Kyle Katarn (Chris Cortosis) vs Mace Windu (HelloThere)

-Kyle Katarn as of Fate of the Jedi
-Mace Windu as of the beginning of Revenge of the Sith (Not Office Mace)

Rules:

-This debate concerns the Lucasfilm Licensing universe and adheres to its public and internal policies and directives.
-Quotes and stats are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
-Feats take precedence over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
-There will be 3 posts per each side and a time limit of 2 weeks per post. Extensions can be granted at the discretion of the two debaters.
-There will be no character limit.

Post is nearly finished

Mace Windu:

Said Dreadnought was absolutely gargantuan. Kenobi's starship for one is an ant compared to it.

Lightsaber Combat:

His prowess was both exceptional and deadly, and many regarded him as one of the greatest warriors in the history of the Order. He was fully aware that his apprentice would eventually engage in duels against other Jedi, and believed Dooku's emphasis on pure lightsabre combat to be a tremendous advantage. wrote:Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 68

His mastery of the Makashi Lightsaber form is unmatched, and all but the most skilled Jedi would fall against him in combat. wrote:

Source: The Clone Wars: Lightsaber duels

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I'll start off with responding to some of your points and then I'll move on to my opener.

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Right off the bat, I'll just say, as you haven't factored Kyle into any of your arguments, I can safely ignore them and move onto my own chains but I believe there's some things here I need to address before going forward.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Let's start with Anakin just post AOTC. Where he was able to manipulate a Separatist Dreadnought into the path of speeding missiles:
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Said Dreadnought was absolutely gargantuan. Kenobi's starship for one is an ant compared to it.
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On it's own, this feat rivals anything you can dish out for Kyle. But we're just getting started.

Not quite. Remember Kyle was able to beat Desann, who in a less powerful state was able to briefly break through Luke's passive force barrier and push him back.



Now I won't say Desann has any measure of parity with NR Luke. But to be able to push him back and/or break through his robust force barrier with TK is no mean feat.

Certainly scaling above Anakin's feat is decent hype for Mace but to paraphrase Dooku: It's obvious this debate cannot be decided by out TK feats. But by our scaling chains.

There's more I can mention regarding this feat and mediums and such but that's all for now.

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hellothere5432 wrote:4 months later however, despite Anakin being pushed into the same rage induced frenzy over the same subject matter, he is completely dominated by Obi Wan. Hitting Anakin  with what felt like starships to subdue him:

Kenobi is just breaking up the fight here. Anakin's rage at this moment was focused of Ventor. All intents and purposes, it was a sucker punch. There's no real telling what would happen if Anakin and Kenobi faced off.

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hellothere5432 wrote:After this point Dooku continued to grow up to Dark Rendezvous, where he was a stated equal of Windu:

I question this. There are far more sources with higher authority and more recency that would realistically place WIndu well below Dooku.

Mace was below Dooku when he was still a Jedi.

Jedi Dooku:

And you've already provided a couple quotes that support Dooku's immense growth upon falling to the dark side. And we know that the dark side offers power faster. So the existing gap between Mace and Jedi Dooku grows rather substantially.

Furthermore, Dooku as of AOTC is about on par with AOTC Yoda as per multiple sources:

AOTC Yoda~AOTC Dooku:

And of course, Windu is Yoda's inferior as shown in the Power of the Jedi quote above and YDR.

"Duty calls," Palpatine said, moving to cut the comm channel. Then he paused. "Master Windu, since we are being frank with one another today, let me add that in these briefings I wish to hear your own unvarnished opinions-not what you think Master Yoda would have said. He is a great being-perhaps the greatest in the Republic. But Master Yoda is a teacher at heart. You are a warrior. Regrettably, this sad age of the world may be your time more than his."

"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said.

-Yoda, Dark Rendezvous

Mace's inferiority to Dooku doesn't stop there however. In The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes, which takes place not too long after AOTC, Kenobi and Windu fight Dooku.

Republic Heroes:

Interestingly enough, this fight ends in somewhat of a stalemate. With the platform they're all on crumbling and neither side appearing to be tired or defeated.

Fight end:

So at best, with the help of Post S1 Obi Wan, Windu can potentially stalemate post AOTC Dooku.

Now of course, both Dooku and Windu grow throughout the course of the war but there's no indication that Windu's growth was big enough to overtake Dooku, who had clear supremacy for quite some time. On the contrary, WOTC implies Mace didn't really grow:

In this case, the two versions of Mace Windu aren't necessarily supposed to be "Mace Windu, pre-Clone Wars" and "Mace Windu, post-Clone Wars." In fact, their identical Hit Points, Defense, Attack, and Damage scores strongly imply that there isn't much experience and growth between them. Instead, the primary differences between these two figures involve which special abilities and Force powers are emphasized for the sake of flavor and playability.

-Jedi Counseling 80 https://web.archive.org/web/20080503150127/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20051215jc80

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hellothere5432 wrote:I also wish to highlight, this one particular accolade from Jedi Dooku - him being a better duelist than any Jedi ever as of TPM save Yoda and Mace. This would include the likes of Novel Revan for one, who speaks for himself really, as well as countless other's. It is truly an incredible accolade, and for DR Mace to scale so far over this feat is incredibly impressive.

The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48 was released in 2010. The Revan Novel was released in 2011.

Also it's important to note that this quote says "one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced" meaning even if it did have the Revan novel in mind, it wouldn't necessarily bind novel Revan below Dooku. The gap between them could be massive for all we know. Though I doubt it even had him in mind to begin with.

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Now that I'm done with my responses, I'll move on to my own opener.

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Hype:

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Kyle Katarn was a top tier Jedi in his era. A combat veteran before he even became a Jedi. I mean, hell, he was soloing installations full of Stormtroopers even without the force.

NRI Report:

He becomes a combat instructor and the Order's second Battlemaster, succeeding Kam Solusar (which implies supremacy in skill over Solusar) only a couple years (12-19 ABY) after he rejoins Luke's order after an extended period of leaving the Force behind. No mean feat. As we'll see, Katarn has amazing growth.

JATM:

As a Battlemaster, Katarn is top of the order in dueling skill. (With obvious exceptions like Luke or Caedus ofc)

Battlemaster:

More hype

Chuck Norris:

You get the picture. Katarn ain't no pushover. He's had training from the best of both worlds. Both as a normal soldier/commando and as a Jedi.

Now lets move on to the good stuff.

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Scaling:

As I've pointed out earlier, Mace isn't really close to Dooku. He was sub Jedi Dooku and he has nothing that indicates his own growth was enough to overtake Dooku. Especially given the Count's dark side immersion. Far more recent sources also place him a good distance below Dooku.

On 22 BBY, during the Mission to Ruul, Mace fought Ventress. While he was solidly above her, it is noted it took "all his skills" to defeat her.

Ruul Fight:

In Cestus Deceptiton, Ventress muses that she had "come within a hairbreadth of defeating him.":

Cestus Deception:

Now while this could partially be attributed to Ventress' arrogance, she wouldn't exactly be saying this if she was a stomp gap below Windu, would she?

Flash forward a year, on 21 BBY, Windu fights Ventress again in a TCW comic. This time on Coruscant. They duel relatively evenly despite her only using one blade. (Which puts her at a bit of a disadvantage as a Jar'kai specialist.)

God, this art is fucking trash:

While Windu is above Ventress, unfortunately for him, it's not by a large margin.

How does Katarn factor into this? Lets start at the beginning. Jerec was stated to be about Vader tier.

Vader tier:

Once he tapped in to the Valley's power, Jerec became far, far, far, far more powerful,

Valley Jerec:

But how does Mace factor into this? As of 2005, In a miniatures scenario, Trainee Kyle is held at around Ventress tier. And Jerec at Dooku tier. We can safely assume it's the Ventress we see in either of the above encounters. (Early war Ventress.)

Kyle~Ventress:

Despite the gap in power, Kyle still defeats Jerec. Due to destiny/prophecy and certain unique techniques like the force cocoon.

Conditions:

Bear in mind. This is DF 2 Kyle. Mere days/weeks after he picked up a lightsaber. And he's being held at Ventress tier. He would go on to grow immensely over the next ~30 years.

Growth:

There's far more. But you get the idea. FOTJ Kyle would be massively above DF2 Kyle.

So we're left with the below chain:

FOTJ Kyle > > > > > DF2 Kyle ~ Early War Ventress < < Early War Mace < ~ BoROTS Mace

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SAGA and D20

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Now lets compare Mace and Kyle's SAGA and D20 stat blocks.

Windu's D20 stats hold him at level 18. End of NJO Kyle is also held at level 18. Bear in mind, this is ~15 years before FOTJ. Whereas Mace's stats portray him as of around Attack of the Clones. Windu has a much smaller ceiling for growth.

D20:

Now lets look at SAGA:

Windu is held at a whopping CL 19. Very impressive. However, so is Katarn.

SAGA:

And this is a pre prime Kyle as well. Before he became a member of the New Jedi Order High Council. Note that the NJO High Council was founded in 35 ABY during the Dark Nest Crisis. So this stat block portrays pre 35 ABY Kyle. And it outright says the best to come for him.

Pre Prime:

So the scaling chains would look something like:

-FOTJ Kyle > > > End of NJO Kyle ~ AOTC Mace < < BoROTS Mace
-FOTJ Kyle > > > Pre 35 ABY Kyle ~ CW Mace < ~ BoROTS Mace

One thing to note, the above chains are the best case scenario for Windu. As the Clone Wars era campaign guide puts him above Dooku, which goes against later and higher level sources. So we could safely write off Windu's block.

Dookster:

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-Windu is below Dooku by a decent amount.
-Katarn has impressive hype as a duelist and overall combatant.
-Katarn has scaling that has him punching up to Windu tier very early on in his career. With growth, he should be above Windu.
-Stats support the idea of Katarn being above Windu and gives him a higher ceiling to grow.

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That concludes my first post. I will be exploring more accolades, scaling, and evidence in the posts to come.  Look forward to seeing where this goes.

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Nice work. Response will be out in a week or so.

Counters:

As you noted, this was merely a breakthrough of his passive barrier. It's not any way to scale Desann and by extension Kyle, over Luke's feats.



Obi-Wan being able to not only punch through Anakin’s barriers in his berserker state, but break his focus and snap him out is certainly a showing of superiority and considerable superiority at that.


Said sparring sessions all occurred before TPM, rendering them void. Mace was noted to have surpassed Dooku before the latter left the Order, signifying significant growth:

Source: Star Wars: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

As well as another quote saying all three were peers:

Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him[Dooku].   Source: Insider 109: wrote:

*TPM Mace. Even if we were to accept TPM Dooku > TPM Mace (which isn't the case), it would still be irrelevant given the growth Mace underwent later on.



Hardly. All it would mean is that Mace grew at a similar rate.



DR Yoda and AOTC Yoda are very different power wise. DR Dooku himself lost his fight with Yoda, with the latter even being able to "annihilate" him once he tapped into the nexus on Vjun:

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.  "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"  "That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."  As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.  "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.  "Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."  "I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.  Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.  "Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"  Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.  "Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "  Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.  "Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.  "I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.  Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.  "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."  Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.  "A choice made, have you, Count?"  "I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."  Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.  "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."  Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.  "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"  And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. —Yoda:

So no, Mace being Yoda's inferior in no way equates to him being Dooku's inferior seeing as how the Count lost to DR Yoda.


Dooku fending off both for a long period doesn't equate to any form of vast superiority over Mace. It's been consistently shown throughout SW that one fighter on the same level as two other fighter's can fend off/match the duo for long periods.  TCW Ventress vs Anakin and Obi Wan is a prime example:


Here Ventress proves able to fend off both Jedi at once. Despite being consistently placed as peers of them individually throughout TCW. A notion corroborated by Ventress and Anakin's duel earlier that season:


Furthemore Mace and Dooku fought later on in the war, at the Battle of Boz Pity:


Now you could argue that said encounter was brief, therefore unusable however this is easily remedied by Dooku earlier telling his magna guards not to intervene against the Jedi, yet they did so against Mace. Insinuating Mace to have been winning:


Said quote can be countered by Ventress scaling and Mace's parity with Dooku throughout the war which will be addressed later on.



I concede this point. Still it matter's little, given Mace's scaling over Dooku's feats.

Kyle Katarn

These are nice and all however you have presented nothing insinuating Mace isn't capable of replicating any of these feats or enjoying similar accolades.






While I won't deny Mace being peers of Ventress during these points in time, it's irrelevant given the later scaling Mace get's from enjoying parity with Dooku per both DR and their fight in Boca Pity.
The same Dooku who dominated Ventress in DR:





A notion reinforced by their fight in S3. In which Dooku is stated to be far more powerful than Ventress and Savage Oppress, an insanely powerful being in his own right:



So essentially:
Late War Mace ~ Dooku > > > > >  Ventress. Rendering your scaling chain void.

Addressed Windu's growth above. Really this point doesn't lead anywhere as there is no way to determine exactly which out of the two grew more.

Quote is citing CW Mace, as the description is purely about CW Mace. Rendering it void.

We can also compare other stats placing Mace over Katarn:

Lightsaber combat

I've already addressed Mace's superiority to Katarn in the force. However now I feel as though his lightsaber abilities now need some light shed on them, to truly emphasise how outclassed Katarn is here.

Firstly let's look at Mace's own accolades:
Mace is considered unmatched skill wise as a duelist as of ROTS:

Source: Order of the Jedi: Mace Windu


Placing him above the likes of ROTS Sidious, Dooku and Yoda in terms of skill. Who's skill as fighters honestly  speak for themselves. Kyle is well and truly outclassed here.
And given the aforementioned detailing of Mace's parity with Dooku, we can scale Mace to all of Dooku's feats. Including but not limited to:

Stomping AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan:







Matching AOTC Yoda:







There are many more showings from the Count to dish out but I think the point stands. Katarn is simply outclassed here. Note, Dooku's showings in AOTC occurred when he was significantly pre-prime, as he increased significantly during the war. Making Mace's parity with Dooku all the more impressive.

- Refuted my opponents arguments against my original scaling chain.
- Mace is a peer of Dooku.
- Mace in no way scales to Ventress.
- Mace has stats placing him over Katarn.
- Mace's overall lightsaber prowess surpasses Katarn.
- Mace takes this more often than not

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hellothere5432 wrote:As you noted, this was merely a breakthrough of his passive barrier. It's not any way to scale Desann and by extension Kyle, over Luke's feats.

Of course. It was never my argument that Desann scales near Luke. Just that him breaking the potent passive barrier of Luke is impressive. As is him not getting immediately curbstomped. However, this isn't really important to my overall argument.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Obi-Wan being able to not only punch through Anakin’s barriers in his berserker state, but break his focus and snap him out is certainly a showing of superiority and considerable superiority at that.

Sucker-punching someone isn't that impressive. In fact, that's what Desann did to Luke. Whatever the case, as with the above, this isn't really important to either of our arguments.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Said sparring sessions all occurred before TPM, rendering them void. Mace was noted to have surpassed Dooku before the latter left the Order, signifying significant growth:

For one, the quotes I've sent outright says Mace was bested in combat. Those are the results of spars. The Starships and Vehicles quote doesn't necessitate that Dooku lost to Windu. Only that Windu was a greater swordsman. What exactly does this mean? Windu, though potentially better in martial arts ability can still be sub Dooku overall.

However, lets assume TPM Mace>TPM Dooku for a second, Dooku had massive dark side growth. Which offers power faster. I see no reason to believe that Mace's growth can outstrip Dooku's.

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hellothere5432 wrote:As well as another quote saying all three were peers:

It says "were considered to be on equal terms" which just means that the order saw them at around the same level. You tell me what's more reliable. Fights in which Mace lost to Dooku and Yoda? Or the perception of the order?

You can argue that Mace had some degree of parity with Jedi Dooku despite being sub. However it won't exactly amount to much given Dooku's massive growth as mentioned earlier.

-Insider 109

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hellothere5432 wrote:Hardly. All it would mean is that Mace grew at a similar rate.

That's the kicker here. Dooku grows massively due to the dark side. What exactly does Mace have that would skyrocket him to the same degree? I'm willing to buy that he grows. Hell I'm willing to buy that he substantially grows. But at the same rate and to the same degree? There really isn't any evidence for that.

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hellothere5432 wrote:DR Yoda and AOTC Yoda are very different power wise. DR Dooku himself lost his fight with Yoda, with the latter even being able to "annihilate" him once he tapped into the nexus on Vjun:
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So no, Mace being Yoda's inferior in no way equates to him being Dooku's inferior seeing as how the Count lost to DR Yoda.

Well, dark side Yoda would definitely be a beast. No denying that. But that doesn't exactly save Windu in any way. There's no evidence DR or ROTS Windu is above the AOTC Yoda class.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Dooku fending off both for a long period doesn't equate to any form of vast superiority over Mace. It's been consistently shown throughout SW that one fighter on the same level as two other fighter's can fend off/match the duo for long periods.  TCW Ventress vs Anakin and Obi Wan is a prime example:
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Here Ventress proves able to fend off both Jedi at once. Despite being consistently placed as peers of them individually throughout TCW. A notion corroborated by Ventress and Anakin's duel earlier that season:

A couple things:

1: The fight wasn't all that protracted. In fact, here's a play by play based on the clip you sent.

Play By Play:

Point is it's not that long and she gets tagged multiple times. And she clearly doesn't do too well when they work in concert. Furthermore, it's clear that she had a rage amp in the fight. Not the best evidence to point to.

2: Now even if I'm completely off in the above point, it's explicitly the game's intent that Dooku is beyond Mace and Kenobi. Only through environmental factors can Dooku be beaten:

Spoiler:

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hellothere5432 wrote:Furthemore Mace and Dooku fought later on in the war, at the Battle of Boz Pity:

Interesting you should choose to bring up this fight as it's actually far more favorable for Dooku. Lets break it down play by play:

Play By Play:

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hellothere5432 wrote:Now you could argue that said encounter was brief, therefore unusable however this is easily remedied by Dooku earlier telling his magna guards not to intervene against the Jedi, yet they did so against Mace. Insinuating Mace to have been winning:

Most droids don't really act on their own volition to this degree. The droids pulled Mace down on Dooku's orders. Mace and Dooku's dialogue here supports that.

Dialogue:

You could argue that it would have been a protracted duel had the guards not shown up and that that would give Mace parity with Dooku. However, that's doubtful given Mace's other lower performances that we've looked into + Dooku's performance here was very favorable towards him anyway.

However, to further hammer this point home, lets look at how both Dooku and Windu fared against a common opponent, Grievous:

When they fought in Labyrinth of Evil, it was atop a train. Grievous' movements were restricted because he had to cling onto the train with his feet. Putting him at a disadvantage. Despite this, he performed rather well against Windu.

Disadvantage:

Windu was unable to beat Grievous in sabers. He had to resort to using a force push.

Push:

To further support this, Mace believed himself unable to take on Grievous alone in Battlefront: Elite Squadron. Needing the help of X2.

Elite Squadron:

And unlike Windu, Dooku is unquestionably superior to Grievous

Dooku>Grievous:

And Dooku believes he can demonstrate the dueling skill of a bunch of notable Jedi including Mace. Note also that this includes Yoda. Whom is superior to Mace. Dooku believes he can fight on Yoda's level and style. Which further supports his significant superiority to Windu.

Spoiler:

Now lets move onto your points regarding Katarn:

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hellothere5432 wrote:These are nice and all however you have presented nothing insinuating Mace isn't capable of replicating any of these feats or enjoying similar accolades.

I know. I just wanted to establish Katarn's hype. However...... now that you bring this up.....

Gank:

Lets contrast that with how the same source depicts Katarn (all before he even picked up a saber):

Hype:

This is unimportant to either of our main arguments, but.... just thought I oughta bring it up anyway.

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hellothere5432 wrote:While I won't deny Mace being peers of Ventress during these points in time, it's irrelevant given the later scaling Mace get's from enjoying parity with Dooku per both DR and their fight in Boca Pity.

If Windu as per your own words had parity with Ventress in the early war, why exactly would he skyrocket from that tier to being close to DR Dooku? We really don't really have any lore reason for such a thing. Sure he could grow in the war, but that drastically? I don't see any reason to believe that.

The problem with using Windu's accolade from DR and his fight in Boz Pity (even if we were to grant that it gives him parity with Dooku) is that far more recent sources support him being significantly below Dooku. One of which includes a straight up fight between the two. (Republic Heroes)

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hellothere5432 wrote:Addressed Windu's growth above. Really this point doesn't lead anywhere as there is no way to determine exactly which out of the two grew more.
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Late War Mace ~ Dooku > > > > >  Ventress. Rendering your scaling chain void.

I mean, going off of intuition, what's greater? Windu's ~3 years or Katarn's ~30 years?

Bear in mind, it's not just ~30 years of normal or linear growth. As per the quote from Troy Denning Builds a Dark Nest I've sent, the entire NJO has a massive jump after The Unifying Force. Which is ~15 years before Fate of the Jedi. And it's not like Katarn hasn't seen war or action in those ~30 years. Fighting is basically a constant for him.

Even if we're to be generous and go with your chain, Katarn's ceiling is still far higher.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Quote is citing CW Mace, as the description is purely about CW Mace. Rendering it void.

The intent is that he didn't really grow. I'm willing to grant that he did. However, there is really nothing to support that it's by a large margin. Nothing we've seen indicates that he's grown to be Dooku level.

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hellothere5432 wrote:We can also compare other stats placing Mace over Katarn:

For one, the ones I've cited are far more recent. The SAGA one is from 2008. Whereas the Windu and Katarn you've sent is from 2005. And the Kyle you've sent is massively pre prime.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Mace is considered unmatched skill wise as a duelist as of ROTS:

While impressive, "unmatched" is a rather generic accolade. Doesn't even extend to or factor in Kyle.

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hellothere5432 wrote:Placing him above the likes of ROTS Sidious, Dooku and Yoda in terms of skill. Who's skill as fighters honestly  speak for themselves. Kyle is well and truly outclassed here.

Mace is an inferior to Yoda. No real way around that. As per the sources I've provided (DR included). And given that you're repping Base Windu here and not Office Mace, you can't really use the duel against Palpatine as evidence.

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hellothere5432 wrote:- Mace in no way scales to Ventress.

My point never exactly was that Mace~Ventress. Merely that he's closer to her than Dooku. To an extent that I can use them for my scaling.

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Now that I've finished responding to your points, allow me to bring a couple other pieces of evidence to the table.

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Lets take a look at a common foe both Mace and Katarn had. The one, the only, the man of Cheth's fantasies: Notable Jedi Killer Boba Fett.

In 19 BBY, at a very young age, Fett and Windu fought. Now Fett ultimately lost but not before putting up a rather good fight. Mace struggled with him. And Boba was able to tag him a couple times:

Boba vs Mace:

This isn't exactly an isolated notion. A Clone Wars Infinities story had much similar results. Now again, Boba would have lost ultimately, but it was still described as a "brutal fight"

Infinities:

Even at the highest level, G canon, the idea of Boba killing Mace was entertained (again it's a bit circumstantial in the artwork depicted here, however the point is the idea was still entertained):

Unused Concept:

How about Kyle? Well he fought a much better and older Fett to a standstill at one point. And this was before he became a Jedi.

New Essential Guide to Characters:

Kyle's own words regarding this encounter:

Jedi Academy:

Because of the encounter, Boba is more hesitant to cross paths with Kyle:

Rebel Agent:

Now you may be thinking: "Boba would obviously use different weapons and tactics against Jedi than he would conventional dudes so it's not really a comparable feat."

That is an understandable assessment, however:

1: No matter how you look at it, force users are far more dangerous opponents than non force users. So it's not like he was at some disproportionate advantage against Windu, nor does that mean he had an easier time against him than Kyle. Both Katarn and Windu really pressed Boba. Yet one grows far, far, far, far more after the encounter.
2: If we were to go with the above explanation, that makes Mace look bad. Shows he can't handle unconventional tactics. (Something which Katarn is more than capable of).
3: If we want a cleaner comparison, a young Jaden Korr defeats Boba on Ord Mantell. In an environment that's far more favorable to Fett due to its openness. And of course, Jaden as of this point is laughably below Kyle. Remember, it takes DS Jaden in the DS ending for Academy to match/beat Katarn.

To emphasize once again: I am not saying Mace is sub Boba as that is a gross misrepresentation of lore and wrong. However, I am saying that Boba can put up a good fight, even if he'd still definitely lose. And Katarn benefits from this due to his own + Jaden's performance. At the very least, this shows us Katarn's conventional combat skills are extremely impressive.

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-Defended my scaling. Brough forth additional evidence as well.
-There is far more to support Windu being an inferior to Dooku.
-While Windu definitely could have grown, it really can't be to a degree that he's Dooku tier. Every one of their engagements and comparisons generally tend to favor Dooku.
-Katarn shows a better combat record against similar opponents/opponent types.

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HelloThere concedes. Kyle Katarn wins.