SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77)

There will be 3 posts per side - of 10K characters each - and a maximum of 10 days in which to release a post.

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:

- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
- Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
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I. Joruus C'baoth

To kick off this debate we'll start with Joruus C'baoth. Here he's able to TK rocks in front of blaster bolts after they were fired.

Star Wars: Heir to The Empire wrote:With a crackle of splintering wood, the crossbow bolt shattered, the pieces dropping to the ground. Slowly, reluctantly, the guard lowered his crossbow, his eyes still burning with a now impotent rage. Thrawn let him stand there another second like that, then gestured to Rukh. The Noghri raised his blaster and fired—

And in a blur of motion almost too fast to see, a flat stone detached itself from the ground and hurled itself directly into the path of the shot, shattering spectacularly as the blast hit it.

Thrawn spun to face C’baoth, his face a mirror of surprise and anger. “C’baoth—!”

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:Solo had a different sort of lesson in mind. He reached the end of the walkway, sighted along the barrel of his blaster, and fired.

But even wallowing in self-delusion, a Jedi of C'baoth's power couldn't be taken out that easily. In a blur of motion, Mara's blaster leaped upward from the floor into the path of the shot, its grip shattering into a shower of sparks as Solo's shot expended its energy there. The second shot was likewise blocked; the third caught the blaster's power pack, turning the weapon into a spectacular fireball. The blaster was torn from Solo's grip before he could fire a fourth.

Let's see how Mara handles C'baoth with his speed established.

Star Wars: Dark Force Rising wrote:There was a snap-hiss from beside her, and suddenly the terrain was bathed in the green-white glow of Skywalker's lightsaber. "Get behind the ship," he ordered her. "I'll hold him off."

The memory of Myrkr flashed through Mara's mind; but even as she opened her mouth to remind him of how useless he was without the Force, he took a long step forward to put himself outside the ysalamir's influence. The lightsaber flashed sideways, and she heard the double crunch as its silent blade intercepted two more incoming rocks.

Still laughing, C'baoth raised his hand and sent a flash of blue lightning toward them.

Skywalker caught the bolt on his lightsaber, and for an instant the green of the blade was surrounded by a blue-white coronal discharge. A second bolt shot past him to vanish at the edge of the empty zone around Mara; a third again wrapped itself around the lightsaber blade.

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:Raising her lightsaber, she charged.

C'baoth swung around to face her, his face contorted with rage. "No!" he screamed; and again the blue-white lightning crackled from his fingertips. Mara caught the burst on her lightsaber, her mad rush faltering as coronal fire burned all around her. C'baoth fired again and again, backing toward the throne and the solid wall behind it. Doggedly, Mara kept coming.

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:The distraction was all the opening Mara needed. She leaped forward against the rocks still pummeling against her face, covering the last remaining distance between her and C'baoth; and as he brought his hands desperately back toward her, she dropped onto her knees in front of him and stabbed viciously upward with her lightsaber. With a last, mournful scream, C'baoth crumpledó

And as it had with the Emperor aboard the Death Star, the dark side energy within him burst out in a violent explosion of blue fire.

Luke was ready. Throwing every last bit of strength into the effort, he caught Mara in a solid Force grip, pulling her back away from that burst of energy as fast as he could. He felt the wave-front slam into him; felt the slight easing of stress as Leia's strength joined his effort.

And then, suddenly, it was all over.

Joruus comics:

Essentially, Mara was quick enough to react to his very potent lightning, and coupled with her own strength in the Force, Mara was able to duck under his attack, get in front of him, and kill C'baoth before he could even look back onto her. This is after C'baoth's speed is proven to TK rocks in front of blaster bolts after having been fired.

And keep in mind this is before Mara grows "much more powerful."

Wizards of the Coast wrote:Mara Jade, Jedi depicts the New Republic version of this complex character. As might be expected, she is much more powerful than her former Imperial faction self.

II. Kyp Durron

Kyp Durron, with the totality of his power, is able to move a Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularity.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines 1: Rebel Dreams wrote:Kyp handing the task of flying evasively over to his reflexes while his mind went elsewhere.

Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

They were past the second wave of coralskippers now and heading toward the cloud surrounding Jag. Beyond it, not far now, was the second interdictor. Kyp knew that other skips had to be converging on him and Jaina. He didn't bother to look at his sensor board. They weren't relevant now.

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.

He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

[...]

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

The portions of the interdictor in closest proximity to the void accelerated faster into its maw so that portions farther back tore, venting gases into space. But the incredible gravity of the singularity didn't allow the remainder of the ship to tear away and be free. It dragged greater and greater portions of the interdictor into it, compressing them, rending them, and in a moment the interdictor was gone.

But you may ask how do we quantify this feat?

Coralskipper black holes around the time of the NJO should have way more pull/strength than, for example, moon-mass black holes. A moon-mass black hole would be compressed into a diameter of about barely 0.2 millimeters - or roughly the size of a grain of sand. In contrast,  the singularities were described as "gravity-intensive," "gravitic anomalies" and "distorting space around it like a gigantic magnifying lens."

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines 1: Rebel's Dreams wrote:No, it was eight streams. Luke's burst, aimed at the starboard side of the skip, never reached its target; a blackness appeared before it, distorting space around it like a gigantic magnifying lens, drawing the laserfire into it. Those four red lances of energy simply bent and disappeared. But Mara's burst, aimed at the port side, hit the coralskipper an instant after Luke's vanished. He grinned; she must have been using her own Force abilities to monitor him, as well. She couldn't have timed it so expertly otherwise. Her lasers raked across the enemy starfighter's hull until the distortion flicked over to interpose itself, then Luke fired again, chipping away at the coralskipper's stern. His blasts were joined by Corran's. The coral-like material of the skip's hull superheated and the lasers tore red-hot gouges along the surface.

Coralskipper black holes have some neat feats, like ragdolling 3 accelerating X-Wings, swallowing a fighter thrown at it by Kyp, and swallowing multiple torpedos while dragging more accelerating X-Wings. It's important to note that these feats aren't noted to be the Dovin Basal's ceiling, and as explained beforehand the gravity of even a real life moon-mass black hole would be substantially less than the one we're seeing here.

Spoiler:

Now let's compare Luke and Kyp's respective feats against these singularities.

Luke Skywalker, operating in "nanoseconds," is able to get the feel of the Dovin Basal's power, and overwhelms the power of the Basals and throws the black hole at them.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Dark Tide Onslaught wrote:He dropped the aiming reticle over the slow-moving vehicle, then flipped a switch that turned control of the torpedoes' flight data to the Impervious. He kept his fighter pointed on target, then hit the trigger. Two proton torpedoes jetted away on azure fire, and another two came from his port. All four headed in on target.

Catch reported a gravitic anomaly, somewhat larger than most, had positioned itself to intercept the missiles. Gavin narrowed his eyes, waiting for the blast.I hope you know what you're doing, Luke.

[...]

"How's the missile telemetry coming through, Artoo?"

The little droid tootled confidently, spinning his head around to look at Luke.

A beep sounded from the droid, and Elegos glanced at a secondary monitor. "I have four torpedo launches. All are hot."

"Good."

Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.

The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

"Artoo, juke the missiles."

R2-D2 keened sharply and fed the proton torpedoes a new set of data. The torpedoes twisted in flight and arced toward the sky, flying up and over the void. Then they turned again and fell toward the ground, aimed at the vehicle's spine.

Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

The void crashed into the vehicle, striking it in midspine. The long vehicle bent backward as both ends became sucked into the black hole. It flowed like thick liquid, all the sharp horns and bony plates becoming fluid as they curved up over the void's event horizon. In less than an eye blink the vehicle had been consumed by the void, leaving a huge gap in the Yuuzhan Vong formation.

Then the proton torpedoes detonated. One after another the four missiles slammed into the ground and exploded. Their blasts scattered Yuuzhan Vong warriors and lit the night. They gouged a huge canyon across the Yuuzhan Vong line of advance, and the shock waves were such that the ground rippled even into the refugee compound. Soldiers fell on both sides of the battlefield, and ramparts collapsed.

Now, back to Kyp Durron's own feat against the singularity, nothing in the text notes a difference in size to the one Luke did. Both Luke and Kyp are familiar with the power of Dovin Basals and coralskippers, so there's no knowledge gap here. While Kyp may be right or wrong about being more powerful than the Grandmaster, it doesn't mean that Luke isn't still operating in "nanoseconds." This coupled in with Kyp at-least needing this speed to be able to gauge the power of the Dovin Basal, and with more Dovin Basals to move than Luke, is indicative of Kyp also operating in nanoseconds to complete this feat.

And before we start chalking up these feats to the medium difference, lest us not forget that in this medium they are actively trying to portray Luke as human rather than a superhero, by specifically limiting what he'd be able to do, and this would by extension apply to Kyp as well.

And to wrap up this section, Mara Jade at the end of the Vong War is stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron, who is still an ally of Luke Skywalker despite their differences in approach.

III. Mara Jade vs Jacen Solo

This section will go into detail that Mara Jade can punch above her weight in the face of a being who is more powerful.

I'll let this anonymous user explain what happened during their fight.

Anonymous User wrote:Mara emphasises that she can't outstrip his force powers. That being said when they throwdown in the tunnels, Mara beats the shit out of him:

Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.
She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.
He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.
They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.
"Ben... I'll see you dead first... before... you get... Ben."
Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.
"You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be."
"Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is.

Although Mara is noticably less powerful than Jacen, she outstrips Jacen in a close quarters setting, through sheer brutality and lightsaber mastery.

IV. Conclusion

1. Mara Jade through her speed is able to beat an opponent who can TK rocks in front of blaster fire, after being fired.
2. The singularities that Kyp and Luke move are significantly more massive than a moon.
3. Kyp Durron possesses Luke Skywalker's ability to operate in nanoseconds.
4. Mara Jade at the end of the Vong War scales above Kyp Durron.
5. Mara Jade when faced with a combatant who is superior in the Force, is able to show superiority through superior saber skills and sheer tenacity.

Unless you can prove Wyyrlok even remotely compares to Mara's power, speed, and fighting skill, it's a wash.

Mara blitzes.

Great Expectations

1) Preface

To be frank EC, your post did not live up to my high, one might almost say great, expectations. I can quite literally ignore every single point made within it if I so wish, and be none the worse for wear. All you've done is present scaling for Mara that, while impressive, does little to tie her to Wyyrlok in any meaningful fashion. As a result I don't really feel inclined to address anything you wrote, and will instead lay out my own superior method of comparison, which places Wyyrlok solidly above Mara. Moving on...

2) Scaling

As you've been kind enough to note, Jacen is indeed much more powerful than Mara, a point emphasised in Sacrifice:

EmperorCaedus wrote:This section will go into detail that Mara Jade can punch above her weight in the face of a being who is more powerful.

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

Likewise in Bloodlines we have both Jacen and Mara acknowledging him as her better, making it pretty cut and dry that Mara is just not up to par with her Nephew. Getting by only through picking the killing field and utilising superior weaponry.

By contrast, here is how Aurra performs against Jacen:

Spoiler:

Take note of the underlined sections. Sing is able to compete with his speed, knock him around with physical attacks that he wasn't fast enough to respond to, and soak up his force push so well that she can even disarm him in the middle of it. By any metric she's at least as powerful as Mara, possibly far superior. Which leads us to...

Aurra Sing Databank wrote:The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

Secura outright stalemating Sing, as evidenced by both the Comic itself and the Databank.

Her superior in Vos is then manhandled by Dooku with the force in what is an exceptionally casual display of superiority.

Dooku himself is then bitched by Anakin:

Spoiler:

Who himself is basically stalemated by Kenobi on Mustafar:

Spoiler:

Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

Kenobi himself is then given a solid fight by Hett:

Spoiler:

Who himself notes that he is superior as Darth Krayt to a pretty radical degree:

Legacy: Claws Of The Dragon wrote:Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then.

Indicating that he has now surpassed Obi-Wan, and by extension Dooku.

Krayt's power is then further boosted by a near death experience:

Legacy: War wrote:I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.

With him going as far to state that it has multiplied. Leaving us with:

Reborn Krayt>>>Vong Krayt>>Obi-Wan Kenobi>Count Dooku>>>>Quinlan Vos>Aayla Secura ~ Aurra Sing>>Mara Jade.

Wyyrlok, as you know, is then able to duel Reborn Krayt and not get outright ended immediately. Which given the degrees of separation present here puts him firmly above Mara, who is buried in this chain, a chain that has at least a couple of one shot gaps between top and bottom. Even if I'm wrong on some individual points or placements here, the extent to which I would have to be misinterpreting the material for Wyyrlok to be below Mara is insane. I truly don't think you envision that I'm incorrect to such a degree, and will thus ask you to cease this nonsense, and give Krayt and Wyyrlok their rightful places as powerhouses well above the likes of Jade.

The Legacy fighter wins.

I. Aurra Sing

DC77 wrote:Likewise in Bloodlines we have both Jacen and Mara acknowledging him as her better, making it pretty cut and dry that Mara is just not up to par with her Nephew. Getting by only through picking the killing field and utilising superior weaponry.

By contrast, here is how Aurra performs against Jacen:

Spoiler:

Take note of the underlined sections. Sing is able to compete with his speed, knock him around with physical attacks that he wasn't fast enough to respond to, and soak up his force push so well that she can even disarm him in the middle of it. By any metric she's at least as powerful as Mara, possibly far superior. Which leads us to...

Except for the fact that we have much more reason to believe the disparity between Aurra and Jacen is much larger than Jacen and Mara.

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.

Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."

Her thumb twitched.

The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind, watching in horror as she pitched the detonator toward the refresher where Allana was hid-ing.

Here we see Jacen was in the process of TP dominating Aurra, and is only unsuccessful due to losing his concentration when Aurra activates the detonator.

Near TP dominating another Force user requires one of the largest disparities in the mythos. For example, we have Luke Skywalker needing to root himself in the heart of the Force to stave off UnuThul's TK.

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

But here UnuThul admits he can't TP Jacen, who would likely be one-shot by the same TK used against Luke.

Dark Nest: The Joiner King wrote:"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

While Jacen is above both Mara and Aurra in power, there is no reason to indicate the disparity is nearly the same given Mara's respective power and speed scaling outlined earlier, and the disparity required to almost TP dominate another Force user.

In other words, all you have proven is that Jacen is beyond both of them, not beyond both of them to the same degree required for your chain to hold.

II. Dooku and Kenobi

DC77 wrote:Dooku himself is then bitched by Anakin:

Spoiler:

Who himself is basically stalemated by Kenobi on Mustafar:

Spoiler:

 

Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

There is no basis of comparison between their respective performances against Anakin.

The gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin is "enormous," the former only able to close the gap due to his familiarity with Anakin and emotional maturity.

Star Wars: Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote:Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Here's an example of Anakin's mental state going into the fight.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.

He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.

All things die.

Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.

Now its poison chilled him to the bone.

Even stars burn out.

The "dragon" being a metaphor for his doubts and insecurities regarding his ability to save Padme. Meanwhile against Dooku, Anakin is in one of the best mental states of his life.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:We'll see about that.

He gave himself to the battle, and his starfighter whirled and his cannons hammered, and droids on all sides began to burst into clouds of debris and superheated gas.

This was how he relaxed.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

And even then, we have a much more reliable indicator of the disparity between Kenobi and Dooku.

III. Kenobi and Hett

DC77 wrote:Kenobi himself is then given a solid fight by Hett:

Spoiler:

There should be a considerable gap between ROTS Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan 2 years post ROTS due to being weakened as a result of the deaths and collapse of the Jedi order.

Star Wars: The Last One Standing wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook wrote:Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.

And we see that Yoda is impacted by these deaths in the same way.

Star Wars: Head to Head wrote:As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Eyes closed, Yoda gave himself up to the Force. Yes, there it was — the sense of someone reaching for him. Almost, he succeeded. Something brushed close to Yoda … no, someone, someone who felt familiar. And then, suddenly, shock waves ripped through the Force. Jedi are dying.

The same source notes that it's due to this that Darth Vader, who is below the TPM crew, would be "too powerful" for Yoda to handle.

Star Wars: Head to Head wrote:Vader proves too powerful for the venerable Jedi Master, who awaits a new hope to help bring balance to the force. He is not as fast or agile as he once was.

While the time difference is larger with Yoda vs Vader, it's still 2 years of wallowing on a desert, lamenting over the deaths of your comrades that once amped you should be enough time to where the connection to ROTS Obi-Wan and 2 years after is disparate enough to break a hole in your chain.

Moreover, there's something important to note in the last paragraph of the fight.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Kenobi when realizing he is fighting for Luke was essentially able to one-shot Hett, calling into question Kenobi's output previous to this moment.

Kenobi was in a similar state of mind when fighting against Anakin, in which both times having an epiphany that results in higher output.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

IV. Wyyrlok

DC77 wrote:Wyyrlok, as you know, is then able to duel Reborn Krayt and not get outright ended immediately. Which given the degrees of separation present here puts him firmly above Mara, who is buried in this chain, a chain that has at least a couple of one shot gaps between top and bottom. Even if I'm wrong on some individual points or placements here, the extent to which I would have to be misinterpreting the material for Wyyrlok to be below Mara is insane. I truly don't think you envision that I'm incorrect to such a degree, and will thus ask you to cease this nonsense, and give Krayt and Wyyrlok their rightful places as powerhouses well above the likes of Jade.

Wyyrlok doesn't scale to Krayt at all. Wyyrlok is "far outstripped" by even Vong Krayt.

Star Wars Insider #88 wrote:"His knowledge of the rituals and and lore of the Sith is unparalleled, and his dark side abilities are surpassed only by Krayt."

Star Wars: Insider #113 wrote:Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.

Who as you pointed out, is a far cry from Reborn Krayt.

Star Wars: Legacy--War wrote:I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.

And moreover, Wyyrlok being able to deflect a couple saber strikes against a vastly superior opponent isn't indicative of any sort of parity needed for your chain to hold, due to you also not quantifying that all of the gaps added together equate to multiple one-shot gaps as you claim.

DC77: wrote:To be frank EC, your post did not live up to my high, one might almost say great, expectations. I can quite literally ignore every single point made within it if I so wish, and be none the worse for wear. All you've done is present scaling for Mara that, while impressive, does little to tie her to Wyyrlok in any meaningful fashion. As a result I don't really feel inclined to address anything you wrote, and will instead lay out my own superior method of comparison, which places Wyyrlok solidly above Mara. Moving on...

And this is a mistake on your part.

You're argument requires for every single link to hold - with no room allowed for unquantifiable or outright debunked links - and then quantify that those links equate to multiple one-shot gaps to put Wyyrlok on top. Meanwhile, my argument is quite simple, in that Mara scales over TKing moon+ mass and can operate in not only extremely fast - but in literal and quantifiable nanoseconds in a medium in which they actively try not to portray their characters as powerful, which requires an output that you haven't shown Wyyrlok capable of in the slightest.

But there is an appeal that I feel I didn't use nearly enough in my previous post.

An Appeal to Intuition and Hype

As stated earlier, Mara Jade Skywalker scales above Kyp Durron, who is hyped up to be on of the most powerful Force users of his time. There are numerous accolades that speak to his sheer raw power and potential in the Force.

Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice wrote:‘Luke remembered the dark-haired teen Han had rescued from the black spice mines. When Luke had used a Jedi testing technique to see if Kyp had potential to use the Force, the boy’s response had knocked Luke across the room. In his entire Jedi search, Luke had never encountered such power.‘

Essential Guide to Characters wrote:‘Luke Skywalker tested Kyp’s Jedi power potential. What he discovered was the strongest Force presence he had known since his Masters, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda.‘

The New Jedi Order: Yselia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.

Even enjoying loose comparisons to Luke Skywalker, the Grandmaster of the New Jedi Order and son of the Chosen One.

New Jedi Order - Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial wrote:But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

And even Luke considering Kyp with the help of Exar Kun to be his "greatest enemy," presumably having Palpatine in mind who he had just faced two years earlier.



Why is Kyp the greatest though? It's largely due to his power in the Force.

I, Jedi wrote:‘Kyp’s presence seemed to put a spark back into Master Skywalker-the spark that had been diminished since Gantoris’ death. Kyp proved almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there. With only a minimum of training, he blasted on past all of us in terms of what he could do.’

Jedi Academy II: Darth Apprentice wrote:‘In little more than a week of intensive work, Kyp had surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students.’

Though you can chalk it up to being under the influence of Exar Kun's own power, but we know for a fact that Kyp grows stronger later on.

Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:The academy’s first year was marked by unanticipated events, including the resurrection of Exar Kun’s spirit, which resulted in the death of Gantoris and the dark side seduction of Kyp Durron. Mara Jade, Corran Horn, and Kyle Katarn left the praxeum for different reasons, but each eventually returned to resume training. Although critics suggested that Luke Skywalker might have done better to begin with fewer students, all the surviving students were stronger and more united by their experiences, and better prepared for service to the New Republic.

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

All of Kyp's hype culminates in the Dovin Basal feat, which it's impressiveness was outlined earlier and left unanswered.

Spoiler:

This is Kyp's magnum opus feat, and more than lives up to his hype of becoming the "greatest of us all" and drawing on the power that is reminiscent of Yoda's according to Luke. Kyp was completely confident in his ability to accomplish the feat and is proven himself correct in every aspect except maybe being stronger than Luke, which the author backtracked on.

In comparison, Wyyrlok is simply a "second to the Emperor" character, likely above everyone else but substantially below the main guy. He doesn't nearly enjoy as many power accolades or hype, and does nothing of note regarding overt showings of Force power relative to his era or medium. I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but the simple answer is Kyp has substantially better hype and accolades placing him in the vicinity of his era's number one, while Wyyrlok pales in comparison to his era's number one.

VI. Conclusion

Here are all the chains that have been debunked, even if it's plausible that some of these still hold, you must prove that all of them hold for the chain to remain.

- Mara to Aurra.
- Dooku to Kenobi.
- Kenobi to Hett.
- Wyyrlok to Krayt

Mara has a lot more going for her when compared to Aurra, who almost gets outright TP dominated by by a weaker Jacen. Dooku and Kenobi's respective performances are faulty due to the circumstances that uniquely allow for Kenobi to perform. Kenobi should be vastly weakened from his ROTS self, and even then he gets one-shot when he actually tries against Hett. And Wyyrlok doesn't hold a candle to Vong Krayt, let alone peak Reborn Krayt who you're trying to scale Wyyrlok to.

Meanwhile Mara has scales above significantly better hype, accolades, and feats relative to a medium where the authors are actively downplaying what a Force user is capable of for the sake of the story.

Mara still wins.

DC77's Twist

1) Scaling: Rebuttals To Rebuttals

A) Aurra Sing

Before I dive into my actual response to the claims EC has put forth regarding Aurra's performance against Jacen, I'd like to call attention to the fact that nothing he posted was a direct rebuttal to my points on the fight. He has completely neglected to cover anything relating to the actual physical contest between the two, so Sing's ability to land physical blows, tank Jacen's pain induced TK etc etc, is still valid. This'll become relevant shortly. But first:

Here we see Jacen was in the process of TP dominating Aurra, and is only unsuccessful due to losing his concentration when Aurra activates the detonator.

This is perhaps the most dishonest framing of the engagement you could possibly have presented. Even going as far as to only post the final part of the TP exchange. I've been discussing every major topic related to LOTF for years, so EC, when I ask this, I do so in all seriousness. How on earth did you think you could get away with this? With that question now posed, let's try reading, shall we?:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.

"Wait," he repeated.

Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.

Take note of the underlined sections. First thing to emphasise is that Aurra was distracted. She wasn't expecting a TP attack, least of all from someone as powerful as Jacen. Second, Solo is explicitly noted to be channeling very specific emotions here. Namely rage and fear, both of which are unnaturally heightened due to the circumstances. His daughter is in danger, which is not a situation he typically finds himself in. And considering the fact that she forms the crux of his motivation throughout the series (he wants the galaxy under his order so she can grow up in a peaceful universe without conflict or death), it makes sense that her life being threatened would enhance his capabilities. To cement the fact that Jacen is very obviously amped, the next time Allana is in trouble, here's what happens:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:Luke felt the wave of hatred flow through him. It was so strong it felt like a kick in the gut, and he wondered for an instant if Jacen had perfected some new Force attack.

But no, the undercurrent was of frustration, helplessness, even fear. It was no attack.

His passive energies become enough to physically hurt his superior in Luke, a level of output he'd never shown himself to be remotely capable of before that point. Furthermore:

Near TP dominating another Force user requires one of the largest disparities in the mythos. For example, we have Luke Skywalker needing to root himself in the heart of the Force to stave off UnuThul's TK.

But here UnuThul admits he can't TP Jacen, who would likely be one-shot by the same TK used against Luke.

There is no evidence that overpowering someone with TP requires a force disparity on the level that you think it does. The quote from Jacen is explicitly referencing an active domination/stripping of control to make somebody wholly subservient to your will. Which, let's be clear here, Jacen never does against Aurra. He channels everything he has with a circumstantial amp + the element of surprise, and is only able to hold her momentarily to a single command. With his concentration being shattered by something as simple as a detonator switch activating. So congratulations EC, you have once again proven that Aurra measures up favourably to Jacen.

Now for the most direct comparison between Jade and Sing. Beyond the fact that Solo is much more powerful than Mara:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

He also doesn't think she should be able to lay a hand on him, with him demeaning her abilities next to his, even from a pure augmentation standpoint. He attributes her doing so to the lacking space/tight environment. Something which wasn't present during the duel with Aurra, and yet she was still very much fast and capable enough to tag Jacen. It's clear as day that Mara is just flat out capped below Sing.

B) Obi-Wan Kenobi

Okay, so let's be clear about this. Your first point:

The gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin is "enormous," the former only able to close the gap due to his familiarity with Anakin and emotional maturity.

Addresses absolutely nothing that I said. My claim was that Kenobi doing a marathon of a duel against Anakin is much better than Dooku getting clobbered in 12 seconds flat. The Gillard quote you posted that somehow "debunks" that statement simply says that Anakin is better than Kenobi, and Obi-Wan only wins because Anakin gets emotional and makes mistakes (this being how the lesser duellist "closes the gap"). Which is evident from the movie, wherein Vader tactically fucks up by attempting to perform a move he's not capable of. That says nothing about the actual augmentation/power comparison between Kenobi and Dooku, which has Obi-Wan looking much better than the guy who gets pasted in 12 seconds. As to your points about mental state:

Here's an example of Anakin's mental state going into the fight.

It clearly doesn't affect Anakin's actual performance in the fight. As is obvious from the quotes saying that he's drawing more deeply into the force than ever before. Something which likewise applies to Kenobi. Rendering this:

And even then, we have a much more reliable indicator of the disparity between Kenobi and Dooku.

Utterly, totally and completely invalid.

To be as blunt as possible, my initial claim that a knowledge of Anakin's moveset that goes the other way as well wouldn't turn a 12 second duel into a multi-minute one was not actually addressed. The following:

NevesYtneves (DC77) wrote:Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

Still stands.

C) Darth Krayt

Your analysis of Hett's duel with Kenobi, to be frank, is also lacking. You put forth that Kenobi is hindered combatively as a result of the Jedi deaths that occurred due to O66:

There should be a considerable gap between ROTS Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan 2 years post ROTS due to being weakened as a result of the deaths and collapse of the Jedi order.

But neither of the quotes you posted state as much. They merely note that Kenobi has suffered emotionally, and that he can no longer feed on the Jedi as he used to. Neither of these things preclude him still keeping up to par through other factors. Which is outright stated in the fight itself:

The Life Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat.

Ben does not consider that he has not wielded a saber in combat for ages, but instead focuses on the fight itself, knowing that his reflexes are well practiced and have not declined. From an augmentation perspective Kenobi is doing just fine. As for this point:

Kenobi when realizing he is fighting for Luke was essentially able to one-shot Hett, calling into question Kenobi's output previous to this moment.

Fighters motives circulate in their head all the time. Kenobi's thought process correlating with his victory does not necessitate an increase in output caused by said thought process. Luke was who he was fighting for the whole time, so it's weird to say that randomly thinking of him would increase Ben's prowess. But even if it did:

Lone Wolf wrote:No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn’t know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul’s singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

Obi-Wan with identical motivation has generated enough power that he begins to be torn to pieces. With his speed surpassing even that of Yoda, Sids and the likes. So if you wish to put forth that a ROTS titan+ tier combatant driven by mega energy can easily put down a Hett who's already been grilled across an entire fight... okay, I guess? Not sure how that remotely helps you.

D) Darth Wyyrlok

To wrap up the scaling defences, we have the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight. Which you woefully misinterpreted my points on. Starting with:

Wyyrlok doesn't scale to Krayt at all. Wyyrlok is "far outstripped" by even Vong Krayt.

Addressing phantom positions might allow you to look as though you've offered meaningful contributions to this debate. But it's not a response to my actual argument. Which was:

NevesYtneves (DC77) wrote:Wyyrlok, as you know, is then able to duel Reborn Krayt and not get outright ended immediately. Which given the degrees of separation present here puts him firmly above Mara, who is buried in this chain, a chain that has at least a couple of one shot gaps between top and bottom.

Wyyrlok not getting outright ended immediately places him above Mara. This is just self-evidently true. As a simple point of comparison, Vos gets insta-ragdolled by Dooku, who is still several gaps of separation below Reborn Krayt. With Vos himself being a few spaces above Mara. Despite that, Wyyrlok doesn't meet the same fate against Krayt that Quinlan does against the Count.

As clear as 1+1=2 is the fact that Wyyrlok shreds Jade.

2) An Appeal To Intuitively Nonsense Hype

So... let's get through this shall we:

As stated earlier, Mara Jade Skywalker scales above Kyp Durron, who is hyped up to be on of the most powerful Force users of his time. There are numerous accolades that speak to his sheer raw power and potential in the Force.

For starters, the appeals to potential are completely irrelevant. A character having the ability for greatness and actually accomplishing it are two very different things. And as we'll see soon, Kyp's combative ability is very lacking in indicators that put it high. In the mean time though, if you want to post generic power accolades:

Legacy #7 wrote:Yes, and yet you have brought me knowledge greater than your failure, there is a Skywalker. And he is powerful in the Force... he is very powerful indeed.

Iterations of Cade that are laughably below Wyyrlok have plenty of those in store. Moving on...

Even enjoying loose comparisons to Luke Skywalker, the Grandmaster of the New Jedi Order and son of the Chosen One.

As far as comparisons with Luke go, your evidence is poor. Skidder himelf notes that there's multiple Jedi as powerful as Luke, indicating a clear lack of knowledge on how powerful he actually is. Likewise Kyp is completely oblivious, as confirmed by the author of the book you're citing, and we've no reason to believe Tahiri is in the know either. All 3 of these are overruled by the littany of evidence painting Skywalker as infinitely more powerful than anyone in the NJO. Furthermore:

And even Luke considering Kyp with the help of Exar Kun to be his "greatest enemy," presumably having Palpatine in mind who he had just faced two years earlier.

I'm going to presume here that you don't seriously think Kyp is more powerful than Sids but below Mara. Not in a section that supposedly appeals to intuition. I don't really have any reason to take this seriously, but I'll humour you. The quote states that under Kun's tuetalage Kyp reaches that level of threat. Indicating that Exar's teaching is the primary cause of Durron being considered Luke's greatest adversary. Which we can attribute to him knowing techniques as a result of his training that render JA Luke helpless, regardless of how the two stack up power to power. Thereby allowing him to be a greater threat than Sheev, but not more powerful. Making this inapplicable to a Mara vs Wyyrlok fight.

All of Kyp's hype culminates in the Dovin Basal feat, which it's impressiveness was outlined earlier and left unanswered.

Because either Wyyrlok scales above it anyway since he has direct connectivity with Mara, ensuring that it's unimpressive, or it's impressive, but not reflective of Kyp's standard output. Since he's clearly tapping into deeper reserves/force potential. With said potential, as you yourself noted, being akin to Yoda's.

In short, there's nothing "intuitive" about Mara being above Wyyrlok. To reach that conclusion you have to take the words of fallible characters that are actively contradicted, and tie her to Kyp's raw power on top of that, which is obviously not reflective of Mara's actual combative standing. Even then it's merely assumptions, not direct connections. By contrast, my scaling chain is simple, clear and wholly relevant. And you've yet to meaningfully refute it.

Game. Set. Match.

Wyyrlok wins.

THE CULMINATION

A) Regarding Aurra Sing vs Jacen

DC77 wrote:Before I dive into my actual response to the claims EC has put forth regarding Aurra's performance against Jacen, I'd like to call attention to the fact that nothing he posted was a direct rebuttal to my points on the fight. He has completely neglected to cover anything relating to the actual physical contest between the two, so Sing's ability to land physical blows, tank Jacen's pain induced TK etc etc, is still valid.

The crux of the point made in my last post was that TP domination in of itself is enough to prove that regardless of the physical strikes attained later - the gap is much more vast between Aurra and Jacen rather than Jacen and Mara, due to their respective performances and Jacen being much stronger when fighting Mara. While this point still holds, in retrospect I should have attacked your rebuttal on all fronts instead of one, so I'll aim to do that now.

DC77 wrote:Take note of the underlined sections. Sing is able to compete with his speed, knock him around with physical attacks that he wasn't fast enough to respond to, and soak up his force push so well that she can even disarm him in the middle of it.

Context matters. How on earth did you think you could get away with this?

All of her attacks on Jacen are when Aurra leverages distractions to her advantage.

Full fight:

Spoiler:

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen's heart dropped through the bottom of his stom-ach. His arm shot out without conscious thought, and the detonator floated into his hand almost before he realized he had summoned it.

Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

First off, Jacen had his focus solely on the detonator flying towards his daughter, which allowed Aurra to "already" be attacking Jacen, who barely brought up his saber in time to block, and even after this still has to focus on the neutralizing the detonator. So, as a result of Jacen being caught off balanced, Aurra is able to land a bunch of hits on him, which wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the detonator being a distraction.

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his Hghtsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

This is shown later in the fight. As the fight progresses, Jacen is able to essentially ragdoll Aurra by "holding his Force shove," which consenquently sends Aurra flying.

At this point, Jacen is able to get back up and is about to use Force lightning on Aurra, but holds himself back from unleashing his "full power" due to Allana.

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

At which point Aurra yet again takes advantage of Jacen's "hesitation."

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him.

Jacen having to open himself fully to the Force again is also indicative that Jacen hadn't been using his full powers previous to this moment, presumably due to the distractions. This point will be useful later.

To recap, all of Aurra's advantages are wholly due to the distractions she leverages against Jacen, whether it be the detonator or his daughter entering the room, and when Jacen able to use the Force, he TP dominates her and ragdolls.

None of these circumstances are present in his fight with Mara.

DC77 wrote:Take note of the underlined sections. First thing to emphasise is that Aurra was distracted. She wasn't expecting a TP attack, least of all from someone as powerful as Jacen.

But when Jacen is distracted, it doesn't matter?

Regardless, while it's true that he took her by surprise, the point that TP domination requires a vast difference in power still holds regardless of whether she was taken by surprise or not. She was still unable to break free from Jacen's domination without leveraging distractions against him.

DC77 wrote:Second, Solo is explicitly noted to be channeling very specific emotions here. Namely rage and fear, both of which are unnaturally heightened due to the circumstances. His daughter is in danger, which is not a situation he typically finds himself in. And considering the fact that she forms the crux of his motivation throughout the series (he wants the galaxy under his order so she can grow up in a peaceful universe without conflict or death), it makes sense that her life being threatened would enhance his capabilities. To cement the fact that Jacen is very obviously amped, the next time Allana is in trouble, here's what happens:

Sure, rage and fear may increase raw power, but don't help at all with dealing with distractions, and even serves as a detriment, as he cannot bring his full power to bear with distractions present.

To reiterate, Jacen is indirectly stated to not be using his full might against Aurra. The text has to note that Jacen "opened himself fully" twice within the fight, first when Jacen TPs Aurra, and second when Jacen prepares to cast his Force lightning. The text mentioning this twice indicates that the previous moments preceding this are when he's not using his full power, which would likely be due to the distractions.

So not only does his rage and fear not help him with distractions, but the power he gets from his emotions are implicitly not being used against Aurra. As the core of your argument predicates on Jacen's distractions not mattering, your argument fails utterly.

You also fail to address the vast gap between Aurra and Jacen, a gap that, based on the information we have, is much larger than the gap between Jacen and Mara.

DC77 wrote:There is no evidence that overpowering someone with TP requires a force disparity on the level that you think it does. The quote from Jacen is explicitly referencing an active domination/stripping of control to make somebody wholly subservient to your will. Which, let's be clear here, Jacen never does against Aurra.

Jacen demonstrably was capable, Aurra was "simply not strong enough" to defend his TP, and subsequently it would've happened to Aurra had it not been for distracting Jacen with the detonator. And the end-goal of complete subservience in UnuThul/Jacen's case is a detail that is irrelevant as the claim is that TP domination in of itself represents the vast disparity, not the objective of the TP.

Character A TKs character B intending to incapacitate rather than kill, while character X TKs character Y intending to kill. Both require a level of exertion that completely incapacitates the opposition to the point that they cannot counter-attack, which results in a victory. Same thing applies here.

And since the claim that UnuThul can one-shot Jacen has been unanswered, Jacen without distractions can subsequently one-shot Aurra. This is even backed up in the fight, before Jacen uses his "full power," he is already ragdolling Aurra. An even more powerful Jacen against Mara hasn't been shown to do this, even with less favorable circumstances than Aurra, which will be delved into shortly.

DC77 wrote:With his concentration being shattered by something as simple as a detonator switch activating.

What.

It's not about the simple act of flipping a switch, it's about stopping it from trying to reach his daughter, whose safety Jacen has on his mind throughout the entire fight.

DC77 wrote:Now for the most direct comparison between Jade and Sing. Beyond the fact that Solo is much more powerful than Mara.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

He also doesn't think she should be able to lay a hand on him, with him demeaning her abilities next to his, even from a pure augmentation standpoint.

The main difference between both the Aurra and Mara fight is that Aurra is only able to land blows when the gap is closed, and when Jacen is wrong-footed due to distractions. The latter is not present here with Mara, as there is no detonator or Allana shenanigans. Also, a large part of my first post was detailing how she is faster than more powerful opponents in Joruus C'baoth, which you left uncontested. The same applies to her fight with Jacen.

But Mara got the element of surprise on him.

This element of surprise isn't long-lasting though, as he is able to reorient himself as the fight continues, unlike against Aurra.

But Caedus was injured.

So was Mara. And still Mara was able to deplete Caedus' reserves much more faster than vice versa.

DC77 wrote:He attributes her doing so to the lacking space/tight environment.

No he doesn't.

At most he is theorizing how his Force abilities come into play with larger space, there is a vast leap in assumption being made that he'd just be able to ragdoll and TP dominate her as he does to Aurra without distractions, as he's already weakening blow after blow. In contrast with Aurra, Mara was able to drive Caedus back with her superior saber technique, his "strength ebbing" and strength in the Force "dwindling each time."

This is something he reiterates in The Unifying Force, and there's nothing indicating he has grown in saber skill since then up to Sacrifice.

New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force wrote:Sensing, then, that someone was watching him, he deactivated the blade in sudden self-consciousness.

He sighed and sat down. He was a decent lightsaber master and sai acrobat, but nowhere near as skilled as Luke, Kyp, Mara, Corran-or Anakin. His heart just wasn't in it.

DC77 wrote:Something which wasn't present during the duel with Aurra,

It very much was present. Before Jacen even deactivated the detonator, Aurra closed the gap and was already was striking at Jacen and getting gut-punched.

DC77 wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch.

As proven earlier, even when he's not opening himself fully, he's still ragdolling her.

DC77 wrote:and yet she was still very much fast and capable enough to tag Jacen.

When he's not opening himself fully to the Force, distracted and wrong-footed, sure.

B) Regarding Obi-Wan vs Anakin

DC77 wrote:Okay, so let's be clear about this. Your first point:

EmperorCaedus wrote:The gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin is "enormous," the former only able to close the gap due to his familiarity with Anakin and emotional maturity.

Addresses absolutely nothing that I said. My claim was that Kenobi doing a marathon of a duel against Anakin is much better than Dooku getting clobbered in 12 seconds flat.

?? Which I disproved due to proving the gap is closer due to emotional factors that wouldn't apply while trying to scale in a vacuum.

DC77 wrote:Gillard quote you posted that somehow "debunks" that statement simply says that Anakin is better than Kenobi, and Obi-Wan only wins because Anakin gets emotional and makes mistakes (this being how the lesser duellist "closes the gap"). Which is evident from the movie, wherein Vader tactically fucks up by attempting to perform a move he's not capable of.

This plays into my point though. Anakin getting emotional and making mistakes is something that demonstrably doesn't apply to his fight against Dooku, the mindset difference between both iterations of Anakin are too vast to be compared to one another.

Anakin against Dooku is seeing everything Dooku is about to do, and accurately reacts to everything Dooku has done, so much so that Dooku losing is already an inevitability. In this mindset Anakin is the perfect fighter.

This is demonstrably not the case against Kenobi. Vader had clouded judgement, and tried to brutalize Kenobi without weighing all the possibilities as he does with Dooku. Vader is abandoning basic principles of fighting, he didn't leverage his environment and kept chasing Kenobi down. This would heavily apply to his augmentation in both fights.

DC77 wrote:That says nothing about the actual augmentation/power comparison between Kenobi and Dooku, which has Obi-Wan looking much better than the guy who gets pasted in 12 seconds.

The above applies to the power comparisons, but more can be extrapolated upon though. Kenobi defending Anakin's strikes does not indicate similar augmentation at all.

Kenobi's fighting style lends itself to conserving energy moreso than either Anakin or Dooku, and even "preserves" Kenobi's reserves which explains why Kenobi didn't get tired as easily.

Star Wars: Book of Jedi wrote:“Yet the minimalist defense preserves the Jedi's reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent, and an exhausted enemy will eventually slip up, allowing a Form III master to score a victory.”

Despite Kenobi "barely" having to think about parrying, and expending substantially less energy into these parrys, he still is barely able to keep up and is actively trying to distract Vader every chance he gets, in a "desperate" effort to slow him down.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other’s favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin’s attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt … familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.

This is something Dooku doesn't have the luxury of, as he is user of Makashi.

DC77 wrote:It clearly doesn't affect Anakin's actual performance in the fight. As is obvious from the quotes saying that he's drawing more deeply into the force than ever before. Something which likewise applies to Kenobi. Rendering this:

As stated earlier, Anakin's performance is severely hampered against Kenobi rather than against Dooku. Kenobi is expending significantly less energy into parrying while Anakin is expending significantly more energy into chasing Kenobi down and maintaining the onslaught. Definitely not indicative of the parity necessary for your chain hold.

But Obi-Wan TK stalemated Anakin.

Obi-Wan had much more time to prepare his reserves due to expending less energy compared to Anakin, so he had more energy to prepare for the attack rather than Anakin. This explanation gels with the vast amount of sources indicating the gap between a tier 8 and 9 to be "enormous."

DC77 wrote:To be as blunt as possible, my initial claim that a knowledge of Anakin's moveset that goes the other way as well wouldn't turn a 12 second duel into a multi-minute one was not actually addressed.

Knowledge of eachother's movesets is only stated to be an advantage for Kenobi, not Anakin. In other words both have knowledge of eachother's movesets but only Kenobi benefits from this. Thus, it renders this a much more apt comparison between Kenobi and Dooku.

C) Regarding Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Hett

DC77 wrote:But neither of the quotes you posted state as much. They merely note that Kenobi has suffered emotionally, and that he can no longer feed on the Jedi as he used to.

The first quote point blank states that the once humming presence of the Jedi "fed him," referring it specifically to "Force-ability," and his broken spirit "slowed him down" as proven with Yoda. You never directly refuted the Yoda / Obi-Wan comparisons, thus this still holds.

DC77 wrote:Neither of these things preclude him still keeping up to par through other factors. Which is outright stated in the fight itself:

The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat.

Ben does not consider that he has not wielded a saber in combat for ages, but instead focuses on the fight itself, knowing that his reflexes are well practiced and have not declined. From an augmentation perspective Kenobi is doing just fine.

Yoda also is stated to practice lightsaber techniques and hone his skills in the Force, but despite this he still turns out to be sub-Vader per Head-to-Head, who is magnitudes below Yoda in Revenge of the Sith. Obi-Wan having the same emotional response and also continuing to practice Jedi skills would also be applicable to this, and as stated earlier, you have never directly refuted the comparisons to Yoda.

Yoda is also stated to practice Jedi exercises as well - and he still ends up being sub-Vader according to Head to Head which you didn't bother to address.

Star Wars Saga Edition Force Unleashed Campaign Guide wrote:Finally, a few Jedi choose to fade away into the backdrop of the galaxy, biding their time until they can act. They do not abandon their lives as Jedi, but they do not actively seek to draw the Empire's attention. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi choose this life, as does the Togruta Jedi Shaak Ti. By retreating into the shadows, these individuals ensure that the Empire's Jedi hunters do not find them, allowing them to prepare for a time in the future when they will once again step onto the galactic stage. These Jedi spend their days honing their skills with the Force, meditating and practicing their lightsaber techniques. They believe that their destiny has not been yet fulfilled, and that only the guidance of the Force, not their own desire to strike back at the Empire, is the true path to success.

So... doesn't help your case in the slightest.

And this makes sense in universe too. Obi-Wan and Yoda were fighting in one of the most gruesome wars in 1,000 years - constantly fighting notable foes and being pushed to their absolute limits. Meanwhile for the last two years - Obi-Wan has been sitting around wallowing and doing nothing of note. Compare this to Obi-Wan fighting Dooku, Maul, and several other noteworthy foes within the span of weeks at a time - and it's clear that Obi-Wan's skill likely atrophied regardless of whether he practiced Jedi exercises.

And on top of that, there is quite a leap in assumption with the argument you make and the quote you've cited. All Obi-Wan says is that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull - not that they haven't dulled at all. This means that it still makes room for Obi-Wan to have atrophied, and combine that with everything else, and it's the most likely scenario here.

And even after this, Obi-Wan has notable environmental hindrances that Hett uses to his advantage.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

Obi-Wan says that he's not deflecting Hett's attacks with ease, and attributes this to the terrain, implying that if they were fighting on equal ground, Obi-Wan would be blocking his blows with ease.

Why would the terrain matter that much?

As stated earlier, Obi-Wan would've blocked his blows with ease if it weren't for the terrain, which is indicative of a large gap. Saying otherwise would be baseless. DC77's supposed intuition should not at all supersede Obi-Wan's own opinion.

DC77 wrote:Fighters motives circulate in their head all the time. Kenobi's thought process correlating with his victory does not necessitate an increase in output caused by said thought process.

So your argument is that it's all just one big coincidence, and you provide 0 evidence in favor of of your stance... right.

Let's look at the quotes again.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.

Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

So essentially he expresses his concern over killing Hett, but actively knows that he cannot continue fighting, but by then by sheer coincidence, when he thinks of Luke, he magically one-shots. Just a coincidence brao.

DC77 wrote:Luke was who he was fighting for the whole time, so it's weird to say that randomly thinking of him would increase Ben's prowess.

This isn't true at all.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Ben suspected that Hett knew nothing about Luke, if only because Luke was still alive. If Hett's sole purpose on Tatooine had been to kill Luke, Luke would probably be dead already. Now, as Hett approached, Ben ban-ished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind.

Before they fight, Obi-Wan "banished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind." Through and through, the text makes it abundantly clear that Hett is no where near Obi-Wan when he actually tries, and this isn't even accounting Obi-Wan's own skill atrophying since Revenge of the Sith.

DC77 wrote:But even if it did:

Lone Wolf wrote:No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn’t know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul’s singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

Obi-Wan with identical motivation has generated enough power that he begins to be torn to pieces. With his speed surpassing even that of Yoda, Sids and the likes. So if you wish to put forth that a ROTS titan+ tier combatant driven by mega energy can easily put down a Hett who's already been grilled across an entire fight... okay, I guess? Not sure how that remotely helps you.

The quote cited doesn't say what you're arguing at all. Just because one hasn't duplicated the feat doesn't mean one isn't capable of duplicating it. This explanation gels with the Gillard tiers among other things, in which Sidious, Yoda and Anakin are all 9s while Obi-Wan is "enormously" below them, being an 8.

And even then, I hardly believe this translates to a combative scenario. Obi-Wan here is solely focused on running and the speed at which he is moving. In a combative setting,  he'd need to focus on the environment, opponent's attacks, parrying, and many other factors rather than solely speed.

DC77 wrote:To wrap up the scaling defences, we have the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight. Which you woefully misinterpreted my points on. Starting with:

EmperorCaedus wrote:Wyyrlok doesn't scale to Krayt at all. Wyyrlok is "far outstripped" by even Vong Krayt.

Addressing phantom positions might allow you to look as though you've offered meaningful contributions to this debate. But it's not a response to my actual argument. Which was:

What.

If I misinterpreted you feel free to correct me, but you're arguing that Wyyrlok benefits from Krayt's scaling due to their fight. Is that not what scaling is?

D) Continuing Kyp Durron rebuttals + further arguments

DC77 wrote:For starters, the appeals to potential are completely irrelevant. A character having the ability for greatness and actually accomplishing it are two very different things.

Appeals to potential are wholly relevant in this case. Kyp Durron at the time of performing the Dovin Basal is in his mid-thirties, and has been training under Luke Skywalker, fighting one of the greatest and most gruesome wars the galaxy has ever faced - the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong in which Kyp was one of the key players. Combine this with the accolades and Dovin Basal and it's clear as day that Kyp has actualized or is at the very least marginally below his Yodian potential.

And Yoda is without a doubt the most powerful Jedi who has ever lived up until Revenge of the Sith.

StarWars.com wrote:While he is the most powerful Jedi, it’s Yoda’s wisdom that continues to resonate with fans today.

Hasbro: Yoda action figure wrote:On Coruscant, Yoda and the Emperor meet in the ultimate confrontation between the galaxy's most powerful masters of the Force.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

DC77 wrote:And as we'll see soon, Kyp's combative ability is very lacking in indicators that put it high.

Mara scales above Kyp's power, not his combative prowess. So even if Kyp is lacking in combative ability, it's an irrelevant point.

DC77 wrote:In the mean time though, if you want to post generic power accolades:

Legacy #7 wrote:Yes, and yet you have brought me knowledge greater than your failure, there is a Skywalker. And he is powerful in the Force... he is very powerful indeed.

Iterations of Cade that are laughably below Wyyrlok have plenty of those in store.

That's all Cade has? He's just very powerful? You're going to need a lot more than that, as there's a whole lot more than can be delved into for Kyp as I'll explain now.

Realizing Kyp Durron's power, defeating Luke Skywalker isn't all surprising.

Jedi Academy III wrote:"She whispered, "Could Kyp have resurrected the Sun Crusher from the core of Yavin?"

Han blinked. "How could he possibly do that?"

If Kyp Durron has managed that, then his power is far greater even than we feared. No wonder he was able to defeat Master Skywalker."

The entire Jedi order would need to collectively pool their powers in order to replicate Kyp's feat.

Jedi Academy II wrote:"If we pool our Jedi powers, we can resurrect the Sun Crusher, tear it out from the core of Yavin. We can take it and go hunt the Imperials. What could be a clearer mission for us? Why are we just hiding here on this backwater moon?"

Kyp's presence is described as a "black whirlpool of twisted Force" and causes a "great disturbance in the Force."

Jedi Academy II wrote:Luke Skywalker awoke from another series of nightmares. He sat bolt upright on his pallet, instantly aware. He had felt a great disturbance in the Force. Something was not right.

He got up, moving cautiously as he sent out his thoughts to check on his students: Kirana Ti, Dorsk 81, the new Calamarian arrival Cilghal, Streen, Tionne, Kam Solusar, and all the others. Nothing seemed amiss. They slept soundly--almost too soundly, as if a net of sleep had been cast over them.

When he reached out farther, he was stunned to feel a cold, black whirlpool of twisted Force around the peak of the temple. It stunned him.

Luke sprinted to the door of his chambers, hesitated, then stepped back to retrieve his lightsaber. He marched down the corridors, smoothing his fear as he rode the turbolift to the upper levels of the ancient pyramid.

Calm, Yoda had said, you must remain calm.

But the sight that greeted him under the dawn sky nearly overwhelmed Luke.

The Sun Crusher hung suspended over the temple, still steaming in the morning air, resurrected from its tomb at the core of the gas giant. Kyp Durron spun around to stare at Luke, his black cape swirling with the rapid motion.

Stunned, Luke reeled backward. "How dare you bring that weapon back!" he said. "It goes against all the Jedi knowledge I have taught you."

And Kyp is even more powerful than Luke Skywalker way before mega growth per Corran Horn.

I, Jedi wrote:The despair in her voice found an ally in the fear writhing into my belly. It had never seemed odd to me that Kyp had been able to slam me into a wall because he had always been more powerful than me. Even when I felt the other presence reinforcing him and got hammered by the combination of them, I never imagined that they could be more powerful than Luke Skywalker. I had even rationalized away the dark man's ability to avoid detection as his being talented in that area, just as I was talented in the area of image projection.

The pure arrogance and stupidity of those ideas slammed hard into me.

But wasn't Luke weakened since the events of Dark Empire?

If he's weakened, it's purely in his mind. This doesn't preclude Horn from having an accurate grasp on Luke's power via sensing it.

But his overall power was weakened as well.

Not at all. It's constantly reiterated in Jedi Academy that he's far more powerful than his Dark Empire self, even by Corran Horn himself.

I, Jedi wrote:The Jedi Master looked at me and I felt electricity run through his blue-eyed gaze.
When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.

Jedi Academy: Jedi Search wrote:Luke nodded somberly. The question had been working at the back of his own mind, and he had pondered it deeply. "I can only say that we have seen these terrible examples, and we must learn from them. I myself have touched the dark side and come through stronger and more wary of its powers than ever before. I agree there is a risk, but I cannot believe the New Republic will be safer without a new force of Jedi."

Jedi Academy III wrote:"Luke!" Han cried. He ran to give Luke an enthusiastic hug. "Great to see you up and around again. About time you quit napping." Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater-but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

And Luke himself is more powerful than Reborn Emperor Palpatine as evident in their final encounter.



And it's not in dueling either - Luke is stated OOU and by Leia to be outright overpowering Sidious.

Dark Empire I Audiodrama wrote:LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!

And even is desperate enough to need to fight Luke using unconventional means.

New Essential Chronology wrote:Leia boarded the Eclipse, but defied the Emperor and tried to bring back Luke to the light side. Her efforts allowed Luke to break the hold of evil, and they both turned against Palpatine. The desperate Emperor summoned a huge Force storm, but he could no longer control what he had unleashed.

Palpatine himself is constantly stated to be the most powerful darksider in history.

Vader: The Ultimate Guide wrote:Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Insider #86 wrote:Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

So essentially what we have is NJO Kyp Durron is at the very least rivaling his Yodian potential, who is the most powerful Jedi who had ever lived up until Revenge of the Sith, then we have Dark Lord Kyp Durron under the influence of Exar Kun, who is above Luke, who is above Palpatine, who is the most powerful darksider to have ever lived up until Dark Empire.

Wyyrlok doesn't even remotely match by a comparison of feats, hype or scaling.

DC77 wrote:As far as comparisons with Luke go, your evidence is poor. Skidder himelf notes that there's multiple Jedi as powerful as Luke, indicating a clear lack of knowledge on how powerful he actually is. Likewise Kyp is completely oblivious, as confirmed by the author of the book you're citing, and we've no reason to believe Tahiri is in the know either. All 3 of these are overruled by the littany of evidence painting Skywalker as infinitely more powerful than anyone in the NJO. Furthermore:

You missed the point of my argument entirely.

The point is that the story goes through great lengths to acknowledge Kyp's vast power, moreso than it does for Wyyrlok or anyone he scales to.

And as we know, Cade gives a vastly better fight to Krayt than Wyyrlok gives to Krayt, evidenced by Cade's fight going for an extremely long time off-panel due to the change in location, when Wyyrlok's stays in relatively the same place and is ended in a couple moves. So using Cade's own accolades won't help you in the slightest.

DC77 wrote:I'm going to presume here that you don't seriously think Kyp is more powerful than Sids but below Mara. Not in a section that supposedly appeals to intuition. I don't really have any reason to take this seriously, but I'll humour you. The quote states that under Kun's tuetalage Kyp reaches that level of threat. Indicating that Exar's teaching is the primary cause of Durron being considered Luke's greatest adversary.

As stated earlier, him being under the influence of Kun doesn't matter as Kyp grows powerful enough to atleast be equaled to his Dark Lord self, and it's even implied by the wording that he's definitely a great deal more powerful than he was under Exar Kun.

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

DC77 wrote:Which we can attribute to him knowing techniques as a result of his training that render JA Luke helpless, regardless of how the two stack up power to power. Thereby allowing him to be a greater threat than Sheev, but not more powerful.

Which is an interpretation backed by 0 evidence. Given that as proven earlier we know what criteria Luke takes into account for Kyp being great - and it's largely his Force ability and surpassing all of his students in such a short amount of time.

I, Jedi wrote:‘Kyp’s presence seemed to put a spark back into Master Skywalker-the spark that had been diminished since Gantoris’ death. Kyp proved almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there. With only a minimum of training, he blasted on past all of us in terms of what he could do.’

StarWars.com wrote:‘He [Exar Kun] controlled Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, but in the end, Luke’s students united and were able to finally dispel Kun’s spirit‘

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:‘Kyp travels to Yavin Four to join Luke’s Jedi academy. There, he immerses himself in work, and within days has surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students. He doesn’t socialize with the others, preferring to concentrate on honing his Jedi skills.‘

StarWars.com wrote:‘Skywalker’s first class of Jedi students was an eclectic mix of Force-attuned beings from across the galaxy. Kyp was easily the most powerful, and he quickly grew impatient at Skywalker’s pace of instruction.‘

DC77 wrote:Because either Wyyrlok scales above it anyway since he has direct connectivity with Mara, ensuring that it's unimpressive, or it's impressive, but not reflective of Kyp's standard output. Since he's clearly tapping into deeper reserves/force potential. With said potential, as you yourself noted, being akin to Yoda's.

It's in no way portrayed to be not reflective of Kyp's standard output in pure Force power. He wasn't stated to access hidden reserves, nor is stated to be uniquely amped. He knew he could do it and wasn't surprised when he did it.

DC77 wrote:To reach that conclusion you have to take the words of fallible characters that are actively contradicted, and tie her to Kyp's raw power on top of that, which is obviously not reflective of Mara's actual combative standing

Why wouldn't it be reflective of her combative standing?

You've already conceded that Mara beats the shit out of Jacen in CQC, who by this point has attained complete mastery of the Force:

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:There had to be something that changed the fabric of the galaxy-a tipping point. Meanwhile, Mara was challenging him, pinpointing herself in the tunnels that ran deep under the Kavan countryside, thinking she was still an A-list assassin and that she could take someone who had complete mastery of the Force.

Despite this, Mara is able to level the playing field by "tricks of flesh and blood" and compared to Jacen's superior Force abilities - she is "fast and athletic - coupled with her superior lightsaber mastery highlighted earlier.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:Either way, she was going to get a reaction out of him. She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

And Jacen is never proven wrong in this assessment of himself. While Jacen is indeed more powerful than Mara, that's not at all indicative that she'd get ragdolled by Jacen as Aurra does, add the previous scaling on top of that, and it's clear that she wouldn't.

Akanah, who trained with Luke extensively, assessed that Jacen is as powerful as Luke post-Jedi Academy, which reinforces the scaling that's been established.

Dark Nest I wrote:"You [Jacen] have the same power I once sensed in your uncle Luke…”

E) Conclusion

Let's take a step back for a second and truly assess what's going on here.

Aurra Sing without distractions would've point-blank been TP dominated completely - and even when Jacen isn't drawing on his full power - he ragdolls her.

Dooku is vastly superior to Kenobi as indicated by ragdolling him aboard the Invisible Hand.

It's repeated through a vast many sources that Obi-Wan is simply not in the same tier as Anakin. It's reiterated by Nick Gillard, the RotS novel, and George Lucas himself. Obi-Wan being able to stand a chance against Anakin is predicated on many factors -  form familiarity, form advantages, and notably Anakin's own mindset that's hindering him. The gap between the two in a vacuum is "enormous" -  and no amount of mental gymnastics can disprove this. Thus, trying to reliably scale Obi-Wan to Dooku in light of the circumstances is just absurd, and the only reason the opposition says it works was because of the duration.

A'Sharad Hett is no where near Kenobi. Hett has an inherent environment advantage and without this advantage Obi-Wan would be deflecting his attacks with ease. Upon thinking about Luke, Obi-Wan casually one-shots.

On the other hand, Mara Jade is the clear victor here. She scales above Kyp Durron who is likened to a "black whirlwind of twisted Force" and is stated directly to be a greater threat via power than Reborn Emperor Palpatine, who is the most powerful darksider who had ever lived up until that point. Kyp Durron's power at his peak should rival Yoda's, who is also the most powerful lightsider up until that point. Kyp Durron is able to directly TK massive black holes - whose mass is significantly larger than that of a moon, and after this, and seeing how Luke Skywalker is even more tired than Kyp was, this puts Kyp comfortably in the Grandmaster's range. And finally, Mara Jade shows this off in her encounter with a complete master of the Force, in which she brutalizes him in close-quarters, showing off her superior saber skills, and while she isn't as powerful as Jacen, there's absolutely nothing indicating she'd be ragdolled in the same way Aurra Sing was. On top of this, Mara was able to keep up with Jacen by being "fast and athletic" which ties in to how she was so impressive against a superior Force wielder in C'baoth.

Even if you were to prove Krayt is a complete master of the Force (which you haven't) Wyyrlok gets absolutely trashed by Krayt per the fight itself and the authors. And seemingly you acknowledge this - seeing as you never delve into how well Wyyrlok actually does against Krayt - just that him blocking a couple strikes indicates he's above.

Wyyrlok doesn't remotely compare in feats, hype, scaling, or anything else you can possibly come up with.

Mara wins - and there is no question about it.

A Tale Of Two Combatants

"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.”

Apologies for overshooting the deadline folks. I should have been more punctual with my response time, though I will defend myself by stating that I was so confounded by the sheer stupidity of my opponent's rebuttal that I think it's entirely fair that it took longer to reply than normal. The mental energy I had to summon to respond to this textual drivel was such that I don't think I'll ever be quite the same again. Indeed, I'm quite confident in asserting that my IQ dropped at least 7 points from reading it, and there were times where I thought that I would be as dumb as the person who wrote this nonsense by the time I finished it. But anyhow, I'll get onto the actual rebuttal now.

Scaling: The Final Defence

A) Aurra Sing

First off, Jacen had his focus solely on the detonator flying towards his daughter, which allowed Aurra to "already" be attacking Jacen, who barely brought up his saber in time to block, and even after this still has to focus on the neutralizing the detonator. So, as a result of Jacen being caught off balanced, Aurra is able to land a bunch of hits on him, which wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the detonator being a distraction.

Okay... let's break down this fanfiction shall we? Firstly, Jacen concentrating "solely" on the detonator is not made apparent... anywhere. The text says, and I quote:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:His arm shot out without conscious thought, and the detonator floated into his hand almost before he realized he had summoned it.

Jacen is not focusing at all in the way you're suggesting. Every movement here is unconscious and reflexive. This notion you've put forth that he's somehow hyper-distracted by a detonator that he only needs one hand to effortlessly summon to himself is asinine, and not reflected in the book at all. Likewise, he's not noted as "barely" blocking the blow:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

Like, dude, you literally posted the text for me to read... did you not think I would realise that you were inserting your own words into it? What we have here is Jacen performing a task that is so simple he doesn't have to think about it. All the while his reflexes are on "automatic", and allowing him to counter Sing's initial strike without any stated difficulty. She's not gaining any edge from the detonator. Her first landed hit is after Jacen has caught it casually and blocked her attempted opening. Indicating that it's purely on her own merit. Unless you unironically wish to put forth that Jacen flicking a switch with his other hand is a big deal that completely ruins him... despite him summoning an object to his hand and blocking in one fluid motion just prior.

As the fight progresses, Jacen is able to essentially ragdoll Aurra by "holding his Force shove," which consenquently sends Aurra flying.

This is actually a feat for Aurra. The fact that she's not affected by the shove at all despite Jacen drawing off his pain, and is so resistant to it that she can literally disarm him in the middle of it proves that the two share parity. Her being sent flying is no different than Bastilla doing the same to Revan in KOTOR, but ending up losing the fight badly anyway.

Jacen having to open himself fully to the Force again is also indicative that Jacen hadn't been using his full powers previous to this moment, presumably due to the distractions. This point will be useful later.

Sigh...

Again, you're rewriting what actually happened to suit your purposes.

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy.

Jacen is opening himself up, not to some power that he's been holding back or is unable to manifest due to distractions, but to the power that comes from his emotions, which are unnaturally heightened due to the circumstances. Augmentation is an off the cuff instinctive thing... that goes both ways... and means that naturally Jacen tapping into his deepest and darkest feelings (which are then manifested through FL), is going to produce greater output... that doesn't mean that augmentation comparisons are not a valid proxy for power. I'll remind you that Jacen in this state was sending out waves of power from his passive energies that were physically hurting Luke... of course he's going to be noted as more open to the force

But when Jacen is distracted, it doesn't matter?

Jacen isn't distracted in the TP exchange though. The only instance of this occurring is at the end of the engagement, which has no bearing on the prior events that occur.

Sure, rage and fear may increase raw power, but don't help at all with dealing with distractions, and even serves as a detriment, as he cannot bring his full power to bear with distractions present.

To reiterate, Jacen is indirectly stated to not be using his full might against Aurra. The text has to note that Jacen "opened himself fully" twice within the fight, first when Jacen TPs Aurra, and second when Jacen prepares to cast his Force lightning. The text mentioning this twice indicates that the previous moments preceding this are when he's not using his full power, which would likely be due to the distractions.

Oh boy... you really didn't think this one through did you? Or maybe you did, but your 90 IQ brain couldn't comprehend why it was dumb. Firstly:

Sure, rage and fear may increase raw power

Concession accepted. For the clarification of those reading in case you're not properly following (believe me, I had a hard time grasping how somebody could be so braindead as well), EC just folded on the entire TP exchange being a valid method of comparison between Jacen and Aurra. The very fact that Jacen's raw power is increased renders everything you tried to do here invalid. Which explains why you actually addressed the physical side in this rebuttal... it was a goalpost switch.

The best part is, immediately after:

To reiterate, Jacen is indirectly stated to not be using his full might against Aurra. The text has to note that Jacen "opened himself fully" twice within the fight, first when Jacen TPs Aurra, and second when Jacen prepares to cast his Force lightning

You say this. You do realise that by conceding one line up that Jacen is actually amped in these instances you're admitting he's not using his full might... but actually exceeding it due to an amp. Thereby rendering this "he wasn't using his full power for aug" argument moot. As there's no reason why he wouldn't be, given I've addressed the idea he was meaningfully distracted.

Moving on...

And the end-goal of complete subservience in UnuThul/Jacen's case is a detail that is irrelevant as the claim is that TP domination in of itself represents the vast disparity, not the objective of the TP.

Right, but your evidence for that claim is saying that Thul can't TP Jacen period, despite being > Luke in power, proving that it requires a massive disparity. But Thul never says he can't TP Jacen in the same way Jacen TP's Sing...

Dark Nest: The Joiner King wrote:"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

He says he can't actively remove his control entirely and force him into total subservience like he did to others in the book... which is distinct from and obviously much trickier than what Jacen does to Aurra (simply freezing her for a few seconds).

It's not about the simple act of flipping a switch, it's about stopping it from trying to reach his daughter, whose safety Jacen has on his mind throughout the entire fight.

Um... no:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration.

It's not the thought of stopping the detonator from reaching his daughter that breaks his focus... it's simply a blinking light. He wouldn't have to care about Allana being in danger regardless of the switch being turned on if he retained his TP domination, as that would prevent Sing from pitching it over to where Allana is situated.

Also, a large part of my first post was detailing how she is faster than more powerful opponents in Joruus C'baoth, which you left uncontested. The same applies to her fight with Jacen.

Not really. Jacen explicitly notes that he's faster than Mara, hence why she's "just" fast, whereas he has "total mastery".

No he doesn't.

At most he is theorizing how his Force abilities come into play with larger space, there is a vast leap in assumption being made that he'd just be able to ragdoll and TP dominate her as he does to Aurra without distractions, as he's already weakening blow after blow.

Dude... come on:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.

You really need to take a reading comprehension class. The entirety of this section is about the physical exchange... with Jacen explicitly noting that he doesn't think Mara should be able to touch him, yet he's the one being driven back/losing strength. It's at that point which he notes that he "needs space to fight", indicating he's struggling physically due to the tight environment. So no, it's not just a force power issue.

It very much was present.

Addressed further up.

B) Obi-Wan Kenobi

?? Which I disproved due to proving the gap is closer due to emotional factors that wouldn't apply while trying to scale in a vacuum.

The "emotional factors" explicitly only manifest at the end of the fight wherein they impair Anakin's decision making, hence why he loses. They don't change the entire duel beforehand.

This plays into my point though. Anakin getting emotional and making mistakes is something that demonstrably doesn't apply to his fight against Dooku, the mindset difference between both iterations of Anakin are too vast to be compared to one another.

Anakin against Dooku is seeing everything Dooku is about to do, and accurately reacts to everything Dooku has done, so much so that Dooku losing is already an inevitability. In this mindset Anakin is the perfect fighter.

This doesn't meaningfully compare the two iterations of Anakin at all from a versus debating perspective. The fact that he "doesn't make mistakes" against Dooku only proves he has superior tactics, and isn't braindead enough to attempt to perform a move he knows he can't pull off. It doesn't demonstrate that Kenobi's superior performance against Anakin isn't indicative of greater power. As for the rest of the fight Anakin fights perfectly, much in the same way he does on the IH, as evidenced by both the choreography, and Nick noting that Anakin is physically perfect on Mustafar. He still "accurately reacts to everything his opponent does", and fulfills all the criteria necessary for a performance comparison between Obi-Wan and the Count.

This is demonstrably not the case against Kenobi. Vader had clouded judgement, and tried to brutalize Kenobi without weighing all the possibilities as he does with Dooku. Vader is abandoning basic principles of fighting, he didn't leverage his environment and kept chasing Kenobi down. This would heavily apply to his augmentation in both fights.

There wasn't an environment to leverage? The vast majority of the duel occurs in open spaces, much in the same way Dooku's duel with Anakin takes place in an entirely neutral environment. Moreover, Vader just trying to "brutalize Kenobi" is not made apparent anywhere. It's basically mindless fanfiction, and directly contradicts Nick saying Anakin is physically perfect in all aspects, including technical skill. The comparison stands.

Kenobi's fighting style lends itself to conserving energy moreso than either Anakin or Dooku, and even "preserves" Kenobi's reserves which explains why Kenobi didn't get tired as easily.

Despite Kenobi "barely" having to think about parrying, and expending substantially less energy into these parrys, he still is barely able to keep up and is actively trying to distract Vader every chance he gets, in a "desperate" effort to slow him down.

You're referencing components of the duel my initial statement already accounted for. The claim I made at the start of this debate was literally:

NevesYtneves (DC77) wrote:Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

You mentioning stylistic factors doesn't actually address my point that intuitively it's braindead to put forth that such variables could broaden a 12 second hammering into a 9 minute marathon. This idea was never countered, with you instead introducing the factors as though they weren't already considered.

Definitely not indicative of the parity necessary for your chain hold.

Strawman. My point was never about parity between Kenobi and Anakin... it was about Kenobi outperforming Dooku.

Knowledge of eachother's movesets is only stated to be an advantage for Kenobi, not Anakin. In other words both have knowledge of eachother's movesets but only Kenobi benefits from this.

It only being stated as an advantage for Kenobi in a scene from Kenobi's perspective doesn't mean we can't intuitively make the assumption that it benefits Anakin as well. Such a position is frankly asinine.

Thus, it renders this a much more apt comparison between Kenobi and Dooku.

Not quite. As noted in A Guide To Weapons Of The Force, Kenobi was only undone by Dooku through the latter having knowledge of his style. When Obi-Wan actually utilises a form Dooku doesn't know the ins and outs of, here's what happens:

Revenge Of The Sith wrote:He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi’s legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku’s mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

So even if I were to grant you Anakin vs Obi-Wan not being a valid method of scaling Kenobi above Dooku, he's nigh equal to the Count before his mega-growth into the Mustafar fight anyway. Not that your takes on that fight are accurate to begin with.

C) Darth Krayt

The first quote point blank states that the once humming presence of the Jedi "fed him," referring it specifically to "Force-ability,"

Repitition of your initial point does little to actually refute my rebuttal. Which was:

NevesYtneves (DC77) wrote: You put forth that Kenobi is hindered combatively as a result of the Jedi deaths that occurred due to O66, but neither of the quotes you posted state as much. They merely note that Kenobi has suffered emotionally, and that he can no longer feed on the Jedi as he used to. Neither of these things preclude him still keeping up to par through other factors. Which is outright stated in the fight itself

You have to adequately adress the statements in the fight itself, or none of this is relevant. Kenobi can no longer be "fed" by the Jedi, but still manage to drag himself back up to where he was. These ideas are not mutually exclusive. Likewise:

Yoda also is stated to practice lightsaber techniques and hone his skills in the Force, but despite this he still turns out to be sub-Vader per Head-to-Head, who is magnitudes below Yoda in Revenge of the Sith. Obi-Wan having the same emotional response and also continuing to practice Jedi skills would also be applicable to this, and as stated earlier, you have never directly refuted the comparisons to Yoda.

Yoda is also stated to practice Jedi exercises as well - and he still ends up being sub-Vader according to Head to Head which you didn't bother to address.

The Yoda point is irrelevant as well. As once again, Kenobi's statement in the fight itself disproves this applying to him, so I don't have to address any of it. Different characters can be impacted by events with varying degrees of severity. This is not new info, and I've thus got no clue why you're acting shocked about the fact that I didn't see fit to refute the Yoda comparison.

All Obi-Wan says is that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull - not that they haven't dulled at all.

The definition of "dull" is listed as similar to "lessen", "diminish", "reduce" etc etc, and the word is stated to mean something becomes "less intense". The inference being that they've not atrophied period. But setting that aside, even if I were to grant your position that it doesn't mean they've not declined at all, it would still indicate that Kenobi is roughly on the same level he was in ROTS. Rendering this whole point moot.

And even after this, Obi-Wan has notable environmental hindrances that Hett uses to his advantage.

Unless you wish to put forth that the sand is a bigger performance enhancer than Krayt's massive growth (an intuitively asinine claim), this does little to damage the scaling.

Obi-Wan says that he's not deflecting Hett's attacks with ease, and attributes this to the terrain, implying that if they were fighting on equal ground, Obi-Wan would be blocking his blows with ease.

That's... not at all what that indicates. The second point is in a new sentence, with a new subject. If I were to say:

"I went to eat cheeseburgers. The place was red."

You wouldn't assume that I went to eat cheeseburgers because the place was red (unless you're a 60 IQ monkey that is). Again though, this is all overturned by Krayt's growth anyway, so it's not relevant.

Before I get to the next part, I'd like to emphasise that I've already proved that Kenobi at a base level is already operating on a similar level to his Mustafar counterpart. So even if EC is right that Kenobi gets some mega amp and one shots Hett, it doesn't mean anything for my scaling. I'm just addressing it for the purpose of being thorough.

So your argument is that it's all just one big coincidence, and you provide 0 evidence in favor of of your stance... right.

I don't have to prove anything, because I'm not the one claiming anything. You were the one saying Obi-Wan jumped 5 tiers from thinking about Luke, so you're the one who has to back that up. It's not my job to demonstrate a negative.

So essentially he expresses his concern over killing Hett, but actively knows that he cannot continue fighting, but by then by sheer coincidence, when he thinks of Luke, he magically one-shots. Just a coincidence brao.

Yes... it's a coincidence no different from SK TK ragdolling Vader in the TFU 2 game, despite no indication of a buff. Fights reach their natural conclusion. We don't take the end of duels and say "lol, he one shotted him" anywhere else, so I've no clue why we're doing it here. Luke was Kenobi's motivator across the entire duel, so him suddenly thinking of the guy isn't going to bring him up several tiers.

Before they fight, Obi-Wan "banished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind."

Him not actively contemplating Luke's survival doesn't mean it wasn't his reason for fighting the whole time, nor does it mean it wasn't imbedded in his subconscious. Saying otherwise is asinine.

The quote cited doesn't say what you're arguing at all. Just because one hasn't duplicated the feat doesn't mean one isn't capable of duplicating it.

Sure, but the likelihood that Yoda and Sids have never used their full running speed is extremely low. Even setting that aside though, this version of Kenobi is clearly mega-buffed and has no hard caps, which is ultimately all that's needed to render him "curbstomping" Hett irrelevant.

This explanation gels with the Gillard tiers among other things, in which Sidious, Yoda and Anakin are all 9s while Obi-Wan is "enormously" below them, being an 8.

Somehow I don't think he was referring to this iteration of Obi-Wan...

D) Darth Wyyrlok

What.

If I misinterpreted you feel free to correct me, but you're arguing that Wyyrlok benefits from Krayt's scaling due to their fight. Is that not what scaling is?

Don't play dumb. Your argument was, and I quote:

Wyyrlok is "far outstripped" by even Vong Krayt.

Which doesn't actually address any claim I made, since my case wasn't an argument for parity. Rather it was a defence for Wyyrlok, putting forth that he scales above Vos, who was casually one shotted by Dooku, somebody laughably sub Krayt. Putting the Legacy fighter above Sing, and by extension Mara. You've not refuted this at all, and can't, hence why you resorted to playing dumb.

I can't actually be bothered addressing any of your case for Kyp, since it's all unreliable narrators with gaps in their knowledge and a lot of wiggle room for other possible interpretations (unlike my case, which relies on the actual events of the story and nothing more). You put me on a tight schedule given the time I have, and thus it's not really worth it to parse through all that. This was mostly fun, but it's time for @darthskywalker0, or @XsupremeXSkillz to vote for me (IDEK who's judging), because there's no way they read the absolute dumbassery that was your posts and saw fit to vote for you.

By the official judgement of DS0 and Skillz issued on the SI Discord server, I've been granted victory over EC in this debate. Time to give me my third trophy @DarthAnt66.