SS - Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) vs. Darth Malgus (Praxis)

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:

• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
  
• Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
  

There will be three main posts per side in addition to a concluding post from each. No character limits will be enforced.

An Appeal to Intuition

Note: For the purposes of this debate we are assuming that the Outlander is the Hero of Tython.

To quickly set the stage, let us first admire the unbridled might of the Sith Empire's greatest champion: Darth Malgus. Heir to the throne and bane of the Republic's greatest heroes, Darth Malgus is the culmination of over a thousand years of Sith training and teachings. From the Exiles, to Marka Ragnos, to Naga Sadow, to Vitiate; Malgus is now the preeminent dark side master of the Sith Empire. Forged in the fires of countless battles and victories spanning decades of intense combat, few can claim that they match Malgus' experience in the art of war. His accomplishments on the battlefield were so awe-inspiring that even Darth Sidious went as far to proclaim that no other Sith in the history of the order (or Jedi for that matter) had ever matched them.

And now we look to Cade: the drug-abusing delinquent from an era that exists only to be outshone by other eras. While Malgus spent his formative years growing in the shadow of the dark side, battling the most powerful Jedi, and reclaiming the Sith homeworld, Cade spent his time getting high and doing fuck-all while wallowing in his own misery. While Malgus spent his time conquering system after system, Cade distracted himself with low-level bounties to scrounge enough change just to get to the next fueling station. Whatever Skywalker juice he has left, he clearly spent his time doing nothing with it, and as a result, Cade lacks a tenth of the experience possessed by Malgus, and when you're in a fight with Malgus raw talent alone will not be enough to save you. More on this point later.

In essence: Malgus is the very embodiment of what it means to be Sith, trained from birth with decades upon decades of combat experience, forged in what is quite possibly the greatest war ever seen by the Republic (this sounds familiar).Cade is an upstart from an inferior era (as you'll see below) who has inherited a diluted bloodline.

Sith Showdown

Caedus and Cade share many similar qualities: they both have long hair, they have similar names, and they are both Skywalkers. However, the similarities end when we look at their respective training and combat experience. Jacen Solo: trained at the Jedi Praxeum under the tutelage of Luke Skywalker, fought in one of of the greatest wars the galaxy had ever seen against the Yuuzhan Vong in which he vanquished the Vong's leader in Onimi, spent five years studying different aspects and philosophies of the Force from groups such as the Fallanassi, Baran Do, and the Aing-Tii monks, and as Darth Caedus (Revelation) threw down with the likes of Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, and Luke Skywalker. Not to mention that when he donned his crown as Dark Lord of the Sith his powers were amplified.

Unfortunately for Cade, he does not possess a comparable résumé. He was trained by lesser Jedi, did not fight in a multi-year all-out galactic war, did not spend years learning the different aspects of the Force, did not clash with opponents on the level of Onimi, Mara Jade, Kyle Katarn, and Luke Skywalker, and did not experience a DLOTS amp. On top of that, Cade's Skywalker juice is even more diluted than Caedus'. I think it's pretty clear which way the scales are tipping; if you were forced to pick between Caedus and Cade with a gun to your head you are going to pick Caedus every time. It's simply the more reasonable answer. Especially when you consider the Sith Showdown quote which puts Caedus above Krayt as of 2008, who as we know is Cade's superior.

Wizards of the Coast - Sith Showdown (May 7th, 2008) wrote:The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?

Now, with that said, let us open our hearts and minds to the power of Darth Revan  

In Star Wars Miniatures, Darth Revan outclasses both the Jacen Solo and Darth Caedus pieces (and the Cade and Krayt pieces too). Revan possesses more hit points, higher defense, higher attack, and equal damage while also sporting a significantly higher cost than both the Jacen and Caedus pieces (all stats are located in the "Auxiliary Arguments" section). Revan is also mentioned alongside Caedus in the Sith Showdown quote and therefore isn't bound by Caedus through C-canon, and additionally, if any Sith were to be with or above Caedus it would be Sheev or Revan given that the Sith Showdown quote establishes them as the three most powerful Sith.

Galactic Files has a bit of a different take on the Revan/Caedus dynamic than Miniatures but it still has them roughly on par, with both of them possessing equal power but with Caedus having a slightly higher Fighting Ability statistic. This still supports my position though since it reinforces the notion that Revan is at least on the level of Caedus. GF also supports the notion of Caedus being above Cade, since Caedus outclasses Cade in Force Power and possesses equal Fighting Ability. And while we are on the topic of Galactic Files, I should also mention that Malgus possesses superior Force Power to both Revan and Caedus, and Cade by extension.

It should be noted that Miniatures is likely the more reliable source than Galactic Files and so the more likely take would be that Revan is more powerful than Caedus rather than on par, but either way works for my argument - all that matters is that Malgus is above or on par with Caedus. Also, for clarity's sake, Miniatures represents Caedus as of LOTF: Revelation while Galactic Files represents Caedus over the entirety of the LOTF series.

SWTOR Scaling

Charles Boyd, the Creative Director of Star Wars: The Old Republic--who has likely had more involvement with Arcann and Malgus than any other writer--believes that Malgus as of Onslaught is capable of taking Arcann down due to his superior experience and tenacity.

Charles Boyd:

Also, the Darth Xarion quote in which Xarion implies that Malgus is perhaps > Arcann, while an IU limited character opinion still elevates the probability of Arcann ~ Malgus at the minimum being true.

Xarion on Malgus:

Both of these quotes are further supported by Malgus' encounters with the Outlander, who of which Malgus has proved to be an exceptional challenge for. In their first encounter, the Outlander had the assistance of a strike team composed of the Republic's most powerful heroes and yet Malgus was able to electrocute the team and then ragdoll them a minute later. During the fight, Malgus displays his power over the team through a scripted gameplay mechanic in which he ragdolls three of the four strike team members (including the Hero) while he engages the remaining member who is forced to survive against Malgus until his hold over the other strike team members breaks. Not only is Malgus dominant in TK, but he's also dominant in sabers as illustrated by the Hero--who at the time is very likely to be the greatest duelist in the Jedi Order--described Malgus' lightsaber form as "flawless" during their encounter.

In their second encounter, Gnost-Dural believes that if the Outlander, Tau, and Arn work together as one then they can defeat Malgus. Gnost also believes that if he were to accompany the team that it would only endanger the mission since it would only serve to enrage Malgus further and potentially endanger their chance of success. After the team defeats Malgus and Tau/Arn reunite the Outlander after having been almost killed by Malgus' final attack, Tau states that Malgus was "everything that they say he is" and that they were "lucky to survive at all", implying that Gnost-Dural wasn't exaggerating the threat the Malgus posed. Additionally, Scourge and Kira arrive shortly after and state that they needed to observe the Outlander in the "most dire of circumstances" to confirm that Valkorion was no longer lingering inside the Outlander, and we figure out that Scourge and Kira were at the assault of the Meridian Complex where Malgus and the Outlander fought, since they pull Tau and Arn out of the rubble after Malgus brings down the facility. Given that Kira and Scourge waited until after the Outlander's fight with Malgus for them to feel confident that Valkorion was no longer inside of the Outlander, and given that we know Kira and Scourge were sneaking around the battle, it would seem highly likely that Kira and Scourge witnessed the battle between the Outlander and Malgus and considered it intense enough to fall under the criterion of "most dire of circumstances" to the extent that they were confident Valkorion was no longer hiding away in the Outlander, only to come out when the Outlander was in serious trouble. Insert Cade for Malgus in this whole scenario and just think how silly that would be lol.

Now, the Hero/Revan scaling has been explained a million times at this point so I'm not going to bother to go into detail on it here, but if you want to see the details then just click here. Using the Hero/Revan scaling, we are left with the following: Onslaught Malgus ~ Arcann > Act III Hero > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan.

Auxiliary Arguments

I. Muurne

There are other indicators that while aren't hard binds, still favor Malgus when comparing him to Cade and Legacy as a whole.

Arcann ~ Valklander > Muurne ~ Vong Krayt from the man himself:

HP Legend:

Just to expand on this a bit, Celeste is clearly not cut from the same cloth as Revan, who is the greatest Force-user of their generation, let alone the Hero who surpassed a 44-year-old Revan when he was in his very early 20's. Clearly, the Hero would be a better candidate than Celeste for acting as a vessel for an ancient Sith spirit. It should also go without saying that Muur is not on the level of Valkorion given that Valkorion is hailed as "the most powerful Force user who has ever existed", "history's most powerful dark side master", "the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen", "the most powerful and malevolent entity the galaxy has ever seen", his fight with the Star Wars Avengers in EoO, etc.

As seen in the video below, Arcann is able to negate Valklander’s onslaught and survive the subsequent fall without any serious damage. It's arguable that had Arcann not fallen over the edge he would've been able to finish the Outlander, given that the Outlander had reached his limit after pushing Arcann off of the platform. Even a Muurne+ attack isn’t enough to fully defeat Arcann, who per the section above has a significant chance of losing to Malgus.

Arcann vs. Valklander:

---

II. Stats: KOTOR vs. Legacy

Saga, Galactic Files, and Miniatures all lean towards KOTOR/SWTOR era supremacy over Legacy.

Saga stats:

GF stats:

Miniatures stats:

Conclusion

1. Malgus is the very embodiment of what it means to be Sith, trained from birth with decades upon decades of combat experience, forged in what is quite possibly the greatest war ever seen by the Republic. Cade is an upstart with sporadic training and relatively minimal experience.
2. Caedus possesses far more training and experience than Cade and inherits a less diluted bloodline than Cade.
3. Per C-canon, Revan and Caedus are above Krayt as of 2008.
4. Per S-canon, Revan is at least on par with Revelation Caedus if not above.
5. Per S-canon, Malgus is more powerful than Revan, Caedus, Krayt, and Cade.
6. Per the words of Charles Boyd, Darth Xarion, and Malgus' fights with the Outlander, Malgus is at least on par with Arcann, who is above Revan and the Hero.
7. Malgus ~ Arcann ~ Valklander > Muurne ~ Vong Krayt > Cade.
8. KOTOR/SWTOR era has very favorable comparisons to the Legacy era through S-canon.

There is honestly an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of Malgus, and quite frankly I have no idea how anyone would think that Cade would be the likely victor in a straight-up fight. Per the words of Charles Boyd and also general SW VS logic, Malgus is capable of punching up when it comes to power due to this tenacity/experience and not only does Malgus have an enormous experience advantage over Cade, he also has a power advantage over Cade. Really no matter which way you cut it Malgus is disemboweling Cade.

And finally with all that said...

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CADE SKYWALKER, THE HEIR OF SKYWALKER

I. The Drug Abusing Delinquent

A) Diluted Bloodline

Part of your appeal for Cade being intuitively below Malgus, Caedus, etc, stems from the idea that his bloodline would have been diluted which I’m presuming you’re basing on one half of his blood coming from a muggle, and the distance between his father - Kol - and Luke. However, I don’t see why this necessarily would be the case, as potential isn’t always correlated with the potency of the parent’s blood/how far removed it is from the source. To prove this, I give you the example of Anakin Solo:

1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo wrote:As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.

Anakin Solo Databank wrote:Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

Behind the Magic wrote:The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.

Fact File #114 wrote:Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.

Per the above quotes, Anakin, at the very least, appears to have potential ~ Luke - in spite of the fact that Leia obviously has vastly less potential than Anakin Skywalker. Thus, it’s not readily apparent to me that Cade’s potential would be lackluster compared to someone like Caedus and earlier Skywalker generations. To hammer home the point, Cade is written as an anomaly for his bloodline: Krayt emphasises his ridiculous strength in the Force on top of the fact that he’s a Skywalker, and he has unmatched healing abilities which are specifically stated by Wolf Sazen to be reflective of his extreme power in the Force:

Darth Krayt, Legacy #7 wrote:"Yes, and yet you have brought me knowledge greater than your failure, there is a Skywalker. And he is powerful in the Force... he is very powerful indeed."

Luke Skywalker, Legacy #3 wrote:"I don’t understand you. You have a talent to heal others that is unlike I’ve ever known."

Wolf Sazen, Legacy #6 wrote:"Cade, the Force is too powerful in you to just walk away! Healing me like you did was not something you were taught, you did that by instinct alone!"

Is he even below Caedus in potential at all? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn’t be willing to bet on it, nor make it a central point in a debate case.

B) Sporadic Training

You emphasise against both Caedus and Malgus Cade’s lack of experience, claiming that all he has is raw talent due to the years he spent not training. I feel I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that the entire point of the Legacy comics is that Cade has compensated for that at the end via fighting in numerous battles and facing several emotional trials. Neither of these two are subject to Cade’s lack of experience, no, but they’re also not subject to the clairvoyance he has. Notably:

https://imgur.com/a/U1Zms

Legacy: War #6 wrote:When Talon witnessed Cade's new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal.

Cade heals his mother using the Light Side and fully embraces it, granting him ”focus”, and his ”mastery of the Force” is especially emphasised. Contrast that with Caedus who’s sort of going insane by Invincible, and Malgus who failed against the FE strike team, per their own commentary, because of lack of mental strength influencing his fighting ability:

The Hero of Tython, The Old Republic: False Emperor wrote:"Malgus’s lightsaber form was flawless, but he let anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

The Voidhound, The Old Republic: False Emperor wrote:"There I was, blaster in hand, sidestepping Force attacks, when Malgus lost his cool. But not me. I took the shot, and that’s all she wrote."

Frankly, no Skywalker - besides Luke - is as mentally clear as Cade is and has faced what he has, so it's disingenuous to frame Cade's lack of combat experience as the end be it of all decider in an intuitive comparison - his control over the raw power of his lineage is immense. Of course, there are other ways to bind him, but let's not pretend as though this matchup has an immediately apparent answer without deeper analysis of the respective combatant's best feats and scaling.

II. The Champion of the Sith

A) Galactic Files

I fundamentally disagree with the use of Galactic Files to scale Malgus above Revan, Legacy characters, etc. First and foremost, the author of the stats has admitted that he had a lack of material to work with, and that Lucasfilm Licensing did not review them whatsoever:



Secondly, said stats are blatantly not consistent with C-Canon lore - probably due to the aforementioned reason. For example, Talon is either equal to or better than Krayt in every category relating to combat which anybody who has read Legacy knows is absolute nonsense. Likewise, the stats display Cade as inferior to Talon and Nihl, despite the fact that by the end of the series he's considerably above both.

B) An Appeal to Intuition

I’m perfectly willing to concede Vong Krayt is less powerful than Darth Revan and Arcann, but I don’t think it matters, because aside from Galactic Files there’s no reason to believe Malgus is more powerful than either of them. Your own scan regarding his equality with Arcann blatantly confirms that power wise - at a minimum - Arcann is superior by a considerable degree, and his feats against the FE strike team + The Outlander can be chalked down to his insane Lightsaber combat abilities + extensive experience. In fact, seeing as you like intuition so much, I’ve decided it’s fully acceptable to use it myself in order to provide some reasonable caps for Malgus’s pure Force Power.

Let’s begin with using Vitiate’s baseline power to establish a ceiling for Malgus’. Vitiate is a much greater prodigy than Malgus is, as can be seen by his insane feats and power hype during his early teens:

(a) At age 10 he defeated his father, a powerful Sith Lord who ruled over a planet, removed his connection to the Force, and created an uber holocron which he imprisoned him in:

The Old Republic: Codex wrote:Ten years later, the Sith Lord heard rumors of a child gathering power in the northern continent, but did not personally investigate until his envoys failed to return. After days of travel, Dramath reached the source of the rumors only to face his illegitimate son, Tenebrae, the future Sith Emperor and immortal ruler of Zakuul. That day, Tenebrae removed his father's connection to the Force and imprisoned him within a powerful holocron, leaving Dramath alone to wither slowly into madness over an eternity.

The Old Republic: Codex wrote:All holocrons are based on a complex yet elegant technology: a lattice of organic crystals woven together at a microscopic level. The crystal lattice can store vast amounts of information, as well as replicate the appearance and personality of the holocron's creator as a gatekeeper who will guide students in their training.

In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.

But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him, permanently imprisoning his immortal spirit... or obliterating it from existence.

(b) At age 13 he took over his homeworld, eliminating multiple rivals in the process of doing so:

The Old Republic: Encyclopedia wrote:The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.

His superiority is self-evident in portrayal: Malgus is shown as a notable warrior, but not among the absolute elite as to how far his power can go, whereas Vitiate is emphasised as "supremely strong in the dark side of the Force".

And, of course, the ramifications of this should be obvious: Vitiate has had 1000 years to rigorously hone his talents, whereas Malgus has only had a portion of a human lifespan, so Vitiate’s baseline power should be well in excess of his. This means that it’s entirely possible, and perhaps likely, that the Hero of Tython and Novel Revan are both stronger in the Force than Malgus, as they both displayed themselves capable of contending with Vitiate’s baseline power. Such a claim is corroborated by the Barsen’thor stating that Malgus didn’t spend enough time studying the Force, and implying that he is stronger than him due to his own more extensive exploration of it:

The Barsen'thor, The Old Republic wrote:"Malgus spent more time plotting his deceptions than he did studying the Force. Thankfully, my studies weren’t as weak."

Altogether, Malgus’ Force Power is not compared favourably to the top tiers, so trying to make him the benefactor of their power feats and accolades is a doomed endeavour.

III. The Man of Vision

A) Power

As established in the prior section, Malgus is consistently portrayed as below the absolute top tier in Force Power, which should be more than enough to place him considerably below Darth Krayt in that area of combat, too. As to why, Krayt scales to the most powerful Sith Lord in history (who’s in that elite class for obvious reasons) - a stance supported by:

(a) Krayt’s ability to mitigate a charged Lightning blast from a combatant who was, according to Vader’s POV, capable of defeating Sidious.

















(b) Their respective miniature stats - stats which you endorsed and used in your own post.





(c) The author of the Legacy comics stating Krayt is "in [Sidious’] class" - you’ve used author quotes in your own post, so I see no reason why I should not do the same.

John Ostrander wrote:Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the Imperial Knights in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.

(d) Any gaps which exist between them, due to potential fallibility of the above metrics, being compensated for by Krayt becoming far stronger upon his rebirth.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater."

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied."

Darth Krayt, Legacy War wrote:"I have become so much more than you can know, traitor."

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"Surrender. You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then."

B) Experience

Malgus’ biggest strength as a combatant is his experience gained from the numerous battles he’s fought in which is apparently enough to compensate for a sizable power disparity against an opponent like Arcann. But does this apply against Krayt? Not at all. Praxis himself acknowledged such, when he drew a comparison in experience between Krayt and Malgus in his opener:

In essence: Malgus is the very embodiment of what it means to be Sith, trained from birth with decades upon decades of combat experience, forged in what is quite possibly the greatest war ever seen by the Republic (this sounds familiar ~ insert image of Krayt ~).

And, indeed, Krayt is probably one of the most skilled combatants in all of Star Wars. He has the experience of fighting in The Clone Wars, having been both Jedi and Sith, decades of combat experience, thousands of kills, etc - he’s definitely in Malgus’ class in this regard.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:"Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then."

IV. The Heir of Skywalker

A) Limits

Firstly, before I dive into Cade’s might, I want to stress that absolutely no hard caps have been presented for him beyond Galactic Files stats and intuition. Everything else in your opener only has ties to Vong Krayt, the rest of Legacy, etc, so even if I were to miraculously concede the majority of what I’ve written thus far it wouldn’t warrant the assumption that Cade loses. In fact, specifically, I want to call attention to a point consistently re-iterated in multiple of the scaling chains in your opener:

Vong Krayt > Cade.

...which is absolutely baseless. You haven’t provided any concrete link which substantiates such, and, to my knowledge, there isn’t one within the comic itself. Please provide evidence for this claim, otherwise neither myself, nor the readers, have any reason to buy it.

B) Unparalleled Aptitude

If there’s one thing that’s consistently true about Skywalkers, it’s that their reflexes are astonishingly fast and their ability to adapt is unparalleled - which allows them to, even untrained, often punch above their weight class. Anakin was able to accomplish something no other human could in racing pods, due to his insane precognition. Luke was improving with every swing against Vader in ESB, and his powers developed so fast in 6 months that he was Vader’s equal by ROTJ.

Fightsaber wrote:In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself to be an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. It is only Darth Vader’s much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in the battle.

The Empire Strikes Back (Weinberg) wrote:But Luke seemed to learn with each move. He was quicker now. Stronger. The point of his sword nicked Vader's arm.

Fightsaber wrote:By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan’s journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker’s unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.

The consistent trend is likewise true for Cade. Against Krayt in Claws of the Dragon, after wasting away for 7 years and received relatively minimal training to bring him back into the game, his reflexes were so fast and his adaptability was so high that he was able to hold his own throughout much of the duel - in a fight which ordinarily should have been one-sided. Krayt himself acknowledges this: "The only thing that saves you thus far is the blood of Vader that runs through your veins." Recall that earlier I illustrated that Krayt is on Sidious’ level, or, at the very least, not far off.







Now, if Cade is capable of contending with a Sidious tier through mostly natural adaptability without his mastery, control and focus, imagine what would happen if you gave him that, and his bursts of power actually stabilised. Well, you don’t need to imagine, because that’s exactly what the next section of my post will illustrate.

C) Performance against Reborn Krayt

As was emphasised in section I of my post, Cade eventually does gain control over his insane raw power and achieves a pristine, light side, fully healed mental state. This, per Darth Talon’s testimony, is enough to make him a threat to Reborn Krayt. Note that if Krayt were even decisively better than Cade - enough to achieve 10 victories out of 10 - Talon’s concern would be unwarranted, and that if she were meant to be wrong, her thoughts would not be stressed in the opening of the following issue:

Legacy: War #6 wrote:When Talon witnessed Cade's new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal.

Talon’s perspective is reinforced by the fight itself:





Observations:

(a) Cade negates Krayt’s telekinesis in the 2nd panel. Some claim the comic is depicting Krayt ragdolling Cade, but he’s not, as, firstly, Cade’s dialogue is him bragging about his growth indicating the panel is trying to convey he’s doing something positive, and secondly, Krayt’s is neither looking at Cade nor pointing his hand in Cade’s direction - he’s crushing the rocks Cade’s standing on. Note that Krayt’s expression also changes from calm/controlled to visibly angry in the subsequent panel which makes 0 sense if he’s just casually tossing Cade around.

(b) Cade powers through Krayt’s Force Lightning and forces him into a lightsaber duel. This is evidenced by Krayt charging up his Lightning in the third panel, releasing it at Cade in the fourth, and us cutting back to Krayt and Cade continuing their fight in the fifth.

(c) Cade has an extensive lightsaber duel with Krayt, and only loses at that point because of Dark Transfer. We know this, because the fight starts inside the Sith Temple, and ends outside the Sith Temple - a considerable distance away from it, in fact. This indicates the fight was uniquely protracted, as most Lightsaber duels - even longer ones - barely leave their starting point (e.g. Jinn vs Maul on Tatooine).

D) vs Malgus

The key takeaway from the two above performances is that Malgus isn’t going to breach Cade’s defences by a long shot - due to his reflexes, adaptability, and control. Krayt is just as experienced as Malgus, and far more powerful, yet he only breached Cade’s defences twice in an extensive duel - once with an inconsequential Force Push and the second with a punch that in an ordinary, non Dark Transfer, bout wouldn’t have meant a loss. Meanwhile, Cade’s raw power and aggression, which were a threat to Krayt, will pressure Malgus enough that he’ll crumble mentally under the pressure - just like he did against the strike team. This is made worse by Dark Transfer that will grant Cade a victory if he lands even a single solid physical strike. And, even if Malgus doesn’t crack, Cade’s got the reserves to best him in a slugout if it really comes to it.

Mr “smells like leather and stardust” wins.

Before we begin, I just want to mention that this post and my previous post are written under an outdated methodology, but for the purposes of keeping the debate consistent, we are going to continue operating under the outdated methodology for the remainder of the debate. Now with that said...

Rebuttals

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Part of your appeal for Cade being intuitively below Malgus, Caedus, etc, stems from the idea that his bloodline would have been diluted which I’m presuming you’re basing on one half of his blood coming from a muggle, and the distance between his father - Kol - and Luke. However, I don’t see why this necessarily would be the case, as potential isn’t always correlated with the potency of the parent’s blood/how far removed it is from the source.

I'm saying that Caedus likely has a greater claim to the benefits of the Skywalker bloodline when compared to Cade. Cade's potential is explicitly attributed to his Skywalker blood, so when comparing Cade to another Skywalker a very big factor would be which Skywalker likely benefits the most from their bloodline. Since Caedus shares closer proximity to the source of his family's power in Anakin, there are fewer negative variables (non-Force sensitives) influencing his inheritance when compared to Cade, and so I would argue that it's more likely Caedus benefits from the bloodline to a greater extent than Cade rather than vice versa. And I agree with you that the dilution process doesn't necessitate a 100% continuous trend downwards with respect to talent, it's not how my argument functions. Across the examples we do have though, it does seem to follow a general downwards trend as the bloodline becomes more diverse. I think we can both agree that following the Solo children the quality of Skywalker prospects seems to dwindle for the most part. We don't have any Luke's or Caedus' in the interim period between Luke and Cade nor are any of the middlings implied to ever have the potential to be on their level. Instead, we just have a bunch of Nat's and Kol's. I haven't seen anything which would imply that Cade transcends this trend to the extent of matching or surpassing the Solo siblings or other top-tier Skywalker's.

My dilution argument isn't intended to be a bind, it's intent is to support the notion that the likelihood of Cade possessing a greater potential than Caedus is probably lesser than the likelihood that Caedus possesses a greater potential than Cade. And I should also say that Caedus' potential doesn't even have to be higher than Cade's for my proposal of Caedus > Cade to work, it merely has to be close enough to Cade's that Caedus' training and experience more than make-up for a deficiency in potential relative to Cade (which I sincerely doubt exists given the wank that the Solo kids receive in regards to their potential when compared to the wank Cade's potential gets).

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
To prove this, I give you the example of Anakin Solo:

1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo wrote:As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.

Anakin Solo Databank wrote:Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

Behind the Magic wrote:The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.

Fact File #114 wrote:Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.

Per the above quotes, Anakin, at the very least, appears to have potential ~ Luke - in spite of the fact that Leia obviously has vastly less potential than Anakin Skywalker. Thus, it’s not readily apparent to me that Cade’s potential would be lackluster compared to someone like Caedus and earlier Skywalker generations.

Right, I don't think the existence of outliers such as Anakin contradicts my argument. I'm merely speaking for what seems to be the typical trend where there seems to be a regression towards the average over the course of several generations. I can't recall a single Skywalker which post-dates the Solo children that gets the level of potential wank that Anakin Solo or Jacen get. Just to list a few examples:

1. The stuff HP posted above with regards to Anakin Solo.

2. Jacen getting compared to Anakin and Anakin Solo:


3.

Ambush at Corellia wrote:Jedi lore held that childish innocence was a bulwark against the dark side. But Jedi lore also held it all but unheard of for any child to display the ability and strength in the Force that her children exhibited.

Note that Anakin and Luke's abilities as children were more latent compared to the Solo children due to their respective upbringings.

Jacen is portrayed as being a potential all-time Jedi and Skywalker. Based on what's been posted so far, the same can't be said for Cade. If Cade were a similar prospect to his forebears, you would think it would have been mentioned somewhere as it was with Luke and the Solo children given there's a strong precedent for wanking a Skywalker's potential at any chance an author gets. Unless you have quotes that state such, it seems an unlikely position given the unlikelihood of being a prodigy on the level of Luke or the Solo kids even as a Skywalker.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
To hammer home the point, Cade is written as an anomaly for his bloodline: Krayt emphasises his ridiculous strength in the Force on top of the fact that he’s a Skywalker, and he has unmatched healing abilities which are specifically stated by Wolf Sazen to be reflective of his extreme power in the Force:

Darth Krayt, Legacy #7 wrote:"Yes, and yet you have brought me knowledge greater than your failure, there is a Skywalker. And he is powerful in the Force... he is very powerful indeed."

Luke Skywalker, Legacy #3 wrote:"I don’t understand you. You have a talent to heal others that is unlike I’ve ever known."

Wolf Sazen, Legacy #6 wrote:"Cade, the Force is too powerful in you to just walk away! Healing me like you did was not something you were taught, you did that by instinct alone!"

Is he even below Caedus in potential at all? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn’t be willing to bet on it, nor make it a central point in a debate case.

Again, when we compare this with Jacen's wank there's a notable distinction. Cade is powerful in an era whose villains are defined by hiding from the Skywalker family, while Jacen is extremely powerful in THE era of Skywalker's. When a conversation of Jacen's power/potential occurs, he's being compared to Anakin/Luke/Anakin Solo i.e. the best of the best. The same seemingly can't be said for Cade.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
You emphasise against both Caedus and Malgus Cade’s lack of experience, claiming that all he has is raw talent due to the years he spent not training. I feel I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that the entire point of the Legacy comics is that Cade has compensated for that at the end via fighting in numerous battles and facing several emotional trials. Neither of these two are subject to Cade’s lack of experience, no, but they’re also not subject to the clairvoyance he has. Notably:

https://imgur.com/a/U1Zms

Legacy: War #6 wrote:When Talon witnessed Cade's new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Cade isn't inexperienced only because he skipped out on a lot of his training, rather, he's inexperienced because he skipped out on a lot of his training and also, more importantly, hasn't been fighting for very long, and most of his fights are with low-level competition as you yourself would agree.



I specified in the conclusion of my opener that it's not only the lack of training but also the lack of general experience relative to Caedus and Malgus.

Praxis wrote:Cade is an upstart with sporadic training and relatively minimal experience.

Again, just to highlight the disparity between the two characters with respect to experience:

Malgus:
-Full training at the Sith Academy in Dromund Kaas.
-Fought through the entirety of a galactic war which spanned 28 years and became the Empire's greatest champion (out of millions of possible Sith) and performed feats on the battlefield that per Darth Sidious have never been surpassed in the history of the galaxy.
-Fought a strike team of the Republic's most powerful champions (which included the Hero of Tython who is more powerful than Vong Krayt) in a grueling battle.
-Kicked off a new galactic war and defeated Gnost-Dural, and put up a great fight against the Outlander (who at this point would be VASTLY more powerful than Vong Krayt to put it lightly), Tau, and Arn.

Cade:
-Incomplete training, left the Jedi as a teenaged Padawan and became a drug-addicted bounty hunter for 7 years before picking up a lightsaber again and training for only a few weeks/months under Krayt/K'Kruhk.
-Fought in a galactic war for a few months, maybe a year? Also mostly only fought "trash" Sith per yourself as seen in the image below.
-Lost to Vong Krayt, who is far less powerful than the Hero of Tython that Malgus fought.
-Basically lost to Reborn Krayt, only "won" because Krayt was monologuing after he had subdued Cade.

Malgus has more experience against higher-level opponents than what Cade has fought against and has also just spent more time fighting than Cade in general.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Cade heals his mother using the Light Side and fully embraces it, granting him ”focus”, and his ”mastery of the Force” is especially emphasised. Contrast that with Caedus who’s sort of going insane by Invincible, and Malgus who failed against the FE strike team, per their own commentary, because of lack of mental strength influencing his fighting ability:

The Hero of Tython, The Old Republic: False Emperor wrote:"Malgus’s lightsaber form was flawless, but he let anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

The Voidhound, The Old Republic: False Emperor wrote:"There I was, blaster in hand, sidestepping Force attacks, when Malgus lost his cool. But not me. I took the shot, and that’s all she wrote."

Levels of focus are important if the playing field is relatively even, but I've yet to see evidence for why that would be the case in this particular matchup. Malgus would be far far less likely to falter against an opponent who doesn't require high levels of focus to combat (e.g. Cade). Also, the wording around the mastery quote is more important than you're giving it credit for. The quote emphasizes NEWFOUND mastery, not mastery in general. If I'm a guy going to a boxing gym for the first time and I learn how to punch then I would've achieved newfound mastery, but that doesn't speak to my overall mastery which would obviously be very low relative to experienced boxers. Not to say that Cade is a complete noob but you get what I'm saying. Cade by the end of Legacy was more masterful than he was earlier in the series obviously, but that doesn't speak to his overall mastery.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Frankly, no Skywalker - besides Luke - is as mentally clear as Cade is and has faced what he has, so it's disingenuous to frame Cade's lack of combat experience as the end be it of all decider in an intuitive comparison - his control over the raw power of his lineage is immense. Of course, there are other ways to bind him, but let's not pretend as though this matchup has an immediately apparent answer without deeper analysis of the respective combatant's best feats and scaling.

Citation needed.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
I fundamentally disagree with the use of Galactic Files to scale Malgus above Revan, Legacy characters, etc. First and foremost, the author of the stats has admitted that he had a lack of material to work with, and that Lucasfilm Licensing did not review them whatsoever:

They are still S-canon though since they were approved and published by LFL. There's a reason I used it in my post even though I was aware of the author's comments (which I so kindly provided you with). There may have been minimal involvement during production but the product was still greenlighted by LFL nonetheless. It even got its own spotlight on starwars.com in which they detail how LFL was involved in the process of developing the idea of creating the card game: https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-galactic-files-bringing-the-trading-back-to-trading-cards-part-1

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Secondly, said stats are blatantly not consistent with C-Canon lore - probably due to the aforementioned reason. For example, Talon is either equal to or better than Krayt in every category relating to combat which anybody who has read Legacy knows is absolute nonsense. Likewise, the stats display Cade as inferior to Talon and Nihl, despite the fact that by the end of the series he's considerably above both.

Anything that is contradicted by C-canon just gets overridden, but in the place of no contradictions, S-canon prevails. And as far as I'm aware, there isn't anything contradicting Malgus' superiority over Revan/Legacy, and in fact, it seems Malgus superiority is the likeliest case given all the other pieces I pointed out (i.e. SWTOR scaling in tandem with DR's supremacy quote and stats, Muur scaling, SWTOR/Legacy era comparisons, etc.)

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:

I’m perfectly willing to concede Vong Krayt is less powerful than Darth Revan and Arcann, but I don’t think it matters, because aside from Galactic Files there’s no reason to believe Malgus is more powerful than either of them. Your own scan regarding his equality with Arcann blatantly confirms that power wise - at a minimum - Arcann is superior by a considerable degree, and his feats against the FE strike team + The Outlander can be chalked down to his insane Lightsaber combat abilities + extensive experience. In fact, seeing as you like intuition so much, I’ve decided it’s fully acceptable to use it myself in order to provide some reasonable caps for Malgus’s pure Force Power.

Oh trust me, it does matter lol. You'll see shortly.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Let’s begin with using Vitiate’s baseline power to establish a ceiling for Malgus’. Vitiate is a much greater prodigy than Malgus is, as can be seen by his insane feats and power hype during his early teens:

(a) At age 10 he defeated his father, a powerful Sith Lord who ruled over a planet, removed his connection to the Force, and created an uber holocron which he imprisoned him in:

The Old Republic: Codex wrote:Ten years later, the Sith Lord heard rumors of a child gathering power in the northern continent, but did not personally investigate until his envoys failed to return. After days of travel, Dramath reached the source of the rumors only to face his illegitimate son, Tenebrae, the future Sith Emperor and immortal ruler of Zakuul. That day, Tenebrae removed his father's connection to the Force and imprisoned him within a powerful holocron, leaving Dramath alone to wither slowly into madness over an eternity.

The Old Republic: Codex wrote:All holocrons are based on a complex yet elegant technology: a lattice of organic crystals woven together at a microscopic level. The crystal lattice can store vast amounts of information, as well as replicate the appearance and personality of the holocron's creator as a gatekeeper who will guide students in their training.

In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.

But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him, permanently imprisoning his immortal spirit... or obliterating it from existence.

(b) At age 13 he took over his homeworld, eliminating multiple rivals in the process of doing so:

The Old Republic: Encyclopedia wrote:The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.

His superiority is self-evident in portrayal: Malgus is shown as a notable warrior, but not among the absolute elite as to how far his power can go, whereas Vitiate is emphasised as "supremely strong in the dark side of the Force".

And, of course, the ramifications of this should be obvious: Vitiate has had 1000 years to rigorously hone his talents, whereas Malgus has only had a portion of a human lifespan, so Vitiate’s baseline power should be well in excess of his. This means that it’s entirely possible, and perhaps likely, that the Hero of Tython and Novel Revan are both stronger in the Force than Malgus, as they both displayed themselves capable of contending with Vitiate’s baseline power. Such a claim is corroborated by the Barsen’thor stating that Malgus didn’t spend enough time studying the Force, and implying that he is stronger than him due to his own more extensive exploration of it:

The Barsen'thor, The Old Republic wrote:"Malgus spent more time plotting his deceptions than he did studying the Force. Thankfully, my studies weren’t as weak."

Altogether, Malgus’ Force Power is not compared favourably to the top tiers, so trying to make him the benefactor of their power feats and accolades is a doomed endeavour.

Wow, never realized that Malgus was less prodigious than perhaps the most prodigious Force-user ever and arguably the most powerful being to ever exist. Thank you for the valuable insight. Not sure how Malgus will recover from this.



There's a much better route you could've taken here but I'll let you figure it out.

Also @ the "Hero of Tython and Novel Revan are both stronger in the Force than Malgus" point: I don't think this matters even if true. You can be as or more powerful than these guys and still lose to Malgus due to his intangibles as seen with Arcann. Also, I don't think your point is even true anyways. The Hero of Tython had all the intangibles in the world by the time he fought Arcann and yet still got flattened since he simply wasn't powerful enough to hang with Arcann, yet it seems Malgus can. The power gap between the Hero and Arcann was so large that Valkorion literally had to enhance the Hero's sensitivity to the Force and then have the Hero train with Satele Shan and Darth Marr who then gifted him a weapon imbued with their essence and power and he still barely won. Malgus can beat Arcann without any of that extra bullshit. That at least sets a baseline for Malgus' power as being pretty damn high in the context of SWTOR. Almost certainly higher than the Hero (as of when he fought Arcann for the first time), who is also more powerful than Revan from the novel as I believe we both agree upon.

Just to speak on Malgus' prodigiousness for a moment, since I think it's actually one of Malgus' stronger aspects; it's noted multiple times that Malgus' potential in the Force is extremely rare. Not only that, but he also dominates Kao Cen Darach--Satele's master and Jedi Battlemaster, as well as one of the most notable Jedi in the Order--at the young age of 19. At that point, he also surpassed his master, Lord Vindican, who was considered the greatest apprentice of Darth Ikoral, who was considered one of the Empire's greatest heroes. Even before that, Malgus was already regarded as one of the Empire's greatest warriors when he was just a teenager.

Another thing that I wanted to address is the notion that Malgus was nothing more than just a "notable warrior". It's stated that Malgus is "easily" the most renowned and feared Sith in the galaxy behind Vitiate, as well as the Empire's deadliest warrior. Out of the millions of Sith within the Empire, Malgus stands distinctively above them. And again, there's also the commentary from Palpatine putting him on a pedestal above every person ever with regards to his feats on the battlefield. I think that more than establishes him as beyond just a "notable warrior".

Sources for recent claims:

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
As established in the prior section, Malgus is consistently portrayed as below the absolute top tier in Force Power, which should be more than enough to place him considerably below Darth Krayt in that area of combat, too. As to why, Krayt scales to the most powerful Sith Lord in history (who’s in that elite class for obvious reasons) - a stance supported by:

(a) Krayt’s ability to mitigate a charged Lightning blast from a combatant who was, according to Vader’s POV, capable of defeating Sidious.

















(b) Their respective miniature stats - stats which you endorsed and used in your own post.





(c) The author of the Legacy comics stating Krayt is "in [Sidious’] class" - you’ve used author quotes in your own post, so I see no reason why I should not do the same.

John Ostrander wrote:Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the Imperial Knights in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.

(d) Any gaps which exist between them, due to potential fallibility of the above metrics, being compensated for by Krayt becoming far stronger upon his rebirth.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater."

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied."

Darth Krayt, Legacy War wrote:"I have become so much more than you can know, traitor."

Darth Krayt, Legacy: War wrote:"Surrender. You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then."

I would just like to point out that your case here is contingent on Vong Krayt's proposed proximity to ROTS Sidious who you believe is an "absolute top tier Sith" with respect to power, and ergo Krayt should be an "absolute top tier Sith" with respect to power, but as we've already established, Darth Revan is more powerful than Vong Krayt per yourself. Under this premise, your case against Malgus doesn't really make much sense. You're using Vitiate being more powerful than Malgus as a way of establishing Malgus not being an "absolute top tier Sith', yet you've stated yourself that Darth Revan is more powerful than Vong Krayt, and as we know, Darth Revan is VASTLY less powerful than Vitiate. If Vong Krayt is less powerful than Darth Revan who is vastly less powerful than Vitiate, then wouldn't that mean Vong Krayt isn't an "absolute top tier Sith" with respect to power per your own logic? Vong Krayt would get flattened almost instantly by Vitiate if the power disparity is actually that large. If Vong Krayt isn't anywhere close to the Vitiate then you're case against Malgus doesn't work.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Malgus’ biggest strength as a combatant is his experience gained from the numerous battles he’s fought in which is apparently enough to compensate for a sizable power disparity against an opponent like Arcann. But does this apply against Krayt? Not at all. Praxis himself acknowledged such, when he drew a comparison in experience between Krayt and Malgus in his opener:

In essence: Malgus is the very embodiment of what it means to be Sith, trained from birth with decades upon decades of combat experience, forged in what is quite possibly the greatest war ever seen by the Republic (this sounds familiar ~ insert image of Krayt ~).

And, indeed, Krayt is probably one of the most skilled combatants in all of Star Wars. He has the experience of fighting in The Clone Wars, having been both Jedi and Sith, decades of combat experience, thousands of kills, etc - he’s definitely in Malgus’ class in this regard.

Darth Krayt, Legacy: Claws of the Dragon wrote:"Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then."

Glad you think Malgus and Krayt are relatively equal in terms of experience. Experience is one of the biggest reasons outside of power for why Cade is capped by Krayt. If Malgus is as experienced as Krayt, that's a point for Malgus. As of right now, Krayt has no claim to being more powerful or even close to as powerful as Darth Malgus given we've established Vong Krayt as being less powerful than Darth Revan who is far less powerful than the Hero of Tython even as early as Act III who Malgus is very very likely more powerful than. If Krayt doesn't have an experience advantage over Malgus then Krayt's prospects look pretty bleak.

The Adventurous Jedi wrote:
Firstly, before I dive into Cade’s might, I want to stress that absolutely no hard caps have been presented for him beyond Galactic Files stats and intuition. Everything else in your opener only has ties to Vong Krayt, the rest of Legacy, etc, so even if I were to miraculously concede the majority of what I’ve written thus far it wouldn’t warrant the assumption that Cade loses. In fact, specifically, I want to call attention to a point consistently re-iterated in multiple of the scaling chains in your opener:

Vong Krayt > Cade.

...which is absolutely baseless. You haven’t provided any concrete link which substantiates such, and, to my knowledge, there isn’t one within the comic itself. Please provide evidence for this claim, otherwise neither myself, nor the readers, have any reason to buy it.

I was referring to Legacy 19 Cade, in which he fights Vong Krayt. I felt that was obvious but I guess not. It would have been one of my central arguments if I was referring to Cade at the end of the series, rather than an auxiliary argument.

Now, since the rest of your post deals with scaling Cade to Krayt, it isn't really relevant as long as your "Krayt top-tier Sith" argument doesn't function, which it doesn't per your own logic, so as it stands it would be a waste of time addressing what's left. I'll wait for you to take another crack at a case for Cade/Krayt in the meantime.

Conclusion

As of now, you haven't produced a functional case against Malgus and have failed to debunk any of my points. Here's what we've established so far:

1. Malgus is the very embodiment of what it means to be Sith, trained from birth with decades upon decades of combat experience, forged in what is quite possibly the greatest war ever seen by the Republic. Cade is an upstart with sporadic training and relatively minimal experience.
2. Caedus possesses far more training and experience than Cade and inherits a less diluted bloodline than Cade. Caedus' connection to the Force also has favorable comparisons to Anakin's connection with the Force, while Cade does not. Obviously, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but when forced to pick between two options you're going to lean towards the option with more tangible evidence until presented with something to the contrary.
3. Per C-canon, Revan and Caedus are above Krayt as of 2008.
4. Per S-canon, Revan is at least on par with Revelation Caedus if not above.
5. Per S-canon, Malgus is more powerful than Revan, Caedus, Krayt, and Cade.
6. Per the words of Charles Boyd, Darth Xarion, and Malgus' fights with the Outlander, Malgus is at least on par with Arcann, who is above Revan and the Hero.
7. Malgus ~ Arcann ~ Valklander > Muurne ~ Vong Krayt > Legacy 19 Cade.
8. KOTOR/SWTOR era in general has very favorable comparisons to the Legacy era through S-canon.
9. Vong Krayt is not a "top tier" Sith in terms of power per HP's metric and is less powerful than Darth Revan.

I think there are even more avenues that could be explored, namely Malak, but honestly, I see no reason to dig that deep given the current state of the debate. As it stands, HP has no tangible offense due to shooting himself in the foot. Not only has HP's argument against Malgus collapsed on itself, but Krayt's springboard characterized by his Vong iteration has also been lowered to a point that it makes it extremely difficult to propel his Reborn iteration into the upper echelons of the SWTOR hierarchy. If Krayt can't be established favorably alongside the SWTOR titans then Cade stands no chance. Cade dies.

I think I'm just gonna call this debate. It's been over a year and HP hasn't responded and he has pretty much stopped debating Star Wars altogether. I'm counting this as a win for myself as long as nobody objects with the authority to do so.