SS - ANH Darth Vader (Greysentinel365) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (Meatpants)

This is a continuation from this thread:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-lord-in-sidiousvader-vs-master-meatpants-2013646/

It was originally me against ISV, but ISV transferred the reins to Greysentinel, who made a response in place of ISV's second post. Included in this post is my own second post. It's been a long time coming in responding to this, about three months. The rules were as follows:

ISV wrote:policy follows the rules set here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing.
Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. For example, a feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.
All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
In character
High quality memes are welcome and expected
memes of insufficient quality will result in the user who posts them being shunned from society
No interrupting the debaters
no aiding the debaters with evidence

In continuing this debate, I should let it be noted that my opinions have changed quite drastically in some points in the last three months, as has my skill in debating (in my opinion). As such, I will be arguing a bit differently than I was back then, but I still believe this matchup is entirely viable for Qui-Gon Jinn, and I intend to prove that here.

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To stem my establishment of Ben and Vader’s combative power levels via Insider, you’ve incurred George Lucas, who via the debate rules is the “be-all end-all” for all disputes in the continuity. However, as you will soon discover that this can be turned against you rather heavily. I will begin with Lucas’ standpoint on the power of Vader first, and then move onto Nick Gillard’s authority. The claim here is that this statement places Vader, Dooku and Maul as rough equals in power:

George Lucas in Rolling Stone wrote:From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

((Note that the underline is from my opponent))

It’s indisputable that this quote can be read/interpreted in several different ways. The logical interpretation, in my view, is that Lucas is referring to status vis-à-vis being subsidiary to the emperor. Moreover, there’s no definitive way of proving that Lucas was referring specifically to power in the Force – and that’s not the logical take. It’s a reach to presume Lucas is referring specifically to power in the Force, or that he viewed the three Sith apprentices as all equal or relatively equal in power. This is further supported by Lucas’ well-established opinion on Vader’s power in the Force, along with other pieces of supporting evidence that set the nail in the coffin for Vader being anywhere near as powerful as he was during the events of RotS. Remember, George Lucas is the alpha and omega authority per the rules of the debate.



-Star Wars: Insider #72

This quote is from Pablo Hidalgo, and he spoke on behalf of George Lucas in a section where Hidalgo and Chee “provide actual answers to your Star Wars questions.” I think we can both agree that the source material is very clear and plain on RotJ Vader and Luke Skywalker being equals in lightsaber combat and prowess in the Force, so I will omit wasting time spamming quotes unnecessarily. The above Insider quote notes that Luke as of RotJ – and therefore by extent Vader – is “not as skillful” as Anakin as of the prequels, which is at least by RotS. Hidalgo also notes to the reader the Lucas viewed the PT era Jedi as “true Jedi”, and says specifically that the “skill and power” of Anakin is greater than what is seen in the OT apropos Luke and Vader. Remember too that we must scale this Vader back to ANH, which takes away significant power growth.

Star Wars: Insider #62 wrote:Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

By ESB (and thus RotJ), Vader has “advanced his lightsaber technique” and become “a far more formidable foe” than he was in ANH. This means Anakin’s “skill and power” per Hidalgo is greater than Luke’s in RotJ, which in turn is greater than Vader’s in ANH. Ergo Vader’s two gaps away from RotS Anakin.

Star Wars: Insider #86 wrote:Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

The obvious implication behind the above quote is to explain that “Luke is not that powerful of a Jedi” relative to someone like Yoda, suggesting a massive gap between the two. This extends to Vader – being an equal of RotJ Luke in skill and power – and ANH Vader is far less formidable compared to his RotJ self, widening the gap.

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Vader’s injuries “greatly diminished his ability to use the Force” and is not time specific. Thus, we get another emphasis on the gap between himself and his younger self.

Star Wars Head-To-Head wrote:An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

Here, Anakin “before his brutal defeat on Mustafar” is at the peak of his powers.



-Star Wars Blueprints - The Ultimate Collection

Vader’s powers were “drastically reduced… for the rest of his life.”

George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

But this is the real clincher. Here, Lucas states specifically that he’s “lost a lot of the power of the Force” due to his injuries. This is a G-canon statement that, supported by the above corroborating evidence makes the general conclusion that Vader is weaker in the Force than his pre-suit incarnation by a significant margin. Thus, when we look at the Rolling Stone quote you provided as the primary premise for your argument, it becomes increasingly unlikely that Lucas is referring to power in the Force. Not to mention that Lucas has made at least a few comments on the prequel trilogy displaying how “real Jedi” fight, as Hidalgo points to in the Insider quote. So, then my interpretation of the quote meaning Vader’s status as an apprentice/tool of the emperor just like Maul and Dooku were becomes a lot more valid as opposed to yours by virtue of Lucas’ various statements elsewhere (plus corroborating evidence) on Vader’s loss of power after his injuries on Mustafar.

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The next piece of evidence you offer is an email from Nick Gillard. As I’ve said, I’ve changed my opinions quite a lot in the past three months, and I don’t take Gillard as much of an authority post-production of the movies anymore. Especially since stuff that he says/has said makes no sense at all or contradict earlier statements in bizarre ways. Regardless, Gillard has never placed Vader on his/Lucas’ tier system, and as shown above Lucas never did either. So even if Lucas viewed Qui-Gon as a 7, Vader’s own whereabouts is still up for contention. It doesn’t look good for Vader, considering he’s stated to be drastically weaker in the Force than he was in RotS. We come then full circle to my original opening: the Vader vs Ben fight in ANH.


As explained in my first post, Ben and Vader were fighting equally, and fought as “shadows of their former selves.” It’s time I expanded on my previous points to demonstrate that Ben Kenobi was weaker than his base RotS self from an overall combative stance, as well as prove why Qui-Gon is his combative superior as of ANH. The general conclusion that the sources point toward is that both Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader are weaker than their prequel incarnations. As shown above, Vader as of ANH is two magnitudes inferior in skill and power to his RotS Jedi self. The case for Ben Kenobi is a bit harder to ascertain, but not impossible. His skill with the lightsaber and his overall combative viability by ANH had deteriorated:

Star Wars Lightsabers - A Guide to Weapons of the Force wrote:Obi-Wan’s movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader -- recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter -- fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions.

Darth Vader, Star Wars Death Star wrote:He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.

Star Wars Epic Battles wrote:This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

Star Wars Ultimate Duels wrote:They fight with lightsabers as before, but the duel is very different from their last encounter. Obi-Wan is older and weaker, and sees that Vader is too strong for him.

From these sources we glean that Kenobi was out of practice and was overall inferior to his RotS incarnation to the extent that he “knew he was a shadow of his former self.” (Insider #62) I also established in my first post that both combatants were fighting relatively evenly with each other “Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.” (Star Wars The Essential Guide to Characters).

All this serves to indicate how markedly inferior Vader’s combative viability is compared to his RotS self, to the point where he’s fighting evenly with Ben Kenobi, who was out of practice and “slowed by age”. There’s no indication that Kenobi kept himself physically fit or even upheld his lightsaber skills, as evidenced by the above quotes. Compare this to Vader, who in the interim had been hunting down Jedi and upkeeping his physical and lightsaber skills. To me, this is clear evidence of just how much power Vader lost due to his injuries. He was stronger than Obi-Wan in the Force in RotS, and a better duelist; his powers were “drastically” reduced, but he had 18 years during the interim to actualise the power he had left; whereas Kenobi had been virtually wasting away for most of that time. This suggests an extremely vast power loss, and we can’t imagine Vader’s powers as being approximate to the likes of Dooku (who can contend with Yoda in lightsabers) or Darth Maul.

Despite only being 57, Kenobi’s physicals were in obvious decline. Compare this to Qui-Gon Jinn, who was 60 years old by the time of TPM:

Star Wars Episode I Qui-Gon Jinn Mega-Collectible wrote: Though he is in his sixties, with his long hair turning gray, he is still an active and powerful warrior.

He wears his long hair tied back so as not to obstruct his peripheral vision. Although a little past his prime, he remains a powerful warrior and a very active Jedi Knight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000815063241/http://www.starwars.com/characters/qui_gon/

Even if you were to argue that Kenobi’s power in the Force didn’t decline, his overall combative ability is still dragged down by his lagging physicals, an area that Qui-Gon is not nearly struggling in. Qui-Gon can match TPM Darth Maul in lightsaber combat for 40 seconds before the fight tips in Maul’s favor, despite being “utterly surprised and unprepared for such an attack.” As per the old Databank. Knowing that Maul focused specifically on physical combat and being one of the most highly trained Sith in galactic history, his augmentation would be a good measure of his actualised power. Ergo Qui-Gon was contending with an opponent above the likes of ANH Vader by a mile for 40 seconds equally, before starting to tire. Essentially, ANH Vader has yet to be proven as superior to TPM Maul; where Qui-Gon does a lot better against the latter than Kenobi does against the former, considering the considerable gap between the two Sith.

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On the School of Fear quote, it doesn’t matter if Kenobi was only there for half of the feat. His words are quite clear, “it staggered him… He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He seemed to be everywhere at once.” I think the clear intention of the quote is that this display of power was something he’d only seen from the “great Jedi Masters”- and Qui-Gon. The overall point of the quote is to show that Jinn was capable of such displays himself, and that he’s comparable to the “great Jedi Masters”.

Apropos the Jedi Apprentice material, I don’t care much for cherry-picked quotes that wank Kenobi. The novels never indicate that Kenobi was superior to his master, and the case can easily be made that Qui-Gon was by far the superior of the two by TPM, which is what matters. Qui-Gon contended against Maul on Tatooine evenly whilst at a stated disadvantage per the old databank for 40 seconds before the fight tipped in Maul’s favor; the only time Kenobi faced Maul alone was when he was rage amped, and that in of itself is hard to gauge what it did to Kenobi’s combative state.

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This isn't even touching Vader's own actual force feats. Throwing shuttles aside like playthings

Not relevant considering I’ve established Vader’s power level as drastically reduced from his RotS self. TPM Maul is a much tougher opponent, and Jinn was capable giving him a considerable challenge.

Or TK'ing 3 Jedi simultaneously

And that proves what? I’m not interested in Vader TK’ing some random no-name Jedi. Qui-Gon is one of the most powerful Jedi in history. The council, and people who are powerful enough to sit on the council probably made up about 24/1000, or 2.4% of the total Jedi population approximately, and this is during the prime of the Jedi.

Doubtful. By ANH Vader had wracked up experience against many opponents within and beyond Qui-Gon's league. Such as the Dark Woman, Someone who Palpatine deemed too dangerous for someone like Mara, who is comparable to Ventress.

Skill is almost a non-factor in this matchup, as I’ve come to realise. But for the record, I find Qui-Gon predicting Maul’s Juyo sequences via experience (arguably) as being above anything ANH Vader has under his belt skill-wise.

Jax Pavan. A master of all 7 forms who had sampled from Ramages holocron

Mastering all seven forms means nothing.

Roan Shyrne someone with 30 + years of experience

Yes, and Qui-Gon has 50+ years of experience. Your point is?

Training Galen Marek to be nearly perfect in lightsaber combat

Meaning Vader is perfect in lightsaber combat? Give me a break, this sort of quote can't be taken as literal.

Most tellingly as mentioned above, Vader was able to recreate a Qui-Gon module for Proxy, meaning Vader clearly has knowledge of Jinn's form. Giving Vader the advantage.

Yeah, I’m going to need evidence that the Qui-Gon module accurately mimicked his style, then we can talk.

As for Vader's style itself, well even by 19 BBY

I don’t see this as being nearly as impressive as Qui-Gon having an experience edge over Maul, Maul commenting that Qui-Gon was “too good” and throwing away his usual combinations and strategies within seconds etc. Maul is a much more formidable opponent than ANH Vader.

But the fact remains, that as far as experience goes, the force is better. Despite this experience, Jinn's power could not hold up to Maul's and in trying to match it he burnt himself out. And against Vader, Qui-Gon would burn out quick.

As addressed above, Vader’s power level is below Maul’s by a significant margin, thus allowing Qui-Gon to contend with Vader without tiring out as he did against Maul.

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To summarise, Sing nearly killed them

Sure, yet we also have Aurra Sing specifically noting that they were more than she bargained for. AKA, she left the fight because she was going to lose. The fight doesn’t go for long either.

Then let's factor in that Sing has likely increased in ability in the 20 years between her encounters with Jinn and Vader and the picture becomes damn clear.

We have a clear cut example of Vader, easily stomping an opponent who had shown she could get around Jinn's experience, in a weaker iteration.

Now this is where you’re completely wrong. The Aurra Sing Vader faced was considerably weaker than the one who lured Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan into a trap. The Sing Vader fights had been laboring in a mine for months, breathing in a chemical that slowly burns your insides. Perhaps more importantly is that her antenna was cut before being sent to said prison. This antenna gave her improved speed and reaction times:



Star Wars: The Clone Wars US Magazine #1



Star Wars: The Clone Wars UK Magazine v6.38

So, she’s in a pretty bad condition physically, and she her speed/reaction times were inhibited by the loss of her antenna. There’s more though. Aurra Sing has a knack for losing her “edge” when she becomes unfocused, and lets her temper drive her. What’s more, it’s not hard to set her off. Take for example her fight with Aayla Secura. From the old databank:

Aurra Sing Databank wrote:The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

It confirms that the two were fighting to a draw before Aayla “goaded” Sing emotionally, causing Sing to go off-balance and lose the duel. The Aayla Secura databank corroborates this stance:

Aayla Secura Databank wrote:She egged on Aurra, unsettling her by identifying her deep-rooted isolation and abandonment issues. Enraged, Aurra lost her edge in combat, and Aayla scarred her on the cheek with her lightsaber…

Her rage causes her to “lose her edge in combat”. Furthermore, Sing has a specific weakness against disciplined opponents, a nod to her inability to keep her emotions in check during prolonged engagements:



CW Mag 6.38

Vader certainly does take advantage of this. As you left out conveniently, Vader had been goading Aurra before the fight. Here are the passages demonstrating her mounting anger during the conversation between the two just prior to the duel:

Coruscant Nights II: Streets Of Shadows wrote:Sing tensed. She had no weapons, but that did not mean she was unarmed. "Are you calling me a fool-Lord Vader?"

[…]

Letting her left foot drift slightly backward and lowering her upper body, she glared at him. This monstrosity in black fabric and metal was causing her to lose her temper. On the rare occasions when that happened, it usually resulted in someone dying.

[…]

Turning her head to one side, she spat deliberately onto the polished floor. "I've already filled out the necessary forms."

[…]

He took a step forward and she tensed, both hands clenching slowly.

Vader’s goading causes Sing to lash out, and Vader can take advantage of her weakened state, slower speed and unbalanced rage to ragdoll her. This is an unfair comparison to the Qui-Gon fight, as in this fight, Sing was calculating and focused. She kills a Jedi right in front of Qui-Gon’s eyes, then engages him and Obi-Wan for a brief period before admitting she’s outmatched. Two very different Sing’s, two very different scenarios, and not at all equal comparisons. Vader ragdolling a Sing combatively and physically weaker than the one Qui-Gon engaged for ten seconds means absolutely nothing. It’s a terrible comparison, and you’ve failed to make any link between Vader and Qui-Gon.

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The conclusion here is simple. Lucas, who’s authority is unquestioned, along with several other corroborating sources note that Vader lost a huge portion of his power, and his suit incarnation remained as a shadow of what he used to be; factually inferior to RotS Anakin. His subsequent honing and mastery can only take him so far, as evidenced by him being matched by Ben Kenobi, who was a lot weaker than his RotS self and who’s combative viability had deteriorated significantly after almost two decades of relative inactivity.

Qui-Gon could contend with TPM Darth Maul for a significant period of time as an equal, which is a feat that not only surpasses any of Vader’s lightsaber feats, but also places Qui-Gon as at least on Vader’s power level, since TPM Maul is considerably more powerful than Ben Kenobi or Vader. In short, Qui-Gon’s showing is more impressive than anything ANH has ever shown, since Jinn scales off his performance with Maul.

Solid post.

While there are bad elements in this post it's solid on the whole.

Yeh cant say I agree with MP at all on this.