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Chris Cortosis
Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
March 17th 2022, 9:38 pm
-Jaden Korr as of Fate of the Jedi (FatedXtasy)
-Kam Solusar as of Fate of the Jedi (Chris Cortosis/rng)
Rules:
-3 posts per side-No character limit
-1 month in between posts
Fated Xtasy
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
March 17th 2022, 10:38 pm
In the immortal words of Jaden Korr circa Jedi Academy.
"You cannot beat a Jedi!"
Expect my response within the week.
"You cannot beat a Jedi!"
Expect my response within the week.
- Fated Xtasy
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
March 27th 2022, 12:58 pm
There be dragons.
To start Korr is one of the leading Jedi in Luke's second generation of students. As a Jedi Jaden led the assault against the Disciples of Ragnos and the Imperial Remnant that bolstered their forces. Later, Korr was tested when he took on the Jedi-Sith Clone community, and he was tested even further when he came face to face with Ancient Rakatan Entity, Mother. Throughout his career, Jaden amassed a wealth of experience fighting against Dark Siders and Ancient Entities becoming one of the many decorated heroes among Luke's Jedi Order.Lightsaber Prowess: A Juggernaught's Bane VS The Swordmaster
At first glance, Jaden may be less knowledgable in lightsaber combat, to a degree, than Kam Solusar, however, to think must be noted before we continue.
- Jaden's master was Solusar's successor, Katarn, who had trained under Qu Rahn, the ghosts of Ruusan, defeated more classically trained foes like Sariss, then later re-trained rather quickly as a Jedi and bested Desann(who dueled Skywalker twice). It's not far-fetched to say that Katarn's knowledge and experience outweighed Solusar's own.
- Jaden's force abilities and lightsaber skills go hand in hand, he relies on the Force consistently in combat in the same vein as Revan, albeit to a lesser degree. Thus, going forward assume that Korr will be consistently utilizing the Force mid-combat.
While the merits of the Master don't benefit the Apprentice, the overall knowledge of the Master does. Meaning quotes like this:
Jedi Academy: Kyle Katarn wrote: “As you train you’ll learn additional fighting styles, changing styles during combat can surprise your opponent allowing you to get the upper hand.”
Lend credibility to the belief that Jaden was trained in multiple styles of combat by an objectively more knowledgable Battlemaster than Solusar. Moreover, this ties into Jaden's Revan-esque use of the Force during Combat as Katarn teaches his apprentice to improvise in the middle of combat, which Korr seems to do throughout Crosscurrent and Riptide. Which is doubtlessly carried over from Korr's experience during the Ragnos Crisis.
Korr confronted many members of the Imperial Remnant and Cultist, but his first test came in the form of Alora, who fought furiously on the planet of Hoth.
—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide. wrote:When you meet Alora, she’s Tavion’s most prized apprentice, though still rather inexperienced. She uses a single lightsaber and has basic acrobatic abilities and medium-level Force Powers…..”
—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:In a heated battle, Korr defeated Alora to in order escape Hoth and report on his mission.
His defeat of Alora garners him the praise of Skywalker.
Jedi Academy: Luke Skywalker wrote:"Kyle's right, there still missions for you to undertake, and we can't neglect the training of one of our most promising students."
Once again, Korr goes on a plethora of missions, on one occasion he earns high praise from veteran Wedge Antilles, who states that even in private Luke holds Jaden in high esteem.
―Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Wedge Antilles) wrote:"Thanks For the Assistance, Jaden. Luke tells me you're going to be a great Jedi."
―Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Wedge Antilles after their mission.) wrote:"Great work, Jaden. Luke was right about you!"
Once again, Korr encounters Imperials, Mercenaries, and Cultists before heading to his next test, Vjun.
Here Korr is challenged by a score of Imperial Forces and Cultist before he and Katarn are eventually separated, leaving Korr to take on the remaining Reborn+Cultist before eventually
Korr confronts Rosh Penin along with the Kothos Twins. Though we don't have a character limit, I dislike walls of text so please reference the following linkfor an overview of Kothos Twins)
In short, the Twins are stated to be faster than Korr, have a variety of abilities in their arsenal all while they continue to empower and heal Rosh. In essence, Korr is dealing with the immediate threat of Rosh in melee combat, while the twins pepper Korr with their many dark side abilities. Yet despite all this, Jaden is able to best the Twins(masters of evasion) and defeat, disarm and floor Rosh Penin.
- Jaden vs Three Dark Jedi:
The act of besting the three Dark Jedi earns Korr high praise and a new rank within the order.
Jedi Academy: Luke Skywalker wrote:"Jaden you handled yourself exceptionally well on Vjun. To confront three dark Jedi and defeat them took bravery and skill. for your efforts, I feel you are ready to join our ranks as a Jedi Knight."
as before, Korr takes on several missions wherein he encounters many more Reborn, Cultists, Mercenaries, and Imperial forces. In one instance, the Jedi Knight child takes on Boba Fett while attempting to destroy weapon caches on Ord Mantell. After an extensive battle, Korr manages to bring the bounty hunter to his knees...
- Jaden Vs Boba Fett:
After this, Korr goes on to Taspir III where he neutralizes the Imperial Forces and eventually duels Alora a second, and final time.
—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide. wrote:“When you again cross paths with Alora, she’s trained furiously to avenger her earlier defeat. She now uses two single lightsaber and is extremely deadly with them, having developed some unique combat moves that are exclusive to her. She also uses new Force Powers as well.”
Despite being afforded the advantage of having Korr fight against many Cultists and Reborn prior to engaging Alora, Jaden bests her and immediately leaves for Korriban wherein he spearheads the assault on Korriban and defeats both Axmis as well as Ragnos. In the interest of time please see the following link
As an apprentice, Axmis was already a threat to Katarn.
Years later, she's no doubt grown in power, given her capacity to incapacitate both Katarn and Korr, additionally, she sends her nemesis Katarn flying back with a blast.Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast: Perfect Guide wrote:“Tavion is no stranger to wielding a Lightsaber. Although her skills aren’t as finely polished as those of a Shadow Trooper or Reborn Boss(Master), she’s still a force to be reckoned with.”
- TK & Force Lightning :
Tavion can also move the ground itself
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide. wrote:"Or, her hand will glow purple, and she will create an earthquake move."
From this, we can infer that Tavion had grown substantially in power, with the scepter she becomes far more lethal.
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima's Official Strategy Guide. wrote:Tavion wields both a single lightsaber, and the Staff of Ragnos, making her a lethal threat
Korr was in a circumstance where Tavion should have easily bested him, but instead, the opposite occurred, tavion was disarmed, floored, and could barely stand after their battle.
Force Prowess: Telekinetic Fury VS Standard Applications
I don't mean to sound... dismissive of Solusar's Force abilities but all I know is he through a rock once on Yavin and that's all I remember. Please educate me!As mentioned before, Jaden's combative MO is to utilize the Force in tandem with his Lightsaber that said I want to highlight just how powerful his TK is.
From being able to bring down pillars and boulders at a young age.
- Pillars/Boulders:
To knocking down the more Telekinetic astute of the clones
Meeting his own clone(the prime of the Sith-Jedi Community) in a standstill―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"The clone’s wild, bloodshot eyes widened when he saw Jaden. Jaden took advantage of the clone’s surprise. He drew on the Force, extended a hand, and struck the clone with a blast of concussive energy so strong it blew the clone back down the stairs and drove him into the floor. The clone lay there, dazed."
Holding back the combined strength of his equal, and his lesser, only to bested when the Lumiya-clone interfered.―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden’s blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage."
- Jaden vs Soldier, Runner and Seer:
- Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"The female clone stared at him, a strange smile on her face. Her strong jaw and almond-shaped eyes clicked in Jaden’s memory and he recognized her as a clone of the Dark Jedi Lumiya. Her baldness had thrown him at first. The child, her face dirty, her long red hair matted, did not move at all.
“What do you want?” Jaden asked through gritted teeth.
“To go home,” the Lumiya-clone said.
“I can’t allow that,” Jaden said.
Her smile deepened. “You cannot stop us. No one can. Mother has called.”
As one, the two male clones took a step toward Jaden, their power pressing against him. He fell to one knee, grunting against their onslaught, barely holding on.
They took another step and he fell to both knees.
The larger of the two grinned. Jaden recognized him now, behind the beard and hair. He was a clone of Jaden’s Master, Kyle Katarn. Anger poured off both clones, anger born of years of frustration and mistreatment. It hit Jaden like a hailstorm. His elbows bent. He was failing, failing.
But he refused to give in.
He grunted, summoned a reserve of strength, extended his arms fully, pushed back against the clones, stood up, and held his ground.
“I won’t let you pass,” he grunted. “I can’t.”
His words erased the smile on the Lumiya-clone’s face. She shrieked, her calm façade shattering under the sudden expression of her rage. Power went forth from her, joined that of the other two clones, and slammed him against the wall."
To finally being able to knock an Ancient Entity back, as well as breaking her hold on him.
―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:Jaden fell fully into the Force, gestured with outstretched arms and two flattened palms at Mother, and unleashed a blast of power. The energy struck her full in the side, blowing her a meter sidewise and causing her to release Marr, who fell to the floor"
―Star Wars: Riptide wrote:"Despite his pain, he drew on the Force and let power explode outward from him. It freed him from her grasp and he flipped as he fell. He hit the floor on his feet, crouched, and exploded into a leap toward her, his lightsaber held high."
Jaden's telekinetic abilities are something Kam will have to find an answer to quickly, given that Jaden favors their uses in almost every scenario. To my knowledge, Solusar has no feats beyond the boulder throw? If not I look forward to being corrected.
To summarize, Jaden's lightsaber abilities are nothing to scoff at, and when combined with the Force, he is a lethal opponent. Kam's advantage with the lightsaber is minimal at best and negligible at worse. Kam's combative applications of the force seem rather abysmal in comparison to a Force titan of Jaden's level. Solusar will have his pick of whether he wants to get up close and risk being TK'ed or stay at a distance that favors Korr.
It's your move, rng.
- Chris Cortosis
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
April 3rd 2022, 2:23 am
I'll start off with responding to some of your points, then I'll move on to my own opener.
To be honest, you could have gone a lot harder with some these points. But the best is yet to come I'm sure.
Anyway, with that out of the way, time for my opener:
At first glance, due to Solusar's extremely limited showings and appearances, it might appear he's not all that noteworthy. But as I'll demonstrate, Solusar's feats + veteran status in the order + accolades all outstrip what Jaden can offer.
To start off with, Solusar's onetime status as Battlemaster means at one point he was the best swordsman in the order bar Luke.
As you've correctly pointed out, Kam was eventually replaced by Kyle Katarn. However all we know is that it happened some time between 12 and 19 ABY. So it's possible Katarn took up the position post 14 ABY. After Korr's apprenticeship to him.
However, all that's unimportant, since as you've already pointed out, the merits of the master don't have to extend to the apprentice. Bottom line is, Solusar's already super high up in the order when it comes to dueling skill.
Kam was also a Jedi Master for far longer. And he ascended to the rank far faster than Jaden. And of course, as we know, masters are generally the best of the order. On top of that, Kam was also a member of the High Council. He was among the best of the best.
Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:
While this isn't exactly the worst look for Jaden, the fact is that Kam was among the best of the Order. Jaden on the other hand is doubtful in his abilities to become a mere master until late into his career.
Now lets look into one of Kam's better feats:
In the Dark Empire 2 Audio Drama, Kam Solusar fought Luke Skywalker. Who is a complete beast in his own right.
A couple things to note:
-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.
However even with those above conditions, Solusar's performance is insane. Both he and Luke are grunting with effort and are actually getting tired. Luke even acknowledges that Kam may kill him when he says "If you kill me, I will gain powers beyond your imagination."
The duel lasts for a little over a minute. While that may not sound like a big deal, generally, lightsaber duels only last about a minute at most. So Kam's fight was rather protracted.
Now you may be thinking "But Luke was holding back. He's garbo when he holds back"
Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:
Yoda styles all over three great masters of the PT era. All without moving a meter
A depressed Luke Skywalker was able to casually dance around Cilghal and Kyp. In the middle of a conversation:
In both of these examples, both Luke and Yoda, in casual spars, whilst holding back, are able to style all over their opponents. The fact that both Luke and Kam were exhausted from their duel shows that Kam was capable of pressing DE Luke. Even if he lost, that is a higher feat than most can achieve.
I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric. But Solusar was able to give Luke a good fight. That in and of itself is far greater than almost anything Jaden has shown.
And of course, this is all from a complete noob Kam with only basic training. After this duel, Kam grows greatly. As evidenced by Luke saying "I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!"
Shortly after the above growth, Kam and Luke fight and defeat "impossible odds" of specially trained, elite, Dark Side amped Stormtroopers.
After that fight, a tired Solusar is able to easily oneshot his former master, Vill Goir.
While it's important to note that this is partially because Solusar is familiar with Goir's moves, the same is true in reverse, given that Goir was Kam's master.
As we see, even a noob Kam is out-doing Jaden in the feats department. And Kam obviously grows far more in the decades following this.
Lets move onto the most important and direct comparison between Kam and Jaden:
Alpha was a mad clone of Master Solusar. Before we delve into Jaden's fight with Alpha, let's first tie him to Kam.
We have precedence for clones of force users being at least on the level of their template. As we see with Joruus C'Baoth:
(Luuke too given his performance against Luke)
Alpha was grown in a Spaarti cylinder just like Joruus was.
There is one way these clones differed from the likes of C'Baoth:
They were bred with Jedi and Sith DNA. In hopes of creating a force user that transcends the limits of light and dark. We know the attempt was more or less a complete failure due to the almost complete dark sided nature of the clones. As well as Jaden's own description:
What's all this mean? Simply that there is nothing that puts Alpha far above Kam. Why? Well we know Alpha is almost completely a dark sider. So there goes the breakthrough Force user thing. And as I pointed out above, we've had cases like Joruus and Luuke where clones were close to if not equal to their templates.
As such, we can safely say Alpha>~Kam or Kam>~Alpha in the Force
Now unfortunately for Jaden, he did not perform so well against Kam's evil half:
Now a couple things to note about the circumstances behind this fight:
1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.
2: Alpha was physically stronger than Kam:
However, even with these two factors, Solusar is still favored far more.
While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:
Problem is, this is in a Force vision he had. So we can't really apply it to his power level in the book. So realistically, he can't be weakened to a vast degree.
As for Alpha's physical strength supremacy over Kam, Jaden himself in the next book notes that force power is more important than physical strength in lightsaber combat. So Alpha's advantage in this field is rather negligible:
So that leaves us with:
Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar
Looks pretty close, huh? While Kam scales above, Jaden still has a shot, right? No
Guess what Solusar has that Alpha doesn't have? Decades of Marial Arts training and experience. (both in the battlefield and in spars against master duelists of the order.)
Simply put, a fight between Jaden and Solusar would go much like Jaden's fight with Alpha. But the existing gap grows. Whereas once, all Jaden had to deal with was raw power, now he has to deal with that AND far, far, far more finesse and skill.
-Kam's accolades are far more impressive than Jaden's.
-Kam has arguably better feats.
-Jaden's struggle against Alpha supports the notion of Kam's supremacy. And even if peak Jaden could take Alpha, it still wouldn't save him from Kam's superior skill.
That concludes my post. Expect more on Solusar's skills, powers, etc in my next post.
Best of luck with your response. Looking forward to it. The stage is yours.
Responses:
There really isn't much to this category. Just a couple notes I had to your points.Do you really wanna be sending a quote that says "she's not as skilled as other enemies you face" when trying to hype her up?Fated Xtasy wrote:As an apprentice, Axmis was already a threat to Katarn.
--
“Tavion is no stranger to wielding a Lightsaber. Although her skills aren’t as finely polished as those of a Shadow Trooper or Reborn Boss(Master), she’s still a force to be reckoned with.”
Thankfully either will end favorably for the older master as will soon be clear.Fated Xtasy wrote:To summarize, Jaden's lightsaber abilities are nothing to scoff at, and when combined with the Force, he is a lethal opponent. Kam's advantage with the lightsaber is minimal at best and negligible at worse. Kam's combative applications of the force seem rather abysmal in comparison to a Force titan of Jaden's level. Solusar will have his pick of whether he wants to get up close and risk being TK'ed or stay at a distance that favors Korr.
To be honest, you could have gone a lot harder with some these points. But the best is yet to come I'm sure.
Anyway, with that out of the way, time for my opener:
The Forgotten Chad
At first glance, due to Solusar's extremely limited showings and appearances, it might appear he's not all that noteworthy. But as I'll demonstrate, Solusar's feats + veteran status in the order + accolades all outstrip what Jaden can offer.
Accolades:
To start off with, Solusar's onetime status as Battlemaster means at one point he was the best swordsman in the order bar Luke.
- Battlemaster:
- The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster. This Jedi was the head instructor of lightsaber combat and sometimes lived at the temple training full time. Some well-known battlemasters are Cin Drallig, Kam Solusar and Kyle Katarn, who was the last to use the title.
-Jedi Academy Miniatures Preview 3
As you've correctly pointed out, Kam was eventually replaced by Kyle Katarn. However all we know is that it happened some time between 12 and 19 ABY. So it's possible Katarn took up the position post 14 ABY. After Korr's apprenticeship to him.
However, all that's unimportant, since as you've already pointed out, the merits of the master don't have to extend to the apprentice. Bottom line is, Solusar's already super high up in the order when it comes to dueling skill.
Kam was also a Jedi Master for far longer. And he ascended to the rank far faster than Jaden. And of course, as we know, masters are generally the best of the order. On top of that, Kam was also a member of the High Council. He was among the best of the best.
- Master:
-Encyclopedia
Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:
- Refusal:
"I want to ask you something else, Jaden. You were offered a Master's rank long ago, but declined. Why?"
Jaden thought hard about the answer. "I did not think myself ready for the responsibility."
-Riptide
While this isn't exactly the worst look for Jaden, the fact is that Kam was among the best of the Order. Jaden on the other hand is doubtful in his abilities to become a mere master until late into his career.
Now lets look into one of Kam's better feats:
Fight with Luke
In the Dark Empire 2 Audio Drama, Kam Solusar fought Luke Skywalker. Who is a complete beast in his own right.
A couple things to note:
-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.
However even with those above conditions, Solusar's performance is insane. Both he and Luke are grunting with effort and are actually getting tired. Luke even acknowledges that Kam may kill him when he says "If you kill me, I will gain powers beyond your imagination."
The duel lasts for a little over a minute. While that may not sound like a big deal, generally, lightsaber duels only last about a minute at most. So Kam's fight was rather protracted.
Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting:particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru.
-Dynasty of Evil
Now you may be thinking "But Luke was holding back. He's garbo when he holds back"
Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:
Yoda styles all over three great masters of the PT era. All without moving a meter
- Yoda:
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Bil-laba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
A depressed Luke Skywalker was able to casually dance around Cilghal and Kyp. In the middle of a conversation:
- LOTF:
Luke felt the approach of Cilghal from behind. He leapt up and backward, inverting as he flew, and blocked the Mon Cal Master's strike with his blade in passing. He landed behind her.
--
Kyp advanced against Luke again, striking at Luke's ankles while Cilghal engaged the Grand Master's blade. Luke danced over the low strike and put a foot into Cilghal's torso, more of a push than a kick, before landing again. The Mon Cal staggered back a few steps, offering a nod of appreciation.
--
Luke felt Cilghal's approach behind him. He bent over backward, his lightsaber hand coming down on the landing pad surface to hold his upper body clear of it, and Cilghal's lightsaber passed through where his waist would have been. Luke instantly straightened, catching her hilt with his free hand, and stepped away, her lightsaber now in his grip. He twirled one blade at each Master. "Go on."
-Legacy of the Force: Fury
In both of these examples, both Luke and Yoda, in casual spars, whilst holding back, are able to style all over their opponents. The fact that both Luke and Kam were exhausted from their duel shows that Kam was capable of pressing DE Luke. Even if he lost, that is a higher feat than most can achieve.
I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric. But Solusar was able to give Luke a good fight. That in and of itself is far greater than almost anything Jaden has shown.
And of course, this is all from a complete noob Kam with only basic training. After this duel, Kam grows greatly. As evidenced by Luke saying "I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!"
Shortly after the above growth, Kam and Luke fight and defeat "impossible odds" of specially trained, elite, Dark Side amped Stormtroopers.
- Impossible Odds:
-Dark Empire 2
After that fight, a tired Solusar is able to easily oneshot his former master, Vill Goir.
- Oneshot:
-Dark Empire 2
While it's important to note that this is partially because Solusar is familiar with Goir's moves, the same is true in reverse, given that Goir was Kam's master.
As we see, even a noob Kam is out-doing Jaden in the feats department. And Kam obviously grows far more in the decades following this.
Lets move onto the most important and direct comparison between Kam and Jaden:
Alpha
Alpha was a mad clone of Master Solusar. Before we delve into Jaden's fight with Alpha, let's first tie him to Kam.
We have precedence for clones of force users being at least on the level of their template. As we see with Joruus C'Baoth:
- Joruus:
-Fact File 86
(Luuke too given his performance against Luke)
Alpha was grown in a Spaarti cylinder just like Joruus was.
A hole opened in the center of the room, a perfect circle several meters in diameter, like the gullet of some gargantuan beast. Machinery hung from armatures above the hole. Jaden recognized the apparatus immediately—a Spaarti cloning cylinder.
-Crosscurrent
There is one way these clones differed from the likes of C'Baoth:
- Spoiler:
- Jaden inhaled, then dived in, speaking to Khedryn the way he might have to R6, the way he did when confessing a transgression. "I suspect they recombined the DNA of Jedi with the DNA of Sith."
Khedryn's lazy eye floated in its socket, fixing on nothing, as if it did not want to see. "Why would they do that? Being a Jedi or a Sith is a choice, isn't it? It's not biology."
Jaden shook his head. "We didn't know all there is to know about how biology meshes with Force use. Perhaps they sought to create some kind of breakthrough Force-user, one unbound by the limitations of light and dark."
-Crosscurrent
They were bred with Jedi and Sith DNA. In hopes of creating a force user that transcends the limits of light and dark. We know the attempt was more or less a complete failure due to the almost complete dark sided nature of the clones. As well as Jaden's own description:
Making contact almost instantly, he winced at the bitter recoil caused by the touch of a dark sider—but not a pure dark sider. Jaden felt the dark side as though it were adulterated with... something else, the same way his own signature was that of a light-side user adulterated with... something else.
-Crosscurrent
What's all this mean? Simply that there is nothing that puts Alpha far above Kam. Why? Well we know Alpha is almost completely a dark sider. So there goes the breakthrough Force user thing. And as I pointed out above, we've had cases like Joruus and Luuke where clones were close to if not equal to their templates.
As such, we can safely say Alpha>~Kam or Kam>~Alpha in the Force
Now unfortunately for Jaden, he did not perform so well against Kam's evil half:
- Alpha Fight:
- The clone reverse-backflipped, balancing on the pit's edge, then immediately charged Jaden again. He feinted low and unleashed a vicious overhand blow, then another, and another. Jaden parried each one, but the blows began to numb his arms. He let the Force soothe his muscles and augment his strength, and answered with a flurry of blows of his own.
The clone gave no ground, and Jaden could not penetrate his defenses. They crossed blades at the chest, weapons sizzling, the sparks from the clone's blade searing scorch marks into Jaden's suit. The clone grunted, shoved Jaden two meters backward, and lunged after him.
Jaden leapt over his head, flipping, his blade slashing down as he flew over the clone, but the clone parried. Jaden landed on his feet on the edge of the pit and the clone was upon him, forcing his lightsaber high and landing a Force-augmented kick in his chest. Ribs snapped and Jaden staggered backward.
--
Jaden used the Force to deaden the blow, but his broken ribs ground against one another and he hissed with pain. By now the clone had recovered enough to charge. He attacked high, low, overhand, cross-cuts, Jaden parried them all while backing off. The clone did not relent, pressing Jaden further, faster. Jaden answered where he could but the clone's blade seemed everywhere. Jaden parried left, right, again, again, until he felt a sharp, stinging sensation and both his lightsaber and three fingers went flying off into the darkness.
-Crosscurrent
Now a couple things to note about the circumstances behind this fight:
1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.
2: Alpha was physically stronger than Kam:
- Physically Stronger:
Jaden caught the suggestion of an imposing physicality, controlled savagery. He looked larger than Kam, more there.
-Crosscurrent
However, even with these two factors, Solusar is still favored far more.
While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:
- Benighted:
Drawing his robes tightly about him to ward off the cold, he focused his hearing, but heard nothing over the wind except the gong of his heartbeat in his ears. With difficulty, he reached out with his Force sense through the fog of his benighted sensitivity, trying to feel the world around him indirectly. Through the dull operation of his expanded consciousness he sensed something...
-Crosscurrent
Problem is, this is in a Force vision he had. So we can't really apply it to his power level in the book. So realistically, he can't be weakened to a vast degree.
As for Alpha's physical strength supremacy over Kam, Jaden himself in the next book notes that force power is more important than physical strength in lightsaber combat. So Alpha's advantage in this field is rather negligible:
"Now I'll teach you some basics of lightsaber combat. As before, feel the Force throughout. Very little about this is physical. Your strength and speed is not in muscle and tendon, but in your relationship to the Force. Let it flow through you, inform your movements. What you're capable of will surprise you, if you let it."
-Riptide
So that leaves us with:
Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar
Looks pretty close, huh? While Kam scales above, Jaden still has a shot, right? No
Guess what Solusar has that Alpha doesn't have? Decades of Marial Arts training and experience. (both in the battlefield and in spars against master duelists of the order.)
Simply put, a fight between Jaden and Solusar would go much like Jaden's fight with Alpha. But the existing gap grows. Whereas once, all Jaden had to deal with was raw power, now he has to deal with that AND far, far, far more finesse and skill.
Conclusions:
-Kam's accolades are far more impressive than Jaden's.
-Kam has arguably better feats.
-Jaden's struggle against Alpha supports the notion of Kam's supremacy. And even if peak Jaden could take Alpha, it still wouldn't save him from Kam's superior skill.
That concludes my post. Expect more on Solusar's skills, powers, etc in my next post.
Best of luck with your response. Looking forward to it. The stage is yours.
hellothere5432
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
April 23rd 2022, 10:54 pm
Good opener.
- Fated Xtasy
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
May 2nd 2022, 12:26 am
You're missing the point, she's still a force to be reckoned with, and she's an apprentice at this stage in her life. Do try to keep up, darlin'.Chris Cortosis wrote:
Do you really wanna be sending a quote that says "she's not as skilled as other enemies you face" when trying to hype her up?
The cruelest thing of all is false hope, Chris.Thankfully either will end favorably for the older master as will soon be clear.
Praise and constructive critique? you’re sweet! Flattery won’t win you this debate, but it might win you a special consolation prize if you play your cards right.To be honest, you could have gone a lot harder with some these points. But the best is yet to come I'm sure.
If that were the case we wouldn't be having this debate. Let me show you just how the ancients did it back in the golden age.At first glance, due to Solusar's extremely limited showings and appearances, it might appear he's not all that noteworthy. But as I'll demonstrate, Solusar's feats + veteran status in the order + accolades all outstrip what Jaden can offer.
That’s certainly a stretch. But I can’t wait to see youTo start off with, Solusar's onetime status as Battlemaster means at one point he was the best swordsman in the order bar Luke.
Nope, Katarn became Battlemaster between 12ABY and 13ABYAs you've correctly pointed out, Kam was eventually replaced by Kyle Katarn. However all we know is that it happened some time between 12 and 19 ABY. So it's possible Katarn took up the position post 14 ABY. After Korr's apprenticeship to him.
Kyle's simply better!The Dark Forces Saga wrote:Kyle again went rogue, working loosely with Jan on unofficial New Republic missions. Nearly eight years after Kyle defeated Jerec on Ruusan, the valley was threatened once again, this time by a former student of Master Skywalker called Desann, forcing Kyle to work alongside Luke to protect the galaxy. After defeating the Dark Jedi, Kyle returned to the Jedi academy with renewed confidence.
Kyle became the academy's foremost battlemaster, honing the skills of countless Jedi students like Jaden Korr, and stopping the dark side berserker Jeng Droga
Right, but the knowledge they impart does, which you didn't refute, so I'm assuming that we're in agreement there.
However, all that's unimportant, since as you've already pointed out, the merits of the master don't have to extend to the apprentice.
I look forward to seeing you prove thisBottom line is, Solusar's already super high up in the order when it comes to dueling skill.
Comparatively speaking, Korr ascended the ranks faster than Solusar. Jaden went from an initiate to an apprentice, to a Knight in a span of a year. Meaning that Korr was a Jedi Knight at the age of 13-14 which is an impressive feat for one so young, don’t you think?Kam was also a Jedi Master for far longer. And he ascended to the rank far faster than Jaden. And of course, as we know, masters are generally the best of the order. On top of that, Kam was also a member of the High Council. He was among the best of the best.
By contrast, Solusar was trained as a Jedi Knight by Ranik Solusar and later as a DS adept by Vil Goir nevertheless Solusar was considered a trainee by Luke in spite of all of Kam’s training.
Moreover, those quotes regarding Jedi Masters are a generalization that could likewise be applied to Korr at the end of his career. You have my thanks!
Read that again, please. “HIS” lack of confidence in HIS ability. Clearly, Skywalker, Katarn, and the rest of the Council thought highly of his skills. This is supported by Kyp Durron— a contemporary of Solusar—who states the following;Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:
- Jaden impresses Duron:
- Backlash wrote:Korr, a man of Coruscant and onetime apprentice of Kyle Katarn, was far too serious for Kyp’s taste, but had conducted a long and impressive career as a Jedi Knight.
- A Promising Trainee:
- Jedi Academy: Luke wrote:"Kyle's right, there are still missions for you to undertake, and we can't neglect the training of one of our most promising students."
- Valuable Knight:
- Jedi Academy: Luke wrote:"Jaden, you fought bravely. resisted the dark side and save another Jedi from certain death. You will be a valuable member of the Jedi Order."
While this isn't exactly the worst look for Jaden, the fact is that Kam was among the best of the Order. Jaden on the other hand is doubtful in his abilities to become a mere master until late into his career.
And Jaina states she believes there are knights and masters more powerful than her yet she becomes the sword of the Jedi, Anakin Solo is doubtful of his abilities as a Jedi yet he’s dubbed the next Luke Skywalker, The Emperor’s Wrath believes they might die facing Baras yet the Dark Council ultimately bows to their unquestionable might after the Wrath kills the old Darth. As I stated above, Jaden refused the rank of Master, but as far as Luke, Katarn, and the Council were concerned Jaden was ready.
I appreciate the concession.A couple things to note:
-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.
Solusar also acknowledges that Luke could best him at the very beginning? If that was all that was exchanged between them I’d be happy to concede that the quote indicates that the battle is close, but unfortunately Luke goes on to say that Kam‘s dark side powers are “nothing” to him almost immediately after. So his performance isn’t as insane as you make it out to be. I’ll expand on this thought later.However even with those above conditions, Solusar's performance is insane. Both he and Luke are grunting with effort and are actually getting tired. Luke even acknowledges that Kam may kill him when he says "If you kill me, I will gain powers beyond your imagination."
If you want to talk about protracted, then look no further than Korr having to fight his way through Taspir III where he fights a tremendous amount of Reborn/CultistsThe duel lasts for a little over a minute. While that may not sound like a big deal, generally, lightsaber duels only last about a minute at most. So Kam's fight was rather protracted.
- Ambush! :
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:The Cultists are in hiding and waiting to ambush you. After you finish off a total of four Cultists, proceed to the next hallway, kill the Reborn there, and exit into the forcefield command room.”
- Reborn defeated:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“After the four reborn are defeated..”
- Reborn destroyed:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“A cutscene will occur, and you will be attacked by a staff wielding Reborn, destroy him..”
The Reborn are resistant to most Force Powers:- Resistant Reborn:
- Jedi Outcast Perfect Guide wrote:Reborn Jedi are not to be written off as pushovers. Force Powers don't work well against them. but short and quick blows with the lightsaber do.
- Versatile Reborn:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide. wrote:“Reborn Adept use either a single lightsaber(with all three combat styles active), a dual-bladed saber, or dual lightsabers.."
- Advanced Duelists:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“[Cult Advanced Duelist] Like the standard duelists, except they use basic defensive Force Powers.”
- Selective Force Mastery:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:"[Grip Cultist] Has trained exclusively in the Dark Side of the Force mastering Force Grip”
“Drain Cultist: Just like above, but they use Force Drain instead of grip.”
“Lightning Cultist: Just like above, but uses Force Lightning.”
Korr was destroying Reborn and Cultists by the handful. Even with the advantage of throwing Dark Jedi at Korr, Alora still couldn't beat him on Taspi, and in fact, Korr seemingly destroys her.- Jaden V Alora: Is Jaden taxed?:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:"No matter what path you choose, you must fight Alora. She has two sabers, but can still be beaten with the standard tactics. Use Absorb often since she likes to use Force Powers and then attack with your saber. If you find that your Force Power is low, then you can simply run from her."
- Jaden Vs Alora: Jaden wins solidly:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:"She is a lot tougher than your first encounter so don't expect to corner her and take her out too quickly. Once you destroy her, the mission is complete, and depending on your choice, you are now a Dark Jedi or Light Jedi."
The text indicates that Jaden destroys Alora which implies that Korr bested her pretty solidly, which is impressive given the series of Reborn, Cultists and Stormtroopers he was facing prior to this confrontation. . So while I’m not all comparing the Reborn/Alora to Luke, I will say that the sheer amount of opponents that Korr had to face simultaneously and consecutively—by himself I might add—showcases that’s he’s beyond the likes of Solusar.
However, I’d like to finally touch on my previous comment wherein I mention Solusar’s control and inexperience. Here, Luke states that while Kam is skilled he’s objectively inexperienced.- Post DE Kam lacks Experience:
- —Luke Skywalker; Jedi Academy Training Manual. wrote:Some of my students here—Keiran Halycon and Kam Solusar—are gifted duelists, but neither has all that much experience as yet.
While this could be dismissed as a one-off statement, it’s later reinforced in the Jedi Academy novel wherein the following is said:- Post DE Kam progresses Slowly:
- JAT: Dark Apprentice wrote:Of all those Luke had gathered at his Jedi training center, Gantoris had so far shown the most progress, the most inner strength--yet (JA Dark Apprentice)
“The most progress.” For all his skill the Jedi “Knight” seems to fall short in comparison to a mere trainee, this seems to tie together with Luke’s thoughts on Solusar being inexperienced.
Moreover, we have Kam himself admitting he lacks the control necessary to duel someone like Corran- Post DE Kam lacks Control:
- I. Jedi wrote:Kam explained that there were still things I needed to learn from a living foe and that he, Kam did not have the control necessary to spar with me
Even if I grant you that Solusar status as the acting instructor is emblematic of Kam’s overall combative ability, there’s still the matter of his lack of control, inexperience, and more importantly, Luke’s dismissive attitude towards Solusar
You’ve already admitted that Skywalker was holding back, But I really want to highlight how the usual “everyone is stronger than me” Luke Skywalker rhetoric is completely thrown out the window when Luke states that Solusar is “nothing” to him. Meaning that Skywalker is—for once—adamant in his belief that someone cannot defeat him which is a rare moment for Luke. Which is to say, that Solusar wasn’t matching Luke by any stretch of the imagination.Now you may be thinking "But Luke was holding back. He's garbo when he holds back"
Right, but the showing is indicative of Luke/Yoda’s mastery and their apprentice’s lack thereof. Ergo, the feat benefits Skywalker/Yoda, but not their opponents.Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:
As I said, that’s not an indication of Kam’s abilities. If Luke held back, then it would be LUKE who would have to make sure that HE doesn’t hurt Kam, and that Kam doesn’t hurt him.In both of these examples, both Luke and Yoda, in casual spars, whilst holding back, are able to style all over their opponents.
The fact that both Luke and Kam were exhausted from their duel shows that Kam was capable of pressing DE Luke. Even if he lost, that is a higher feat than most can achieve.
If you’re holding back and not trying to kill someone who is definitely trying to kill you the probability of exhaustion would be high, yes. However, Luke held back per your concession and still managed to tax Solusar who was giving it his all just to keep up with Luke.
I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric. But Solusar was able to give Luke a good fight. That in and of itself is far greater than almost anything Jaden has shown.
Indulge me a moment and review what’s been presented, will you?- Luke firmly believes Kam’s Dark Side powers are “nothing.”
- Kam admits to Corran that he lacks the control to spar with him, thus his base skill set is called into question”
- Luke states that Kam is “gifted” but similarly “inexperienced”
- Solusar is outshined by the neophyte Gantoris in terms of “progress.”
- Luke could have made heads roll, but he chose to hold back.
Put this together and what we have left is that Kam's inexperienced, uncontrolled, and underdeveloped dark side abilities are nothing to a Luke Skywalker who is holding back in hopes of redeeming Solusar. Simply put, the performance isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seem.
Jaden however was impressive from the get-go. He was one of the academy's most promising students, he was constantly praised by Luke/Katarn, and was held in high esteem by veterans like Chewbacca and Wedge early in his career.
And of course, this is all from a complete noob Kam with only basic training. After this duel, Kam grows greatly. As evidenced by Luke saying "I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!"
Right, that did in fact happen, but Luke later states Kam isn’t as seasoned, Kam admits that he lacks self-control, and he progresses slower than a neophyte. So while I can appreciate your attempt to make this appear as though he’s grown in power, I'd go ahead and call this hyperbole as it’s more of an indication that Kam has been redeemed as opposed to having grown exponentially.
Shortly after the above growth, Kam and Luke fight and defeat "impossible odds" of specially trained, elite, Dark Side amped Stormtroopers.
You know as well as I that the Ysanna were also fighting against the Dark Troopers.- Ysanna vs Dark Troopers:
- Force Sensitives fight Valiantly:
That said, regarding impossible odds just look at Trainee Jaden was clearinghouse on Hoth.- A Fierce Battle on Hoth:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“This is an easy path to follow, but the resistance is pretty fierce.”
Alora states Jaden destroyed her Forces.- Alora's Guard:
- Jedi Academy: Alora wrote:"Ah. You must be the saber-wielding troublemaker who neutralized our perimeter guard."
As an apprentice, Jaden was carving through Bast Castle- Jedi Child Vs Dark Jedi:
- ]quote="—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide"]The final leg of your quest is a large room filled with lots of Stormtroopers, including a rocket trooper.[/quote]—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:There are two cultists waiting at the bottom of the lift, and a third waiting at the top.—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:You come out on the upper catwalk of the big room, where you’re engaged by a tougher Reborn. Take him out and leave by the door he came through.—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:You find yourself in a small barracks room guarded by a couple of troopers and a ceiling turret.—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:You emerge in a combination barracks/armory guarded by a few troopers. Move on through. A Reborn waits for you on the catwalk beyond. When he’s done, hide behind the circular shaft for more intriguing conversation. On the other side are two cultists and some troopers—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:At the top of the lift are a cultist and a Reborn. This is a tough fight. Try to take out the lesser of the two quickly, so you can concentrate on the other. The Door is sealed, but there’s an explosive crate by the window. Blow it up! Expect to get attacked pretty much immediately by a couple more Cultists and a Rocket Trooper.—Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:You come out in a dingy repair shop where you have to duel a Reborn with dual sabers.
After all this Jaden enters Vader’s training area and completes his training regiment.- Jaden Vs Vader....'s training regiment:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“The next room is Darth Vader’s old personal training area.”
Hit the switch in the middle to release four challenges, in order:
Two interrogator droids.
Twi Sentry droids.
Two assassin droids.
Two fencing droids.
Which Jaden “destroys” Vader's training regiment- Regiment destroyed:
- —Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide wrote:“When all four are destroyed, the door unseals..”
Remind me again, is Vil Goir sub Cultist?After that fight, a tired Solusar is able to easily oneshot his former master, Vill Goir.
As we see, even a noob Kam is out-doing Jaden in the feats department.
No, he isn’t. Kam’s fight against Luke is something even younglings could replicate if we factor in Kam’s inexperience, lack of control, underdeveloped abilities, and Luke having to hold back. This isn’t something beyond Jaden as of 14ABY, let alone peak Jaden.
Beating Dark Troopers with the assistance of the Theysanna is likewise not beyond Jaden as we’ve seen him literally take on hordes of Stormtroopers, Cultists, Mercs, and Reborn. Kam’s not outdoing anyone here.
Please elaborate on his growth.And Kam obviously grows far more in the decades following this.
We have precedence for clones of force users being at least on the level of their template. As we see with Joruus C'Baoth:
Right, the clones of Luke and C’baoth may be, but recall that C’baoth’s clone was created from just C’baoth DNA as opposed to being combined with Jedi/Sith DNA. While in C’baoth’s case the Clone is as powerful as the original, in this case, we’re dealing with the unquantifiable factor of additional DNA making up the Sith-Jedi Clones. Unfortunately for you, the variable in this equation was already been accounted for by yours truly
I'll elaborate on this later.
They were bred with Jedi and Sith DNA. In hopes of creating a force user that transcends the limits of light and dark. We know the attempt was more or less a complete failure due to the almost complete dark sided nature of the clones. As well as Jaden's own description:
That’s just straight-up false bro. The fact of the matter is that the clone community is made up of the DNA of several different Force users composed of Lumiya, Mara Jade, Kyle, and Jaden himself. While you can say that the experiment was a failure, the clones are still spliced with the DNA differing from the originals hence their potential is stated to have grown at an alarming rate.- Clone's Mastery:
- —Star Wars: Crosscurrent(Dr. Black) wrote:“Memory imprinting will begin soon, though the subjects appear to have been born with extant knowledge of their Force sensitivity. All have exhibited mastery of basic and moderately advanced Force techniques.”
- Midi-chlorian Count:
- —Star Wars: Crosscurrent wrote:Testing reveals an extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count in all subjects. Grand Admiral Thrawn has been apprised of the results."
They mastered their basic ability and some advanced abilities. Jaden, the alleged genetic template, built a lightsaber with no knowledge of how to do so and had to go to the Academy to Master his abilities. Solusar, similarly, had to undergo training a total of three times in order to achieve mastery of his abilities as well. These clones had a high midi-chlorian count and were exhibiting mastery over the Force with no training. That doesn’t sound like a failure to me
You’re wrong though, the quotes above objectively state that the Clones mastered their abilities and have a tremendous amount of potential. Furthermore, the Clones are stated to continue to grow in power as time passes byWhat's all this mean? Simply that there is nothing that puts Alpha far above Kam.- Growing Power:
- —Star Wars: Crosscurrent(Dr. Gray) wrote:"... their hostility toward their confinement is growing, as is their power.”
quote]Why? Well we know Alpha is almost completely a dark sider. So there goes the breakthrough Force user thing. And as I pointed out above, we've had cases like Joruus and Luuke where clones were close to if not equal to their templates. [/quote]
If the clones were simply created from the genetic material of their templates I’d be inclined to agree with that, unfortunately, they’re confirmed to have spliced with Jedi and Sith genes.- Born of Sith & Jedi:
- Riptide wrote:Master Katarn had tried indirectly to teach him as much, but Jaden hadn't fully learned the lesson until he'd traveled to an uncharted moon in the Unknown Regions and faced Force-using clones born of Sith and Jedi genes.
So if the clones are equal to their donors as has been stated, then the addition of Sith/Jedi genes would make them stronger than their counterparts.
As I’ve said before, the Clones impressed the scientists, achieved several levels of mastery and continued to grow in power this all puts Alpha above Kam Solusar as he possesses all the strength of the genetic template and then some. This isn’t detrimental to Jaden however as we see that though he’s bested by Alpha, the cards are stacked against him as his connection to the Force is muddied, and while you’re welcome to disagree, the reality is that Korr goes from losing to Alpha to stalemating his own Clone in a brief duel and holding back a pair of Clones.
As such, we can safely say Alpha>~Kam or Kam>~Alpha in the Force
Not in this multiverse, bud. If I have to adhere to a chain it would be more like this:
Peak!Jaden=Soldier>The Entire Clones. Soldier is consistently stated to be the greatest of the clones by three different sources.
The first being the Omniscient Narrator and it's further reinforced by the statement of "They knew it, and he knew it."- Soldier was the best:
- Riptide wrote:He(Soldier) was different from the others. They knew it and he knew it. He was the best of them, the final specimen created by the doctors, and he showed no signs of the illness that afflicted the rest. Only the children treated him as one of them
Seer, the Community Leader acknowledges his superiority over them.- Seer admits inferiority:
- Riptide wrote:He dared not pick up the conversational thread she'd left dangling. "Whatever we flew through sped up the onset of the illness. It will kill us all."
A sly look entered her dark eyes. "Not you, Soldier. Never you. The doctors made you perfect. In body and mind."
and lastly, the One Sith and their agents refer to Soldier as the Prime.- The One Sith and their Agents:
- Riptide wrote:"Yes," Nyss said. "The Prime is not fully susceptible to our power. So it was more difficult than I expected."
So we have precedence for Soldier>Clones.
Now here, we see Jaden is able to match his clone in almost every aspect- Jaden vs Jaden:
- ]quote="Riptide"]One of the clones turned the corner of the stairs below him. He looked vaguely familiar to Jaden, but his long beard and shaggy hair made his features hard to discern. He wore a threadbare Imperial uniform a size too small, the whole covered in a gray cloak made from sewn blankets. The red blade of his lightsaber sizzled and sparked, its edges irregular.
The clone's wild, bloodshot eyes widened when he saw Jaden. Jaden took advantage of the clone's surprise. He drew on the Force, extended a hand, and struck the clone with a blast of concussive energy so strong it blew the clone back down the stairs and drove him into the floor. The clone lay there, dazed.
"Runner!" said a female voice.
Jaden took the stairs three at a time, bounded past the fallen clone, and saw two more-a woman, lithe and bald, and a man, tall, with long, straight brown hair and a beard. The woman carried a small girl. The man carried an unconscious woman, but when he saw Jaden, he let her slide to the ground and activated his lightsaber, red and angry.
Jaden lunged forward. The woman backed off a step, shielding the child, and the man met his charge, parrying Jaden's overhand slash with his red blade.
Across the intersected blades, Jaden locked eyes with the clone-and gasped.
He was staring into gray eyes the mirror of his own.
The realization took a moment to register, and when it did, it hit him like a punch in the face, staggering him. He lost focus, lost his concentration. The realization pulled a single word from him as implications crashed down on him.
"How?"
The clone unleashed a blast of Force that drove Jaden up against the far wall. Jaden recovered himself enough to cushion the impact with the Force, but the clone followed up immediately, leaping forward and unleashing a crosscut at Jaden's throat.
Jaden ducked under the red blade at the last moment and it cut a deep groove in the wall, causing a shower of sparks. He kicked out a leg and swept the clone's legs, but instead of falling prone, the clone caught himself on one hand before hitting the ground, pushed off, and backflipped away from Jaden.
Battle cleared the surprise from Jaden's mind, and the moment the clone's feet touched the ground, Jaden unleashed a blast of power designed to slam him into the wall.
The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden's blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage.[/quote]
Thus we can safely establish that Korr is similarly as Powerful as Soldier (if not more so) and is consequently >The Clones, including Alpha. Since the clones are stated to be extremely powerful, we could say Alpha>Solusar or Clones>Genetic Templates just for funsies. But let's say I—hypothetically—concede this point and agree that Solusar and his clone are equals. The Jaden clone is still the best of the clones, Jaden still stalemates Soldier, and the chain remains mostly the same. Jaden=Soldier>Alpha>~Kam
Take your pick!
Now unfortunately for Jaden, he did not perform so well against Kam's evil half:
Due to a benighted force sensitivity, which you yourself have stated is the most important aspect of a duelist. Therefore if his connection is damaged, then his performance would also take a hit. Not to mention the vast difference in Jaden's performances in Riptide V Crosscurrent.
1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.
I agree, your concession is accepted.
2: Alpha was physically stronger than Kam:
Indeed! And is similarly stronger in the Force per the above quotes.
However, even with these two factors, Solusar is still favored far more.
How exactly? You’ve failed to respond to my comments stating that Korr’s Telekinetic abilities vastly outstrip Solusar’s own. Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response. Your claim that Solusar did well is also now being called into question as there’s now irrefutable proof that Solusar was a pretty incompetent Jedi Knight. So again, how is he still favored? Educate me!
While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:
It doesn’t matter if we can’t quantify it, the point is it was enough to hamper his connection and his overall performance. Again, we have evidence within the novel themselves in terms of his performance. He goes from being overwhelmed by Alpha, to casually dismissing Runner(Kyle Clone) and stalemating his own clone. As if that wasn't enough we also have the following discussion between Luke and Jaden:- Luke and Jaden:
- Riptide wrote:In time, Grand Master Skywalker's soft but commanding voice, disembodied and ghostly, reached across the light-years. "Jaden. We had begun to worry. Are you all right?"
"I am now, Master Skywalker."
"I can feel that, Jaden. Something in you has changed, and changed for the better. There is a calmness in you that I haven't sensed for a very long time. Master Katarn, especially, will be glad to know that."
The words pleased Jaden. "Will you tell Master Katarn that I understand now, that I looked for dragons but found none?"
"Should I know what that means?"
Jaden smiled. "No, but I think he will."
"I'll tell him."
Moreover, even Jaden state he feels different.- Jaden feels like himself again.:
- Riptide wrote:And that was that. Jaden would train Marr. And he would pursue the clones.
He felt more himself than he had in years.
Clearly, his connection was distorted enough for Luke to sense a great change in Jaden and likewise, Jaden was able to feel it himself. So to reiterate, Jaden, as you've already stated was not at 100% in Crosscurrent and therefore not fighting his best against Alpha.
Problem is, this is in a Force vision he had. So we can't really apply it to his power level in the book. So realistically, he can't be weakened to a vast degree.
You’re going on record and saying that the Force is more important in a duel per Jaden’s comments, but then you want to disregard the reality that is Jaden’s disrupted connection? The reality is we have evidence from both Jaden and Luke himself stating that as of Riptide there's a great change in Korr, great enough to be noticed by the Grandmaster. Even Relin in Crosscurrent notes that just as rage is pouring off of him so is doubt pouring off of Jaden.- Jaden's doubt:
- Crosscurrent wrote:Relin leaned forward, his watery, bloodshot eyes nailing Jaden to his chair. "Anger pours off me? Well, doubt pours off you; uncertainty. I know what gives birth to that. What did you do?"
We all know that doubt is the enemy of the Jedi as we see in ESB when Luke doubt's he could do what Yoda wants him to do.
As for Alpha's physical strength supremacy over Kam,
Glad to see you agree that Alpha’s superior to Solusar in that regard, concession accepted.
Jaden himself in the next book notes that force power is more important than physical strength in lightsaber combat.
Which is fine and dandy but the fact remains. Physical ability can be a turning point in combat. For Example- Skill Vs Strength:
- Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Savage reined blows down on the slim Jedi, roaring as he tried to crash through her defences. Little by little Adi fell back, all her skillno match for his enourmous strength.
- Cybernetic Strength:
- Fightsaber: Mastering the Art of Lightsaber Combat wrote:In close combat, the same exercises can be used to counter incoming attacks, transforming parries into counterstrikes with little loss of energy and the addition of raw strength. Form V calls for the user to press the attack, pushing the opponent back and causing them to lose their footing. Darth Vader heavily favored Form V, as it put his cybernetically enhanced strength to good use. Form V's use in strictly melee combat came to be known as Djem So. Form V is also known as the Way of the Krayt Dragon, or the Perseverance Form.
- Physical Strength = More Aggressive:
- SW: Galaxies wrote:By using a higher level of physical strength, the Djem So focus makes Jedi attacks more aggressive in combat.
- Tremendous Strength vs Technical Skill:
- ROTS Novel wrote:But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-ceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet—and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down— Skywalker was already there.
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step.
Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—
So, in various works, we see the importance of strength, especially to those who have a tremendous amount of physical ability like Savage, Anakin, Vader, and so on. While you may consider it negligible the fact is Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him as a duelist. Now combine that lean physicality with the Force and the end result is a battering-ram-like combatant. Doesn’t help that Jaden wasn’t at his peak either.
While you may be entitled to consider physical strength negligible in this situation, the fact is an advantage is still an advantage! Regardless of what you may believe Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him. Now combine that physicality with the Force and you have lethal opponent akin to SavageSo Alpha's advantage in this field is rather negligible:
Again, by virtue of the quotes regarding the growth of the Clones, Alpha is considerably stronger than Solusar combine that with Korr’s saturated connection and you have a recipe for disaster. You’ve posted the importance of the Force in combat, Korr’s connection was being hindered. Ergo he’s not fighting his best against Alpha because of it.
So that leaves us with:
Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar
Nope! Jaden as of Riptide is equal to Soldier who in turn is the strongest of the Clones so the chain is more
Jaden=Soldier>Clones>Benighted! Jaden>Kam
Looks pretty close, huh? While Kam scales above, Jaden still has a shot, right? No
Perhaps in your distorted reality, but here you’ll adhere to the truth or go mad denying it.
Guess what Solusar has that Alpha doesn't have? Decades of Marial Arts training and experience. (both in the battlefield and in spars against master duelists of the order.)
Didn’t help old Solusar against GAG did it? Inferno wrote:Jaina turned her attention to the courtyard below and was horrified to see Kam Solusar on the ground, three columns of smoke rising from his motionless body. Ozlo and Jerga were in even worse shape, their long Mon Calamari heads cratered with blaster pocks.
Simply put, a fight between Jaden and Solusar would go much like Jaden's fight with Alpha. But the existing gap grows.
The gap neither exists nor has it grown. But please feel free to educate me.
Whereas once, all Jaden had to deal with was raw power, now he has to deal with that AND far, far, far more finesse and skill.
He’s dealt with finesse and skill. The issue for you is that Kam is not going to have the same advantages as Alpha. Jaden’s connection to the Force won’t be holding him back, and Kam won’t have the advantage of savage-like strength. You’re operating on the belief that Kam is infinitely better than Jaden but the truth is he’s not. Kam’s going to have to find a response for Jaden’s Force+Saber combo, and seeing how he didn’t have a response for Sedriss’ Force Choke I doubt he'll have an answer for Jaden's Force Abilities.
-Kam's accolades are far more impressive than Jaden's. Countered
Kam has arguably better feats.
Countered
Jaden's struggle against Alpha supports the notion of Kam's supremacy. And even if peak Jaden could take Alpha, it still wouldn't save him from Kam's superior skill.
Countered
Thus far, you've conceded thrice. One on Luke holding back, the other on Korr not being at 100%, and lastly Alpha being "superior"(via your use of supremacy) to Kam in terms of strength. Moreover, you didn't respond to the section regarding Jaden's Force ability being beyond Solusar's capacity which I will note down as a tentative concession
-Kam's fight with Luke is something Korr could similarly replicate assuming Skywalker is holding back, which per your concession, he is.
-Jaden is similarly able to replicate Solusar's feat of fighting alongside Skywalker and the Ysanna. He's faced worse odds alone!
-The Clones possess a tremendous mastery of the force and continue to grow in the years after.
-Jaden's crosscurrent iteration is weaker/not at 100% per your concession + proof reinforcing this statement.
-Soldier is the prime/best of the clones and is objectively an equal to Riptide! Korr.
-Solusar has none of the advantages Alpha had one of which was physical strength
-Jaden's force ability vastly outstrips whatever Solusar has to offer. (since you've yet to refute my claims)
-Solusar was unable to defend against GAG Troopers.
Again, Kam's advantage with the blade is minimal at best, negligible at worst. Given Jaden's use of the Force in mid-combat Kam's going to have to come up with a response or defense, neither of which he has. Since Korr is an equal to the Prime, he stalemated him. However, whenever the Kyle-clone joined in, he was briefly overwhelmed before he summoned a reserve of power to hold back the strengths of the clones. I don't see Solusar doing that, and since Korr casually dismissed the Kyle-clone, it's a save to say his Telekinetic abilities are going to have Solusar scrambling. Jaden's bladework is good enough to handle the likes of the Prime it's enough to handle the likes of old Solusar.
I'm sorry this was a day late, but Thank you for your patience! and for offering to give me an extension! I appreciate it! I look forward to seeing your response, Chris!
- Chris Cortosis
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
May 11th 2022, 1:46 pm
Yippee Ki Yay - Kneel Before Jedi Master Bruce Willis
Lets see if the dinosaur fossil still has some bite left in it. (It doesn't)Fated Xtasy wrote:If that were the case we wouldn't be having this debate. Let me show you just how the ancients did it back in the golden age.
Responses:
Not sure what the matter of contention here is. Have you read the quote I posted? "The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster."Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s certainly a stretch. But I can’t wait to see you workyourwayoutofthisone educate me on the subject matter
Not really a stretch when he's put at the top.
Very nice. However, this quote neither scales JA Korr above 11-13 ABY Kam, nor does it scale Korr to near Kyle level. But good find ig.Fated Xtasy wrote:Nope, Katarn became Battlemaster between 12ABY and 13ABY
What quantifiable or significant ability of any kind did Kyle teach Jaden? Training under Kyle doesn't mean that Jaden knows everything Kyle does.Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, but the knowledge they impart does, which you didn't refute, so I'm assuming that we're in agreement there.
Look at it this way: Would you argue that Serra Keto, Whie Malreaux, and Drallig's other apprentices are anywhere near his direct predecessors in knowledge? Let alone Drallig himself?
And hey, if you wanna go this way, many of Kyle's students were killed by mere Peace Brigaders and voxyn. Whereas one of Kam's students, Octa Ramis became a high ranking Jedi and a councilor.
- Ded Students:
-NEG to Characters
It's a shame the knowledge Kyle imparted wasn't significant enough to scale his students anywhere near his level in any aspect. It's almost as if being trained by Kyle doesn't mean much in the long run for Jaden. Unless of course, you can provide any quantifiable abilities/powers/etc that Jaden has that will put him on par with Kam or above in terms of knowledge.
What part of "Battlemaster" is unclear? Hell, he laid the initial foundation for the Order's lightsaber skills with the Three rings of defense. You can argue that him being a pioneer doesn't mean he's still amongst the most skilled overall, but that's just cope.Fated Xtasy wrote:I look forward to seeing you prove this
But to further emphasize my point, lets look at stats for a second. Kam is statted to be above Kyp and Corran in sabers circa 25-27 ABY.
- Kam vs Corran and Kyp:
-NJO Sourcebook
And he's rather close to end of NJO Kyle.
- Kyle Dueling Stats:
-The Dark Forces Saga, Part 1 https://web.archive.org/web/20100501063232/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050407a
Every single relevant source suggests/supports the idea of Kam being a top tier within the order in sabers. It'd be ridiculous if he wasn't.
Kam had some training as a boy, and then his dad died. And then he spent years in isolation. He wasn't exactly a conventional Jedi by any means. He had some of the most stunted growth pre JA.Fated Xtasy wrote:Comparatively speaking, Korr ascended the ranks faster than Solusar. Jaden went from an initiate to an apprentice, to a Knight in a span of a year. Meaning that Korr was a Jedi Knight at the age of 13-14 which is an impressive feat for one so young, don’t you think?
By contrast, Solusar was trained as a Jedi Knight by Ranik Solusar and later as a DS adept by Vil Goir nevertheless Solusar was considered a trainee by Luke in spite of all of Kam’s training.
Plus, Goir was only a lightsaber instructor. The fact that Kam was with the DSE for less than a year and already proficient enough to lay the NJO's foundation for lightsaber combat is pretty impressive.
- Noob:
-Who's Who in the New Jedi Order?
-NEG to Characters
And don't forget: Once Kam joined Luke's Academy, he quickly rose to the rank of master and then Battlemaster. All within a couple years.
So whereas Jaden rose to the rank of Knight within a year and master in ~30 years, Kam went from Jedi trainee to Master to Battlemaster all within a year or two of formal training.
Not quite, but I'll get into that later. Either way, my guy's had all those accolades for decades. Yours, for maybe like a couple weeks. So sure, they can apply to Jaden but it won't save him.Fated Xtasy wrote:Moreover, those quotes regarding Jedi Masters are a generalization that could likewise be applied to Korr at the end of his career. You have my thanks!
I don't really see the relevance of this bit. Impressing Kyp Durron doesn't really make him a peer.Fated Xtasy wrote:Read that again, please. “HIS” lack of confidence in HIS ability. Clearly, Skywalker, Katarn, and the rest of the Council thought highly of his skills. This is supported by Kyp Durron— a contemporary of Solusar—who states the following;
--
Jaden impresses Duron:
Ah, yes. He's "one of" the most the most promising students in a generation with other notable and GREAT Jedi such as.....Fated Xtasy wrote:Additionally, Korr is praised by Luke as one of the Academy’s most promising students
Jokes aside, While that accolade is great and all, it doesn't bind Kam or his generation. More importantly, it doesn't exactly do much to my original point. Sure, he passes the threshold for being an amazing Knight. But not for being a master.
Which is basically what I said (mostly the lack of confidence part). And I don't think there would be a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.Fated Xtasy wrote:Clearly, Korr declined out of humility and lack of confidence in his ability
Jaina was dubbed Sword of the Jedi 13 years before she made that embarrassing concession in LOTF. SOTJ Jaina is sub masters and several knights. Not sure why you're wanking Jaina (a massive disappointment) to help Korr. Not a good look to be like Jaina.Fated Xtasy wrote:And Jaina states she believes there are knights and masters more powerful than her yet she becomes the sword of the Jedi, Anakin Solo is doubtful of his abilities as a Jedi yet he’s dubbed the next Luke Skywalker, The Emperor’s Wrath believes they might die facing Baras yet the Dark Council ultimately bows to their unquestionable might after the Wrath kills the old Darth. As I stated above, Jaden refused the rank of Master, but as far as Luke, Katarn, and the Council were concerned Jaden was ready.
But to address the broader point: It's the same as I said above. Korr is a prodigy, sure. But he's no Skywalker or Outlander. I'm not sure why we should assume there's a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.
But lets run with your idea for a second. Korr, a fair bit before 41 ABY, is master tier. That's great. But Solusar still became a master far faster and held the rank for far longer, AND advanced faster once he began formal training, so..... my point still stands.
Luke is saying that in continuation to his previous line about Kam killing him.Fated Xtasy wrote:Solusar also acknowledges that Luke could best him at the very beginning? If that was all that was exchanged between them I’d be happy to concede that the quote indicates that the battle is close, but unfortunately Luke goes on to say that Kam‘s dark side powers are “nothing” to him almost immediately after. So his performance isn’t as insane as you make it out to be. I’ll expand on this thought later.
Kam's dark side powers "mean nothing" to Luke because Luke will "gain powers beyond your imagination" if Kam strikes him down. Luke still acknowledges that Kam could potentially strike him down. Which is the relevant point here.
- Audio Drama Script:
LUKE: Uhh!! If you kill me-unn--I will gain powers beyond your imagination.
KAM: Your Jedi delusions mean nothing--uhn--to me!!
LUKE: And your Dark Side powers are nothing to me, Kam Solusar.
-Dark Empire 2 Audio Drama
Fated Xtasy wrote:If you want to talk about protracted, then look no further than Korr having to fight his way through Taspir III where he fights a tremendous amount of Reborn/Cultists
--
The Reborn are resistant to most Force Powers:
--
They are similarly extensively trained in combat.
--
Cultists may not be as heavily trained as Reborn, yet they’re noted to be advanced duelists and have mastered different aspects of the Force.
Apple, meet orange.
I don't quite understand how these feats are similar. One fought and pressed the greatest Jedi Master. The other......... beat fodders. It's not like the Disciples of Ragnos were particularly powerful fodder, either. Much of their ranks were non force sensitives artificially empowered. Somehow I'm not that impressed here. Your plea here (and in the rest of this debate) is quantity>quality. Which doesn't really work.
Cool. But why is this better than Kam's feat? Alora is just a slightly more powerful version of the fodder you face throughout the game.Fated Xtasy wrote:Korr was destroying Reborn and Cultists by the handful. Even with the advantage of throwing Dark Jedi at Korr, Alora still couldn't beat him on Taspi, and in fact, Korr seemingly destroys her.
Neither of which is a good look for her. We can look at it two ways:Fated Xtasy wrote:The inference here is that Jaden's still able to best her without resorting to any special tactics. While what I've highlighted in red could indicate that he's losing, it's worth noting the following text.
A: Like I said above, she's a slightly better version of the usual fodder you face in the game.
B: She can't even physically catch up to and kill a force user with drained reserves.
Yeah lets go with A. It's a lot less sad. Still doesn't make Alora look good but whatever.Fated Xtasy wrote:The text indicates that Jaden destroys Alora which implies that Korr bested her pretty solidly
It's not all one long confrontation or fight. What do I mean by this? Well you have the option to heal yourself in between fights and such. So it's not like he can't rejuvenate himself before killing more fodder.Fated Xtasy wrote:which is impressive given the series of Reborn, Cultists and Stormtroopers he was facing prior to this confrontation. . So while I’m not all comparing the Reborn/Alora to Luke, I will say that the sheer amount of opponents that Korr had to face simultaneously and consecutively—by himself I might add—showcases that’s he’s beyond the likes of Solusar.
And more to this point: Jaden has an energy shield on for all his showings in Academy. You can argue that the advantage is minimal, but at the end of the day, he still has something that can tank multiple blaster bolts and/or saber strikes for him.
- Energy Shields:
-Jedi Academy Manual
-Jedi Outcast Strategy Guide
-NEG to Weapons and Technology
That means we can't exactly quantify how well he did and whether or not he got tagged. So that casts doubt on, and potentially bogs down all his feats and showings in Academy.
You could argue that he'll have this advantage in our hypothetical fight. However..... no. He won't. Jaden was never depicted using a shield in his duology. Nor FOTJ for that matter. Guess he experienced a drop in IQ between JA and FOTJ if he decided to stop using it.
This is an even better look for Kam. With little experience, he's able to not only press Luke, but oneshot a DSE member. Just imagine how big a beast he becomes with formal training and such. Everything he did in DE2 was while he was basically a noob. Which is what I mentioned in my opener. And it's what makes Kam even better.Fated Xtasy wrote:However, I’d like to finally touch on my previous comment wherein I mention Solusar’s control and inexperience. Here, Luke states that while Kam is skilled he’s objectively inexperienced.
Gantoris had some pretty awesome potential. Even moreso than Kyle mind you. So trainee Kam being sub trainee Gantoris has no bearing on anything. As I pointed out above, Kam at this point had only basic training as a child. He is not a full fledged Knight. (Yet) He is still a noob.Fated Xtasy wrote:“The most progress.” For all his skill the Jedi “Knight” seems to fall short in comparison to a mere trainee, this seems to tie together with Luke’s thoughts on Solusar being inexperienced.
Allow me to provide some context, here's the full quote:Fated Xtasy wrote:Moreover, we have Kam himself admitting he lacks the control necessary to duel someone like Corran
Kam explained that there were things I needed to learn from a living foe and that he, Kam, did not have the control necessary to spar with me. It would be up to Luke to make sure I didn't hit him and he didn't hit me, causing him to concentrate.
-I, Jedi
Not sure how it's a bad look for Kam. If anything, you've managed to provide us with excellent Kam wank. It's almost saying the complete opposite of what you want it to say lol.
Kam is basically telling Corran that he can't properly pull his punches at that point. That's what lack of control means. Sparring with Kam is gonna be deadly for Corran because Kam might kill him due to his (then) lack of Jedi restraint. Remember, Kam's upbringing wasn't normal. Up to that point, he only used his lightsaber to kill or wound.
Teachers more often than not know what they're talking about. In SW anyway. His lack of control isn't detrimental to him in versus. Quite the contrary. And Luke doesn't have a "dismissive attitude". In fact, Luke calls him a gifted duelist in the very same scan you've sent.Fated Xtasy wrote:Even if I grant you that Solusar status as the acting instructor is emblematic of Kam’s overall combative ability, there’s still the matter of his lack of control, inexperience, and more importantly, Luke’s dismissive attitude towards Solusar
Plus, even if we take everything you say as fact: All of it only apply to JA Kam. He becomes a full Knight, Master, and Battlemaster very shortly after. Which is still better progression than Jaden.
Already addressed above, but to further emphasize my point, if fighting Solusar has Luke grunting with effort and getting winded... that's a good look for Kam no matter how you slice it. Even with Luke holding back.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’ve already admitted that Skywalker was holding back, But I really want to highlight how the usual “everyone is stronger than me” Luke Skywalker rhetoric is completely thrown out the window when Luke states that Solusar is “nothing” to him. Meaning that Skywalker is—for once—adamant in his belief that someone cannot defeat him which is a rare moment for Luke. Which is to say, that Solusar wasn’t matching Luke by any stretch of the imagination.
Luke isn't effortlessly styling over Kam whilst holding back like he and Yoda did with the masters. It means that Kam is capable of pressing this Luke. Luke isn't dancing around him. The whole point is that sure, Luke is better than Kam. But Kam is still able to give him a good fight. Which is not something the masters fighting Yoda could do.Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, but the showing is indicative of Luke/Yoda’s mastery and their apprentice’s lack thereof. Ergo, the feat benefits Skywalker/Yoda, but not their opponents.
--
As I said, that’s not an indication of Kam’s abilities. If Luke held back, then it would be LUKE who would have to make sure that HE doesn’t hurt Kam, and that Kam doesn’t hurt him.
Not so. As per the examples with Luke and Yoda.Fated Xtasy wrote:If you’re holding back and not trying to kill someone who is definitely trying to kill you the probability of exhaustion would be high
Already addressed all these points but let me add a bit more. Your implication is that Kam means very little to Luke overall. That just isn't so. Luke in Empire's End believes that losing Solusar could be detrimental to the revival of the Jedi. And it's not like it's unsupported by the lore. Given that Kam laid the basis for the academy's lightsaber combat.Fated Xtasy wrote:Put this together and what we have left is that Kam's inexperienced, uncontrolled, and underdeveloped dark side abilities are nothing to a Luke Skywalker who is holding back in hopes of redeeming Solusar. Simply put, the performance isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seem.
- Empire's End:
The opinions of non force users hardly matters. But if you wanna play this game, sure. I can match that.Fated Xtasy wrote:Jaden however was impressive from the get-go. He was one of the academy's most promising students, he was constantly praised by Luke/Katarn, and was held in high esteem by veterans like Chewbacca and Wedge early in his career.
Solusar was held in such a high regard by Mon Mothma, (whose opinion arguably holds way more weight than Chewie or Wedge's) that she gave him a temporary General's commission. Achieving a rank that high in the NR is nothing to shake one's head at. In fact, he led the mission to sabotage and destroy the Eclipse 2. More impressive than Chewie or Wedge calling him a promising Jedi.
- General Solusar:
-NEG to Characters
Repeating the same wonky talking points doesn't really get you anywhere. Nice try though.Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, that did in fact happen, but Luke later states Kam isn’t as seasoned, Kam admits that he lacks self-control, and he progresses slower than a neophyte.
You're attempting to handwave something that's super clear. We have precedence for characters becoming better/stronger upon rejecting the dark side. Luke is the prime example of that. Kam was tortured until he turned to the dark side. The light within him was smothered. Once Luke lifted that shroud from his mind, he was able to shine brightly. Kam's redemption is written to be very similar to that of Luke's in Dark Empire. Luke gave into the dark side but upon rejecting it, he had more clarity and power. I mean just look at how he goes from losing to Palpatine in a duel to beating him. Which is mirrored by Kam being able to oneshot his former master.Fated Xtasy wrote:So while I can appreciate your attempt to make this appear as though he’s grown in power, I'd go ahead and call this hyperbole as it’s more of an indication that Kam has been redeemed as opposed to having grown exponentially.
-NEG to Characters
None of this changes my point whatsoever. The odds were still impossible for him, Luke, and the Ysanna. Yet they overcame those odds and handily beat their opponents whilst weakened/tired.Fated Xtasy wrote:You know as well as I that the Ysanna were also fighting against the Dark Troopers.
--
Moreover, two of the Force-sensitive were also aiding them and taking on the Dark-Troopers
Apples to oranges once again. "Fierce resistance" does not equal impossible odds. It's a different kind of feat. Also refer back to my point regarding energy shields and the possibility of him healing after combat.Fated Xtasy wrote:That said, regarding impossible odds just look at Trainee Jaden was clearinghouse on Hoth.
--
Alora states Jaden destroyed her Forces.
Same as the above.Fated Xtasy wrote:As an apprentice, Jaden was carving through Bast Castle
--
After all this Jaden enters Vader’s training area and completes his training regiment.
--
Which Jaden “destroys” Vader's training regiment
What you're proposing is:Fated Xtasy wrote:I could legitimately keep going and this on the planet Vjun alone.. Jaden’s just as capable of dealing with 1-10 odds. If not more so.
Jaden Korr > Odds of the Bast Castle and other missions he's faced > > Odds of Ossus Mission < Kam and Luke
You'd have to argue that kid Jaden is > DE 2 Luke if you wanna say that the odds he faced in his missions are greater than what Kam and Luke faced on Ossus. Since those odds were specifically manufactured to weaken Luke. And it succeeded there. So good luck with that.
Plus there's no real way to quantify that Jaden's opponents were > DS amped stormtroopers. Both due to the sheer number and concentration and the fact that they were empowered by Palpatine just like the rest of the DSE. They have not only strength in numbers, but skill far beyond normal stormies, and direct power from one of the most potent force users in existence.
I really hope you're not arguing that Jedi younglings can make Luke grunt with effort or get him winded. Because the lore definitely disagrees with you there.Fated Xtasy wrote:No, he isn’t. Kam’s fight against Luke is something even younglings could replicate if we factor in Kam’s inexperience, lack of control, underdeveloped abilities, and Luke having to hold back. This isn’t something beyond Jaden as of 14ABY, let alone peak Jaden.
Observe how Luke effortlessly styles on these apprentices whilst lecturing them. Isn't get winded or anything:
- Wowsa this art is so bad:
-Crimson Empire 3
Pressing a Luke, even a Luke that's holding back, isn't something just anyone can do.
Refer back to my point on quantifying Jaden's opponents vs DS amped troopers. Different circumstances, different volumes of enemies, etc, etc.Fated Xtasy wrote:Beating Dark Troopers with the assistance of the Theysanna is likewise not beyond Jaden as we’ve seen him literally take on hordes of Stormtroopers, Cultists, Mercs, and Reborn. Kam’s not outdoing anyone here.
Dark Empire 2 takes place during 10 ABY. Fate of the Jedi is 44 ABY. Why wouldn't that Kam be vastly above noob Kam?Fated Xtasy wrote:Please elaborate on his growth.
Now onto the main event!
Alpha:
This'll be fun.Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, the clones of Luke and C’baoth may be, but recall that C’baoth’s clone was created from just C’baoth DNA as opposed to being combined with Jedi/Sith DNA. While in C’baoth’s case the Clone is as powerful as the original, in this case, we’re dealing with the unquantifiable factor of additional DNA making up the Sith-Jedi Clones. Unfortunately for you, the variable in this equation was already been accounted for by yours truly
The first scan you've sent here says they had an "extant" knowledge of their force sensitivity. Meaning they were born knowing full well they had force sensitivity. That is an advantage most force users don't have. They're often discovered by other Jedi or other force users. The clones' fast growth can largely be attributed to that. Plus, recall how Luuke was able to more or less match Luke. And he wasn't even a year old. Fast advancement is not exclusive to the Community and can't exactly be used to put Alpha far above Kam.Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s just straight-up false bro. The fact of the matter is that the clone community is made up of the DNA of several different Force users composed of Lumiya, Mara Jade, Kyle, and Jaden himself. While you can say that the experiment was a failure, the clones are still spliced with the DNA differing from the originals hence their potential is stated to have grown at an alarming rate.
As for the second scan, "high midi-chlorian count" means very little. It's wonky ground to scale the Community over their templates.
My point ultimately stands. The goal of creating breakthrough force users unbound by light and dark failed. The imps created a bunch of crazed dark siders. That part outright failed. That goal did not succeed. So right off the bat, we got failed supersoldiers.Fated Xtasy wrote:That doesn’t sound like a failure to me
The quotes you've sent state that they have a high midichlorian count and that they were able to master basic force powers. That is not solid ground to scale Alpha above Kam.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re wrong though, the quotes above objectively state that the Clones mastered their abilities and have a tremendous amount of potential. Furthermore, the Clones are stated to continue to grow in power as time passes by
--
They mastered their abilities early in their lives, displayed a tremendous amount of power, and still, continued to become stronger. That alone gives us a clear indication that the clones—or in this case Alpha—are stronger than their templates.
You could argue that the Doctor saying "extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count" means that they believe them to have more midichlorians than their templates. But that's suspect insight. Why? Simply because the cloning of force users just isn't a thing that often happens in the galaxy. This whole operation was experimental for them. The clones have "extraordinarily high" midichlorians compared to most beings. Not compared to their templates.
The scientists don't mean to say the Community is > their templates in potential. Just that they have a lot of midichlorians.
In fact, you'll notice that it's never stated that the Community is equal to or superior to their templates in the force. Don't you think Kemp would have thought to mention that? Especially since he outright mentioned Alpha's physical superiority? In all honesty, I'm being generous when I say Alpha > ~ < Kam.
Lets look into the operation's plan again. They wanted to create basically an equal parts light and dark breakthrough force user. That part, I've made clear. But how would they go about doing that? It's simple. We know they combined the templates' DNA with that of Palpatine:Fated Xtasy wrote:If the clones were simply created from the genetic material of their templates I’d be inclined to agree with that, unfortunately, they’re confirmed to have spliced with Jedi and Sith genes.
--
So if the clones are equal to their donors as has been stated, then the addition of Sith/Jedi genes would make them stronger than their counterparts.
"… of us will keep a log. This is mine. Experiment log. Day one. Dr. Gray was finally able to recombine the sample DNA into a usable form. I told him that he'd earned a drink from the whiskey stores. Dr. Green and Red agree on the growth medium. Subjects A through I are born."
--
"Jedi and Sith," said Dr. Black.
--
"… Palpatine," Dr. Black said.
--
"I suspect they recombined the DNA of Jedi with the DNA of Sith."
-Crosscurrent
Note the first line. They're not just taking Jedi DNA as is and adding Palpatine power to it. They're recombining samples into a usable form for their attempt at making a light and dark breakthrough force user. Meaning what? They're taking a percentage of each side. So it's X% Jedi DNA and Y% Palpatine DNA. For the clones to have more potential as you suggest, they'd have to use like 100% Jedi DNA and add Palpatine power to that.
As such, we can't just assume the clones' potential is far above their templates. My generous estimate would put the community slightly above, below, or equal in potential. And like I said, there is nothing stating that the Community is far better than their templates in potential.
There is a problem with the chain you propose.Fated Xtasy wrote:Not in this multiverse, bud. If I have to adhere to a chain it would be more like this:
Peak ! Jaden = Soldier > The Entire Clones. Soldier is consistently stated to be the greatest of the clones by three different sources.
The first being the Omniscient Narrator and it's further reinforced by the statement of "They knew it, and he knew it."
--
Seer, the Community Leader acknowledges his superiority over them.
Soldier's supremacy over his fellow clones lies not in power levels or even dueling skill. He's the best of them because he isn't suffering from the same clone madness and physical illness that they are. It's noted in the first quote you've sent with "and he showed no signs of the illness that afflicted the rest." And in the second quote, Seer outright says his perfection is "In body and mind."
Prime is just their codename for him. It means nothing in and of itself. You could argue that Soldier's resistance to Nyss' void grants him supremacy over his fellow clones, but that was never attributed to pure, raw force power. Could very well be hax in play.Fated Xtasy wrote:and lastly, the One Sith and their agents refer to Soldier as the Prime.
Especially considering that Hunter, the Mara clone was easily depowered by Nyss' void:
- Depowered Hunter:
Darkness.
She felt entirely separated from the Force, a feeling she had never before experienced, a striking solitude that made her mouth go dry. She was breathing too heavily, betraying her position. She slid along the wall, as quiet as a shadow, her hand sweating around the hilt of her lightsaber, dead metal in her fist.
-Riptide
And if we wanna assume that Hunter's potential is around Mara's... And that Jaden is ~ Soldier in power/potential..... Well, Mara>Jaden is a thing. Mara could have instantly become the best student in the Academy whenever she rejoined:
- Best Student:
-Dark Side Sourcebook
And Luke and Mara were considered to be the best warriors in the NR:
- Best Warriors:
"When Aristocra Chaf'orm'bintrano asked Admiral Parck who of the New Republic would be the best warriors to have at hand against possible trouble, he recommended you and Master Skywalker."
-Survivor's Quest
There is far more I can provide as proof of Mara's supremacy to Jaden in power and potential but you get the idea. Soldier is not necessitated to scale above the rest of the community in power. His supremacy to them merely lies in the fact that he isn't a deranged psycho that's dying of clone related illness.
Thanks! I'll go with Jaden > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar.Fated Xtasy wrote:Thus we can safely establish that Korr is similarly as Powerful as Soldier (if not more so) and is consequently >The Clones, including Alpha. Since the clones are stated to be extremely powerful, we could say Alpha>Solusar or Clones>Genetic Templates just for funsies. But let's say I—hypothetically—concede this point and agree that Solusar and his clone are equals. The Jaden clone is still the best of the clones, Jaden still stalemates Soldier, and the chain remains mostly the same. Jaden=Soldier>Alpha>~Kam
Take your pick!
Since that is the correct stance. (If not a bit overgenerous on my part.)
As I've explained in my opener, his "benighted" sensitivity was only within the force vision that he had. He was able to draw on the force just fine throughout the rest of the book. I'll be generous and entertain the notion that his PTSD might have made him fight not as well as he usually could. But guess what? There is zero evidence to suggest that he's inferior by a noteworthy or significant degree.Fated Xtasy wrote:Due to a benighted force sensitivity, which you yourself have stated is the most important aspect of a duelist. Therefore if his connection is damaged, then his performance would also take a hit. Not to mention the vast difference in Jaden's performances in Riptide V Crosscurrent.
To put it another way: If you're visually impaired or unable to hear or have any number of disabilities within a dream, you obviously won't suffer those same effects once you wake up.
Me saying Jaden > PTSD Jaden is yet another generous estimate.
Generic TK feats within Academy's exaggerated video game medium and basic force pushes within his books. They're hardly damning or quantifiable against Kam's throwing boulders with enough force to bring down TIEs. Why compare apples to oranges when I can just prove Kam's supremacy to Korr with my superior chain?Fated Xtasy wrote:How exactly? You’ve failed to respond to my comments stating that Korr’s Telekinetic abilities vastly outstrip Solusar’s own.
Who cares? Literally anyone and everyone can use TK when advantageous moments arise in duels. In fact, here's Kam being stated to wield force powers and his lightsaber in an ancient dance of death.Fated Xtasy wrote:Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response.
- Dance of Death:
Casually dismissing? How do you plot that course? The very passage you sent says he took Runner by surprise:Fated Xtasy wrote:It doesn’t matter if we can’t quantify it, the point is it was enough to hamper his connection and his overall performance. Again, we have evidence within the novel themselves in terms of his performance. He goes from being overwhelmed by Alpha, to casually dismissing Runner(Kyle Clone)
- Surprise:
The clone's wild, bloodshot eyes widened when he saw Jaden. Jaden took advantage of the clone's surprise. He drew on the Force, extended a hand, and struck the clone with a blast of concussive energy so strong it blew the clone back down the stairs and drove him into the floor. The clone lay there, dazed.
-Riptide
Yes, he's more serene, he feels as if he has more purpose. He's gotten over the PTSD and lack of purpose. That's cool. But guess what? Never once in Crosscurrent is he stated to not be able to draw on the Force. The only example of that is the vision and I've already addressed that above. As Luke said in the scan you've sent, Jaden is just calmer.Fated Xtasy wrote:As if that wasn't enough we also have the following discussion between Luke and Jaden:
Moreover, even Jaden state he feels different.
He was able to use the force just fine. In fact, he does in the Alpha fight:Fated Xtasy wrote:Clearly, his connection was distorted enough for Luke to sense a great change in Jaden and likewise, Jaden was able to feel it himself. So to reiterate, Jaden, as you've already stated was not at 100% in Crosscurrent and therefore not fighting his best against Alpha.
- Calm of the Force:
Jaden prepared himself, sank into the calm of the Force.
-Crosscurrent
When I said he wasn't at a 100%, it was purely related to mindset. Not ability to use the force. He can draw on power just fine. But he's just not as zen. So sure, he's not at 100. He's at 90. Not a meaningful step down. Think about it like a less intense version of Mustafar Vader.
See above.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re going on record and saying that the Force is more important in a duel per Jaden’s comments, but then you want to disregard the reality that is Jaden’s disrupted connection?
To touch up on the Luke part.... you do know Jedi can sense emotions, right? Luke is just saying Jaden is more zen. Same thing for Relin's comments. They're just commenting on his emotional state.Fated Xtasy wrote:The reality is we have evidence from both Jaden and Luke himself stating that as of Riptide there's a great change in Korr, great enough to be noticed by the Grandmaster. Even Relin in Crosscurrent notes that just as rage is pouring off of him so is doubt pouring off of Jaden.
Doubt didn't stop him from sinking into the calm of the Force. Crosscurrent Jaden is nowhere near as disadvantaged as you make him out to be.Fated Xtasy wrote:We all know that doubt is the enemy of the Jedi as we see in ESB when Luke doubt's he could do what Yoda wants him to do.
I find it funny that you use the Adi example of all things. Considering a large part of why Savage beat her was due to his own force power supremacy. Hell, it only strengthens my point if anything. So thanks. There is actually a far better example you could have used to argue the point of strength being an important factor but I'll let you figure it out.Fated Xtasy wrote:Which is fine and dandy but the fact remains. Physical ability can be a turning point in combat. For Example
Whatever the case, more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.
Also, one of the scans you've used for this point runs counter to your argument:
- ROTS Novel:
not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing
-ROTS novel
Force reserves are painted as the more important of the two factors.
Is the importance of the Jaden quote I sent lost on you? This man got brutalized and still ultimately thinks "Very little about this is physical." He himself doesn't believe Alpha's physical strength was a key point in that fight.Fated Xtasy wrote:So, in various works, we see the importance of strength, especially to those who have a tremendous amount of physical ability like Savage, Anakin, Vader, and so on. While you may consider it negligible the fact is Alpha has that physical strength going for him and is going to use it in a way that benefits him as a duelist. Now combine that lean physicality with the Force and the end result is a battering-ram-like combatant.
I'll repeat myself: more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.
See above.Fated Xtasy wrote:While you may be entitled to consider physical strength negligible in this situation, the fact is an advantage is still an advantage!
Are you seriously trying to use Kam being ambushed and cheapshotted by snipers as anti wank?Fated Xtasy wrote:Didn’t help old Solusar against GAG did it?
The GAG is comprised of the best soldiers in the galaxy.
"I run a meritocracy, and the lieutenant shows merit. Put this incident on her record."
-LOTF Fury
Even with all their skills, they decided to draw Kam out and cheapshot him instead of facing him head on. The best of the best in the galaxy knew they stood no chance in conventional combat.
Add to that the fact that Solusar actually survived three sniper shots. Doesn't matter how injured he was. Most characters would not survive that. So nice try, but... this is hardly anti wank. Or quantifiable for that matter.
Done. With extreme finesse.Fated Xtasy wrote:The gap neither exists nor has it grown. But please feel free to educate me.
Oh don't you worry. I'll cover Kam's vast superiority in knowledge real soon. Stay tuned.Fated Xtasy wrote:and seeing how he didn’t have a response for Sedriss’ Force Choke I doubt he'll have an answer for Jaden's Force Abilities.
Anyway, I could keep responding but the rest of your post is just you repeating your wonky points. And I really don't feel the need to repeat myself in turn. So lets move onto something fun, shall we?
I'll be introducing a couple extra arguments chains now that I'm done responding. Try to keep up.
Solusar's Supremacy in Knowledge:
This one's simple. Solusar was not only co administrator of the Yavin Academy, but a founder of the Ossus Academy. As a teacher, he'd have to be a cut above the rest in knowledge.
But here's confirmation that Kam has studied/learned more. It's not exactly vague either. He's interfaced with the Great Holocron. A holocron that has so much knowledge, that not even the longest lived Jedi can completely study it.
- Great Holocron:
-Kam Solusar's Addendum (Jedi vs Sith)
While Jaden may have access to the teachings in Jedi vs Sith, Kam has the firsthand experience/knowledge that Korr simply lacks. Safe to say that they didn't scribe everything they got from the Great Holocron. Kam is Indiana Jones. Korr is one of his college students basically.
Now all that's just vague indicators. That's no fun. So lets cover something that we can outright quantify, shall we?
Fallanassi
During the early years of the Vong war, Luke taught Kam and Tionne a Fallanassi technique of projecting illusions. During Edge of Victory, Kam and Tionne kept the academy safe from casual inspection. While there were other Jedi on the moon, as per various sources, Kam and Tionne were the ones holding it:
- Illusion:
--
-NJO Sourcebook
-Jedi vs Sith
Only under extremely close scrutiny was the illusion eventually seen through. But the fact remains. Kam and Tionne were able to project a moon tier illusion that kept the academy safe from casual inspection. And lets be honest here... Kam was doing the heavy lifting.
Now that's a moon tier feat. However you slice it, it's impressive. And unfortunately for Jaden, it's something Kam will have access to within the fight and should he decide to use it, it'll be a hard counter for Jaden.
To further hammer home this point, Kam as of 25-27 ABY is much better at telepathy than Jaden's master, Kyle at 29 ABY as per stats.
- TP Stats:
--
-NJO Sourcebook
-The Dark Forces Saga, Part 1 https://web.archive.org/web/20100501063232/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050407a
There's more I can go into regarding Fallanassi techniques but that's all for now.
So, Jaden will have to deal with not only Solusar's extremely potent dueling and force skills, but he'll also have to deal with mindfuckery and illusions, should Kam decide to use them.
Master Supremacy
For my final additional point in this post, lets hammer home the supremacy Kam's status as a master grants him, shall we?
First off, no matter what Korr's position in Riptide was, it's clear that he returned to being a Jedi Knight by the time of Fate of the Jedi:
- Knight:
Directly opposite the turbolift stood the ornate double doors to the Council Chamber. Two apprentices were always assigned to guard the entrance, but today they were being overseen by a tall, brown-haired Jedi Knight with a slender face and dark, piercing eyes. The mere presence of any Jedi Knight indicated the Masters didn't want to be disturbed; that the Jedi Knight was Jaden Korr told Han that someone-no doubt Kenth Hamner-didn't want to be disturbed by the Solos in particular.
--
"Yeah, but you're also a Jedi Knight," Han said,
-Abyss
So he's no longer a master. And sure, you could argue that he is still at that level. However.... The lore would disagree with you:
- Shut yo Mouth:
When Leia reached the edge of the seating alcove, she stopped and folded her hands in front of her, waiting in silence for someone in the circle to acknowledge her. Han and Korr did the same thing. Interrupting a Jedi Master in the middle of an argument with another Jedi Master was a good way to end up with a Force-clamped mouth. It might look like the Council hadn't noticed them, but Han had been to enough of these things to know that every Master in the room had realized the Solos were coming even before Leia had brushed past the apprentices.
-Abyss
Clearly, it's Denning's intent to put masters far above Knights. To the point where they can literally shut up Knights and everyone below them casually with the Force. And Korr full well knows this. Kam happens to be a very prestigious master. And would be written as being able to easily do the same to Korr.
This isn't even crucial to my point. Just more insult to injury for Jaden.
Conclusions/Recap:
-Your argument for Kam's advantage being negligible at best doesn't work. Jaden training under Kam isn't anywhere near quantifiable proof.
-Your attempts to lowball noob Kam either just don't work or go against your bottom line.
-No matter how you slice it, Kam's fight against Luke in DE2 is impressive for a noob.
-All the arguments you made for Jaden in JA hinge on quantity over quality, whereas Kam's best performances are all quality.
-Your argument for the Community's potential being above the templates relies on generic statements of a "high midichlorian count" and "fast advancement through basic stages". Neither of which is nearly enough to put them above their templates. Nor is the Jedi + Sith DNA. Even if by some miracle, they're above the OGs, it isn't by a margin large enough to be detrimental to my case.
-Your wank for Soldier simply doesn't work.
-Jaden is sub Alpha.
-Kam has supremacy in overall knowledge and has abilities that will be hard for Jaden to counter.
That concludes my post. Best of luck in responding. Don't you disappoint me.
- Fated Xtasy
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
July 2nd 2022, 1:39 pm
Howdy! So my response is going to be split into two posts. Sorry! Apparently, that was the delay 
Passing Solusar off as being a challenge for Luke when you’ve already conceded Kam is nowhere near him is laughable.
Anyways, 11BBY-13BBY wherein Solusar did what exactly? Beyond being made a master along with Jedi with no relative skill in the Force like his wife? Bar’s rather low.
Given that Bene and Whie are not his exclusive apprentices, Certainly not, but Keto? Anakin even knew Keto was a worthy foe as Drallig’s “greatest pupil” and Drallig’s “favorite student.” therefore a threat. Funny, both Serra/Jaden are apprenticed to battlemasters and are praised high enough to be a threat. Thanks for the little comparison, ig.
The use of deception is what allowed the brigade to get the drop on the Jedi.
Thirdly, that measuring stick just reinforces the idea that Jaden Korr was Kyle’s best student, so.
That’s not the argument. What I am arguing is that Katarn is more knowledgeable than Solusar by virtue of greater experience, better feats, and longer tenure as Battlemaster as such Korr would benefit from having a much more experienced master.
I’ll address this in further detail below.
Katarn states:
Kemp, in a fan Q&A states the following:
So we have the author stating that Korr was essentially building his life around Katarn’s teaching, be they philosophical or otherwise. But the point is Korr still leaned heavily on Kyle’s teachings.
Darth Wryylock reinforces this train of thought:
So what we have at this moment is that Jaden is “dangerous” because he was Kyle’s apprentice, and was famous enough that the entire One Sith had heard of him and created a clone of him(the Iteration)
Though I’ve already provided this quote, let’s revisit it since you brought up the quote regarding Katarn’s students dying.
Your overconfidence will be your downfall!Chris Cortosis wrote:Lets see if the dinosaur fossil still has some bite left in it. (It doesn't)
The matter of contention is you’re arguing Kam was the second most skilled swordsman barring Luke while simultaneously dismissing that Kam’s time as battlemaster was relatively short compared to Katarn who held that position for decades. Meaning that Kam lacks the same skill, knowledge, and experience as someone who is subjectively sitting right below Skywalker as a combatant.Chris wrote:Not sure what the matter of contention here is. Have you read the quote I posted? "The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster."
Passing Solusar off as being a challenge for Luke when you’ve already conceded Kam is nowhere near him is laughable.
This is such a strawman argument, No one said anything about Korr being = Katarn.Chris wrote:Very nice. However, this quote neither scales JA Korr above 11-13 ABY Kam, nor does it scale Korr to near Kyle level. But good find ig.
Anyways, 11BBY-13BBY wherein Solusar did what exactly? Beyond being made a master along with Jedi with no relative skill in the Force like his wife? Bar’s rather low.
Aside from literally telling his apprentice that he’s going to be learning different styles of combat and mixing them up? Katarn “honed” Jaden’s skills, enough to where Jaden is the best student Katarn’s ever trained out of “countless” apprentices. I’ll elaborate later.Chris wrote:What quantifiable or significant ability of any kind did Kyle teach Jaden? Training under Kyle doesn't mean that Jaden knows everything Kyle does.
I’ll humor you on this one.Chris wrote:Look at it this way: Would you argue that Serra Keto, Whie Malreaux, and Drallig's other apprentices are anywhere near his direct predecessors in knowledge? Let alone Drallig himself?
Given that Bene and Whie are not his exclusive apprentices, Certainly not, but Keto? Anakin even knew Keto was a worthy foe as Drallig’s “greatest pupil” and Drallig’s “favorite student.” therefore a threat. Funny, both Serra/Jaden are apprenticed to battlemasters and are praised high enough to be a threat. Thanks for the little comparison, ig.
First off, Voxyn are literally tinkered to specifically kill and hunt Jedi.Chris wrote:And hey, if you wanna go this way, many of Kyle's students were killed by mere Peace Brigaders and voxyn.
.New Essential Chronology wrote:Realizing that many Jedi still remained at large, they had fashioned a horde of six-legged monsters called voxyn. Flawless Jedi-killers, the voxyn contained generic material taken from Myrkr’s Force-hunting vornskrs, and used this sensitivity to compensate for their masters’ Force blindness
The use of deception is what allowed the brigade to get the drop on the Jedi.
The New Jedi Order: Ylesia, wrote:"When the Vong struck at us, their way had been prepared for them. They had agents already in place, both disguised Yuuzhan Vong and traitors like Viqi Shesh. And after our first encounters with the Yuuzhan Vong, the enemy found there were tens of thousands of people who were willing to collaborate with them in attacking and enslaving their fellow galactic citizens."
Thirdly, that measuring stick just reinforces the idea that Jaden Korr was Kyle’s best student, so.
That does happen. You should make an RT tbh.Chris wrote:Whereas one of Kam's students, Octa Ramis became a high ranking Jedi and a councilor.
Chris wrote:It's a shame the knowledge Kyle imparted wasn't significant enough to scale his students anywhere near his level in any aspect.
That’s not the argument. What I am arguing is that Katarn is more knowledgeable than Solusar by virtue of greater experience, better feats, and longer tenure as Battlemaster as such Korr would benefit from having a much more experienced master.
I’ll address this in further detail below.
So you say, but really your argument is heavily contradicted. Consider the following:Chris wrote:It's almost as if being trained by Kyle doesn't mean much in the long run for Jaden.
Katarn states:
So the implication here is that Korr is obviously above Penin, however, he is similarly above MOTS/Emperor’s Hand Mara Jade. However, what’s important here is that Katarn is essentially beaming at how well Korr has progressed. Let’s move on.Jedi Academy: Katarn wrote:"You're the best student I've ever trained and a terrific Jedi."
Kemp, in a fan Q&A states the following:
“Leaning heavily on Katarn’s teachings( as he remembered them ).”Crosscurent Q&A: JediCouncilForums wrote:I conceptualized Jaden as leaning heavily on Katarn's teachings (as he remembered them) while he went through his crisis of faith
So we have the author stating that Korr was essentially building his life around Katarn’s teaching, be they philosophical or otherwise. But the point is Korr still leaned heavily on Kyle’s teachings.
Darth Wryylock reinforces this train of thought:
Crosscurent wrote:Received. Name the Jedi you have encountered."
"Jaden Korr."
"We know of him. He was apprenticed to Katarn and is, therefore, dangerous."
So what we have at this moment is that Jaden is “dangerous” because he was Kyle’s apprentice, and was famous enough that the entire One Sith had heard of him and created a clone of him(the Iteration)
Though I’ve already provided this quote, let’s revisit it since you brought up the quote regarding Katarn’s students dying.
As is evident by the info provided, Katarn tempered Korr’s skill to such an extent that Korr is considered dangerous just for being apprenticed to Katarn, While Kyle saw many of his students die during the Vong war, the exception to the rule is Jaden Korr. the implication being that Korr was/is his greatest student and thus which seemingly “means” something to a number of people “in the long run.”Dark Forces Saga wrote:honing the skills of countless Jedi students, like Jaden Korr...
With respect to esoteric abilities, Jaden’s been able to purify an unstable crystal of its dark-side energies using an ability only really used by another being, Kreia, who purified Meetra’s saber crystal in order for it to become better attuned to her. Which speaks volumes of mastery on a technical level.Chris wrote:Unless of course, you can provide any quantifiable abilities/powers/etc that Jaden has that will put him on par with Kam or above in terms of knowledge.
- Kreia Attuning Crystals:
- Dark Side Access :
- The Essential Readers Companion. wrote:“Jaden is troubled by the ease with which he can summon the dark side. ”
While the nature of the Dark Side is typically easy, it’s impressive to note that Jaden was able to use abilities such as Force Lightning that he noted could have easily killed Alpha.- Force Lightning Power:
- Crosscurrent wrote:The realization summoned something from deep within the dark crevices of his mind where he kept secrets even from himself. Force lightning exploded from his hand, squeezed out by the exigency of his circumstances. The blue lines spiraled around the clone's hand and lightsaber.
The clone gasped with surprise, loosened his grip, disengaged. Jaden gulped a lungful of air while the darkness within him swelled and the outburst of Force lightning intensified. Jaden knew that fear had unlocked the darkest part of himself, knew, too, that he could free that part, surrender to it, and save his body while destroying himself.
But he thought of Kyle, of his training, of Relin, and denied the impulse. The Force lightning died.
He was able to draw on the Dark Rage and utilize it in conjunction with Force speed to take out Ragnos! Tavion in two strikes.- Ragnos! defeated:
There are several basic abilities, the most important of which are TK, that Jaden has mastered, but I’ll address those later. In short, Jaden’s easy access to the Dark Side and other advanced abilities are far more combat applicable in this scenario, barring, of course, the refocusing/cleansing of a Force crystal.
Which were later disregarded in favor of Katarn’s reintegration of what are arguably the classical styles of combat considering a text in the guides describes the Medium style as the “classic saber combat style”(per Jedi Outcast: Perfect guide) and “The classic lightsaber-combat style, as used by Luke Skywalker and the young Obi-Wan Kenobi.” (per Prima’s Jedi Academy Strategy guide.) While Solusar laid the foundation of a fighting style, clearly his knowledge of combat was overshadowed by Katarn.Chris wrote:What part of "Battlemaster" is unclear? Hell, he laid the initial foundation for the Order's lightsaber skills with the Three rings of defense.
Given that Jaden trained under the NJO when these classical styles were in place, it stands to reason that he’s a far more classically trained duelist than Solusar, or at the very least he’s on par with Kam when it comes to technical skill.
If we analyze raw combative skill, based solely on his passing of Vader’s training regiment, Jaden is arguably operating on a level high enough to deal with Vader’s training droids, which shouldn’t be overlooked as earlier in the game when Jaden first joined the Order we have a quote stating the following.
Given the importance Kyle stresses on how easily a training droid set to Luke’s level could easily have killed Korr, it stands to reason that Jaden’s skill set increased to the point of being able to withstand the same grueling training session as Vader.Katarn: Jedi Academy wrote:“If that droid was set to Luke’s training regiment, it would have killed Jaden, it would have killed Jaden, what were you thinking?”
Sure he’s skilled, in the same way Kas’im and Sora Bulq were.Chris wrote:You can argue that him being a pioneer doesn't mean he's still amongst the most skilled overall, but that's just cope.
Stats are cringe, but to your point. While I’m sure that In that general area Kam may be a bit above the likes of Horn/Durron in sabers, based on their challenge rating of F they’re overall on the same level both in and out of combat. This brings me to a counterpoint.Chris wrote:But to further emphasize my point, lets look at stats for a second. Kam is statted to be above Kyp and Corran in sabers circa 25-27 ABY.- Equals :
[img[https://i.imgur.com/4bIRfE5.jpg[/img]
That said, since this is referring to Mara as the Hand, it stands to reason that we could apply the comments made by Katarn that state that Jaden is > Mara and therefore above an F challenge rating. Even if we disregard that, there are still statements prior to her becoming “Luke’s greatest student.” as well as others that indicate that she’s the deadliest agent in the Empire, she’s a peer of Luke, and that she’s highly powerful. And Jaden, per their shared master, is the better of the two.- Mara Jade:
Meanwhile, Ragnos shares his challenge rating with the likes of Sidious - both Darth Sidious, and Emperor incarnation - which indicates that Ragnos is on a similar tier of difficulty as Darth Sidious overall.- Ragnos:
- Darth Sidious:
And they’re both below RagnosChris wrote:And he's rather close to end of NJO Kyle
Yeah, he’s top tier in the same way Sora Bulq is. Meaning he’s skilled, to be sure. But that technical skill isn’t saving him from Jedi like Jaden just like it didn’t save Bulq from Vos or Kas’Im from Bane.Chris wrote:Every single relevant source suggests/supports the idea of Kam being a top tier within the order in sabers. It'd be ridiculous if he wasn't.
Kam had some training as a boy, and then his dad died. And then he spent years in isolation. He wasn't exactly a conventional Jedi by any means. He had some of the most stunted growth pre-JA.
That’s in direct contention with the source material which states that Solusar was trained to the level of a Jedi knight prior to meeting Luke, both the Comic and audio drama state that Solusar was/is a Jedi Knight.
Kam Solusar isn’t giving Luke anything remotely resembling a good fight.
Given your admittance that Solusar is “stunted” Pre JA then the notion that Solusar is anywhere near DE! Luke is utterly ridiculous given not only your concessions but also the evidence provided.
I can agree that laying the foundation is impressive for Solusar, however, that really doesn’t mean anything when Jaden’s taken on Ragnos! Tavion. We know Axmis wielded “great power” ; it stands to reason that Jaden was taking on the ancient Sith that during TOR, exemplified the traits of the Sith Juggernaut.Chris wrote:Plus, Goir was only a lightsaber instructor. The fact that Kam was with the DSE for less than a year and already proficient enough to lay the NJO's foundation for lightsaber combat is pretty impressive.SWTOR: Class wrote:
A stalwart defender of the Sith Empire, the Juggernaut embodies the teachings of Marka Ragnos, charging into enemies with heavy armor and pure rage.
"You will choose between two disciplines. One follows the path of Marka Ragnos, who focused the dark side to become nearly unwoundable in battle."
To reiterate, Ragnos was “unkillable” and had the capacity to utilize rage to bolster himself. Now, as far as skill goes, let's go ahead and take a gander at this nugget.KOTOR II: Kreia wrote:If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."
These repetitive statements showcase that Ragnos was first and foremost a warrior of tremendous skill. Jaden fought this Sith and won. Only in this case, Jaden was a literal child playing with a lightsaber.
To your first point, you’re right, Jaden took longer to reach the same title as Solusar, but his career had been long, and impressive enough for Kyp Durron, a peer and objective superior Jedi to Solusar. Regarding your second point, yes and then he immediately lost that title to Katarn who had just reconnected with the Force and with a crash course of Jedi training.Chris wrote:So whereas Jaden rose to the rank of Knight within a year and master in ~30 years, Kam went from Jedi trainee to Master to Battlemaster all within a year or two of formal training
We’ll see!Chris wrote:Not quite, but I'll get into that later. Either way, my guy's had all those accolades for decades. Yours, for maybe like a couple weeks. So sure, they can apply to Jaden but it won't save him
You’re backpedaling, you said the following:Chris wrote:I don't really see the relevance of this bit.
It was my understanding that you were utilizing this as a way to insinuate that Korr lack of confidence is an admission of inferiority, I refuted that by pointing out that Jaden was *offered* the role by the Council/Luke/Katarn ergo Jaden was already, to borrow a term from LOTJ, Master level in the eyes of the Council.Chris wrote:Korr on the other hand refused the rank due to his lack of confidence in ability:
Kyp has the highest force potential barring the Solo/Skywalkers, is significantly superior to Solusar, is a peer to Katarn, and led the strike force that led Jaden to his crisis of faith. Kyp’s opinion is important in that he was Korr’s leader and clearly respected Korr’s skills to a degreeChris wrote:Impressing Kyp Durron doesn't really make him a peer.
Hey, don’t mock Rosh! He’s “so good”, remember?Chris wrote:Ah, yes. He's "one of" the most the most promising students in a generation with other notable and GREAT Jedi such as.....
Perhaps, but it’s important to note that there were still more students than there were masters in Jaden’s generation, with Luke saying:Chris wrote:Jokes aside, While that accolade is great and all, it doesn't bind Kam or his generation.
So while the accolade doesn’t pertain to Solusar’s generation the inference here is that Korr outshone, and outclassed his peers with arguably outnumbered the masters 2-1.Jedi Academy: Luke wrote:“Since there are still so few of us, we will be assigning multiple students to one Master.”
If we focus strictly on stats Jaden was facing an entity as challenging as ROTJ/ROTS Palpatine which really puts the whole “threshold” comment on pause. If you subscribe to this Masters>Knights mentality it’s just going to end up terribly uncomfortable for you.Chris wrote:More importantly, it doesn't exactly do much to my original point. Sure, he passes the threshold for being an amazing Knight. But not for being a master.
Just look at SW as a whole, The Barsen’thor was subduing Jedi Masters as a Padawan/Jedi Knight. Xanatos, a Being that never went past the title of Padawan, was already a threat to Qui-Gon Jinn. Aurra Sing, again, was another fallen Padawan challenging Jedi Masters left and right. Bariss Offee knocked out a Jedi Killer like Ventress and dueled against Anakin. Hell, even TPM Obi-Wan was fighting evenly with the Council one-on-one.
Sticking strictly to examples where Jedi of lower rank take on Jedi of higher rank it genuinely means nothing in the area of combat, while it might mean the Jedi is wiser, more seasoned, and more respected, combat-wise it doesn’t really mean anything.
I disagree, self-doubt and humility have led to things like Luke stating he can’t beat Brakiss and others. Given Jaden’s performance against an entity like Ragnos and later Mother, he’s not the scrub you’re claiming he is.Chris wrote:Which is basically what I said (mostly the lack of confidence part). And I don't think there would be a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.
The objective of the argument is not to draw a direct comparison between Jaina and Jaden. That's a Red Herring on your part, what the true argument is that other powerful Jedi/Sith have similarly expressed doubt in their abilities, likewise overcame them, and defeated their enemies despite their doubts/rank. Nitpicking and pivoting aren’t your strong suits.Chris wrote:Jaina was dubbed Sword of the Jedi 13 years before she made that embarrassing concession in LOTF. SOTJ Jaina is sub masters and several knights. Not sure why you're wanking Jaina (a massive disappointment) to help Korr. Not a good look to be like Jaina.
There’s a massive disparity between where you hold him and where he ultimately falls. You seem to be building your arguments around statements that infer that Korr is doubtful of his abilities and you’re utilizing them to say that his doubt + refusal of the Rank of master indicates that Korr is below Solusar. This simply isn’t true based on Korr’s performance against Ragnos! Tavion, the Clones, and Mother.Chris wrote:But to address the broader point: It's the same as I said above. Korr is a prodigy, sure. But he's no Skywalker or Outlander. I'm not sure why we should assume there's a massive disparity between where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls.
My idea is shared with the IU sources though, it’s not like pulling these things out of thin air to make myself feel better. Jaden, as he was offered the rank of master by the Council, is in their eyes already Master Level.Chris wrote:But lets run with your idea for a second. Korr, a fair bit before 41 ABY, is master tier.
Being a Master makes no real difference, and you know that. But to your point, Kam didn’t hold the Battlemaster title for long tho, did he? And again none of that formal training helped the Jedi against GAG. But we’ll get to that soon!Chris wrote:That's great. But Solusar still became a master far faster and held the rank for far longer, AND advanced faster once he began formal training, so..... my point still stands.
Not sure if you’re omitting things to serve your agenda or just making an errorChris wrote:Luke is saying that in continuation to his previous line about Kam killing him.
That’s not what I was referring to.Chris wrote:Kam's dark side powers "mean nothing" to Luke because Luke will "gain powers beyond your imagination" if Kam strikes him down. Luke still acknowledges that Kam could potentially strike him down. Which is the relevant point here.- Kam V Luke, in it's entirety.:
- Dark Empire Audiobook Script wrote:LUKE AND KAM: (grunting with effort)
KAM: DIE, SKYWALKER!!!
LUKE: You cannot defeat me, Dark Jedi.
KAM: If I do not (grunts), others will follow (slash)!! I—uhh—am one of many! The Emperor's Dark Side warriors will find you!
LUKE: Uhh!! If you kill me-unn—I will gain powers beyond your imagination.
KAM: Your Jedi delusions mean nothing—uhn—to me!!
LUKE: And your Dark Side powers are nothing to me, Kam Solusar.
KAM: (lashes at Luke, who blocks) How do you know my name?
LUKE: Through the Force. The Force brought me here, to Nespis VIII. It also brought me your name, and the knowledge that you have NOT completely gone over to the Dark Side!
KAM: NO!!! (Keeps striking at Luke, who blocks every move.) I am a Dark Jedi. I serve the Emperor!!
LUKE: The Emperor is dead. The Dark Side is defeated. I feel the good in you!!```
KAM: NO! (Attacks again—but not as hard as before.)
LUKE: I sense your old life. Before the Dark Side ensnared you. (Sound: Force hum begins.) When the Force flowed through you.
KAM: NO!! NNNOOO!!! ([color=#663300]Attacks, but his heart's not in it anymore. With visible effort, he turns off his lightsaber[/color].) My life is forfeit, Jedi. Kill me.
LUKE: I do not take life unless I must. Yours I give back to you. (turns off his lightsaber.)
KAM: Why? When I lured you here....I would have made this derelict space station your grave. The tomb of the last Jedi Master.
LUKE: Instead, I will make it the place of your rebirth. You were a Dark Jedi once. But only because you fell under the Emperor's spell. Now that spell is broken!!
Sound: The Force rises, to a wail. Kam cries out.
LUKE: Kam Solusar—I give you back your life!! I give you your freedom! I give you the power that is already yours—the power of the Jedi!!
Sound: The Force fades.
KAM: (with new strength in his voice) Skywalker.....I'm free.
So Luke is adamant in his belief that Solusar cannot defeat him in the beginning and then states that “if” Kam doesn’t kill him he’ll become more powerful, Solusar later states that Luke’s delusions mean nothing and Luke reaffirms his first statement by remarking that Kam’s powers “mean nothing” to him.
Truly shoddy debatemanship is this what Suspect Insight has come to? Such tactics may serve you well against suspect citizens But I should pity you should you have to face off against any of the Knights of the Round Table. Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from King Joker or Emperordmb? From Harrison or, stars help you, Darthant66?. Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that your reputation will end up beyond repair.
Chris wrote:Apple, meet orange.
I don't quite understand how these feats are similar.
One fought and pressed the greatest Jedi Master.
You’re so terribly inconsistent. You’ve already conceded Kam would have died had Luke been trying to kill him.Chris wrote:-Luke definitely won the duel.
-Luke was not trying to kill Kam. If he wanted to, he could easily make heads roll. So clearly he was holding back a little.
You’ve also similarly conceded that Luke isn’t “as potent” when he holds back.
color=#6600FF]]Naturally, Luke isn't as potent when he's holding back. Obviously. But as we see in the below examples, holding back does not equate to being trash:
[/quote]
You say you’re not going to scale Kam to DE Luke level.Chris wrote:I won't attempt to scale Kam above or near DE Luke, as that's just an absurd notion by any metric.
But he’s still “pressing” Luke. And please, spare me the speech about semantics. The truth of the matter is pressing is synonymous with pressure. That notion is tremendously generous to Solusar, Because it is simply not true and which is something you yourself have already conceded to.
Like the Dark Side Adepts? Those “fodder” had mastered Telekinesis, Lightning, Drain, and Force Destruction. But I’m glad you mention fodder, let’s revisit DE, shall we?Chris wrote:The other......... beat fodders. It's not like the Disciples of Ragnos were particularly powerful fodder, either. Much of their ranks were non force sensitives artificially empowered.- Random Dark Side Adepts > Solusar:
If that’s the only thing you got from what I posted then I’m very disappointed.Chris wrote:Somehow I'm not that impressed here. Your plea here (and in the rest of this debate) is quantity>quality. Which doesn't really work.
Lol way to lowball.Chris wrote:Cool. But why is this better than Kam's feat? Alora is just a slightly more powerful version of the fodder you face throughout the game.
Because Korr is single-handedly dismantling an entire Imperial Installation filled with Stormtroopers, Specops(HazardTroopers, Cloaked Snipers, etc), and Dark Jedi all while Alora is using Dun Moch on him from afar yet despite that Tavion’s “prized” apprentice is no match for Jaden despite Alora having trained “furiously” and using a brand new style in which she is described as being “extremely deadly” with. By being Alora’s second in command/apprentice she is >The Kothos Twin / Reborn Jedi/ Cultists which means she is the strongest within a group of being artificially empowered by nexus.Chris wrote:Neither of which is a good look for her. We can look at it two ways:
A: Like I said above, she's a slightly better version of the usual fodder you face in the game.
B: She can't even physically catch up to and kill a force user with drained reserves.
Yeah lets go with A. It's a lot less sad. Still doesn't make Alora look good but whatever.
All you new-gen debaters seem to be particularly talented at the False Dilemma fallacy huh?
Or Jaden is just that much of a prodigy. Which isn’t as weak an argument as the cope you’re spewing
When it comes to shields+ammo We know from the text that the shields aren’t capable of resisting something stronger than a blaster and after 50 blaster bolts the shield dissipates. I’ll address this in greater detail later.Chris wrote:It's not all one long confrontation or fight. What do I mean by this? Well you have the option to heal yourself in between fights and such. So it's not like he can't rejuvenate himself before killing more fodder.
However as far as healing himself goes that would be incorrect as the guide purposely informs the player of when they should heal themselves.
This is pure cope and a weak argument. Even if that were the case, unfortunately, energy shields have a bit of an issue and wouldn’t last quite long when Korr’s moving down as many troopers as he could nor does it stand up to something more powerful than a blasterbolt like, say, a lightsaber.Chris wrote:And more to this point: Jaden has an energy shield on for all his showings in Academy. You can argue that the advantage is minimal, but at the end of the day, he still has something that can tank multiple blaster bolts and/or saber strikes for him.Kotor wrote:When equipped and activated, these items project an energy shield around the wearer. The small power source can burn out when repeatedly stressed, requiring replacement of the entire unit.
Lmao you are a card. You’re own “proof” literally states that the shield could only really work against blasters, fifty bolts to be exact, and is virtually useless against anything else meaning that no, his shield wouldn’t come into play in any of his duels in JA nor does it bog down his feats. Try again.That means we can't exactly quantify how well he did and whether or not he got tagged. So that casts doubt on, and potentially bogs down all his feats and showings in Academy.
So then the point of this was…..none. You reek of desperation bud.You could argue that he'll have this advantage in our hypothetical fight. However..... no. He won't. Jaden was never depicted using a shield in his duology. Nor FOTJ for that matter. Guess he experienced a drop in IQ between JA and FOTJ if he decided to stop using it.
Right the same Kam that allegedly pressed (which he didn't) Luke got his tail handed to him by the random adepts, which only reinforces Luke's statements regarding Kam's inexperience and Kam's own admission to lacking control. This is the Kam you think “pressed” Luke? The Kam that is potent that even as a newb he destroys Jaden? Surely you can do better, rng? Because it seems to me that poor Kam can’t even handle some fodder adepts.This is an even better look for Kam. With little experience, he's able to not only press Luke, but oneshot a DSE member. Just imagine how big a beast he becomes with formal training and such. Everything he did in DE2 was while he was basically a noob. Which is what I mentioned in my opener. And it's what makes Kam even better.
It does when you’re implying that Solusar had a power boost and is pressuring Luke as a noob. But almost right after his power “boost” Kam’s playing second fiddle to Gant, he’s inexperienced in Luke’s eyes and losing to random adepts. Hell, before you even try to wank them recall that even Jem's brother, who is literally barely trained, is matching these adepts blow for blow and occasionally killing them.Gantoris had some pretty awesome potential. Even moreso than Kyle mind you. So trainee Kam being sub trainee Gantoris has no bearing on anything. As I pointed out above, Kam at this point had only basic training as a child. He is not a full fledged Knight. (Yet) He is still a noob.
Control is fundamental to a Jedi.Chris wrote:
Allow me to provide some context, here's the full quote
Not sure how it's a bad look for Kam. If anything, you've managed to provide us with excellent Kam wank. It's almost saying the complete opposite of what you want it to say lol.
Kam is basically telling Corran that he can't properly pull his punches at that point. That's what lack of control means. Sparring with Kam is gonna be deadly for Corran because Kam might kill him due to his (then) lack of Jedi restraint. Remember, Kam's upbringing wasn't normal. Up to that point, he only used his lightsaber to kill or wound.A New hope wrote:
Ben: “Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through them!”
Luke: “You mean it controls your actions?’
Ben: “Partially, but it also obeys your commands.”Zhar Lestin wrote:“The way of the Jedi is difficult, it requires great discipline.”Zhar Lestin wrote:“She(Juhani) struck her master in anger during training, and injured her greatly.”Bodo Bass wrote:"Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."
While your argument could apply to DE Solusar, here it doesn’t. Because what Kam is admitting to is a lack of control over himself which ties into Luke’s comment about Solusar being inexperiencedChris wrote:Teachers more often than not know what they're talking about. In SW anyway. His lack of control isn't detrimental to him in versus. Quite the contrary. And Luke doesn't have a "dismissive attitude". In fact, Luke calls him a gifted duelist in the very same scan you've sent.
Luke’s dismissive attitude was in reference to their duel on Nespis. His lack of control actually is a detriment that follows him even up to his later years, seeing as he’s unable to control himself whenever Tionne got shot up.Chris wrote:
Plus, even if we take everything you say as fact: All of it only apply to JA Kam. He becomes a full Knight, Master, and Battlemaster very shortly after. Which is still better progression than Jaden.
Like I said before. Rank means nothing when we have Jedi like Obi beating almost the entirety of the Jedi Council
Again, you’ve conceded that Luke wasn’t trying/ was holding back. If you believe that a Solusar that got disarmed by three mooks means he’s even remotely close to Luke’s level then you're deluding yourself bud.Chris wrote:Already addressed above, but to further emphasize my point, if fighting Solusar has Luke grunting with effort and getting winded... that's a good look for Kam no matter how you slice it. Even with Luke holding back.
That’s not the point, the point is if Luke, per his statement, believes that the “force led” him to Solusar because there is “still good” in Solusar then clearly he isn’t trying to kill Kam/give it his all, which you’ve already agreed with. We also know that Solusar Was trying to kill while Luke was attempting to redeem him, meaning that Luke would logically have to both hold back enough that he doesn’t harm Kam Solusar while simultaneously making sure Kam’s offense is essentially rendered negligible. To reiterate, this isn’t showing that’s indicative of Kam’s abilities.Luke isn't effortlessly styling over Kam whilst holding back like he and Yoda did with the masters. It means that Kam is capable of pressing this Luke. Luke isn't dancing around him. The whole point is that sure, Luke is better than Kam. But Kam is still able to give him a good fight. Which is not something the masters fighting Yoda could do.
- Fated Xtasy
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
July 2nd 2022, 2:58 pm
Bruh, in those examples Luke/Yoda are engaging in more a dance than a duel.Chris wrote:Not so. As per the examples with Luke and Yoda.
Since the Jedi Grandmasters are sparring their respective opponents, they’re not looking to kill, merely test each other and the like, engaging in “Jedi Play.” those scenarios are different from the one involving Solusar.Cestus Deception wrote:Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.
For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into a preplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple under Master Yoda’s tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each other’s rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce random environmental elements into the interaction:, furniture, walls, slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow.
You misunderstand, I’m not saying Kam means nothing in this sense, I mean that in that duel, Luke was “breaking character” by going as far as saying “you cannot defeat me.” and “your dark side powers mean nothing to me". Sure, in the grand narrative of DE Kam was important to the story, but that means little in a versus series and thus isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seemChris wrote:Already addressed all these points but let me add a bit more. Your implication is that Kam means very little to Luke overall. That just isn't so. Luke in Empire's End believes that losing Solusar could be detrimental to the revival of the Jedi. And it's not like it's unsupported by the lore. Given that Kam laid the basis for the academy's lightsaber combat.
Only when it helps the agenda, amirite?Chris wrote:The opinions of non force users hardly matters. But if you wanna play this game, sure. I can match that.
I’ll admit that’s great for Kam, but my suggestion with Wedge is that Luke is going out of his way to praise Jaden to General Antilles, so Luke holds Jaden in high esteem. Moreover, Jaden spearheaded the assault on a Palpatine-level threat like Ragnos, which obviously indicates that Luke /Katarn thought highly of Korr’s skillset, but I digress.Chris wrote:Solusar was held in such a high regard by Mon Mothma, (whose opinion arguably holds way more weight than Chewie or Wedge's) that she gave him a temporary General's commission. Achieving a rank that high in the NR is nothing to shake one's head at. In fact, he led the mission to sabotage and destroy the Eclipse 2. More impressive than Chewie or Wedge calling him a promising Jedi.
I’m not the one grasping at straws, love.Repeating the same wonky talking points doesn't really get you anywhere. Nice try though.
If that’s the case why are you so inclined to minimize the great change in Jaden that was felt across the galaxy by Luke? Especially when Jaden literally rejected the dark-side by not utilizing Force Lightning against Alpha? Korr notes that his connection to the Force is saturated by something elseChris wrote:You're attempting to handwave something that's super clear. We have precedence for characters becoming better/stronger upon rejecting the dark side. Luke is the prime example of that. Kam was tortured until he turned to the dark side. The light within him was smothered. Once Luke lifted that shroud from his mind, he was able to shine brightly. Kam's redemption is written to be very similar to that of Luke's in Dark Empire. Luke gave into the dark side but upon rejecting it, he had more clarity and power. I mean just look at how he goes from losing to Palpatine in a duel to beating him. Which is mirrored by Kam being able to oneshot his former master
Crosscurrent wrote:“the same way his own signature was that of a light-side user adulterated with… something else.”
Your double standards are showing, Jaden's clearly in the same situation where something is hindering him, and his connection causing it to become poorer in quality. Korr manages to overcome this and you say "it's just emotion." but Kam does it and it's a power boost? That's some wonky logic right there.
Uh-huh...Chris wrote:None of this changes my point whatsoever. The odds were still impossible for him, Luke, and the Ysanna. Yet they overcame those odds and handily beat their opponents whilst weakened/tired.
New Essential Chronology wrote:Before the two could complete their search for information, Executor Sedriss tracked them down. The Jedi and Ysanna warriors drove back the Imperial shock troops.
mmm, interesting.
Quotes support that it was largely due to the Ysanna that the Imps were bested, so much for that argument.Star Wars Handbook Issue 3, Dark Empire wrote:But Executor Sedriss was not far behind. With fellow dark-side adept Vill Goir and a host of dark troopers, Sedriss commenced to attack the Jedi reunion. But they underestimated the fighting strength of the Ysanna, made hardy by generations of life on a wasted world, and the dark troopers were destroyed.
You’re treating it like it was just Kam who was fighting the Dark troopers lmao my example shows that Jaden was taking on fierce resistance by himself as opposed to having tremendous assistance from the Ysann and Luke.Chris wrote:Apples to oranges once again. "Fierce resistance" does not equal impossible odds. It's a different kind of feat. Also refer back to my point regarding energy shields and the possibility of him healing after combat.
Same as the above.
Weak bro, just weak.
Chris wrote:Jaden Korr > Odds of the Bast Castle and other missions he's faced > > Odds of Ossus Mission < Kam and Luke You'd have to argue that kid Jaden is > DE 2 Luke if you wanna say that the odds he faced in his missions are greater than what Kam and Luke faced on Ossus. Since those odds were specifically manufactured to weaken Luke. And it succeeded there. So good luck with that.
Interesting diction, you’re so adept at logical fallacies, specifically the strawman and false dilemma type. Our debate pertains to Kam & Jaden, not Luke & Kam & Jaden. Your points regarding DE Kam have largely revolved around Kam’s duel with Luke and his battle with the DS troopers but you’re acting as if Kam was the sole player on that field, which he wasn’t. my arguments are centered on drawing comparisons to Kam’s feats that showcase that Jaden was achieving similar results to Solusar but without the added benefit of having Skywalker + a small army around thus implying that Jaden is superior to Solusar as he had no assistance from a Jedi as powerful as Skywalker except on the first half of Vjun whereKorr was accompanied by Katarn.
So to correct you, what I am proposing is Jaden Korr>Odds of Bast/Other Missions>Odds of Ossus>KAM.
You’re good, but you lack the finesse of a Darthant66 to pull this off.
The Cultists were empowered by a Scepter capable of storing Nexus’ from Byss, Dagobah, Bespin, Yavin’s Temples, Hoth, and the like. Given how those nexus’ were able to resurrect a Palpatine-level being, it stands to reason that they also heavily empowered the Cultists, hell with no little to no training the Cultist had mastered various aspects of the Force, and the Reborn had been enhanced by the Valley of the Jedi that had the capacity to give Katarn enough strength to match a being capable of threatening JA Luke. The capabilities of Jaden’s foes can be quantified more than some random one-off DS bucket heads my guy.Chris wrote:Plus there's no real way to quantify that Jaden's opponents were > DS amped stormtroopers. Both due to the sheer number and concentration and the fact that they were empowered by Palpatine just like the rest of the DSE. They have not only strength in numbers, but skill far beyond normal stormies, and direct power from one of the most potent force users in existence.
Chris wrote:I really hope you're not arguing that Jedi younglings can make Luke grunt with effort or get him winded. Because the lore definitely disagrees with you there.
- Ben vs Rontos:
- Tempest wrote:Luke shook his head. “Jacen can’t protect you all the time, and he’s not training you. I’ve sparred Rontos who are better.”
Despite the affront—Rontos were eight-to ten-year-old academy students—Ben remained surprisingly calm. “I’m not sure I believe that. I’m pretty sure I’m better than any kid who’s still working with a training prod.”
“Then prove it,” Luke said. “You don’t even have to make me ignite my lightsaber. Just make me move my feet.”
Ben scowled, obviously suspicious. “Dad, come on. We both know—”
“Do it!” Luke ordered. “If Jacen is training you so well, prove it. Just make me move one foot.”
Ben furrowed his brow but slipped into a fighting stance and began to circle behind Luke.
Luke closed his eyes and concentrated on the drone of the lightsaber, all the time tracking Ben’s presence through the Force, waiting for the telltale flicker of resolve that would mean his son was attacking. It did not come until Ben was directly behind him, where Luke would be forced to pivot to see the attack.
But Luke didn’t need to see. He merely listened until the drone of the lightsaber began to change pitch, then raised his free hand and made a grasping motion, grabbing the hilt of Ben’s weapon through the Force and holding it motionless two meters away.
Ben grunted in surprise, but he was both resourceful and quick. Luke heard the lightsaber deactivate as the hilt was released, then felt his son flying toward the center of his back. He dropped his own lightsaber and turned his weapon hand toward the floor, rooting himself to the Force. Ben struck an instant later, kicking out with both feet in an attempt to send Luke flying.
Luke did not budge, and Ben hit the floor with another loud thump.
“Rodder!”
Luke remained motionless, but he opened his eyes and summoned Ben’s lightsaber into his grasp. “Does that mean you give up?”
“Not…yet.”
Luke sensed another flicker of excitement in the Force, then glanced over his shoulder to see Ben summoning the lightsaber Luke had dropped just a moment earlier.
When it arrived, Ben hefted its weight a couple of times, then scowled and opened the base.
Nothing came out.
Ben turned to Luke in astonishment. “You couldn’t activate the blade!” he complained. “There’s no power cell!”
“No, there isn’t.” Luke turned to face his son full-on. “A Jedi’s greatest weapon is his mind.”
Ben’s face grew red. “So I’ve heard.” He rose and handed Luke’s lightsaber to him. “Thanks for rubbing my nose in it.”
The implication here is that younglings have made Luke budge, activate his saber, and put in the effort. Let me emphasize that I’m NOT saying Youngling>Kam. What I am saying is that based on your concessions Kam was a noob, had no real formal training, and had the “most stunted growth.” It’s not far-fetched to compare Kam(who was also inexperienced, and lacked control) to a youngling who is capable of doing better than Ben(i.e doing all the things Ben couldn't do.)
Chris wrote:Observe how Luke effortlessly styles on these apprentices whilst lecturing them. Isn't get winded or anything:
Because they're sparring, engaged in the best form of "Jedi Play." of course he's not going to be tuckered out
Which Kam did not do lol.Chris wrote:Pressing a Luke, even a Luke that's holding back, isn't something just anyone can do.
Refer back to my point about how big of help the Ysanna were, different circumstances, and so on.Chris wrote:Refer back to my point on quantifying Jaden's opponents vs DS amped troopers. Different circumstances, different volumes of enemies, etc, etc
How can we quantify it though? Kam goes to become a battlemaster, great, he joins the council, great, he spars against the Jedi he helped train, great, and then... he nearly dies to snipers? Not so greatChris wrote:Dark Empire 2 takes place during 10 ABY. Fate of the Jedi is 44 ABY. Why wouldn't that Kam be vastly above noob Kam?
The issue there is the community existed for years, whereas Luuke was, per your statement, less than a year old, as such the Clones had more time to master the abilities already at their disposal and hone their skill than their Skywalker counter-part this would undoubtedly grant them greater mastery than their less-refined clone-kin.Chris wrote:The first scan you've sent here says they had an "extant" knowledge of their force sensitivity. Meaning they were born knowing full well they had force sensitivity. That is an advantage most force users don't have. They're often discovered by other Jedi or other force users. The clones' fast growth can largely be attributed to that. Plus, recall how Luuke was able to more or less match Luke. And he wasn't even a year old. Fast advancement is not exclusive to the Community and can't exactly be used to put Alpha far above Kam.
It’s not the defining feature in the argument, but it does support it.Chris wrote:As for the second scan, "high midi-chlorian count" means very little. It's wonky ground to scale the Community over their templates.
Well, we got like 7 Bucky’s and a single Captain America, technically. That said, the issue is despite their madness they were still breakthrough experiments that were largely defined by their master of several force abilities, and high midi-count thus while narratively they are considered failures overall the scientists achieved what they sought to do with some… dire consequences.Chris wrote:My point ultimately stands. The goal of creating breakthrough force users unbound by light and dark failed. The imps created a bunch of crazed dark siders. That part outright failed. That goal did not succeed. So right off the bat, we got failed supersoldiers.
High Midi-count =higher potential= higher force reserve = better augmentation. Furthermore, recall that the Clones mastered their abilities right after they were created and brought together, more importantly their power “continued to grow” meaning that their mastery didn’t just stop it kept going, and going.Chris wrote: The quotes you've sent state that they have a high midichlorian count and that they were able to master basic force powers. That is not solid ground to scale Alpha above Kam.
Given that the scientists had access to DNA of their templates + Palpatine it stands to reason that they would have compared the data between Clone and Template+Palpatine as opposed to comparing data between Clone and a normal sentient being, that just wouldn’t make sense given what they’re trying to achieve.Chris wrote:You could argue that the Doctor saying "extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count" means that they believe them to have more midichlorians than their templates. But that's suspect insight. Why? Simply because the cloning of force users just isn't a thing that often happens in the galaxy. This whole operation was experimental for them. The clones have "extraordinarily high" midichlorians compared to most beings. Not compared to their templates.
We all know the higher the midi-count the higher the potential because of Anakin bro. You don’t get to decide what they mean or don’t. The implications are based on their statements of continued growth, and mastery, and they can be defined as being stronger than their counterparts, especially when, as I've stated before, they seemingly had access to DNA samples from the templates.Chris wrote:The scientists don't mean to say the Community is > their templates in potential. Just that they have a lot of midichlorians.
He wouldn’t, there’s a reason we don’t get an answer to the question “is Jaden a clone?’ he likes to keep things open to interpretationChris wrote:In fact, you'll notice that it's never stated that the Community is equal to or superior to their templates in the force. Don't you think Kemp would have thought to mention that? Especially since he outright mentioned Alpha's physical superiority?
Crosscurrent Q&A: JediCouncilForums wrote:
Man, I always get the weirdos. But okay. First, let me say that I'm a firm believer in readers owning my books once their out of my hands. My intent with particular aspects of a novel is relevant only for informational purposes. Each reader actually experiences the novel as they experience it, and my intent is irrelevant to that. That said, here's my intent with Kell:
Way to backpedal my guyIn all honesty, I'm being generous when I say Alpha > ~ < Kam.
Lets look into the operation's plan again. They wanted to create basically an equal parts light and dark breakthrough force user. That part, I've made clear. But how would they go about doing that? It's simple. We know they combined the templates' DNA with that of Palpatine:
Note the first line. They're not just taking Jedi DNA as is and adding Palpatine power to it. They're recombining samples into a usable form for their attempt at making a light and dark breakthrough force user. Meaning what? They're taking a percentage of each side. So it's X% Jedi DNA and Y% Palpatine DNA. For the clones to have more potential as you suggest, they'd have to use like 100% Jedi DNA and add Palpatine power to that.
The issue is that these were the breakthrough Force users and that they were, for the longest time, considered a success. We saw how those individuals, the DS troopers were considered the best of the best just by being empowered by Sheev, these clones have his DNA surging through them. Even though the tissue they used is a variable it’s still a combination of Palpatine DNA and Jaden/Mara/Lumiya/Kam/Katarn DNA which all have a great deal of potential. While you’re right in saying that X% Jedi DNA + Y% Palpatine Dna = ? statements like the one involving midi-chlorians support the idea that the answer to X+ Y = Something exponential given their rapid mastery and ever-increasing power.
There is information, as presented in a prior post that showcases their rapid growth+mastery especially given the inclusion of Palpatine DNA.Chris wrote:As such, we can't just assume the clones' potential is far above their templates. My generous estimate would put the community slightly above, below, or equal in potential. And like I said, there is nothing stating that the Community is far better than their templates in potential.
Chris wrote:
There is a problem with the chain you propose.
Soldier's supremacy over his fellow clones lies not in power levels or even dueling skill. He's the best of them because he isn't suffering from the same clone madness and physical illness that they are. It's noted in the first quote you've sent with "and he showed no signs of the illness that afflicted the rest." And in the second quote, Seer outright says his perfection is "In body and mind."
That doesn’t answer the quest of why the One Sith refer to Soldier as the Prime nor does even come close to explaining just how Soldier was able to resist Nyss’ Force Suppression while the others couldn’t. This is just cope, Soldier is there better in every way, body, mind, and potential. We saw how he smacked that clone two-blade and essentially had Runner submitting to him on most occasions.
It means nothing because you say so? Consider that the third Jaden clone’s name is quite literal, the iteration. Why would it be any different for Soldier? Even if it was “just a codename.” it still implies that they think of him of the Prime of the clonesChris wrote:Prime is just their codename for him. It means nothing in and of itself. You could argue that Soldier's resistance to Nyss' void grants him supremacy over his fellow clones, but that was never attributed to pure, raw force power. Could very well be hax in play.
Especially considering that Hunter, the Mara clone was easily depowered by Nyss' void
So was the Katarn clone and even Wrrylock. You can’t really fault The Mara-Clone when being disconnected from the force effectively nullifies both lightsabers and their abilities.
Chris wrote:And if we wanna assume that Hunter's potential is around Mara's... And that Jaden is ~ Soldier in power/potential..... Well, Mara>Jaden is a thing. Mara could have instantly become the best student in the Academy whenever she rejoined:
And Luke and Mara were considered to be the best warriors in the NR:
There is far more I can provide as proof of Mara's supremacy to Jaden in power and potential but you get the idea.
Which is great and all but MOTS Mara, and all iterations before MOTS, is sitting right below Jaden per Katarn.
Chris wrote: Soldier is not necessitated to scale above the rest of the community in power. His supremacy to them merely lies in the fact that he isn't a deranged psycho that's dying of clone related illness.
At this point we're arguing semantics, my point stands, Soldier is the Prime of the Clones.
NawChris wrote:Thanks! I'll go with Jaden > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar.
Maybe you should quit being so generous? You’ve already “generously” conceded that Jaden was weaker in crosscurrent, now you’re backpedaling!Chris wrote:As I've explained in my opener, his "benighted" sensitivity was only within the force vision that he had. He was able to draw on the force just fine throughout the rest of the book. I'll be generous and entertain the notion that his PTSD might have made him fight not as well as he usually could. But guess what? There is zero evidence to suggest that he's inferior by a noteworthy or significant degree.
To put it another way: If you're visually impaired or unable to hear or have any number of disabilities within a dream, you obviously won't suffer those same effects once you wake up.
Me saying Jaden > PTSD Jaden is yet another generous estimate.
Chris wrote:1: Jaden was suffering from PTSD in Crosscurrent. Clearly he wasn't at 100%.
While Jaden is weaker in Crosscurrent, we can't really quantify just how much weaker he is. An earlier line in the book refers to his sensitivity as benighted:
Again given how his mental state goes from doubtful to hopeful and the importance of a Jedi’s mindset(see Luke in ESB) we can safely assume that there’s a difference between Crosscurrent Jaden and Riptide! Jaden. You've already agreed to it and now you're not exactly sure? Sus my guy.Chris wrote:
So that leaves us with:
Jaden Korr > PTSD Jaden < < Alpha < ~ > Kam Solusar
Generic TK feats within Academy's exaggerated video game medium and basic force pushes within his books. They're hardly damning or quantifiable against Kam's throwing boulders with enough force to bring down TIEs. Why compare apples to oranges when I can just prove Kam's supremacy to Korr with my superior chain?
LOL This isn’t TFU, but okay. In any case, Kam’s boulder feat is impressive, but consider Korr was tossing boulders and pillars four times his size this isn't beyond Jaden. Again, Korr's held back the combined might of Soldier, and Runner, the clones of two very powerful Jedi. He's not going to buckle under Solusar when he's holding back two Master level combatants.
Chris wrote:Who cares? Literally anyone and everyone can use TK when advantageous moments arise in duels. In fact, here's Kam being stated to wield force powers and his lightsaber in an ancient dance of death.
Against non-force sensitives, impressive. Cut to him getting choked by Sedriss
It didn’t take much to take him down beyond a single push.Chris wrote:Casually dismissing? How do you plot that course? The very passage you sent says he took Runner by surprise:
You’ve also already conceded he was weaker, so we can move on. But I find it funny how you can see a clear change in a person's mental state that ties into their combative mindset and say "naw, that's negligible." but look at Kam's feat and say "yeah, he's way stronger."Chris wrote:Yes, he's more serene, he feels as if he has more purpose. He's gotten over the PTSD and lack of purpose. That's cool. But guess what? Never once in Crosscurrent is he stated to not be able to draw on the Force. The only example of that is the vision and I've already addressed that above. As Luke said in the scan you've sent, Jaden is just calmer
Chris wrote:He was able to use the force just fine. In fact, he does in the Alpha fight:
When I said he wasn't at a 100%, it was purely related to mindset. Not ability to use the force. He can draw on power just fine. But he's just not as zen. So sure, he's not at 100. He's at 90. Not a meaningful step down. Think about it like a less intense version of Mustafar Vader.
Nah, considering Jaden’s having moments where lightning is spewing from his hands without him calling it forth, I think it’s less mindset related and more to do with the connection.
Crosscurrent wrote:“ Jaden nodded, took the seat Khedryn offered. He realized he was sweating. He felt a tingle in his fingertips, the beginning of a discharge of Force lightning. He fought it down, putting the hand in his pocket as if it were a proclamation of his guilt”
Crosscurrent wrote:“He found himself staring at his fingertips, the fingertips on which his anger or fear sometimes formed Force lightning. He did not trust himself anymore, he realized. Doubt was the fundamental core of his being. Relin had sensed it in him.”
Crosscurrent wrote:“He looked down at his hand as if it were a thing apart from him, a piece of him that had betrayed the rest and thereby corrupted the whole. Tiny streamers of Force lightning curled around the glow rod, twisting like things alive.”
Right back at ya.Chris wrote:See above.
T
You should read the book again, at this point I can’t tell if you just really want the W or just didn’t read it.Chris wrote:o touch up on the Luke part.... you do know Jedi can sense emotions, right? Luke is just saying Jaden is more zen. Same thing for Relin's comments. They're just commenting on his emotional state.
Doubt didn't stop him from sinking into the calm of the Force. Crosscurrent Jaden is nowhere near as disadvantaged as you make him out to be.
No, he is, no force user with a strong connection is going to be having spurts of lightning shooting from their hands if they’re fully in control. Keep trying tho!
You’re really picking and choosing here huh? Adi was beaten back slowly in certain cases, immediately destroyed in other cases, and just straight up outmatched in the majority. Strength is a factor that helped Alpha that Solusar isn’t afforded.Chris wrote:I find it funny that you use the Adi example of all things. Considering a large part of why Savage beat her was due to his own force power supremacy. Hell, it only strengthens my point if anything. So thanks. There is actually a far better example you could have used to argue the point of strength being an important factor but I'll let you figure it out.
Which the clones have due to their mastery, count, and continued growthChris wrote:Whatever the case, more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.
Anakin had both, but the text states that it’s Anakin’s sheer strength that’s hurting the count. Try again.Chris wrote:
Also, one of the scans you've used for this point runs counter to your argument:
Force reserves are painted as the more important of the two factors.
Jaden can think whatever he wants, but what part of those examples is lost on you? Strength plays a part in combat in combination with the Force, otherwise Djem So wouldn't be a thing.Chris wrote:Is the importance of the Jaden quote I sent lost on you? This man got brutalized and still ultimately thinks "Very little about this is physical." He himself doesn't believe Alpha's physical strength was a key point in that fight.
Which means the Kam clone had both power and strength.Chris wrote:I'll repeat myself: more force power = more speed, foresight, and augmentation ability = better overall.
Waiting!Chris wrote:See above.
Chris wrote:Are you seriously trying to use Kam being ambushed and cheapshotted by snipers as anti wank?
The GAG is comprised of the best soldiers in the galaxy.
Even with all their skills, they decided to draw Kam out and cheapshot him instead of facing him head on. The best of the best in the galaxy knew they stood no chance in conventional combat
Add to that the fact that Solusar actually survived three sniper shots. Doesn't matter how injured he was. Most characters would not survive that. So nice try, but... this is hardly anti wank. Or quantifiable for that matter..
They’re literally non-force users, where did the fallanasi illusion go? What about those amazing TK feats? How about those two years of battlemaster experience? What? They didn’t do anything? Say it ain’t so! Even Valin and the mook Jedi were able to defend against GAG while dueling Caedus, hell Jaina and Fel were taking on GAG barehanded. Nice excuse but all that mastery didn’t help Kam then, won’t help him now buddy!
Chris wrote:Done. With extreme finesse.
Chris wrote:Oh don't you worry. I'll cover Kam's vast superiority in knowledge real soon. Stay tuned.
Anyway, I could keep responding but the rest of your post is just you repeating your wonky points. And I really don't feel the need to repeat myself in turn. So lets move onto something fun, shall we?
Concession accepted!
Of course.Chris wrote:I'll be introducing a couple extra arguments chains now that I'm done responding. Try to keep up.
The thing is that Knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean Kam got amazing powers from it.Chris wrote:This one's simple. Solusar was not only co administrator of the Yavin Academy, but a founder of the Ossus Academy. As a teacher, he'd have to be a cut above the rest in knowledge.
But here's confirmation that Kam has studied/learned more. It's not exactly vague either. He's interfaced with the Great Holocron. A holocron that has so much knowledge, that not even the longest lived Jedi can completely study it.
Wizards of the Coast: Great Holocron wrote:One query limited to the factual history of the Republic. Many sections, especially dark side-related information, are still concealed. Basics of lightsaber construction explained.
One query that may include history or philosophy. Dark Force secrets still elusive, Sith history and ancient Republic records are not. More complicated lightsaber construction, including double-bladed and variable-length varieties, explored in historical terms.
Two queries in the subjects of combat, history, and philosophy. Dark side explored with some depth, including more intensive techniques to resist its call.
Two queries into combat, history, philosophy, and the dark side. As a Jedi artifact, information on the dark side is rarely complimentary, but at this level is otherwise unrestricted.
Three queries, otherwise the same level of information as 21-27.
Four queries, unlimited access. Note that some secrets, such as the deepest workings of the Sith, still may not be contained in the Great Holocron
It’s more a guide than something with great knowledge like the Revan Holocron
Korr’s not the one getting called inexperienced, given his knowledge of history involving Naga Sadow, and the Rakata, as well as access to both esoteric and conventional light as well as dark-side abilities I sincerely doubt Kam has any experience that Korr lacks.Chris wrote:While Jaden may have access to the teachings in Jedi vs Sith, Kam has the firsthand experience/knowledge that Korr simply lacks. Safe to say that they didn't scribe everything they got from the Great Holocron. Kam is Indiana Jones. Korr is one of his college students basically.
Chris wrote:During the early years of the Vong war, Luke taught Kam and Tionne a Fallanassi technique of projecting illusions. During Edge of Victory, Kam and Tionne kept the academy safe from casual inspection. While there were other Jedi on the moon, as per various sources, Kam and Tionne were the ones holding it:
Only under extremely close scrutiny was the illusion eventually seen through. But the fact remains. Kam and Tionne were able to project a moon tier illusion that kept the academy safe from casual inspection. And lets be honest here... Kam was doing the heavy lifting
Right, the Illusion that broke whenever all the Jedi Knights left?
NJO: Conquest wrote:“What about the illusion the Jedi have been mainítaining around Yavin Four? That's been keeping strangers away."
"Not since almost all of the Jedi Knights have left," Anaíkin said.”
NJO:Conquest wrote:“Luke nodded. "Don't feel bad. It was only a few days ago that we had enough reports to spot the trend and realize just how seriously the warmaster's promise has been taken. Trying to deal with all the local fires, trying to find government support to put a stop to this or at least slow it down, I didn't realize that there are no longer enough mature Jedi in the system to maintain the illusion we were projecting.”
NJO: Conquest wrote:“It's not the best-kept secret in the galaxy," Jacen said. "And with the illusion gone, what could Kam do against a warship? Let us go.”
Shame that Kam didn’t think to use it against GAG when they took over the Academy, makes you wonder if it even combats applicable. And, it seems Kam had enough help that when enough jedi left the Illusion couldn't be projected. Countered.Chris wrote:Now that's a moon tier feat. However you slice it, it's impressive. And unfortunately for Jaden, it's something Kam will have access to within the fight and should he decide to use it, it'll be a hard counter for Jaden.
cute.Chris wrote:To further hammer home this point, Kam as of 25-27 ABY is much better at telepathy than Jaden's master, Kyle at 29 AbY as per stats.
Potent force skills? The illusion that broke once the Jedi Knights left? And… boulders that didn’t even destroy a tie fighter but make a dent in it… oh how will I respond!!Chris wrote:So, Jaden will have to deal with not only Solusar's extremely potent dueling and force skills, but he'll also have to deal with mindfuckery and illusions, should Kam decide to use them.
Kam has nothing in his skillset that is going to give Jaden any trouble, Kam doesn't compare to Soldier or Runner nor does he compare to Ragnos or Mother.
Chris wrote:For my final additional point in this post, lets hammer home the supremacy Kam's status as a master grants him, shall we?
First off, no matter what Korr's position in Riptide was, it's clear that he returned to being a Jedi Knight by the time of Fate of the Jedi
So he's no longer a master. And sure, you could argue that he is still at that level. However.... The lore would disagree with you:
Like i’ve said before, rank generally means nothing in combat. I’ll repeat myself once more, Jaden was already Master level in the eyes of the Council otherwise he wouldn’t have been offered the title
Lol now you’re taking the piss. This a weak argumentChris wrote:Clearly, it's Denning's intent to put masters far above Knights. To the point where they can literally shut up Knights and everyone below them casually with the Force. And Korr full well knows this. Kam happens to be a very prestigious master. And would be written as being able to easily do the same to Korr.
Respectfully, you’re an ass lmao.Chris wrote:This isn't even crucial to my point. Just more insult to injury for Jaden.
I assume you mean Katarn? I’ve already provided proof that objectively states that individuals with monstrous strength have the added benefit of being stronger in ADDITION to their Force Reserves. At this point, I don’t know what else to tell you lmao.Chris wrote:Conclusions/Recap:
-Your argument for Kam's advantage being negligible at best doesn't work. Jaden training under Kam isn't anywhere near quantifiable proof.
That really isn’t up for you to decide though is it?Chris wrote:-Your attempts to lowball noob Kam either just don't work or go against your bottom line.
Yes, how could we forget that Kam went from allegedly pressuring Luke to losing to nameless adepts that an untrained Ysanna could kill. How impressive.Chris wrote:-No matter how you slice it, Kam's fight against Luke in DE2 is impressive for a noob.
Darling, Korr’s feats are all impressive, they’re all quality. Kam had one duel with Luke and you think he’s > Jaden despite evidence to the contrary that suggests that 1. Luke was holding back. 2. His growth is called into question when he’s disarmed by some adepts. 3 He, as a council member, is nearly killed by GAG soldiers. 4. His superspecialawesome! Knowledge and abilities didn’t do anything to save him or his wife. Your argument hinge on framing Kam’s abilities(disingenuously) as tremendously more powerful than Korr when context, lore, and his admissions say otherwise. In short, Kam is impressive, but he’s terribly inconsistent.Chris wrote:-All the arguments you made for Jaden in JA hinge on quantity over quality, whereas Kam's best performances are all quality.
You said it yourself more power = augmentation, speed etc. I’ve already said my piece but let me reiterate that we have three comments supporting my idea that the clones are potent and all you have to go on is…. “Let’s assume.” “it’s not quantifiable.” and “but Luuke!” which all really lack foundation.Chris wrote:-Your argument for the Community's potential being above the templates relies on generic statements of a "high midichlorian count" and "fast advancement through basic stages". Neither of which is nearly enough to put them above their templates. Nor is the Jedi + Sith DNA. Even if by some miracle, they're above the OGs, it isn't by a margin large enough to be detrimental to my case.
See above.Chris wrote:-Your wank for Soldier simply doesn't work.
Not as Riptide, you’ve already conceded as much. Nice try though!Chris wrote:-Jaden is sub Alpha.
You literally posted the Fallanasi illusion which dispersed after the Jedi left, information regarding the Great Holocron which grants Kam some knowledge, and force shutting a mouth as a joke. All Weak.Chris wrote:-Kam has supremacy in overall knowledge and has abilities that will be hard for Jaden to counter.
Lets find our judges and may the best man win.Chris wrote:That concludes my post. Best of luck in responding. Don't you disappoint me.
To close this out:
- Korr has mastered his Force abilities to the point where he matches the Clone of a Councillor, and his own clone, both of which have highly destructive capabilities. Kam does not compare to either of them. Kam's illusion was held by multiple Jedi along with his wife, then dispersed when only Kam, Streen, Irkit, and Tionne remained, it will not come into play here. Kam's TK does not compare to Korr by any stretch of the imagination, his destroying of a speeder, and peppering a Tie with boulders don't compare to Jaden's pillar feet nor does it compare to holding back the combined might of two Jedi Master level combatants. Kam has nothing.
- Jaden's use of the blade kept Ragnos at bay to the point where Korr literally two-shotted the Sith Lord that in the eyes of Sith like Kreia were more skilled than the current modern-day Jedi.
- DE are incredibly consistent in that it sticks with the narrative established by different sources that states he lacks control and experience. You're arguing that Kam was pressing Luke and grew more powerful but ended up losing to noob Adepts? Adepts that Jem's brother was also fighting with minimal training. You learn Ataru because the mental gymnastic you're doing to come to this conclusion is on par with Yoda's Ataru.
- You've conceded several points involving Jaden's state in Crosscurrent, and Luke holding back, now you're back pedaling.
In short, Jaden is winning.
Good luck on your final response, rng. Regardless of what happens, it's been fun.
- Chris Cortosis
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
July 15th 2022, 10:59 pm
The Fated Downfall of Jaden Korr
All I said what that Kam at one point was the best swordsman bar Luke. And that's good hype. Katarn was irrelevant to that point. Kam is a top tier. That's the bottom line. This isn't hard to understand.Fated Xtasy wrote:The matter of contention is you’re arguing Kam was the second most skilled swordsman barring Luke while simultaneously dismissing that Kam’s time as battlemaster was relatively short compared to Katarn who held that position for decades. Meaning that Kam lacks the same skill, knowledge, and experience as someone who is subjectively sitting right below Skywalker as a combatant.
If he made Luke struggle.... then guess what? He is a challenge to that Luke.Fated Xtasy wrote:Passing Solusar off as being a challenge for Luke when you’ve already conceded Kam is nowhere near him is laughable.
Then your point on Kyle>Kam is worthless. Jaden being apprentice to a superior master means literally nothing against Kam. It is not any evidence that would put Jaden above Solusar in any way.Fated Xtasy wrote:This is such a strawman argument, No one said anything about Korr being = Katarn.
Tionne was not promoted to the rank of Master along with Kam. As of circa 27 ABY, she was still referred to as a Knight.Fated Xtasy wrote:Anyways, 11BBY-13BBY wherein Solusar did what exactly? Beyond being made a master along with Jedi with no relative skill in the Force like his wife? Bar’s rather low.
- Knight Tionne:
-Who's Who in the New Jedi Order?
Even with that aside, Tionne does not represent the baseline for power or skill for the rank of Master. She was a special case. Sure, she isn't strong with the Force. But her teaching abilities surpass even that of Luke's. Hell, she took over the administration of the Academy along with Kam from Luke. So she has a certain type of talent to warrant a high rank.
- Better Teacher:
-Fact File 125
So no. Kam being promoted that fast isn't reflective of a low bar.
All fluff and no content. You failed to answer my question. There is no quantifiable ability that he's learned under Kyle that would give him any edge over Solusar.Fated Xtasy wrote:Aside from literally telling his apprentice that he’s going to be learning different styles of combat and mixing them up? Katarn “honed” Jaden’s skills, enough to where Jaden is the best student Katarn’s ever trained out of “countless” apprentices. I’ll elaborate later.
You do know Keto trained under Drallig for years, right? Whereas Jaden trained under Katarn for months at most. Do you really think that's enough time for Korr to learn everything Kyle knows? Your main point here is that training under Kyle made him better. But the briefness of his apprenticeship kinda takes away the luster.Fated Xtasy wrote:Given that Bene and Whie are not his exclusive apprentices, Certainly not, but Keto? Anakin even knew Keto was a worthy foe as Drallig’s “greatest pupil” and Drallig’s “favorite student.” therefore a threat. Funny, both Serra/Jaden are apprenticed to battlemasters and are praised high enough to be a threat. Thanks for the little comparison, ig.
Okay, and? Doesn't lessen my point. Also so were GAG snipers so congrats. Another bullet in the foot of your arguments.Fated Xtasy wrote:First off, Voxyn are literally tinkered to specifically kill and hunt Jedi.
So cheapshots can be ignored as evidence? Thanks! Because now your GAG point is even more meaningless.Fated Xtasy wrote:The use of deception is what allowed the brigade to get the drop on the Jedi.
My argument was never that Korr wasn't Kyle's best student. Merely that he didn't learn everything and that his apprenticeship to Kyle isn't in any way an advantage over Solusar.Fated Xtasy wrote:Thirdly, that measuring stick just reinforces the idea that Jaden Korr was Kyle’s best student, so.
Excellent idea.Fated Xtasy wrote:That does happen. You should make an RT tbh.
1: To clear things up: I don't need Kam to be above Kyle. That was not the intended subject of any of my arguments. Kyle>Kam and Kam>Jaden are by no means mutually exclusive (as I've proved multiple times.)Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s not the argument. What I am arguing is that Katarn is more knowledgeable than Solusar by virtue of greater experience, better feats, and longer tenure as Battlemaster as such Korr would benefit from having a much more experienced master.
2: Kam was Battlemaster from 11 to 12/13 ABY. 2 years. Kyle, as of Jaden's tenure as his apprentice (14 ABY) also had 1-2 years of experience under that role. So no. Jaden isn't training under anyone with "greater experience" or a "longer tenure". He trained under Kyle for a couple of months. Whatever disparity between later iterations of Katarn and Kam there may be, none of that is relevant to what Jaden has learned and therefore Jaden training under Kyle is utterly worthless in this debate.
This'll be fun.Fated Xtasy wrote:So you say, but really your argument is heavily contradicted. Consider the following:
It is purely philosophical lol. Kemp literally says "while he went through his crisis of faith"Fated Xtasy wrote:“Leaning heavily on Katarn’s teachings( as he remembered them ).”
So we have the author stating that Korr was essentially building his life around Katarn’s teaching, be they philosophical or otherwise. But the point is Korr still leaned heavily on Kyle’s teachings.
The intent is clear. Jaden is having a crisis of faith. Questioning ideologies, alignments, etc.
So he defaults back to leaning on what Katarn taught him regarding how one should look at the Force. Mainly this bit:
- Purely Philosophy:
The Force is a tool, Jaden. Sometimes a weapon, sometimes a salve. Dark side, light side, these are distinctions of insignificant difference. Do not fall into the trap of classification. Sentience curses us with a desire to categorize and draw lines, to fear that after this be dragons. But that is illusion. After this is not dragons but more knowledge, deeper understanding. Be at peace with that.
-Crosscurrent
The same Wyyrlok changes his tune once he's actually seen Jaden in action. He literally shrugs at his combative ability:Fated Xtasy wrote:Darth Wryylock reinforces this train of thought:
- Shrug:
"Jaden Korr fights well," Nyss said.
Wyyrlok shrugged.
-Riptide
Korr being better than no name fodder is a point for him over Solusar because?Fated Xtasy wrote:As is evident by the info provided, Katarn tempered Korr’s skill to such an extent that Korr is considered dangerous just for being apprenticed to Katarn, While Kyle saw many of his students die during the Vong war, the exception to the rule is Jaden Korr. the implication being that Korr was/is his greatest student and thus which seemingly “means” something to a number of people “in the long run.”
Not quantifiable, meaningful, or combatively applicable.Fated Xtasy wrote:With respect to esoteric abilities, Jaden’s been able to purify an unstable crystal of its dark-side energies using an ability only really used by another being, Kreia, who purified Meetra’s saber crystal in order for it to become better attuned to her. Which speaks volumes of mastery on a technical level.
Not sure where you get "easily" from. Plus this isn't even indicative of power levels. Jaden caught Alpha by surprise.Fated Xtasy wrote:While the nature of the Dark Side is typically easy, it’s impressive to note that Jaden was able to use abilities such as Force Lightning that he noted could have easily killed Alpha.
- Surprise:
The realization summoned something from deep within the dark crevices of his mind where he kept secrets even from himself. Force lightning exploded from his hand, squeezed out by the exigency of his circumstances. The blue lines spiraled around the clone's hand and lightsaber.
The clone gasped with surprise, loosened his grip, disengaged. Jaden gulped a lungful of air while the darkness within him swelled and the outburst of Force lightning intensified. Jaden knew that fear had unlocked the darkest part of himself, knew, too, that he could free that part, surrender to it, and save his body while destroying himself.
But he thought of Kyle, of his training, of Relin, and denied the impulse. The Force lightning died.
The clone recovered, growled, raised his lightsaber high.
-Crosscurrent
He had a momentary advantage due to Alpha's surprise in being cheapshotted. Honestly, seeing as how Alpha performed in the rest of the fight, it's safe to say that were Jaden to release his lightning in normal circumstances, Alpha can counter with minimal difficulty.
Also it doesn't even note that he could kill Alpha. Only "save his own body". Remember, this is dark sided thoughts we're talking about. Were it Kemp's intent that Jaden could actually kill Alpha, it would be in the text given how dark side temptations are always written. There really is no way to read this fight and come out thinking Jaden is anything but Alpha's bitch.
Anyway, to address the broader point here: No. Jaden will not have access to any sort of dark sided powers within this fight. It's made very clear that he rejects the dark side and everything its abilities represent:Fated Xtasy wrote:He was able to draw on the Dark Rage and utilize it in conjunction with Force speed to take out Ragnos! Tavion in two strikes.
- No Dark Side:
The energy of the dark side thickened. He was closing on its source. Its power alarmed him. He leaned into it, against it, as he might against a rainstorm. He flashed on a memory of Force lightning crackling out of his fingers, energy born of fear or anger. He studied his hands, the one unwounded, the other missing three fingers, and knew that fear and anger no longer held any power over him. Force lightning was not a weapon he would use again.
--
He held his hands before him, one whole, the other maimed, the stumps of his lost fingers still the black and red of charred meat. He knew he'd never again see Force lightning discharge involuntarily from his fingertips.
-Riptide
Prove that Kam can't do that. Also if Jaden is such a master with Tutaminis, he wouldn't have lost his fingers and lightsaber to Alpha. Food for thought.Fated Xtasy wrote:Additionally, Korr had the capacity to utilize The force in an advanced manner by using Tutaminus to resist Force Abilities. Which is considerably more than what Kam has going for him.
This means nothing against Kam. Nor does it really tie into your points on Kyle either. So ultimately, a nothing burger.Fated Xtasy wrote:There are several basic abilities, the most important of which are TK, that Jaden has mastered, but I’ll address those later. In short, Jaden’s easy access to the Dark Side and other advanced abilities are far more combat applicable in this scenario, barring, of course, the refocusing/cleansing of a Force crystal.
Nope. The forms we see in Outcast and Academy are Kam's introductions.Fated Xtasy wrote:Which were later disregarded in favor of Katarn’s reintegration of what are arguably the classical styles of combat considering a text in the guides describes the Medium style as the “classic saber combat style”(per Jedi Outcast: Perfect guide) and “The classic lightsaber-combat style, as used by Luke Skywalker and the young Obi-Wan Kenobi.” (per Prima’s Jedi Academy Strategy guide.) While Solusar laid the foundation of a fighting style, clearly his knowledge of combat was overshadowed by Katarn.
- Three Rings:
The outer-most ring consisted of four guard positions: upper right, upper left, lower right and lower left. The lightsaber's hilt would end up wide of the body, with the tip coming back toward the middle to pick up the grand sweeping blows that are very powerful, but also take longer to deliver.
The middle ring also involved four guard positions: high, low, left and right. Whereas in the outer ring the blade tended to be held at a diagonal, in the middle ring up and down were parallel to the ground at head and knee height, while left and right were perpendicular to it. The idea with the middle ring was to pick up quicker blows and stop them before they could inter-sect with the body. Luke also noted that the middle ring was effective against picking off blaster bolts.
The inner ring involved parries instead of blocks and was proof against lunging attacks. For this third line of defense, the lightsaber was kept in close, with the hilt covering the navel. By angling the blade's tip and picking up attacks on the lower third of the blade, attacks could be shunted aside, and a riposte to the opponent's chest or stomach became a very real possibility. The inner ring was the last line of defense, dangerous to be defending from, and dangerous to be attacking from.
-I, Jedi
At any rate, this point of yours is irrelevant. I'll repeat myself again: I don't need Kam to be above Kyle in order for Kam to humiliate Jaden.
What you essentially said just there is: "Jaden trained under the NJO while Solusar's fixtures were in place, therefore he's on par with or better than Kam"Fated Xtasy wrote:Given that Jaden trained under the NJO when these classical styles were in place, it stands to reason that he’s a far more classically trained duelist than Solusar, or at the very least he’s on par with Kam when it comes to technical skill.
Good luck arguing that.
Okay and? Being above Vader is hardly an accomplishment. And since you haven't established any link with Kam here, I'll just be handwaving this point.Fated Xtasy wrote:If we analyze raw combative skill, based solely on his passing of Vader’s training regiment, Jaden is arguably operating on a level high enough to deal with Vader’s training droids, which shouldn’t be overlooked as earlier in the game when Jaden first joined the Order we have a quote stating the following.
--
Given the importance Kyle stresses on how easily a training droid set to Luke’s level could easily have killed Korr, it stands to reason that Jaden’s skill set increased to the point of being able to withstand the same grueling training session as Vader.
As per what? Headcanon? Please back up your points.Fated Xtasy wrote:Sure he’s skilled, in the same way Kas’im and Sora Bulq were.
Oh my... You really should have found another route. You haven't the slightest idea what you've brought upon yourself.Fated Xtasy wrote:Stats are cringe, but to your point. While I’m sure that In that general area Kam may be a bit above the likes of Horn/Durron in sabers, based on their challenge rating of F they’re overall on the same level both in and out of combat. This brings me to a counterpoint.
She is also multiple levels below all of them and has inferior saber stats so..... yeah.Fated Xtasy wrote:Mara Jade, The Emperor’s Hand, is also similarly on par with Durron/Horn/Solusar in challenge level, meaning she’d be as challenging to fight as the others but obviously for different reasons.
But I'll humor you for a second: JA Mara (who is above Hand Mara) is nigh equals with Corran as per I, Jedi.
- Mara>~Corran:
then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other
-I, Jedi
So the chain you're suggesting would be:
NJO Corran / Kyp / Kam ~ Hand Mara < < JA Mara > ~ JA Corran < < < NJO Corran/Kyp/Kam
Nice circle
1: The quote in which Kyle calls Jaden his best student only applies to MOTS Mara and can't be used to bind future iterations of her.Fated Xtasy wrote:That said, since this is referring to Mara as the Hand, it stands to reason that we could apply the comments made by Katarn that state that Jaden is > Mara and therefore above an F challenge rating. Even if we disregard that, there are still statements prior to her becoming “Luke’s greatest student.” as well as others that indicate that she’s the deadliest agent in the Empire, she’s a peer of Luke, and that she’s highly powerful. And Jaden, per their shared master, is the better of the two.
2: The "Luke's greatest student" quote would bind Jaden too. Kyp is light years ahead of Kyle after a week of training:
- Light Years:
Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good. Kyp gave us hope that reestablishing the Jedi Order could be and would be done.
-I, Jedi
And given that Kyle whilst holding back is meant to be a good fight for Dark Side Sacrifice boosted Jaden Korr, we're left with:
12+ ABY Mara (Would be Luke's best student) > Kyp > > > (light year gap) > > > JAT Kyle < < JKJA Kyle > JA Jaden.
But even ignoring the above for a second, the intent of that quote (Mara being the best student) in and of itself would bind Jaden. So gg.
I'm not gonna open the can of worms that is Tavion Ragnos vs Living Ragnos. Instead, I'll do something way more fun and simple:Fated Xtasy wrote:Meanwhile, Ragnos shares his challenge rating with the likes of Sidious - both Darth Sidious, and Emperor incarnation - which indicates that Ragnos is on a similar tier of difficulty as Darth Sidious overall.
--
So while Kam may be > Horn/Kyp by a margin, Korr is > Ragnos who is, overall, >Solusar.
Here you attempt to scale Tavion Ragnos above end of NJO Kyle. There's one slight problem with that.... Y'know, a much weaker Katarn was stated to be "much more difficult" than Tavion Ragnos.Fated Xtasy wrote:And they’re both below Ragnos
- Much more difficult than Ragnos:
After killing Tavion, Kyle tries to stop you. Kyle is much more difficult than Marka Ragnos.
-Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy: Prima’s Official Strategy Guide
And as it just so happens, "much more difficult than Ragnos" Katarn is statted below 27 ABY Solusar:
- Kam and Kyle:
-Power of the Jedi
--
-NJO Sourcebook
So we're left with two choices regarding the stat block since it's counteracted by a higher source: Hold Kam and Kyle above Ragnos level or lower Ragnos to below Kam and Kyle. Either way works for me. Kam > JKJA Kyle > > Tavion Ragnos < Jaden
I could go on about how Kyle didn't wanna kill Jaden in the JKJA DS ending and how Jaden in that form was more powerful than he was in the LS ending and yada yada. But your point's already disproven and I see no reason to waste my time further.
Nice conjecture. But can you back it up?Fated Xtasy wrote:Yeah, he’s top tier in the same way Sora Bulq is. Meaning he’s skilled, to be sure. But that technical skill isn’t saving him from Jedi like Jaden just like it didn’t save Bulq from Vos or Kas’Im from Bane.
You do know how quote dating works, right? If something in the 90s is counteracted by something much later, the latter takes precedence. My scans are more recent and therefore take more precedence. Sorry.Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s in direct contention with the source material which states that Solusar was trained to the level of a Jedi knight prior to meeting Luke, both the Comic and audio drama state that Solusar was/is a Jedi Knight.
Well he did sooooooFated Xtasy wrote:Kam Solusar isn’t giving Luke anything remotely resembling a good fight.
Then we're in agreement that he isn't a proper knight as of JA and therefore that iteration can't be used to bind later iterations of the character and that your attempts to wank Korr's growth rate over Kam's falls flat? Lovely.Fated Xtasy wrote:Given your admittance that Solusar is “stunted” Pre JA
Cool story. All the better for Kam since your stat argument does nothing against him and all of this can just be applied to Solusar but at a greater degree since Kam is statted above "much more difficult than Ragnos" Kyle.Fated Xtasy wrote:I can agree that laying the foundation is impressive for Solusar, however, that really doesn’t mean anything when Jaden’s taken on Ragnos! Tavion. We know Axmis wielded “great power” ; it stands to reason that Jaden was taking on the ancient Sith that during TOR, exemplified the traits of the Sith Juggernaut.
--
To reiterate, Ragnos was “unkillable” and had the capacity to utilize rage to bolster himself. Now, as far as skill goes, let's go ahead and take a gander at this nugget.
--
These repetitive statements showcase that Ragnos was first and foremost a warrior of tremendous skill. Jaden fought this Sith and won. Only in this case, Jaden was a literal child playing with a lightsaber.
Kyp saying Jaden is "impressive" means literally nothing. It's a generic accolade. Kyp isn't conceding inferiority nor is he putting Korr at a high ranking power levels wise. This argument is a nothing burger.Fated Xtasy wrote:To your first point, you’re right, Jaden took longer to reach the same title as Solusar, but his career had been long, and impressive enough for Kyp Durron, a peer and objective superior Jedi to Solusar.
Okay and? You haven't proven that Korr scales to Kyle's level. Quite the contrary, you've denied it.Fated Xtasy wrote:Regarding your second point, yes and then he immediately lost that title to Katarn who had just reconnected with the Force and with a crash course of Jedi training.
Fated Xtasy wrote:
Also your attempt to anti wank Kyle is rather puzzling. But I'll humor you:
Katarn had prior training and wasn't a slouch. He quickly relearned everything he needed + got a massive boost from the Valley of the Jedi. I don't like this Katarn disrespect I see.
No. I'm not. In fact, in that very post, if you paid attention, I defended that point. You attempted to use Kyp saying Jaden's career was "impressive" to somehow prove that Jaden was a Master level force user. And I rightfully pointed out how it's not really relevant to anything. Since you neglected to quote what I actually said, here's the full thing.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re backpedaling, you said the following:
--Fated Xtasy wrote:
I wrote:
Maybe pay attention to what I actually wrote. I've said multiple times that I don't see why we should believe there's a massive disparity to where he holds himself and where he ultimately falls. He's certainly not written as a super high tier within the order and that's rather evident with stuff like the Alpha fight.Fated Xtasy wrote:It was my understanding that you were utilizing this as a way to insinuate that Korr lack of confidence is an admission of inferiority, I refuted that by pointing out that Jaden was *offered* the role by the Council/Luke/Katarn ergo Jaden was already, to borrow a term from LOTJ, Master level in the eyes of the Council.
Cool but I'll repeat myself. It means literally nothing. It's not something that can be used in comparison to Solusar. You'd have to do some Mister Fantastic levels of stretching and reaching to read this and think "yeah Kyp holds Jaden above Kam":Fated Xtasy wrote:Kyp has the highest force potential barring the Solo/Skywalkers, is significantly superior to Solusar, is a peer to Katarn, and led the strike force that led Jaden to his crisis of faith. Kyp’s opinion is important in that he was Korr’s leader and clearly respected Korr’s skills to a degree
Korr, a man of Coruscant and onetime apprentice of Kyle Katarn, was far too serious for Kyp’s taste, but had conducted a long and impressive career as a Jedi Knight.
-Backlash
This argument is a nothing burger.
Cool so you admit it doesn't bind Kam's generation? Thanks. You've saved me the need to respond. Appreciate it.Fated Xtasy wrote:So while the accolade doesn’t pertain to Solusar’s generation the inference here is that Korr outshone, and outclassed his peers with arguably outnumbered the masters 2-1.
See the Ragnos points above.Fated Xtasy wrote:If we focus strictly on stats Jaden was facing an entity as challenging as ROTJ/ROTS Palpatine which really puts the whole “threshold” comment on pause. If you subscribe to this Masters>Knights mentality it’s just going to end up terribly uncomfortable for you.
And Kam Solusar gave DE2 Luke a good fight. So that goes against "inexperienced" bit. Thanks.Fated Xtasy wrote:Just look at SW as a whole, The Barsen’thor was subduing Jedi Masters as a Padawan/Jedi Knight. Xanatos, a Being that never went past the title of Padawan, was already a threat to Qui-Gon Jinn. Aurra Sing, again, was another fallen Padawan challenging Jedi Masters left and right. Bariss Offee knocked out a Jedi Killer like Ventress and dueled against Anakin. Hell, even TPM Obi-Wan was fighting evenly with the Council one-on-one.
Prove that Kam's combative abilities don't scale to his extremely high rank within the Order. Because that's what you'd need to counter my scaling.Fated Xtasy wrote:Sticking strictly to examples where Jedi of lower rank take on Jedi of higher rank it genuinely means nothing in the area of combat, while it might mean the Jedi is wiser, more seasoned, and more respected, combat-wise it doesn’t really mean anything.
Not being a scrub and being sub High Council Master tier aren't two mutually exclusive things.Fated Xtasy wrote:I disagree, self-doubt and humility have led to things like Luke stating he can’t beat Brakiss and others. Given Jaden’s performance against an entity like Ragnos and later Mother, he’s not the scrub you’re claiming he is.
Maybe read the literal next line of what I said and you'll see that I did address your main point. My mocking your usage of Jaina is just icing on that cake. But while we're on the topic of Jaina, isn't it funny how she's sub Masters and several knights despite all the hype she had? Hmmm, guess she has something in common with Jaden in terms of that. Generic accolades yet with a lower ranking than one might expect.Fated Xtasy wrote:The objective of the argument is not to draw a direct comparison between Jaina and Jaden. That's a Red Herring on your part, what the true argument is that other powerful Jedi/Sith have similarly expressed doubt in their abilities, likewise overcame them, and defeated their enemies despite their doubts/rank. Nitpicking and pivoting aren’t your strong suits.
Nope. In fact, the accolades section of my first post (the one you're contesting) isn't even Korr's greatest tie to Solusar. Alpha is. Korr's placement of himself and where he ultimately falls aren't that far. He saw himself as not quite ready to be a Master, yet he's low Master tier (not really even that as per the Abyss thing on the end of my last post).Fated Xtasy wrote:There’s a massive disparity between where you hold him and where he ultimately falls. You seem to be building your arguments around statements that infer that Korr is doubtful of his abilities and you’re utilizing them to say that his doubt + refusal of the Rank of master indicates that Korr is below Solusar. This simply isn’t true based on Korr’s performance against Ragnos! Tavion, the Clones, and Mother.
Contrast that with Kam. Who not only rose to the rank of Master and then Battlemaster very fast but was also a High Councilor with a permanent/lifetime seat on the council
- CHAIR scaling:
Sitting in one of the chamber's permanent chairs, Kam Solusar, obviously the loser of the bet, scowled.
-Outcast
Oh my. Sticking to the GAG point, I see. Brave.Fated Xtasy wrote:Being a Master makes no real difference, and you know that. But to your point, Kam didn’t hold the Battlemaster title for long tho, did he? And again none of that formal training helped the Jedi against GAG. But we’ll get to that soon!
Kam can't defeat Luke because even if Kam kills Luke (as is later stated), he'll gain "powers beyond your imagination".Fated Xtasy wrote:So Luke is adamant in his belief that Solusar cannot defeat him in the beginning
Nope, you posted the scan yourself. Luke says this: "If you kill me-unn—I will gain powers beyond your imagination." aka the opposite of what you just said.Fated Xtasy wrote:and then states that “if” Kam doesn’t kill him he’ll become more powerful,
Yes, they mean nothing to him because, he will "gain powers beyond your imagination". To put it another way: Luke's confident that no matter what the outcome, he wins. Not that Kam killing Luke isn't a possible outcome. Which is all I really need.Fated Xtasy wrote:Solusar later states that Luke’s delusions mean nothing and Luke reaffirms his first statement by remarking that Kam’s powers “mean nothing” to him.
They're working handsomely against you.Fated Xtasy wrote:Truly shoddy debatemanship is this what Suspect Insight has come to? Such tactics may serve you well against suspect citizens But I should pity you should you have to face off against any of the Knights of the Round Table.
None of which you've managed to display.Fated Xtasy wrote:Finesse. Artfulness. Economy.
No. My bottom line hasn't changed in the slightest. I'll remind you that 90% of characters in the verse would be instantly pasted if Luke decides to go full kill mode against them. But can most characters in the verse press Luke like Kam did? No, and I've detailed why in my posts. Please pay attention. All I argued is that Kam pressed the holding back Luke in question. Which he did.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re so terribly inconsistent. You’ve already conceded Kam would have died had Luke been trying to kill him.
Fated Xtasy wrote:You’ve also similarly conceded that Luke isn’t “as potent” when he holds back.
And what did I say immediately afterwards?
I wrote:
You seem to be misconstruing my words. So I'll clear up the bottom line for you:
Kam was capable of pressing a Luke whilst said Luke was holding back. But as we see with my examples of both Luke himself and someone of comparable/inferior ability (Yoda), Luke is still a beast whilst holding back and pressing him is no mean feat. I don't need Kam to be Luke level. I just need him to perform impressively against Luke. Which he did.
Yes, all I "need" is for Kam to be giving him a good fight. Even if circumstantially. This case does not necessitate parity.Fated Xtasy wrote:But he’s still “pressing” Luke. And please, spare me the speech about semantics. The truth of the matter is pressing is synonymous with pressure.
Nope. It is true. Kam did press Luke. If he didn't, he wouldn't have Luke audibly straining. I have never ""conceded"" anything of the sort. (Or anything at all really.) Please pay attention.Fated Xtasy wrote:That notion is tremendously generous to Solusar, Because it is simply not true and which is something you yourself have already conceded to.
First off, Solusar had to deal with greater numbers attacking all at once. If that was all, maybe your point might have some validity to it. Unfortunately however, you fail to understand the circumstances. Allow me to list em out.Fated Xtasy wrote:Like the Dark Side Adepts? Those “fodder” had mastered Telekinesis, Lightning, Drain, and Force Destruction. But I’m glad you mention fodder, let’s revisit DE, shall we?
--
Curious that your boy goes from “pressing” Luke to losing to some fodder adepts. Which really destroys your whole “Kam gave Luke a good fight guys!”
For one, the opponents Solusar faced were far superior to the Disciples of Ragnos. These adepts were the most powerful dark side users in the Empire bar Palpatine.
- Best of the Empire:
--
-Dark Empire Handbook
-Dark Empire Sourcebook
They were superior to the Shadow Guards, who were able to press Failen Marek in sabers.
- Adepts > Shadow Guard:
None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.
-Starships and Vehicles Collection #63
Compare the Empire's most powerful dark siders to dudes who were made artificially force sensitive. It's not exactly an anti feat for Solusar to be overpowered by large numbers of the former at once. Again, Quality over quantity. Kam faced far greater opponents and as we all know, fodders put together can pose a threat/put up a fight to more powerful force users. Just look at Caedus' fight with Katarn and friends.
- Quantity:
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.
-LOTF Fury
Now I can hear you asking already: "But didn't Jaden defeat large quantities at once?" Sure, he did. But it's against objectively inferior foes. And as I've pointed out, he had advantages like energy shields detailed in my last post.
But wait! There's more!
We all know Vjun is a potent Dark Side nexus. It's impressive for both Kam and Jaden to have faced opponents there. However, it was a harder fight for Kam given his past. Mans literally trained in the castle of the man who murdered his father. Hell, Kam's father is outright mentioned in Empire's End during this scene.
- Ded Dad:
-Empire's End
Plus, Solusar, just one comic issue earlier, stomped the Executor Xecr Nist (aka the dude who's the top dog of the Dark Side elite). So it's laughable that you'd try to scale Kam below Nist's inferiors.
- Nist getting stomped:
There is a far better angle you could have taken with the Vjun feat. One that would have worked far better than the route you attempted.... but I'll let you figure that one out.
That is ultimately what your post amounted to. A desperate plea for quantity over quality.Fated Xtasy wrote:If that’s the only thing you got from what I posted then I’m very disappointed.
Ah yes. Alora. The person who can't even physically reach a force user with drained reserves (as per the scans you've posted) is sooooo potent.Fated Xtasy wrote:Because Korr is single-handedly dismantling an entire Imperial Installation filled with Stormtroopers, Specops(HazardTroopers, Cloaked Snipers, etc), and Dark Jedi all while Alora is using Dun Moch on him from afar yet despite that Tavion’s “prized” apprentice is no match for Jaden despite Alora having trained “furiously” and using a brand new style in which she is described as being “extremely deadly” with. By being Alora’s second in command/apprentice she is >The Kothos Twin / Reborn Jedi/ Cultists which means she is the strongest within a group of being artificially empowered by nexus.
I'm afraid none of this amounts to anything. Y'know... superiority to barely force sensitives, energy shields, yada yada. You get the picture. Not gonna bother repeating myself in turn to you repeating yourself.
If you read the scans I posted, you'll know this is wrong. The shield Jaden had on was stated to "absorb all energy-based attack damage". Fun fact, lightsabers and blasters are energy based weaponry. The game itself is spelling this out to you. In the game, shields resist lightsaber blows as well. Not sure how you're misunderstanding. Allow me to re post the scan. I even highlighted the important part for you:Fated Xtasy wrote:When it comes to shields+ammo We know from the text that the shields aren’t capable of resisting something stronger than a blaster and after 50 blaster bolts the shield dissipates. I’ll address this in greater detail later.
- Jedi Academy Manual:
-Jedi Academy Manual
You've proven my point. Jaden in these missions has time to sit back and heal. Which means it's not really comparable to any of Kam's missions because Solusar never had such a luxary.Fated Xtasy wrote:However as far as healing himself goes that would be incorrect as the guide purposely informs the player of when they should heal themselves.
To prove this, you used the below quote from KOTOR:Fated Xtasy wrote:This is pure cope and a weak argument. Even if that were the case, unfortunately, energy shields have a bit of an issue and wouldn’t last quite long when Korr’s moving down as many troopers as he could nor does it stand up to something more powerful than a blasterbolt like, say, a lightsaber.
When equipped and activated, these items project an energy shield around the wearer. The small power source can burn out when repeatedly stressed, requiring replacement of the entire unit.
KOTOR shields are not the same model, type, or same anything as the ones we see in Jedi Academy. For one, KOTOR shields come in arm band form, whereas the JA one is a belt (highlighted in yellow). Plus, as the quote itself says, once the KOTOR shields are depleted, you have to replace the entire thing. Contrast that with JA ones, which just need to be recharged with power converters or shield pickups (highlighted in green)
- Jedi Outcast Strategy Guide:
-Jedi Outcast Strategy Guide
Fated Xtasy wrote:Lmao you are a card. You’re own “proof” literally states that the shield could only really work against blasters, fifty bolts to be exact, and is virtually useless against anything else meaning that no, his shield wouldn’t come into play in any of his duels in JA nor does it bog down his feats. Try again.
Wrong once again.
1: It can take 50 full power bolts. It's designed for battlefield combat. Combat in which blasters are set to their highest power. (highlighted in blue) They won't be set to their highest level within indoor, somewhat closed spaces that Korr operated in.
2: Not once in any of my scans is the notion of them not working against sabers presented. Quite the contrary, it's emphasized that it'll absorb or deflect any energy based attacks. Fun fact, lightsabers are energy based. (Highlighted in red)
- NEG to Weapons and Technology:
-NEG to Weapons and Technology
And to further hammer the point home, here's an energy shield tanking a lightsaber strike:
Also you've failed to account for the fact that there are large amounts of shield recharges and power charging stations within every mission in JA. So the advantages Jaden had are even more apparent. And his feats are bogged down further.
The point was that Jaden won't have access to the advantages he did within the game in our hypothetical fight. So not only are his feats bogged down, one of the biggest advantages and contributors to his feats within the game will not be a factor in this match. Once again: Pay attention, please.Fated Xtasy wrote:So then the point of this was…..none. You reek of desperation bud.
Yup. Solusar stomped two of the top dogs of the DSE yet is sub random adepts. Totally no contradiction there. It pains me to see you going this route. You threw away a perfect opportunity.Fated Xtasy wrote:Right the same Kam that allegedly pressed (which he didn't) Luke got his tail handed to him by the random adepts, which only reinforces Luke's statements regarding Kam's inexperience and Kam's own admission to lacking control. This is the Kam you think “pressed” Luke? The Kam that is potent that even as a newb he destroys Jaden? Surely you can do better, rng? Because it seems to me that poor Kam can’t even handle some fodder adepts.
Gantoris almost killed Luke multiple times in their fight. Not a bad look to be below him.Fated Xtasy wrote:It does when you’re implying that Solusar had a power boost and is pressuring Luke as a noob. But almost right after his power “boost” Kam’s playing second fiddle to Gant, he’s inexperienced in Luke’s eyes and losing to random adepts.
And Kam stomped their leader and the best among them.Fated Xtasy wrote:Hell, before you even try to wank them recall that even Jem's brother, who is literally barely trained, is matching these adepts blow for blow and occasionally killing them.
None of the scans you've provided here do anything against my argument. Kam didn't wanna spar with Corran early on because he was worried that he would kill Horn. So no. Lack of control is not a a detriment to a character's power level. Explicitly not in this case since Kam's lack of control would mean he might accidentally kill Corran, who is about on par with a Mara that's better than MOTS Mara.Fated Xtasy wrote:Control is fundamental to a Jedi.
Nope. It only applies to Solusar as of 11 ABY. I'll repeat myself: This man only used a saber to kill, injure, and maim up until that point. If he fights Corran, he'd likely do one of those to Horn and that's not what he wants. As he trains more, he'll overcome that initial lack of control. And he does lol. He rather handily defeated Corran in their spar in Union after all:Fated Xtasy wrote:While your argument could apply to DE Solusar, here it doesn’t. Because what Kam is admitting to is a lack of control over himself which ties into Luke’s comment about Solusar being inexperienced
- Union:
-Union
Nope. If anything, it's better power levels wise. He'll go all out.Fated Xtasy wrote:Luke’s dismissive attitude was in reference to their duel on Nespis. His lack of control actually is a detriment
Uhhhhhhhh. Do you remember how Luke reacted when his wife died? Hell, forget that. In the Swarm War, he went from struggling with Lomi Plo to curbstomping her. Wanna know why? It's because in the latter scenario, he wasn't worried about his wife.Fated Xtasy wrote:His lack of control actually is a detriment that follows him even up to his later years, seeing as he’s unable to control himself whenever Tionne got shot up.
People often lose control when loved ones are threatened or dying. Anakin, Luke, the list goes on. You act as if most other characters in the verse wouldn't get heated like Kam did when there's examples of far better Jedi folding worse than he did. That "lack of control" that you can't seem to stop foaming at only applies at that one scene. Won't play a factor in a hypothetical fight against Kam and Jaden.
Jaden has no such feats. On the contrary, he loses badly to a clone who at best is Solusar's approximate.Fated Xtasy wrote:Like I said before. Rank means nothing when we have Jedi like Obi beating almost the entirety of the Jedi Council
Refer to the above points.Fated Xtasy wrote:Again, you’ve conceded that Luke wasn’t trying/ was holding back. If you believe that a Solusar that got disarmed by three mooks means he’s even remotely close to Luke’s level then you're deluding yourself bud.
And even when not giving it his all, Luke is capable of some pretty amazing feats. Which is the point of the Yoda and Luke examples. Have you been paying attention?Fated Xtasy wrote:That’s not the point, the point is if Luke, per his statement, believes that the “force led” him to Solusar because there is “still good” in Solusar then clearly he isn’t trying to kill Kam/give it his all
Well he wasn't able to do the latter given that he was audibly strained. So no, Kam's attacks weren't negligible. Which, again, is all I need lol. So thanks for that.Fated Xtasy wrote:We also know that Solusar Was trying to kill while Luke was attempting to redeem him, meaning that Luke would logically have to both hold back enough that he doesn’t harm Kam Solusar while simultaneously making sure Kam’s offense is essentially rendered negligible.
- Chris Cortosis
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
July 15th 2022, 11:00 pm
You say this and then point to a completely different example. They're not the same kind of spar. In Yoda's example, he wants them to go all out in order to demonstrate to everyone his vast superiority. Now obviously they're not in kill mode but neither is he. If he's so far above them in non kill mode, I don't see why the gap would be any different if not bigger if both sides were in kill mode.Fated Xtasy wrote:Bruh, in those examples Luke/Yoda are engaging in more a dance than a duel.
- Shadow Hunter:
- "Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.
-Shadow Hunter
Once again, your argument helps me. If the spars were "skill testing", then Luke's fight with Solusar is him literally defending his own life. And he's still getting pressed/winded. No matter how you slice it, you're obviously gonna take defending your life more seriously than a martial arts spar.Fated Xtasy wrote:Since the Jedi Grandmasters are sparring their respective opponents, they’re not looking to kill, merely test each other and the like, engaging in “Jedi Play.” those scenarios are different from the one involving Solusar.
You said Luke was dismissive of Solusar, I sent scans of Luke saying the order might not even work/start properly/Luke wouldn't know what to do if they lost Kam. Add to that the fact that he laid the foundation for the order's saber skills and it paints a very clear picture of how serious Kam is. Luke never has and never will think Kam means nothing or is fodder.Fated Xtasy wrote:You misunderstand, I’m not saying Kam means nothing in this sense, I mean that in that duel, Luke was “breaking character” by going as far as saying “you cannot defeat me.” and “your dark side powers mean nothing to me". Sure, in the grand narrative of DE Kam was important to the story, but that means little in a versus series and thus isn’t as impressive as you’re attempting to make it seem
When did I try to wank non force sensitive opinions prior to the Mothma example. (And even then, it was to show that Jaden isn't some second coming you make him out to be.)Fated Xtasy wrote:Only when it helps the agenda, amirite?
And? Do you think Solusar would be given such a high rank in the New Republic if Luke didn't vouch for him heavily? If he didn't believe the same he did for Jaden if not better? Jaden gets an attaboy from an NR General. Kam gets promoted to General by the Chief of State. One's way more impressive.Fated Xtasy wrote:I’ll admit that’s great for Kam, but my suggestion with Wedge is that Luke is going out of his way to praise Jaden to General Antilles, so Luke holds Jaden in high esteem. Moreover, Jaden spearheaded the assault on a Palpatine-level threat like Ragnos, which obviously indicates that Luke /Katarn thought highly of Korr’s skillset, but I digress.
Also, Luke isn't going "out of his way" to praise Jaden either. What he says amounts to "you're in good hands, Wedge. Jaden's got this."
- Wedge:
-Jedi Academy
Simply put, this argument of yours isn't "proof" that Jaden is better. It's reaching.
Nice reaching but that's not what happened. He didn't feel the event as it happened. He only felt it as Jaden started talking. For all Luke knew up until he saw Jaden on the holo, Korr was dead.Fated Xtasy wrote:If that’s the case why are you so inclined to minimize the great change in Jaden that was felt across the galaxy by Luke?
- Holo:
- In time, Grand Master Skywalker's soft but commanding voice, disembodied and ghostly, reached across the light-years. "Jaden. We had begun to worry. Are you all right?"
"I am now, Master Skywalker."
"I can feel that, Jaden."
-Riptide
This isn't some Exar Kun wave felt across the galaxy. It's normal force sense at play. People can feel each other's emotions in the Force through the holo.
Jaden deciding not to give into temptation with the lightning isn't noted to boost him so idk why I should assume it does. Plus it was only temptation. He did not fall. The fall is often attributed as being necessary for the Redemption amp:Fated Xtasy wrote:Especially when Jaden literally rejected the dark-side by not utilizing Force Lightning against Alpha? Korr notes that his connection to the Force is saturated by something else
- Book of Sith:
-Book of Sith
Whereas Kam had his light smothered and then embraced the full light of the light side, and has been stated to grow more powerful for it, Jaden just had a momentary temptation that he backed away from.
The adulterated part is more hints towards his potential clone origin. Not sure how this applies in the slightest here.Fated Xtasy wrote:“the same way his own signature was that of a light-side user adulterated with… something else.”
Jaden can draw on the Force just fine in CC. Never once is a hindrance to draw on power referenced (quite the contrary as I've pointed out). Not IU or OOU. Jaden never fell to the dark side like Kam did. So naturally he can't have the redemption boost that comes with falling. You're making false equivalencies here.Fated Xtasy wrote:Your double standards are showing, Jaden's clearly in the same situation where something is hindering him, and his connection causing it to become poorer in quality. Korr manages to overcome this and you say "it's just emotion." but Kam does it and it's a power boost? That's some wonky logic right there.
And? It was "impossible odds" for Luke and Kam even with the Ysanna helping and would have been worse without. I don't see how this changes my bottom line. If you paid attention to my first post, it's clear that the whole idea was that Solusar was able to oneshot an amped DSE member whilst tired after the fight. Which is better than the needless fluff you posted about Jaden defeating barely force sensitive disciples of Ragnos with an energy shield that can tank hits for him. My dude oneshot one of the Empire's best Dark Jedi whilst tired. Your guy... defeated Alora who happens to be better than barely force sensitive fodder.Fated Xtasy wrote:Quotes support that it was largely due to the Ysanna that the Imps were bested, so much for that argument.
Not once did I imply that. Because I don't need him to solo the entire Imperial force. It's not detrimental to my argument. But to address this, Kam fought better opponents (DS amped stormies vs vanilla stormies, Empire's best Dark Jedi vs Barely force sensitive fodder, yada yada) without any advantages like shields.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re treating it like it was just Kam who was fighting the Dark troopers lmao my example shows that Jaden was taking on fierce resistance by himself as opposed to having tremendous assistance from the Ysann and Luke.
If you paid attention, you would know that the fight against the stormies on Ossus is not what makes that feat impressive. It's him oneshotting one of the Empire's best Dark Jedi immediately afterwards. I never implied that Kam soloed the Imperials. Quite the contrary in fact:Fated Xtasy wrote:Interesting diction, you’re so adept at logical fallacies, specifically the strawman and false dilemma type. Our debate pertains to Kam & Jaden, not Luke & Kam & Jaden. Your points regarding DE Kam have largely revolved around Kam’s duel with Luke and his battle with the DS troopers but you’re acting as if Kam was the sole player on that field, which he wasn’t.
I wrote:
Nope. You've directly compared the odds. You've never made any distinction. And you've done a poor job regardless since it's all apples to oranges.Fated Xtasy wrote:my arguments are centered on drawing comparisons to Kam’s feats that showcase that Jaden was achieving similar results to Solusar but without the added benefit of having Skywalker + a small army around thus implying that Jaden is superior to Solusar as he had no assistance from a Jedi as powerful as Skywalker except on the first half of Vjun whereKorr was accompanied by Katarn.
Fated Xtasy wrote:
When you're arguing odds, it's impossible to divorce Luke from the Ossus part of the equation. If he wasn't there, sure Kam would fail but literally almost everyone else in the verse would be written to fail there too. You attempted to counter the odds part of my argument even though it wasn't the bottom line.
All I needed was for Kam to have the capability of oneshotting a DSE whilst tired. And you have not responded to that meaningfully. You've only managed to make Quantity > Quality type arguments that ultimately mean nothing.
As I've said, you can't really divorce Luke from the equation. Since it's seen as impossible for him, Kam, and the Ysanna. Plus the very fact that you have "odds of Ossus" in your scaling chain implies that Jaden's missions were far worse than the Ossus mission overall (Luke included). At any rate, if we factor in Luke to your attempted scaling chain, we'd get:Fated Xtasy wrote:So to correct you, what I am proposing is Jaden Korr>Odds of Bast/Other Missions>Odds of Ossus>KAM.
Jaden Korr > Odds of Bast/Other Missions > Odds of Ossus < KAM+Luke
So please don't try to weasel your way out of a bad claim that you did make.
The scepter took all the power in the various nexuses for Ragnos. I don't know why you're assuming any relevant portion of that was given to individual cultists. Tavion wanted to resurrect Ragnos. Wouldn't she by that logic only give the non force sensitives the bare minimum of force power? Hence me calling them barely force sensitive.Fated Xtasy wrote:The Cultists were empowered by a Scepter capable of storing Nexus’ from Byss, Dagobah, Bespin, Yavin’s Temples, Hoth, and the like. Given how those nexus’ were able to resurrect a Palpatine-level being, it stands to reason that they also heavily empowered the Cultists
They only had basic powers. TK and the like. Hell the weaker ones are downright incapable of even casting lightning. Literally Bane era level trash. As for the more powerful ones, they're slightly better than the former. Sure, they can use lightning but that's not indicative of "mastery". Quinlan Vos with amnesia was able to cast lightning effortlessly and with no training.Fated Xtasy wrote:hell with no little to no training the Cultist had mastered various aspects of the Force
- Vos:
Prove that the Reborn who joined Tavion were given amps by the scepter. And if they did, it's possible they're the ones who can use lightning and I've already addressed why that means nothing.Fated Xtasy wrote:and the Reborn had been enhanced by the Valley of the Jedi that had the capacity to give Katarn enough strength to match a being capable of threatening JA Luke. The capabilities of Jaden’s foes can be quantified more than some random one-off DS bucket heads my guy.
The Disciples are poor quality fodder. Whereas Solusar was able to best a large amount of DS amped stormies and defeat the Empire's best Dark Jedi. Often in stomps or oneshots.
Oh my... You have made a serious misstep.Fated Xtasy wrote:Ben vs Rontos:
Lets take a glance at your scan, shall we?Fated Xtasy wrote:The implication here is that younglings have made Luke budge, activate his saber, and put in the effort.
- You've ignored a rather important word:
- Luke shook his head. “Jacen can’t protect you all the time, and he’s not training you. I’ve sparred Rontos who are better.”
Despite the affront—Rontos were eight-to ten-year-old academy students—Ben remained surprisingly calm. “I’m not sure I believe that. I’m pretty sure I’m better than any kid who’s still working with a training prod.”
“Then prove it,” Luke said. “You don’t even have to make me ignite my lightsaber. Just make me move my feet.”
-Tempest
Notice the word I've underlined? Yeah....
Have you really gotten so desperate you're trying to take exaggerated trash talk literally?
Based on Luke's taunt/trash talk, younglings can do better than Kam..... despite us knowing full well that that isn't the case. Are we really at the point where we take blatant hyperbole literally?Fated Xtasy wrote:Let me emphasize that I’m NOT saying Youngling>Kam. What I am saying is that based on your concessions Kam was a noob, had no real formal training, and had the “most stunted growth.” It’s not far-fetched to compare Kam(who was also inexperienced, and lacked control) to a youngling who is capable of doing better than Ben(i.e doing all the things Ben couldn't do.)
Anyway, as per the CE3, we know full well that Kam did what few people could.
You do know the Luke vs Ben stuff you tried to use was a spar, too right? It's mentioned in the same book as the scan you tried to use.Fated Xtasy wrote:Because they're sparring, engaged in the best form of "Jedi Play." of course he's not going to be tuckered out
- Spar:
- It was the moment Mara had been dreaming of-and dreading-for years, the first time father and son entered the Jedi Temple Sparring Arena with live blades.
-Tempest
Also regarding the spar thing, refer back to what I said about how it's more impressive for Kam to get Luke audibly exerting himself in an actual fight than a spar.
As per what? Your headcanon? Because the audio drama has Kam making Luke grunt with effort.Fated Xtasy wrote:Which Kam did not do lol.
Okay so you're like what? 25? Would you say current you is better than you as of 20 years ago? I would really hope so.Fated Xtasy wrote:How can we quantify it though? Kam goes to become a battlemaster, great, he joins the council, great, he spars against the Jedi he helped train, great, and then... he nearly dies to snipers? Not so great
Same logic applies here. There is literally zero reason for Kam not to be way above his DE self. There is a 30+ year gap. "We don't see him do much" is not an indicator that he didn't grow consistently in those 30+ years. You cannot say gaps are unquantifiable and then act as if Riptide Jaden is lightyears above his CC iteration when that was clearly not necessitated in the text.
Also I'll repeat myself on the GAG thing. The galaxy best trained soldiers had to cheapshot him. That's how scared they were.
You keep throwing around "mastered heir abilities" as if it means something. It really doesn't. Big deal, they can use basic force powers. Why does that mean anything?Fated Xtasy wrote:The issue there is the community existed for years, whereas Luuke was, per your statement, less than a year old, as such the Clones had more time to master the abilities already at their disposal and hone their skill than their Skywalker counter-part this would undoubtedly grant them greater mastery than their less-refined clone-kin.
Anyway, here's another wrench in your attempted scaling:
- Slow:
- "… thirty-three. The experiment has been an unqualified success. We retarded the maturation process as much as possible to ensure an appropriate rate of growth, but the subjects still grew to maturity much more rapidly than our models predicted. Memory imprinting will begin soon, though the subjects appear to have been born with extant knowledge of their Force sensitivity. All have exhibited mastery of basic and moderately advanced Force techniques. Testing reveals an extraordinarily high midi-chlorian count in all subjects. Grand Admiral Thrawn has been apprised of the results."
-Crosscurrent
Yeah... their growth rate was slowed as much as possible. So we can't even take for granted that the clones are ~ their templates since the scientists lowered their growth rate. It is stated that they grew more rapidly than they were expecting but it's not such that it's beyond their templates. Just above the low rate the doctors wanted.
So whereas Luuke's rate was accelerated and allowed him to challenge Luke, the Community's rates were slowed down. Meaning they had more or less normal growth. In a poor environment. And didn't learn anything much either. There is no good faith way to put them above their templates lol.
It does not support it and it is a defining feature of the argument you tried to make. You argued that both them mastering basic abilities fast and "high midichlorians" is basis for them being > their templates.Fated Xtasy wrote:It’s not the defining feature in the argument, but it does support it.
And as I've said, the only reason they were able to do the former was because they were born with knowledge of their force sensitivity. Something that most force sensitives don't have. You have thus far provided zero proof for the Community's potential being above their templates.
They "mastered several force abilities" only due to them being born with knowledge of their force sensitivity. Not raw power. Plus, they only "mastered" the basics. Like TK and the like. It means literally nothing and is not basis for them scaling to or above their templates.Fated Xtasy wrote:Well, we got like 7 Bucky’s and a single Captain America, technically. That said, the issue is despite their madness they were still breakthrough experiments that were largely defined by their master of several force abilities, and high midi-count thus while narratively they are considered failures overall the scientists achieved what they sought to do with some… dire consequences.
Show me any citation saying they have more midichlorians than their templates. I'll give you a hint: There is no evidence for that. Also the whole "continued to grow" thing ties their power with their anger at being confined. That more or less disappears once they kill all the scientists. Also this is very early on. And since you've provided zero proof that the clones are > or ~ their templates, for all we know, they're still fodder with said power growth since everything we see is from the perspective of the scientists.Fated Xtasy wrote:High Midi-count =higher potential= higher force reserve = better augmentation. Furthermore, recall that the Clones mastered their abilities right after they were created and brought together, more importantly their power “continued to grow” meaning that their mastery didn’t just stop it kept going, and going.
"... their hostility toward their confinement is growing, as is their power.”
-Crosscurrent
It's specifically because of what they're trying to achieve that they'd say the midichlorians are extremely high compared to normal beings as opposed to their templates:Fated Xtasy wrote:Given that the scientists had access to DNA of their templates + Palpatine it stands to reason that they would have compared the data between Clone and Template+Palpatine as opposed to comparing data between Clone and a normal sentient being, that just wouldn’t make sense given what they’re trying to achieve.
As I've explained (and you failed to counter), cloning force users is a taboo. The scientists don't even know if it's worked before. They marvel at its success after countless failures. Furthermore, them having the DNA of the OGs doesn't mean they know the midichlorian count of the OGs. There is simply no evidence for that.
Nothing necessitates that they have more midichlorians than the templates. The only evidence you've thus far used is blatantly reaching. And a bad faith reading of the text. There is actually evidence against your reaching case but more on that later.Fated Xtasy wrote:We all know the higher the midi-count the higher the potential because of Anakin bro. You don’t get to decide what they mean or don’t. The implications are based on their statements of continued growth, and mastery, and they can be defined as being stronger than their counterparts, especially when, as I've stated before, they seemingly had access to DNA samples from the templates.
This is a complete non argument and means nothing.Fated Xtasy wrote:He wouldn’t, there’s a reason we don’t get an answer to the question “is Jaden a clone?’ he likes to keep things open to interpretation
What part of my bottom line has changed? Nothing. Jaden still dies to Alpha and by extension, Kam.Fated Xtasy wrote:Way to backpedal my guy
And they were revealed to be neither ultimately.Fated Xtasy wrote:The issue is that these were the breakthrough Force users and that they were, for the longest time, considered a success.
There is no equivalency here. One is being empowered directly by him. The other is a result of taking only select aspects and likely diluting the source in the process. Not anything near his potential. It's far more diluted. And no, the DS troopers were considered the best even without his amp. The amp's just a cherry on top.Fated Xtasy wrote:We saw how those individuals, the DS troopers were considered the best of the best just by being empowered by Sheev, these clones have his DNA surging through them.
It's a heavily processed version that combines bits and pieces. Hell, they needed to do some mad adjustments before even having something usable. This is not pure template power with Palps added on top. It's aspects of both sides. So you can't really use it to scale the community above the templates.Fated Xtasy wrote:Even though the tissue they used is a variable it’s still a combination of Palpatine DNA and Jaden/Mara/Lumiya/Kam/Katarn DNA which all have a great deal of potential.
Not gonna bother repeating myself. If your best evidence for power levels comes from the limited POVs of scientists and relies only on that, then you know your case is flawed.Fated Xtasy wrote:While you’re right in saying that X% Jedi DNA + Y% Palpatine Dna = ? statements like the one involving midi-chlorians support the idea that the answer to X+ Y = Something exponential given their rapid mastery and ever-increasing power.
"Information" that amounts to "look how they mastered abilities like TK whilst they had an existing knowledge of their force sensitivity" and "they're said to have a lot of midichlorians" and nothing moreFated Xtasy wrote:There is information, as presented in a prior post that showcases their rapid growth+mastery especially given the inclusion of Palpatine DNA.
If the word "prime" is enough for you to scale him above the rest, then by that logic, Alpha>the rest because his name is Alpha. Prime means nothing.Fated Xtasy wrote:That doesn’t answer the quest of why the One Sith refer to Soldier as the Prime
I've addressed how that's not a power levels thing and instead potentially a hax thing. Mara has greater potential than Jaden. It would stand to reason that her clone does too. Plus it's never noted that his resisting the void comes from power levels. So I see no reason to assume it outright.Fated Xtasy wrote:nor does even come close to explaining just how Soldier was able to resist Nyss’ Force Suppression while the others couldn’t.
Supremacy over Two-Blade means nothing against Alpha. You need to provide evidence as to why that means anything. As for Runner, you need to provide evidence of him being Runner's superior. Furthermore, if you wanna go by your scaling of Jaden ~ Soldier > Runner, That'd necessitate Jaden ~ Soldier > Runner > > Kyle by your logic. And you said earlier that you aren't arguing Jaden > Kyle.Fated Xtasy wrote:This is just cope, Soldier is there better in every way, body, mind, and potential. We saw how he smacked that clone two-blade and essentially had Runner submitting to him on most occasions.
Fated Xtasy wrote:
Refer back to what I said about the names. But if you wanna use him being called "Prime", fine. But if we use that logic, then Alpha is still above everyone since his name is Alpha. Soldier may be the prime in that he's not a psychopath. But Alpha's better because to be Alpha means to be on top.Fated Xtasy wrote:It means nothing because you say so? Consider that the third Jaden clone’s name is quite literal, the iteration. Why would it be any different for Soldier? Even if it was “just a codename.” it still implies that they think of him of the Prime of the clones
But for more confirmation, Pablo Hidalgo also agrees on Soldier's "supremacy" being in the fact that he doesn't have the clone madness or physical problems that afflict the other clones. He notes only that Soldier is the most able bodied and nothing else. That's the whole intent. The whole idea is for him to be the most normal. Not most powerful.
- Pablo:
-Essential Reader's Companion
Yes. Hunter, a Mara clone, with greater potential and power than Jaden, (and by extension Soldier as per clones~templates in potential) is still depowered by Nyss' void. Pointing to the fact that it's not because of power levels that Nyss' void didn't work with Soldier.Fated Xtasy wrote:So was the Katarn clone and even Wrrylock. You can’t really fault The Mara-Clone when being disconnected from the force effectively nullifies both lightsabers and their abilities.
And that means literally nothing. Remember, Mara could have become a greater student than even Kyp. Who you yourself implied has more potential than Jaden:Fated Xtasy wrote:Which is great and all but MOTS Mara, and all iterations before MOTS, is sitting right below Jaden per Katarn.
Fated Xtasy wrote:
So no. Mara isn't below Jaden by any stretch of the imagination.
You have yet to provide any reasoning outside the quotes I debunked. So no. Your point doesn't stand.Fated Xtasy wrote:At this point we're arguing semantics, my point stands, Soldier is the Prime of the Clones.
Anyway, now's a good a time as any. As promised, here's a look at just how great the community is in force potential:
In the ending of Crosscurrent, the community flew past an explosion of Lignan crystals. These crystals enhance one's dark side powers. It empowered the entire community. But also ramped up their clone related illness.
- Ligma:
--The CloakShape fighter's engines fired and Khedryn and Jaden watched it accelerate skyward, its form a black silhouette against the still-glowing sky.
"It is heading right into the debris," Khedryn said. "What are they doing?"
Jaden understood exactly what they were doing. They were taking in the Lignan's power.
-Crosscurrent
He knelt before the case that contained the hypos. Thirty doses of the meds remained. They had expected the doses to last them weeks, maybe longer, but whatever they'd flown through had exacted a price for their increased connection to the Force-it had accelerated their illness. Presumably it would also speed the onset of the madness that inevitably came with the sickness.
-Riptide
So all the clones in Riptide are > Their Crosscurrent iterations due to the LIgnan amp.
What does this mean? The Soldier who fought on par with Jaden isn't base Soldier. He needed the Lignan amp to be ~ Jaden. Which means that his and the community's potential is below their templates. And of course, that'd extend to Alpha and Kam. To put it another way:
Kam > Alpha > > PTSD Jaden < Riptide Jaden ~ Lignan Soldier > Soldier
Now of course, as I detailed in my first post, Jaden will not only have to deal with the Force power that kicked his ass in the Alpha fight, he'll have to deal with Kam's superior skill and finesse.
So whether we go with the above chain or the chain I introduced in my first post, it's still not looking good for Jaden.
How so? Jaden still gets humiliated by Solusar. The only thing to dispute is how badly it happens.Fated Xtasy wrote:Maybe you should quit being so generous? You’ve already “generously” conceded that Jaden was weaker in crosscurrent, now you’re backpedaling!
As per my first chain, Jaden has to deal with Alpha power but with more finesse.
As per my alternative second chain, Jaden has to deal with Alpha ++ power but with more finesse.
Pick your poison. Because thus far, you have zero evidence to the community having more potential. Whereas I have precedence that force using clones are ~ their templates in potential AND the fact that Soldier needed a Lignan amp to match Jaden.
You keep saying ESB as if it means something. You do know Luke put up a hell of a fight, right? Nigh equals with Vader. There nothing from GL that implies his mindset was in a bad place.Fated Xtasy wrote:Again given how his mental state goes from doubtful to hopeful and the importance of a Jedi’s mindset(see Luke in ESB)
- ESB:
- Uh, so that it is a very big fight, and, uh, Luke, now, has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it's a slightly one-sided sword fight where, uh, Vader has the advantage over him.
-George Lucas, "The Empire Strikes Back" Director's Commentary
Where are you getting me not being sure about this point from? I've made it rather clear since my first post that Jaden is sub Alpha no matter what. In fact, I clarified that in my second post as well.Fated Xtasy wrote:we can safely assume that there’s a difference between Crosscurrent Jaden and Riptide! Jaden. You've already agreed to it and now you're not exactly sure? Sus my guy.
I wrote:
You've provided zero evidence that he wasn't able to draw on the Force in Crosscurrent. So therefore, there isn't a massive difference between the two iterations combatively. Even in my most generous estimations.
Jaden couldn't throw rocks with that level of force. Lifting something big is one thing. Throwing it at speeds fast enough to down TIEs is another. In fact, even in the exaggerated game medium, Jaden needed to use a turbolaser turret to bring down a TIE. Implication is that he can't throw rocks with the required force.Fated Xtasy wrote:LOL This isn’t TFU, but okay. In any case, Kam’s boulder feat is impressive, but consider Korr was tossing boulders and pillars four times his size this isn't beyond Jaden. Again, Korr's held back the combined might of Soldier, and Runner, the clones of two very powerful Jedi. He's not going to buckle under Solusar when he's holding back two Master level combatants.
As for his infamous holding off force pushes... It really isn't consequential against Kam so I see no reason to bother addressing it.
You didn't really address my counter whatsoever. So I'll take it that you don't have a proper point here. Anyway, look at Kam's fight with Corran in Union. Bam. There's another example of him using TK within combat. I don't know what you hoped to achieve with this argument but the results are pretty sad.Fated Xtasy wrote:Against non-force sensitives, impressive. Cut to him getting choked by Sedriss
The fall did that. Not the push itself.Fated Xtasy wrote:It didn’t take much to take him down beyond a single push.
- Stair:
- The clone's wild, bloodshot eyes widened when he saw Jaden. Jaden took advantage of the clone's surprise. He drew on the Force, extended a hand, and struck the clone with a blast of concussive energy so strong it blew the clone back down the stairs and drove him into the floor. The clone lay there, dazed.
-Riptide
So we have Jaden sucker punching someone and the fall down the stairs decommissioning said person momentarily. And you read that as Jaden "casually dismissing" him... Nice. Totally doesn't smack of reaching. Totes.
No. We can't. Since you have yet to prove that Jaden was unable to draw on the Force or that he has a harder time doing so. I've provided direct proof of him using the Force just fine. You have not proved that he is stomp gaps below his normal self.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’ve also already conceded he was weaker, so we can move on.
Because Jaden didn't have a redemption nor the amp that comes with it. Whereas Kam explicitly did and was stated by Luke to actually be given more power. Please try to pay attention.Fated Xtasy wrote:But I find it funny how you can see a clear change in a person's mental state that ties into their combative mindset and say "naw, that's negligible." but look at Kam's feat and say "yeah, he's way stronger."
Say it with me now: As per what? Your headcanon?Fated Xtasy wrote:Nah, considering Jaden’s having moments where lightning is spewing from his hands without him calling it forth, I think it’s less mindset related and more to do with the connection.
You also haven't really addressed the heart of the issue, either. He's literally stated to be "sinking into the calm of the Force"
- Calm:
- Jaden prepared himself, sank into the calm of the Force.
-Crosscurrent
That is not how someone who can't properly draw on its power is described. Nowhere else is a lessened connection mentioned outside of the vision. He was practically at his A game in the fight and still lost hard. Your force lightning point doesn't really change the fact that he was able to use the Force just fine. Just with a couple extra discharges of lightning.
This is not a refutation of my argument and as such I'll assume you can't counter.Fated Xtasy wrote:You should read the book again, at this point I can’t tell if you just really want the W or just didn’t read it.
Please show me evidence of him being unable to draw on the Force as he should. As that is what you need.Fated Xtasy wrote:No, he is, no force user with a strong connection is going to be having spurts of lightning shooting from their hands if they’re fully in control. Keep trying tho!
In a sense, Jaden's only problem was internal turmoil and discipline. While that may sound bad, that is not present in his fight with Alpha. As he's able to "sink into the calm of the Force". (AKA, he can draw on it just fine). Only once he got beaten and was at Alpha's mercy did his Jedi control break and force lightning ensue. Meaning he was just fine during the fight and only after it did anything crack.
But furthermore, lets look at it like this: Your argument is that he's weaker in the force or unable to draw on it (you said his connection is "disrupted"). And yet..... he outputs the Force in excess with lightning? You see the problem there, right? Can't draw on the Force, yet is drawing on it in excess? Not how it works.
By all means: Prove that it's a meaningful "advantage". Because that is what you need. Alpha and Savage won because of their force power and dueling skill. Not muscles. Swoleness arguments get you nowhere. And even if by some miracle they did... Solusar is a master martial artist whereas Alpha was a self taught goon. So the swoleness advantage is undercut by skill.Fated Xtasy wrote:You’re really picking and choosing here huh? Adi was beaten back slowly in certain cases, immediately destroyed in other cases, and just straight up outmatched in the majority. Strength is a factor that helped Alpha that Solusar isn’t afforded.
Fated Xtasy wrote:Which the clones have due to their mastery, count, and continued growth
"Mastery" of basic abilities. "High midichlorian count" compared to non force users. And "continued growth" whilst their growth rate was purposefully "retarded". Yeah so they don't have force power. Nice.
Jaden's words here matter since they're painted as the truth and reflect Kemp's intent. You're discounting the intent behind his fight in favor of spurious examples that don't even really portray your bottom line.Fated Xtasy wrote:Jaden can think whatever he wants, but what part of those examples is lost on you? Strength plays a part in combat in combination with the Force, otherwise Djem So wouldn't be a thing.
Also I don't really care for VersusTuber tier lightsaber form analysis. Show actual evidence next time.
Are you seriously trying to argue Jagged Fel>Kam? Is that the point we're at right now? Anyway, I'll humor you:Fated Xtasy wrote:They’re literally non-force users, where did the fallanasi illusion go? What about those amazing TK feats? How about those two years of battlemaster experience? What? They didn’t do anything? Say it ain’t so! Even Valin and the mook Jedi were able to defend against GAG while dueling Caedus, hell Jaina and Fel were taking on GAG barehanded. Nice excuse but all that mastery didn’t help Kam then, won’t help him now buddy!
1: The planet was under siege. Any serious moves, and the entire Academy would get bombarded.
- Bombardment:
- "Bombardment seemed rather extreme, under the circumstances, "Serpa said amiably. "After all, the Jedi and the Galactic Alliance Guard are on the same side."
-Inferno
It's not a simple matter of taking out soldiers. Major Serpa was the kind of guy that'd casually kill his own men. If the Jedi acted drastically, he would have ordered the bombardment on himself to accomplish the goal. This is not the same situation for your other examples. In those, the Jedi took straight action. There wasn't any ambiguity of whether the Jedi and the GA were on the same side. So no, Kam < Jag isn't a thing.
2: The man was watching his wife get mutilated. If you expect anyone or any character to be written as being completely calm and not irrational in such a situation, you're tweaking.
- Tionne:
- The screech of another blaster bolt sounded from the courtyard. This time Tionne could not help howling in pain. Kam's rage boiled over, and Jaina sensed him losing control. Then she felt the anger of Ozlo and Jerga-two young Mon Calamari Jedi Knights-harden into resolve, and she knew Serpa was winning.
-Inferno
Also notice how it said he's "losing control"? Yeah. That instantly oneshots your whole "Later Kam doesn't have control" nonsense. He had it. He was just pushed to a breaking point. And said breaking point will not be present in a fight with Kam and Jaden.
3: He was cheapshotted by an unseen enemy so I'm not sure where you get the idea that this is somehow meaningful.
4: You also haven't addressed the fact that they chose not to engage him directly unlike the cases you've mentioned. They knew they couldn't take him so they had to cheapshot.
Considering you were gushing about the basic Force mastery the Community had, this is a massive step up. Plus, it just means Kam is smarter and knows far more. Aka better mastery.Fated Xtasy wrote:The thing is that Knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean Kam got amazing powers from it.
--
It’s more a guide than something with great knowledge like the Revan Holocron
This doesn't apply to any Kam outside of JAT so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on it. Again, you need to learn to differentiate characters in their prime vs characters 30 years before their prime. What you're doing right now is basically arguing that Fate of the Jedi Luke is fodder because in ANH, he could barely deflect blaster bolts.Fated Xtasy wrote:Korr’s not the one getting called inexperienced
Fated Xtasy wrote:given his knowledge of history involving Naga Sadow, and the Rakata
Knowledge that came from Kam and Tionne, yeah. Also Jaden doesn't even have competent knowledge on Sadow's history.
- Oops:
- "The Battle of Kirrek was fought more than five thousand years ago. Naga Sadow has been dead for centuries"
-Crosscurrent
He thinks Sadow was dead for hundreds of years. Instead of thousands like is actually the case.
Citation needed. The crystal purifying thing is something you can't prove isn't common knowledge. And guess what? None of these saved him from getting humiliated by Alpha.Fated Xtasy wrote:as well as access to both esoteric and conventional light as well as dark-side abilities
Well hey, Jaden can't throw rocks fast enough to down TIEs in an exaggerated game medium but Kam can.Fated Xtasy wrote:I sincerely doubt Kam has any experience that Korr lacks.
You left out a rather important part of that passage so allow me to show the full thing:Fated Xtasy wrote:Right, the Illusion that broke whenever all the Jedi Knights left?
- Strong enough:
- "What about the illusion the Jedi have been maintaining around Yavin Four? That's been keeping strangers away."
"Not since almost all of the Jedi Knights have left," Anaíkin said. "They've either come to Coruscant to this meetíing, or gone off to try to help comrades who've disappeared. Last I heard, only the students Kam and Tionne are left, with maybe Streen, and Master Ikrit. They might not be strong enough. Where did Uncle Luke go? We should talk to him about this, right away. It may already be too late."
-Conquest
The illusion is still up. Albeit weaker since the entire Order isn't present.
Furthermore, every other excerpt you've sent comes from characters who didn't know the illusion was still up. Later in the book, Anakin notes that the illusion was "nearly perfect":
- Nearly Perfect:
- Anakin sped over what might have been the billows and curls, thunderstorms and circlestorms of a vast sea of green clouds. The illusion was nearly perfect as the sun reddened, puddled, and shrank against the horizon like a fusion explosion going in slow reverse, condensing back into the bomb that had released it. The real clouds were orange-and-umber lace, and the gas giant was just dipping under the horizon as well. A rare true night was settling, the first in the three standard days since he'd left the crash site.
But the green clouds were an illusion, a potentially deadly one. They were really treetops, and if he passed through one at this speed, he wouldn't experience the slight dampness and negligible turbulence that flying through a cloud produced; he would shatter his makeshift speeder and possibly his own bones against them.
-Conquest
Also since you didn't bother reading the scans I've sent, I'll send em again.
- Pay attention:
--
-NJO sourcebook
-Jedi vs Sith
They kept it up. Safe from casual inspection. They were able to cover that much space from casual inspection. To argue against this point, you need two things:
1: For Kam not to know how to create illusions.
2: For it never to have worked while he created it.
1 is bunk as per the scans I've sent. 2 is also bunk since he's it's explicitly stated to keep it safe from casual inspection. So congrats, you've failed to refute yet another point.
If you paid attention to the circumstances behind what happened in Inferno, you wouldn't have this doubt. It simply wasn't an option. And they didn't even know if the GA were outright their enemies until the last moment.Fated Xtasy wrote:Shame that Kam didn’t think to use it against GAG when they took over the Academy, makes you wonder if it even combats applicable. And, it seems Kam had enough help that when enough jedi left the Illusion couldn't be projected. Countered.
And if you think it has no combative applications...
Their destination stretched across most of the top of the screen, but the lack of reaction behind Luke suggested the island remained hidden from his passengers. Fallanassi illusions worked from the inside, using the White Current to create an impression within the victim's mind so vivid and realistic that his own intellect worked against him to supply the tiniest details-and to conceal anything that might cast doubt on its reality.
-Vortex
Luke even has to warn a High Lord of the Lost Tribe of the Sith to be weary:
"The Fallanassi are pacifists, are they not?" Taalon asked. "What could they send against us?"
"Being a pacifist isn't the same as being helpless," Luke replied. "The Fallanassi have many defenses."
-Vortex
Simply put, if you can project something onto someone's mind with minimal effort, that's a pretty crazy leg up.
This is not a refutation of my argument and as such I'll assume you can't counter.Fated Xtasy wrote:cute.
The moon tier illusion that kept the Academy safe from all but the most intense of scrutiny, yes. Something that took weeks to uncover. Yeah, that is what Jaden will have to deal with on top of Kam's elite dueling skills.Fated Xtasy wrote:Potent force skills? The illusion that broke once the Jedi Knights left? And… boulders that didn’t even destroy a tie fighter but make a dent in it… oh how will I respond!!
And regarding the TIE point, since you neglected to provide any evidence for it, handwaved.
As per? Your headcanon? Because I've provided examples of Solusar being on par with/superior to the dude that kicked Jaden's ass. As well as accolades that gives him more weight that Jaden. And proved Kam has abilities that Jaden doesn't.Fated Xtasy wrote:Kam has nothing in his skillset that is going to give Jaden any trouble, Kam doesn't compare to Soldier or Runner nor does he compare to Ragnos or Mother.
Cool but according to Denning, anyone who's Council/Master level can casually shut Jaden up. That carries more weight than you trying to compare Jaden to the Outlander.Fated Xtasy wrote:Like i’ve said before, rank generally means nothing in combat. I’ll repeat myself once more, Jaden was already Master level in the eyes of the Council otherwise he wouldn’t have been offered the title
Neither of these are refutations to my point. As such, I will have to assume that you are unable to counter. Thank you.Fated Xtasy wrote:Lol now you’re taking the piss. This a weak argument
--
Respectfully, you’re an ass lmao.
Somehow Korr defeating barely force sensitive fodder is better than Kam pressing Luke, oneshotting Dark Side Elite swordsmasters, and stomping an Executor. And to prove this, you've used a spurious feat to argue that Solusar is below random adepts despite him outright stomping their top dog and oneshotting one of their elites. And you argue that he didn't grow in 30+ years because he got cheapshotted by snipers in the most circumstantial encounter. Definitely not reaching.Fated Xtasy wrote:Darling, Korr’s feats are all impressive, they’re all quality. Kam had one duel with Luke and you think he’s > Jaden despite evidence to the contrary that suggests that 1. Luke was holding back. 2. His growth is called into question when he’s disarmed by some adepts. 3 He, as a council member, is nearly killed by GAG soldiers. 4. His superspecialawesome! Knowledge and abilities didn’t do anything to save him or his wife. Your argument hinge on framing Kam’s abilities(disingenuously) as tremendously more powerful than Korr when context, lore, and his admissions say otherwise. In short, Kam is impressive, but he’s terribly inconsistent.
Nope. You have not proved that they're above their templates. You've sent scans that say they've "mastered" basic force abilities, have a lot of midichlorians, and "muh growth". None of which says what you want it to say. Whereas I've given universe precedence, the Lignan thing, and many other points you'd have noticed if you paid attention.Fated Xtasy wrote:You said it yourself more power = augmentation, speed etc. I’ve already said my piece but let me reiterate that we have three comments supporting my idea that the clones are potent and all you have to go on is…. “Let’s assume.” “it’s not quantifiable.” and “but Luuke!” which all really lack foundation.
No matter how you slice it, Kam has a much higher ceiling than Alpha. As he would have more growth that comes from teaching students, more experience, and generally more everything that matters.
When did I say Riptide Jaden>Alpha. Putting words into people's mouths isn't a good way to go.Fated Xtasy wrote:Not as Riptide, you’ve already conceded as much. Nice try though!
You missed the entire point of the first. All I need is for him to be able to project illusions. It's much easier to create non moon sized illusions, so if used, Korr is in some serious trouble. For the second, you tried to use him being called inexperienced as a trainee 30 years before his peak as proof that he has no knowledge edge over Jaden. And for the third, you didn't refute it at all, meaning it stands.Fated Xtasy wrote:You literally posted the Fallanasi illusion which dispersed after the Jedi left, information regarding the Great Holocron which grants Kam some knowledge, and force shutting a mouth as a joke. All Weak.
Anyway, the rest of the post is you repeating your laughable arguments so I'll move on to my closing statement.
Conclusions/Recap:
Kam:
-Kam outstrips Jaden in hype via his position's accolades. Additionally Solusar has a much better growth rate. Hell, there is not a single accolade that Jaden has that Kam doesn't do better.-Stats put Solusar with/above Jaden's superiors. (Kyle, etc)
-Kam, by virtue of being the template should be in the same realm as Alpha, if not way better. And as such enjoys all the scaling that comes with Alpha such as handily beating Jaden. Of course, Solusar has way more going for him skill wise so prospects aren't bright for Jaden there.
-Kam's knowledge is far superior.
Your performance:
-Your first post was a complete nothingburger that went nowhere. Your subsequent posts were just attempts to counter that got more and more desperate. Your final post culminated in your attempting to scale Jagged Fel above Kam so... yikes.-To expand upon the previous points, your arguments in general were contradictory/wonky/bad faith/etc. You tried arguing that Kam dies to random DS adepts despite him stomping their best in multiple occasions and only being disadvantaged at a nexus that resonated with memories of his dead dad. Yada yada. I already dismantled that one. Anyway, your entire case against Kam boils down to 3 points: Him being inexperienced as a trainee, him getting cheapshotted by snipers, and the community clones being superior to their templates. None of which hold up even under the most casual of scrutiny.
- Fated needs to learn what context to use words in:
- You also somehow don't know what concession or back pedaling means so allow me to explain:
To concede in our context would mean I'm giving ground to your points. Not once has that happened. As your arguments aren't nearly good enough to make me even consider doing that. Me saying in my first post that I'm not scaling Kam to DE2 Luke isn't a concession. I'm not giving you anything. I don't need him to scale to Luke. My bottom line doesn't require Kam~Luke. The same could be said to basically every other time you tried to use "concession" in this debate. A concession is if I give you ground based on any arguments you made. Which hasn't once happened since your arguments are all that bad.
To backpedal means basically to go back on what one says. Reversing action, etc. Not once in my posts did I take back anything I've said. Matter a fact... you started your final post off by saying "no one's saying Jaden>Kyle" and then went to argue Jaden>>Runner>Kyle. So way to backpedal.
My bottom line is the same going in as coming out. Jaden vs Kam would be much like Jaden vs Alpha except likely faster due to Solusar's superior martial arts skills and everything else.
Simply put, little to nothing in my argument has or will change.
And with that, my post is concluded. Thank you for debating me I guess and now onto judgment!
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
July 23rd 2022, 4:29 pm
I'm a bit sick and tired, so if I make any typos or something you know why lol. In this debate, there are seven main points, and I'll take it point by point:
Kyle vs Jaden/Kam: This entire argument seemed off for me from both sides for most of the debate. Fated's arguments that Jaden learned from Kyle superior knowledge vs Kam seemed lackluster at best, with it amounting to Kyle's padawans being dangerous, Jaden having learned different fighting styles from what Kam taught, and him being Kyle's best padawan. The former wasn't explained why it makes him superior to Kam. The second was disputed by RNG, but neither really do any noticable effort to explain why their scans prove that they're different (Fated) or the same (RNG). The latter, Jaden being Kyle's greatest padawan, is once again left in the open as to why it puts him > Kam. RNG's point that Fated explicitly is not arguing that Jaden is comparable to Kyle is noted, which again brings into question what this point from Fated proves (besides giving general hype for Jaden, which it does, but it alone won't be game-changing for my judgement).
Stats: RNG in turn makes arguments that Kam is comparable to Kyle, who both seem to be in agreement is > Jaden, or even outright superior to certain versions of Kyle. Feel like he could have better explained what the scans exactly show for casual readers who might not know what the different numbers mean and what puts one character over another in them. However Fated's counter (scaling Ragnos to Palpatine and Mara scaling) was debunked
Jaden vs Soldier vs Alpha vs Kam: This one was a lot of back and forth, and i don't really think either debater could claim a solid lead on one another. Fated's arguments that Soldier > Alpha and that the clones are > their templates were lackluster, but so were RNG's counters. Fated: "He's named prime", RNG: "He's named Alpha". So overall I don't think the debate provides a satisfactory resolution to whether Alpha or Soldier is superior. As for Alpha vs Kam, I do not think that RNG's counters to Alpha having a strength advantage were as strong as they could be, and I don't think he at all debunked physical strength having an effect on the overall performance of a fighter. Feel like for RNG to claim a proper win in that he'd have to have pointed out that Savage and Anakin are extraordinarily strong people, but I digress. However I do think that RNG sufficiently argued that strength is a lesser factor than other things. Similarily, I do not think that Fated at all made sufficient case for why Kam's skill, experience, knowledge, etc wouldn't allow him to bridge that gap.
Jaden vs Reborn/Alora vs Kam vs DS elite/Ossus: This seemed like a really empty and wasteful back and forth. The only actual development in this point was in RNG's conclusion, in which he made a clear argument for why the DS elite > the reborn. Until then these arguments may as well not have existed. I do frown upon the fact that this argument was only presented after Fated could no longer respond (although I do not think that was willfull intent on RNG's part), but since its the only argument presented here that actually carries weight I will consider this category a weak win for RNG.
Hype battle/accolade battle/rank battle: Again at certain points the back and forth seemed poorly thought out. RNG's argument is clear; Kam "leveled" up quicker, and has held the position of master for far longer, and master > non-master, so Kam > Jaden. Fated gave many examples of people who were not masters > masters, but then kind of dropped that point in favour of going with kyp and wedge thinking he's impressive, and Kam not having control, neither case really being notable. RNG's side could have been strong, with for example comparing Kam to jedi who could just "force clamp" jaden's mouth shut, but how he presented it was kind of odd and unconvincing. Overall advantage RNG, but this point seems clumsy on both sides.
Force feats/mastery: Extremely low-effort. Fated says Kam can only dent a TIE, doesn't post any source. Fated says that Jaden has tutaminis, RNG tells him to prove kam doesn't; RNG should prove he does. RNG dismisses balancing force crystals as non-combat applicable, Fated presented it as a mastery point. RNG says Kam has access to Great Holocron knowledge, doesn't at all elaborate on what that contains/means (perhaps mention that tutaminis is part of its lessons?). Fated's counter is essentially "Its not that impressive", and posts a quote about it's contents without elaborating. And so on it goes. The only real arguments that I take from this as valid are:
- Jaden has a mastery ability only Kreia does
- Kam has combat applicable mass illusions
GAG: Both RNG using kyle's padawans dying and fated using snipers shooting kam was just strange. RNG did get a "they only killed the padawans with ambushes" to counter Fated, so if that was the intent when making the argument thats a good job. RNG mentioned Kam's durability from the sniper event but never used it for anything. Fated using the snipers as an anti-feat was unconvincing.
Conclusion: Overall RNG had more convincing arguments and points, but I could imagine another judge leaning the other way. @Chris_Cortosis (I think thats how you tag people with spaces in their names, has my vote.
Good job to both contestants!
Kyle vs Jaden/Kam: This entire argument seemed off for me from both sides for most of the debate. Fated's arguments that Jaden learned from Kyle superior knowledge vs Kam seemed lackluster at best, with it amounting to Kyle's padawans being dangerous, Jaden having learned different fighting styles from what Kam taught, and him being Kyle's best padawan. The former wasn't explained why it makes him superior to Kam. The second was disputed by RNG, but neither really do any noticable effort to explain why their scans prove that they're different (Fated) or the same (RNG). The latter, Jaden being Kyle's greatest padawan, is once again left in the open as to why it puts him > Kam. RNG's point that Fated explicitly is not arguing that Jaden is comparable to Kyle is noted, which again brings into question what this point from Fated proves (besides giving general hype for Jaden, which it does, but it alone won't be game-changing for my judgement).
Stats: RNG in turn makes arguments that Kam is comparable to Kyle, who both seem to be in agreement is > Jaden, or even outright superior to certain versions of Kyle. Feel like he could have better explained what the scans exactly show for casual readers who might not know what the different numbers mean and what puts one character over another in them. However Fated's counter (scaling Ragnos to Palpatine and Mara scaling) was debunked
Jaden vs Soldier vs Alpha vs Kam: This one was a lot of back and forth, and i don't really think either debater could claim a solid lead on one another. Fated's arguments that Soldier > Alpha and that the clones are > their templates were lackluster, but so were RNG's counters. Fated: "He's named prime", RNG: "He's named Alpha". So overall I don't think the debate provides a satisfactory resolution to whether Alpha or Soldier is superior. As for Alpha vs Kam, I do not think that RNG's counters to Alpha having a strength advantage were as strong as they could be, and I don't think he at all debunked physical strength having an effect on the overall performance of a fighter. Feel like for RNG to claim a proper win in that he'd have to have pointed out that Savage and Anakin are extraordinarily strong people, but I digress. However I do think that RNG sufficiently argued that strength is a lesser factor than other things. Similarily, I do not think that Fated at all made sufficient case for why Kam's skill, experience, knowledge, etc wouldn't allow him to bridge that gap.
Jaden vs Reborn/Alora vs Kam vs DS elite/Ossus: This seemed like a really empty and wasteful back and forth. The only actual development in this point was in RNG's conclusion, in which he made a clear argument for why the DS elite > the reborn. Until then these arguments may as well not have existed. I do frown upon the fact that this argument was only presented after Fated could no longer respond (although I do not think that was willfull intent on RNG's part), but since its the only argument presented here that actually carries weight I will consider this category a weak win for RNG.
Hype battle/accolade battle/rank battle: Again at certain points the back and forth seemed poorly thought out. RNG's argument is clear; Kam "leveled" up quicker, and has held the position of master for far longer, and master > non-master, so Kam > Jaden. Fated gave many examples of people who were not masters > masters, but then kind of dropped that point in favour of going with kyp and wedge thinking he's impressive, and Kam not having control, neither case really being notable. RNG's side could have been strong, with for example comparing Kam to jedi who could just "force clamp" jaden's mouth shut, but how he presented it was kind of odd and unconvincing. Overall advantage RNG, but this point seems clumsy on both sides.
Force feats/mastery: Extremely low-effort. Fated says Kam can only dent a TIE, doesn't post any source. Fated says that Jaden has tutaminis, RNG tells him to prove kam doesn't; RNG should prove he does. RNG dismisses balancing force crystals as non-combat applicable, Fated presented it as a mastery point. RNG says Kam has access to Great Holocron knowledge, doesn't at all elaborate on what that contains/means (perhaps mention that tutaminis is part of its lessons?). Fated's counter is essentially "Its not that impressive", and posts a quote about it's contents without elaborating. And so on it goes. The only real arguments that I take from this as valid are:
- Jaden has a mastery ability only Kreia does
- Kam has combat applicable mass illusions
GAG: Both RNG using kyle's padawans dying and fated using snipers shooting kam was just strange. RNG did get a "they only killed the padawans with ambushes" to counter Fated, so if that was the intent when making the argument thats a good job. RNG mentioned Kam's durability from the sniper event but never used it for anything. Fated using the snipers as an anti-feat was unconvincing.
Conclusion: Overall RNG had more convincing arguments and points, but I could imagine another judge leaning the other way. @Chris_Cortosis (I think thats how you tag people with spaces in their names, has my vote.
Good job to both contestants!
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Re: Jaden Korr (FatedXtasy) vs Kam Solusar (Chris Cortosis/rng)
August 1st 2022, 1:54 pm
Work#1 (Fated): Fated's opener wasn't really anything special. First arguments were rather generic, lacking in precision, just going through the lists of opponents defeated and planets visited at first, but never going too much about any details of Jaden's opponents and what made anything special and worthwhile. Just a listing of opponents, this part was underwhelming. It starts getting better on the Force front.
Work#2 (RNG): RNG's response was way better, though it started with some rather weird points, like, for instance, DoE quote, at least as provided, without any context, was clearly refering strictly to Ataru. Good idea, though, on making some solid reasoning on why dueling when holding back still makes a showcase of skill and power. The story about Kam's clone was obviously gonna be here and its deployment was as solid as it was admittedly easy to do.
Work#3 (Fated): Fated regained his footing with his response, going through some rather minor and insignificant pointers at the beginning, but then really going all-out. Here he really regains advantage, and I'll add that he really seems to address pretty much everything. Sometimes it's obviously bordering on nitpicking, sometimes it's extremely precise and skilled deconstruction and destruction. While obviously some points are weak (although equally many are really witty and pin-point the issues perfectly), it should be noted that none of them are really blunders, and that's quite a feat given how Fated really tried to address every point possible.
Work#4 (RNG): RNG's counters on the Kyle lineage are super solid and I think they really seal the deal. The argument itself was kinda weak from the beginning and I feel like at this point any further debate on that would be nearly pointless. I cringe at underselling voxyn though - they were insanely immense in power and to NJO reader singular voxyn would probably kill random solid Jedi Knight from Prequel era lol. Hate the stats, but they're used correctly. I would probably instantly accept most anti-stat arguments since using RPG stats was considered an absolute joke when we stepped back from retarded way of arguing in 2005-2010 era and started looking at events and narrative instead of using game stats, but I don't see any good anti-stat arguments here at all, so I'll have to roll with that. Now, to my surprise, RNG really works his way back to top. His arguments are now set way harder on the general premise of the events, of the holistic entirety of things described in the quotes and excerpts spread across the posts. Now he really tries to sell a broader point, constructing an entire way of reasoning, creating an entire image, instead of just going through number of random things. Later on, he goes into more... controversial and dubious statements, but hey, that's the fun of it! It's up to the opponent to try to capitalise on potential problems with the reasoning. Fated's weaker points are easily addressed here to, like the response to this part for example: "Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response." Some moments are weaker though, like calling Jedi Academy an exaggerated medium, when it's perhaps the most grounded video game of all times in all honesty. Parts about Jaden regaining his balance in Crosscurent stories aren't repelled convincingly, especially if the comparison is to Mustafar Vader, as it's a good example - an example of how the state of mind defines all of Force user's abilities and dictate the fights.
Work#5 (Fated): First counterarguments I feel are solid, but often too short considering how RNG's responses exposed more details. Fated represents a good line of reasoning, but it's not always convincing because of that. Sometimes one sentence of "gotcha" is enough and sometimes not. However, the arguments on why Kyle's lineage matters is constructed insanely well; at this point I really think that Fated sells his idea really well, even though it's hard for me to take it as something supremely serious. I give Fated point on that, but the problem is, I shouldn't try to be a reader that doesn't even know anything of Star Wars and literature itself, and to me no matter what anybody posts, I'll never consider `who was a trainer of whom` as something more serious as just one bonus point. Great counter on the stats however, even if I hate seeing them at all. Fated's further responses really pick up the solid pace set by RNG and in summary, at this point, I feel like Fated's reasoning gets better. He focuses on hard inconsistencies and simple, but solid counters. Here his attitude that was a problem at the beginning (see above) works here really well. Without overdoing stuff, he simply pinpoints any problem he sees and puts it down as simple facts. At this moment, Fated really gains an advantage.
Work#6 (RNG): RNG really saved the best for last. This is clearly the most detailed response, and he really tries to sell on every point possible. There is hardly anything ommited, there is hardly anything not described from A to Z. He really tried to do everything possible at once here, and I gotta say it really succeeded. It's quite similar to Fated's work in post3. Some of his points are weak, some are solid, and some are extremely good, but none are any real blunders, and given he addresses everything possible at once - it really sells his point across.
My final vote will go to RNG really mostly based on his final post. I feel like every moment before that they really went back and forth. There was no real defining moment before the final post. Quite honestly, it's hard to see any difference between the two in terms of quality of rhetorics. Fated frequently had his big "gotcha" moments with short, simple rebuttals with great accuracy, but RNG shined when it came to larger arguments and constructing a broader scaling and analysis of larger context; albeit in defining larger context, Fated also did tremendously well. Quite honestly the biggest fall RNG took was the sniper anti-wank. It helped that Fated didn't really capitalize much on that, but in the head of a viewer, this really serves as a huge downside in any judgement.
Some arguments you guys used were kinda simplistic and overall very mudded. Reborn/Cultist/Alora vs. DS elite/Ossus troopers part could have been really glorious for Fated if he focused more on the scale and attacked all the ideas of Jaden healing, which should be super easy to debunk (who the fuck sits back and heals in a giant battle? how the hell can you heal yourself up to 100%? even if you rest and use bacta, you won't get back to 100% of your health, you will still be gradually diminished, and with Jaden going through somewhere around ~65 Cultists and Reborn (!) resting doesn't mean he comes back to any sort of good composure, he just catches a breath to be able to even continue fighting without fainting... etc), but this part has proven to be notoriously weak on all fronts. The sniper part was really what could have sealed the deal too; you can go over dozens of examples of how a Jedi of Jaden's power would never fall to something like that, the GAG troopers being just normal human beings in the end, just normies, etc. However other than those two parts being surprisingly weak (and while they could have awarded the win to Fated, I believe both of you could have done better in those threads), I think other parts were really solid and interesting to read. Overall it was a nice read except those two areas, and I really enjoyed the talk about the importance of master-apprentice lineage; quite a refreshing stuff.
Good job guys, fun read
Work#2 (RNG): RNG's response was way better, though it started with some rather weird points, like, for instance, DoE quote, at least as provided, without any context, was clearly refering strictly to Ataru. Good idea, though, on making some solid reasoning on why dueling when holding back still makes a showcase of skill and power. The story about Kam's clone was obviously gonna be here and its deployment was as solid as it was admittedly easy to do.
Work#3 (Fated): Fated regained his footing with his response, going through some rather minor and insignificant pointers at the beginning, but then really going all-out. Here he really regains advantage, and I'll add that he really seems to address pretty much everything. Sometimes it's obviously bordering on nitpicking, sometimes it's extremely precise and skilled deconstruction and destruction. While obviously some points are weak (although equally many are really witty and pin-point the issues perfectly), it should be noted that none of them are really blunders, and that's quite a feat given how Fated really tried to address every point possible.
Work#4 (RNG): RNG's counters on the Kyle lineage are super solid and I think they really seal the deal. The argument itself was kinda weak from the beginning and I feel like at this point any further debate on that would be nearly pointless. I cringe at underselling voxyn though - they were insanely immense in power and to NJO reader singular voxyn would probably kill random solid Jedi Knight from Prequel era lol. Hate the stats, but they're used correctly. I would probably instantly accept most anti-stat arguments since using RPG stats was considered an absolute joke when we stepped back from retarded way of arguing in 2005-2010 era and started looking at events and narrative instead of using game stats, but I don't see any good anti-stat arguments here at all, so I'll have to roll with that. Now, to my surprise, RNG really works his way back to top. His arguments are now set way harder on the general premise of the events, of the holistic entirety of things described in the quotes and excerpts spread across the posts. Now he really tries to sell a broader point, constructing an entire way of reasoning, creating an entire image, instead of just going through number of random things. Later on, he goes into more... controversial and dubious statements, but hey, that's the fun of it! It's up to the opponent to try to capitalise on potential problems with the reasoning. Fated's weaker points are easily addressed here to, like the response to this part for example: "Jaden’s bringing the Force into this battle in a Revan-like manner and Solusar has no response." Some moments are weaker though, like calling Jedi Academy an exaggerated medium, when it's perhaps the most grounded video game of all times in all honesty. Parts about Jaden regaining his balance in Crosscurent stories aren't repelled convincingly, especially if the comparison is to Mustafar Vader, as it's a good example - an example of how the state of mind defines all of Force user's abilities and dictate the fights.
Work#5 (Fated): First counterarguments I feel are solid, but often too short considering how RNG's responses exposed more details. Fated represents a good line of reasoning, but it's not always convincing because of that. Sometimes one sentence of "gotcha" is enough and sometimes not. However, the arguments on why Kyle's lineage matters is constructed insanely well; at this point I really think that Fated sells his idea really well, even though it's hard for me to take it as something supremely serious. I give Fated point on that, but the problem is, I shouldn't try to be a reader that doesn't even know anything of Star Wars and literature itself, and to me no matter what anybody posts, I'll never consider `who was a trainer of whom` as something more serious as just one bonus point. Great counter on the stats however, even if I hate seeing them at all. Fated's further responses really pick up the solid pace set by RNG and in summary, at this point, I feel like Fated's reasoning gets better. He focuses on hard inconsistencies and simple, but solid counters. Here his attitude that was a problem at the beginning (see above) works here really well. Without overdoing stuff, he simply pinpoints any problem he sees and puts it down as simple facts. At this moment, Fated really gains an advantage.
Work#6 (RNG): RNG really saved the best for last. This is clearly the most detailed response, and he really tries to sell on every point possible. There is hardly anything ommited, there is hardly anything not described from A to Z. He really tried to do everything possible at once here, and I gotta say it really succeeded. It's quite similar to Fated's work in post3. Some of his points are weak, some are solid, and some are extremely good, but none are any real blunders, and given he addresses everything possible at once - it really sells his point across.
My final vote will go to RNG really mostly based on his final post. I feel like every moment before that they really went back and forth. There was no real defining moment before the final post. Quite honestly, it's hard to see any difference between the two in terms of quality of rhetorics. Fated frequently had his big "gotcha" moments with short, simple rebuttals with great accuracy, but RNG shined when it came to larger arguments and constructing a broader scaling and analysis of larger context; albeit in defining larger context, Fated also did tremendously well. Quite honestly the biggest fall RNG took was the sniper anti-wank. It helped that Fated didn't really capitalize much on that, but in the head of a viewer, this really serves as a huge downside in any judgement.
Some arguments you guys used were kinda simplistic and overall very mudded. Reborn/Cultist/Alora vs. DS elite/Ossus troopers part could have been really glorious for Fated if he focused more on the scale and attacked all the ideas of Jaden healing, which should be super easy to debunk (who the fuck sits back and heals in a giant battle? how the hell can you heal yourself up to 100%? even if you rest and use bacta, you won't get back to 100% of your health, you will still be gradually diminished, and with Jaden going through somewhere around ~65 Cultists and Reborn (!) resting doesn't mean he comes back to any sort of good composure, he just catches a breath to be able to even continue fighting without fainting... etc), but this part has proven to be notoriously weak on all fronts. The sniper part was really what could have sealed the deal too; you can go over dozens of examples of how a Jedi of Jaden's power would never fall to something like that, the GAG troopers being just normal human beings in the end, just normies, etc. However other than those two parts being surprisingly weak (and while they could have awarded the win to Fated, I believe both of you could have done better in those threads), I think other parts were really solid and interesting to read. Overall it was a nice read except those two areas, and I really enjoyed the talk about the importance of master-apprentice lineage; quite a refreshing stuff.
Good job guys, fun read
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