and striking him repeatedly in a short period of time before telekinetically dominating him. This can be used as a reasonable proxy for how a full-strength Starkiller vs Vader would have gone in TFU 2, given that Vader apparently didn’t grow much in the interim, as - according to TFU 2’s Novelization - Starkiller “knew the measure of him” based on their fight in TFU 1.

Starkiller knowing the measure of Vader does not indicate in any way that Vader didn’t grow. Looking at the quote in context:

The Force Unleashed II Novelisation wrote:Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

It says Vader knows the measure of Starkiller from their last duel - except Starkiller is now more powerful than he was during the last duel. So, if Vader can know the measure of his opponent despite said opponent becoming more powerful in the interim, the reverse can also be true. Thus, the quote does not prove that Vader had no growth.

AA3 wrote:(2) Just prior to fighting Vader in The Force Unleashed II, Starkiller exhausted himself by performing two feats which both indicate vast superiority to Vader. He (A) atomised The Salvation, and (B) pulverised an army of Starkiller Clones. Feat (A) took basically all that Starkiller had (“all the power of the Force”), and afterward he not only struggled to stand (link ) but strained when trying to shift a relatively small ship (link ). All these points corroborate the idea that Starkiller was exhausted by the time of performing feat (B), so any amount of power he utilised - even from when he “sought strength from within himself, and pushed outwards with all his might” - would be utterly microbial compared to the power necessary to atomise The Salvation. What’s especially notable about feat (B) - and ties these showings to Vader - is that the army of Starkiller Clones could have “easily overpowered” Vader, per Starkiller. To do one of those scaling chains: Peak Starkiller > Atomising The Salvation >>>>>>>> Wiping out the army of Starkiller Clones >>>> Defeating Vader. Not only does this prove Starkiller would dominate Vader in combat, but it also acts as an expansion upon the exhaustion argument (more evidence Starkiller was exhausted - e.g. the ship feat - is contained within the paragraph).

Why are these feats relevant to his exhaustion when (1) the passage referencing his exhaustion also notes how he’s also recovering from it and (2) he proceeds to fight a protracted duel with Vader with seemingly no difficulty? There’s no indication he was running low on Force reserves. It could just mean that Starkiller has a massive pool of reserves to draw from. He demonstrates this repeatedly, as you yourself point out. Even against the clones, he seeks power within himself and destroys them. After that, he feels exhausted, but also starts regaining his strength. If he was running on fumes, he wouldn’t have anything left in the tank to fight Vader - but he did - and he fought Vader without any glaring problems.

As mentioned above, Starkiller doesn’t know what Vader’s capable of until he realises Vader had learnt from his mistakes, so his speculations over how Vader would fare against the clones come from his previous experience on Vader, not his future experience.

--- --- ---

THE EMPEROR

AA3 wrote:(3) Directly after his previously mentioned stomping of Vader in The Force Unleashed, Starkiller proves his vast superiority to Vader once again. Galen manages to defend against Sidious’s Force Lightning for up to 20-30 seconds (depending on which version of the game you go by; Wii , XBOX ) when the latter was fuelled by his “desperation”. Note that the Lightning was powerful enough to bypass Sidious’s defences causing him to “howl with lascivious pain”. Given the utterly massive disparity between Vader and Sheev (that you definitely subscribe to) it should be very clear that Vader doesn’t have a hope in hell of replicating this feat, and for that matter, neither does Jinn - they don’t even come close.

Galen wasn't mitigating Palpatine's attack or defending against it. As soon as he stepped in front of the Emperor it immediately tore through any defense he did have up, "Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body." So it was more like Galen having a moment of oneness that allowed him to retain consciousness through the pain. The only reason why Sidious was coming into contact with his own lightning was due to Galen literally walking up to him and joining hands, "Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain." So Sidious only suffers his lightning after Galen comes into contact, after which the Emperor starts enjoying himself sexually.

Starkiller does not defend against the Emperor's lightning, it completely rips through any defense he did have and cuts all the nerves in his body instantaneously. Starkiller having a one-off sacrifice moment that allows him to remain conscious in the face of the Emperor's lightning is not proof of anything, least of all that he's capable of conventionally defending against such an attack as you've claimed he can.

--- ---- ----

AA3 wrote:Wouldn’t the fact that Starkiller repeatedly performs these feats, make them consistent? Your whole argument against them is utterly ridiculous; we have an easy explanation for why Starkiller was equalled by Vader in saber combat which you’ve just arbitrarily chosen to ignore. Defaulting to “all these feats are just inconsistent” (they’re all far more numerous than his fight with Vader, lol, if anything they’re the consistent ones) is a cop-out, and you’ve provided absolutely no reason for why I should buy into the claim.

A commonly recurring theme for you throughout what we've done so far is that you continue to omit context. This is what I posted, with green highlighting what you quoted:

Valkpants wrote:In TFU2, Starkiller and Darth Vader engage in a lightsaber duel. Starkiller is unable to win until he tricks Vader by taking advantage of a wound inflicted by Juno on Vader’s chest panel. Until that point, Galen was unable to gain an edge against Vader, and admits the best he could do is create a stalemate, "Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable." The combatants fight in a prolonged lightsaber duel, and neither demonstrate clear superiority over the other - in fact a stalemate seemed likely. Although Galen has some incredible telekinetic feats, he isn’t able to manifest such feats combatively, or on a consistent basis. So, even if Darth Vader is incapable of matching some of these feats, such as pulling down an ISD, atomising the Salvation, or his one-off against the Emperor, this doesn’t matter because Starkiller has proven that he’s incapable of consistency in these showings. In a one-on-one duel, he is stalemated by Vader, thus it is logical to conclude that Darth Vader and Starkiller are both within the same ballpark combatively.

Admittingly I should have been more clear from a technical sense, but my point is clear: Starkiller can't replicate this kind of power combatively. He can't pull an ISD or atomise his surroundings mid-duel. It's like saying Anakin can perform his theta-storm feat whenever he wants. This makes sense; Starkiller not being able to ragdoll Vader cuz he's tired but not really because he's fighting no problem but he is kinda exhausted but also regaining his strength... - doesn't make sense.

RESURRECTION

AA3 wrote:And, as a final preemptive rebuttal, this is not ROTJ Vader (as some have claimed): the repeated mentions of the Death Star plans and other statements, indicate that this is indeed ANH Vader. And no, the fact that this is “the answer” to the fan debate does not contradict this; it can still answer the fan debate even if this is ANH Vader, as Vader winning the fight and subsequently becoming “far more formidable” indicates he’d win with greater ease as of ROTJ.

The setting is irrelevant when it's the "brawl to settle it all!" and the answer for the fans as to who is "tougher". It's an Infinities fight, it does not take place in continuity, and thus the setup to the fight is totally irrelevant to the fan answer.

ROTJ Vader, who's far more formidable than the Vader who stalemated Starkiller got his ass whooped by Maul.

DARTH MAUL

AA3 wrote:Maul’s superiority is made evident within the choreography; he’s constantly knocking one of them to the side via physical strikes or pushing them away with his strength. This indicates that Maul would decisively beat Jinn by himself which is evident by Jinn’s placement as a 7, and Maul’s placement as an 8 on the PT tiering system.

Unless you're suggesting that Resurrection Vader beat Maul due to being a better duelist/fighter, instead of Maul being overconfident in defeating his opponent (a recurring trait) you haven't proven why Vader's showing is better than Jinn's, or why that matters when Vader has scaled significantly above his TFU 2 incarnation, and thus above Starkiller. Either way, Jinn is operating above Starkiller's power and skill level.

CONCLUSION

1. You haven't showed sufficient evidence to suggest Starkiller wasn't operating at his normal power level during his duel with Vader. You tried to claim Starkiller "defended" against the Emperor's lightning when the lightning actually tore right through any barriers he had, the only reason he kept going was because of his willpower and sacrificial intent. So no, Starkiller cannot defend himself against the Emperor's lightning at all.

2. Resurrection settles the fan debate of "Darth Vader vs Darth Maul", no strings attached. The setting doesn't matter since it takes place in Infinities, not continuity. It doesn't make sense for it to be a vastly inferior version of Vader.

3. You've proven that Maul is > Jinn, congratulations. I have no need to respond to this, because I don't disagree with it. What I do disagree with is that this link has anything to do with Starkiller > Jinn, since ROTJ Vader has scaled well above his TFU 2 incarnation.

Good post, I should have a rebuttal out some time next week.

@Meatpants

1. You haven't showed sufficient evidence to suggest Starkiller wasn't operating at his normal power level during his duel with Vader. You tried to claim Starkiller "defended" against the Emperor's lightning when the lightning actually tore right through any barriers he had, the only reason he kept going was because of his willpower and sacrificial intent. So no, Starkiller cannot defend himself against the Emperor's lightning at all.

2. Resurrection settles the fan debate of "Darth Vader vs Darth Maul", no strings attached. The setting doesn't matter since it takes place in Infinities, not continuity. It doesn't make sense for it to be a vastly inferior version of Vader.

3. You've proven that Maul is > Jinn, congratulations. I have no need to respond to this, because I don't disagree with it. What I do disagree with is that this link has anything to do with Starkiller > Jinn, since ROTJ Vader has scaled well above his TFU 2 incarnation.

https://youtu.be/JfdPgYEQ_lc?t=69

1) Starkiller

A) Exhaustion

Including the context you omit from the very sentence you quote?

[...]

So, he’s regaining his strength even as he’s thinking that. Moving on.

The fact that Starkiller regained some strength is not mutually exclusive with the idea that he's still highly weakened. The novel indicates that Starkiller basically unleashed the totality of his power when he destroyed The Salvation - with Starkiller fearing he might die in the process - and then the text further comments after his fight with the Starkiller Clones that he "felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned" indicating that his reserves were almost fully depleted. This is without even commenting on him being more exhausted than he was at the start of the novel. Recovery won't be a fast process - he's not about to regain all his reserves in about a minute or so - especially when it's stressed multiple times that food, rest, and meditation are required to get back up to full strength (specifically, several days of rest); Kenobi is still exhausted hours after his duel with Anakin on Mustafar; and Galen after re-directing an ISD, and frying The Core, in TFU 1 wasn't sure whether a week of sleep would bring him back to his peak. Any amount of power Galen did recover was presumably minuscule by comparison to the power he has when he's at his best.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:LYING UNCONSCIOUS IN THE SHADOW’S MEDBAY, LUKE SKYWALKER looked more dead than alive. He was only half bathed and still stained with blood. But the wounds would heal, Ben knew, and the strength would return after a few good meals.

Fate of the Jedi: Backlash wrote:Luke felt her tense. He backed away on his contact. More dimly, he could sense her looking around in sudden paranoia, but her emotions gradually settled.

She had sensed him but not identified him. Her control of the Force was limited in certain areas, clearly.

Sure now where her rockfall trap lay and where she intended to wait, Luke withdrew and opened his eyes.

He looked up at his son. Ben stared at him, a worried expression on his face.

"What is it?"

"You’re pale, Dad."

"Am I?" Luke tried to get a sense of his condition.

He was tired, more tired than he should be after such a mundane effort in the Force. Clearly, he was not yet recovered from his exertions in the Maw. He needed days of uninterrupted rest, and he wasn’t getting them.

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction wrote:He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth.

Lone Wolf - A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke wrote:Still physically and emotionally exhausted from his death duel with Anakin, Obi-Wan wasn't sure.

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Was that enough? Would anything more be asked of him today? He was so tired. A week of sleep might not revive him.

--- --- ---

Prove Starkiller was in a near-death state. His survival is clearly at stake because he had no idea how long he’d be in the pit.

Ignoring the very obvious fact that Starkiller "shied away from memory and contemplation" to fully focus on the task at hand because his survival was at stake - i.e. present action because of present circumstances, not some future failing of reserves (though I'll dive into more detail on that later) - indicating that his reserves were very much running low, there are a few other points to note:

(1) The task was designed to press Starkiller to his limits/test his endurance, and at the start of the novel we witness its very end (i.e. once he'd been tested to his limits), so it's pretty much a guarantee Starkiller was running low on reserves - Vader isn't setting him tasks that aren't immensely challenging.

(2) As a continuation of point (1), we know that Vader has plenty of data to draw off of, and had gradually been upping the difficulty of the tests each time - Starkiller had to endure longer and longer periods of time in isolation without basic resources - so it's basically a given that he has an idea of how to push Starkiller to the very limit.

(3) The text emphasises Starkiller's struggle with his "fallible body", "weak mind" and "faltering spirit" within the present showing that he was on the verge of failure then and there - not in the future (the text even immediately follows up by saying that he may "never emerge at all" from the pit).

All of the overwhelming evidence says Starkiller was highly weakened by his experience within the pit, and the idea that he wasn't seems wholly conjecture based and without a scrap of evidence to support it.

Prove that Starkiller only started shying away from memory and contemplation because his reserves were running low; what if he was doing that from the very start because he knew what the test was? We know he did, because his first words to Vader are “How long this time?” Without any context from Vader. In fact, this is a test he’s been run through before, making it more likely he’d conserve as much energy as possible from the very start. There is no evidence that Starkiller is at “near-death”, and thus low on Force reserves, rendering this comparison moot.

What...? Memory and contemplation have nothing to do with using up Force Reserves; "wasting energy on either" is referring to the pointlessness of focusing on anything other than the task at hand - not him literally depleting Force Energy from thinking (lol). Clearly, the actual reason why Starkiller was against contemplation/memory has nothing to do with energy conservation - meaning that shying away from memory/contemplation at the start of the task wouldn't have made a difference - it was because memory/contemplation would break his concentration from the deep meditation trance he was in to ensure his survival (which is made very clear in the text). As to the relevance of that point here, Starkiller wouldn't consider the task to require absolute focus if he had anywhere close to his full reserves - it would be virtually effortless if he did - and the text even comments that he "shied away from memory and contemplation" specifically because his "very survival was at stake".

--- --- ---

There’s also no other subsequent mention of his exhaustion except for a moment where he notes his heart is pounding (and that’s during a break in the fighting). It’s hard to imagine that someone who’s so exhausted would continue fighting seemingly without issue in a prolonged duel.

That doesn't preclude him from still being exhausted/hindered - his exhaustion is explicitly shown in his inferior performance in this fight compared to other instances. Sean Williams generally has a habit of not repeatedly acknowledging debilitating circumstances in fights. For example, in TFU 1 after Galen re-directs an ISD Williams notes his exhaustion once during Galen's fight with The Core ("still weary from his efforts with the Star Destroyer"), and then again after the fight ("he was so tired"), but doesn't comment on it extensively beyond that (i.e. it's not repeatedly mentioned within the fight), even though we know it was affecting his combative prowess (that's stated).

This also seems like a blatant double standard given that in our last SS you spent a good portion of it arguing that Vader was hindered by his injuries when Starkiller ragdolled him, despite that not being explicitly stated. Constant commentary is not needed in order for us to know things - we can make reasonable inferences about the effect of certain factors on a character's combative performance without it.

Additionally, you failed to prove why exhaustion impacts augmentation to the extent you’re suggesting.

Why wouldn't it? Virtually any character provided you push them to the limits of their reserves can drop multiple tiers. For example, Luke Skywalker on Sinkhole Station is so tired that he's given a good fight by Olaris Rhea and Vestara - of all people - who're most definitely tiers below him at peak.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:A wave of danger sense rolled up Ben’s spine. He turned to find his father already standing beside the gurney, his lightsaber in hand and his attention fixed on the entry hatch. Ben could see by how low he held his hand, and by the fatigue in his eyes, that his father was still weak. But he could also feel his father drawing on the Force, pulling it into himself to enliven atrophied muscles and restore dead synapses.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:LUKE WAS ALMOST THERE … AS LONG AS THERE WAS THE NEXT SECTION of equipment-littered corridor, the next panel of self-lighting wall, the next doorway they passed, the next "whatever" his son chose for him. He was sustaining himself only through the strength of the Force. It was pouring into him from all sides, filling him with a blazing furnace of pain, devouring him even as it empowered him, burning him alive even as it saved him.

Luke would have liked to think he had never been quite this tired, to believe he would never again find himself in circumstances quite this desperate. But the truth was, he had been here many times before—in the wampa cave on Hoth, during the Battle of Mindor, on the approach to Qoribu in the Gyuel system in the Unknown Regions. And Luke had no doubt that he would be here many times again. In the years and the decades to come, there would be a hundred occasions when he thought he was dying and a dozen times when others believed he already had.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:Ben let the sentence trail off as his father raised a hand and used the Force to push the smoking circle of semi-attached viewport outward, opening a hole large enough to serve as an escape route. Instead of leading the way through it, Luke started toward the back of the room, angling toward the corner opposite Ben’s.

"We need to take one alive," Luke said.

"Alive?" Ben echoed. "Check your vitals readout. You’re barely strong enough to make a run for the Shadow—much less take prisoners."

"True—and feeling better every second." Luke pointed at the hatch. "Ben, we need to find out who those people are—and who sent them. That’s the key to figuring this place out."

[...]

They realized their mistake the instant their faceplates darkened and leapt into a series of evasive tumbles. But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful. He followed the older Sith out into the hangar, taking advantage of her momentary blindness to lop off pieces—first a leg, then a sword arm, and finally her helmet.

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss wrote:The exit panel opened. Luke found himself standing faceplate-to-faceplate with four surprised enemies. Two were small and female, and two were large and male. He put a trio of blaster bolts through the largest male's chest and ignited his lightsaber in the faceplate of the other male, then retreated to the rear of the lift and used the Force to depress the activation lever.

Luke had expected the female survivors to be so shocked by his attack that they would leap for cover and take a moment to regroup before coming after him. He should have known better. These were Sith, and they reacted with all the killing instinct that implied. Even before the exit panel had begun to drop back into place, they were diving into the lift with him, each going to a different corner so they could attack from two different directions.

Luke fired at their former prisoner-he could tell it was the same girl by the furious eyes burning behind her faceplate-then saw the bolt come flying back when she activated the lightsaber in her hands. The invisible hand of the Force slammed him into the lift's rear wall, and the older woman stepped into view, striking for his midsection.

Luke barely brought his lightsaber around to block. In the next instant, he sensed a new danger as the thin glass dagger on her equipment belt left its sheath and came sailing for his ribs. He twisted aside in time to avoid taking the attack directly, but the blade was sharp enough to gouge even the flexible armor of a combat vac suit before it snapped.

By then, the girl was on him again, thrusting low with her lightsaber. He blocked by countering, slipping a Force-enhanced thrust kick under her attack and sending her sailing away. Still, she did her best to drive the strike home, dragging the tip of her blade across his chest to open a smoking gash that immediately began to vent a thin line of vapor.

But the slash that actually wounded Luke, that cut through his suit clear down to the flesh, he did not see-did not even feel. He simply sensed the older Sith dancing in, opposite the girl, taking advantage of his divided attention to bring her scarlet blade sweeping toward his throat. He dropped to a knee, driving his own blade up at her mid-section, then cursed as she twisted away with nothing but a smoking furrow across the belly of her vac suit.

And that was when Luke noticed the blood boiling up in front of his faceplate. He glanced down and saw a long flap of suit fluttering in the light of his helmet lamp, already venting blood, air, and sweat. What had opened this second, larger gash, he had no idea.

Knowing his enemies would be pressing their advantage already, Luke rolled into a forward somersault. He came up on the opposite side of the lift, spinning and firing, using the Force to lift himself toward the ceiling, his lightsaber tracing a helix of protection around his body. Combat vac suits were designed to isolate and self-seal, but only to a degree. Already Luke could feel the cold of the void seeping in through the gash in his abdomen, and he could tell by the subtle ringing in his ears that his suit was losing pressure.

Luke glimpsed a dark curve tumbling toward him as the two women divided and moved to flank him, and he understood. These Sith wielded the Force like a third limb, using it as naturally as their own hands. While he was focused on their lightsabers, one of them had slipped her black parang out of its sheath and attacked.

Luke stopped spinning and blocked the parang, his lightsaber slicing it in two. The two Sith women leapt in to finish him. He turned his blaster pistol on the girl, driving her back with a flurry of bolts aimed low-then-high-then-low, too fast for her to block. One bolt skimmed off her helmet, then another burned through her boot, leaving her hopping as she vented smoke and vapor.

Then the older woman was on him again, slashing first from one side, then the other with her scarlet blade, driving in close to pummel him from thigh to throat with knee, elbow, and helmet. Luke dropped his blaster pistol to wield his lightsaber with both hands, blocking left and parrying right, kicking at her knees and slamming at her throat with both forearms.

Through their vac suit armor, neither of them was taking much damage-but it would not be long before someone slipped, and when that happened, the end would come quickly. Luke continued to strike and counterstrike, his head starting to spin as his air scrubbers strained to keep pace with his exertions and the atmosphere bleeding from his gashed suit. The Sith woman fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing. It was all Luke could do to stay between her and the wall, and he used the Force to keep her trapped in front of him, using her like a shield to keep the girl from slipping around to attack his flanks.

How long ago the exit panel had opened beside him, Luke had no idea. All he knew was that over his helmet speaker, he heard Ben warning him that the Jade Shadow was opening fire on Ship. As the lift filled with bright blue strobing, he glanced toward the wall to keep his faceplate's blast-tinting from being activated by the Shadow's big laser cannons. The Sith instinctively turned toward the light to see what was happening.

They realized their mistake the instant their faceplates darkened and leapt into a series of evasive tumbles. But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful. He followed the older Sith out into the hangar, taking advantage of her momentary blindness to lop off pieces-first a leg, then a sword arm, and finally her helmet.

Expecting the ferocious girl to be on him the instant her faceplate cleared, Luke spun to meet her with a clearing sweep of his blade-and found her a full thirty meters away, floating above a dusty old Soro-Suub StarTripper that looked like it could have been the prototype for Lando's famous Lady Luck. Her partially darkened faceplate was turned toward the lift area, perhaps because she was searching for something she could use to continue her attack from a safe distance.

But she seemed to feel Luke's gaze and realize the odds had turned against her, and she slowly looked back toward him. It was impossible to see inside her faceplate from that distance, but Luke had the sense that she was watching him carefully, either adjusting a previous appraisal of him-or simply awaiting his next attack.

When Luke remained motionless, the girl ignited her lightsaber and raised it in salute. He acknowledged the gesture with a dip of his head. She held the salute for a moment longer, then deactivated her blade and did a backward Force flip, vanishing from sight behind the dusty StarTripper.

B) Full Power

Starkiller knowing the measure of Vader does not indicate in any way that Vader didn’t grow. Looking at the quote in context:

It says Vader knows the measure of Starkiller from their last duel - except Starkiller is now more powerful than he was during the last duel. So, if Vader can know the measure of his opponent despite said opponent becoming more powerful in the interim, the reverse can also be true. Thus, the quote does not prove that Vader had no growth.

Ignoring the obvious point that Starkiller was exhausted (making him - in this instance - incomparable to his original self), you need to substantiate that the Starkiller Clone is > the original Starkiller - I'm not inclined to just accept it without sourcing. Plus, Starkiller being a bit more powerful doesn't preclude Vader from still being able to judge him reasonably well from the last duel - provided they're roughly on the same level. By contrast, what you're arguing is that Vader is a literal stomp gap above his previous self, yet Starkiller just fails to mention this, and even goes out of his way to note that - while Vader's armour has improved, he's fighting more cautiously, and he's learned from his mistakes - the previous duel is a reasonable data point. Yeah, right, that makes total sense...

Galen stomping Vader in TFU 1 demonstrably is likewise indicative of how a full-strength Starkiller vs Vader would have gone in TFU 2.

--- --- ---

Why are these feats relevant to his exhaustion when (1) the passage referencing his exhaustion also notes how he’s also recovering from it and (2) he proceeds to fight a protracted duel with Vader with seemingly no difficulty? There’s no indication he was running low on Force reserves.

The feats are relevant to his exhaustion because they show how a full power Starkiller would do against Vader and also indicate how great of a quantity of his reserves he used up - he unleashes his full potency twice over.

It could just mean that Starkiller has a massive pool of reserves to draw from. He demonstrates this repeatedly, as you yourself point out. Even against the clones, he seeks power within himself and destroys them.

The fact that Starkiller managed to dig deep against The Clones in order to finish them does not mean he could do the same against Vader, by which point he's even more exhausted - especially considering that he'd basically fully dissipated his energies (see the opening of my post for details).

After that, he feels exhausted, but also starts regaining his strength. If he was running on fumes, he wouldn’t have anything left in the tank to fight Vader - but he did - and he fought Vader without any glaring problems.

Not being mentioned repeatedly =/= it not impacting him (as substantiated earlier). Moreover, I even specifically noted within the paragraph that an instance of Starkiller's exhaustion affecting him exists - even as early as after The Salvation feat - (link), which you - for some reason - have chosen to ignore.

As mentioned above, Starkiller doesn’t know what Vader’s capable of until he realises Vader had learnt from his mistakes, so his speculations over how Vader would fare against the clones come from his previous experience on Vader, not his future experience.

Starkiller knows Vader's power level; he battled him with Force Lightning in the opening of the game (link) and novel and watched as Vader attempted to pull back his TIE Fighter with Telekinesis. Vader's modifications to his fighting style (read: no increase in power) to help him deal with an entirely different opponent are irrelevant to Starkiller's opinion on how he'd fare against the army of Clones - he'd be "easily overpowered" by them, and consequently, "easily overpowered" by a full-strength Starkiller.

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm.

But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong.

Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:An invisible fist gripped the starfighter. Starkiller increased the thrust. His determination met Darth Vader's rage, and for an instant he was unsure which would win. Then all resistance fell away, and the TIE fighter leapt for the sky.

--- --- ---

Galen wasn't mitigating Palpatine's attack or defending against it. As soon as he stepped in front of the Emperor it immediately tore through any defense he did have up, "Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body."

Uh, all your quote states is that the Lightning impacted on Galen's body; it doesn't comment on his defences either way. As for how we know he mitigated the Lightning's effects... how else would he have survived? Your proposition suggests his defences were entirely useless, but if that were the case how was he not incinerated? The most logical explanation - which explains this - is that he blocked enough of the Lightning's potency in order for the remainder to only cause him extreme pain which is supported by him being in a typical tutaminis posture and the Lightning actively being caught in his hands in the videogame.

So it was more like Galen having a moment of oneness that allowed him to retain consciousness through the pain.

A "moment of oneness"??? That's complete conjecture - your idea that this moment was a one-off is not substantiated by you or ever implied anywhere within the TFU source material (that I'm aware of). Galen explicitly only enters any kind of amped state after the Lightning Clash (when he blows up).

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava. He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome.

C) Inconsistencies

A commonly recurring theme for you throughout what we've done so far is that you continue to omit context. This is what I posted, with green highlighting what you quoted:

Admittingly I should have been more clear from a technical sense, but my point is clear: Starkiller can't replicate this kind of power combatively. He can't pull an ISD or atomise his surroundings mid-duel. It's like saying Anakin can perform his theta-storm feat whenever he wants. This makes sense; Starkiller not being able to ragdoll Vader cuz he's tired but not really because he's fighting no problem but he is kinda exhausted but also regaining his strength... - doesn't make sense.

...you know, rather than just flaunting your rhetoric, you could actually make an argument. I agree that SK's ISD feat isn't combat applicable (though, I haven't mentioned it anywhere in this discussion, so that's irrelevant) in the sense that SK did the feat over a prolonged period of time (i.e. the energies were summoned over an extended duration - not instantaneously like in combat). However, Starkiller summons the energies necessary to atomise The Salvation and defend against Sidious's Lightning, within a second or so. These feats are clear, repeated instances of Starkiller instantly being able to summon such power within a combative scenario. Your dismissal to both them rests on citing a completely different character (Anakin) with no elaboration on how he and Starkiller are the same, and also citing a duel which happened after Starkiller had performed a gauntlet of incredibly taxing feats. The readers of this debate have no reason to buy your argument, and quite frankly, neither do I. To re-state from my opener: "Defaulting to 'all these feats are just inconsistent' is a cop-out, and you’ve provided absolutely no reason for why I should buy into the claim."

2) Darth Vader

The setting is irrelevant when it's the "brawl to settle it all!" and the answer for the fans as to who is "tougher".

Addressed in my opener: "The fact that this is 'the answer' to the fan debate does not contradict this (i.e. the idea that it's ANH Vader); it can still answer the fan debate even if this is ANH Vader, as Vader winning the fight and subsequently becoming 'far more formidable' indicates he’d win with greater ease as of ROTJ."

It's an Infinities fight, it does not take place in continuity, and thus the setup to the fight is totally irrelevant to the fan answer.

Why is the setup irrelevant to the fight? You're arguing that the comic - by setting itself in an ANH time period when it's ROTJ Vader - is being deliberately misleading. No reader sees the multiple indicators it's ANH Vader within the comic and goes: "Nah, it's ROTJ Vader." We don't just default it to his prime because it's N-Canon (by that logic I could claim this is TCW Maul); the context of the story does still need to be considered.

3) Darth Maul

Unless you're suggesting that Resurrection Vader beat Maul due to being a better duelist/fighter, instead of Maul being overconfident in defeating his opponent (a recurring trait) you haven't proven why Vader's showing is better than Jinn's, or why that matters when Vader has scaled significantly above his TFU 2 incarnation, and thus above Starkiller. Either way, Jinn is operating above Starkiller's power and skill level.

The point isn't necessarily that Vader is > Maul in duelling - he wins through other factors - or that he performed better than Jinn; it's more that Vader competes much more closely with Maul than all indicators suggest he would against Starkiller, so Starkiller is >> Maul, and therefore >>>> Jinn.

4) Conclusion

https://youtu.be/yqMg-U1hSHI?t=59 - 1:13.

More seriously:

• Starkiller can stomp Vader based on multiple indicators in TFU II, and Vader's equality with him is explicitly circumstantial - he was exhausted when they fought.
  
• The Vader in Resurrection is demonstrably ANH Vader, and he performs far better against Maul than he would against Starkiller.
  
• As you've conceded to, there's a sizeable gap between Jinn and Maul, and thus an even bigger one between Jinn and Starkiller.

One quote renders all of this moot, one fucking quote.

Good debate.

Vader's Legacy wrote:One quote renders all of this moot, one fucking quote.

The debate is between MP and I; please, don't interfere.

NotAA3 wrote:

Vader's Legacy wrote:One quote renders all of this moot, one fucking quote.

The debate is between MP and I; please, don't interfere.

I'll do what I want, maybe it will just be a conveniently timed blog

People are still arguing it's ROTJ Vader vs Maul? Good grief...

Good post, anyway.

Vader's Legacy wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:

Vader's Legacy wrote:One quote renders all of this moot, one fucking quote.

The debate is between MP and I; please, don't interfere.

I'll do what I want, maybe it will just be a conveniently timed blog

I take no issue with you making a blog outside of the thread, but I'm asking you not to comment your disagreements in here.