SS - Cade Skywalker (ArkhamAsylum3) vs Darth Nox (IG)

-Cade Skywalker as of Star Wars: Legacy: Vector.
-Darth Nox as of Star Wars: The Old Republic: Sith Inquisitor Storyline: Act 3.

Both sides will have 3 posts each, with 3 weeks maximum to create each one - anyone who does not meet this deadline will auto-concede. At the end of the debate, both debaters will have a week and a half to post a finisher with a maximum of 5000 characters - anyone who does not meet this deadline will, once again, auto-concede.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

-Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
-Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
-All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

Interresting. TAEP

TAEP

POWER

@IG

Time to kick this off. My core argument is that - as far as I’m aware - there is no direct - even arguable - scaling chain that can be established to place Nox above Cade, whereas, in total contrast, there are ways to tie Cade back to her. Because there is no direct scaling chain, you will have to resort to just highlighting Nox’s impressive displays of power, but ultimately, you need to elaborate on why they’re beyond Cade’s ability to replicate - which is pretty hard to do given that Cade doesn’t have a definitive cap on most of his abilities - as otherwise there is no reason to assume they place Nox above him. I can also cite impressive displays of power for Cade, yet I’m not just going to say they’re all beyond Nox without reason.

1) Shuttle Feat and Subsequent Scaling

I will begin my post by elaborating on the point from my intro in red. At the start of Legacy, due to the death of his father - Kol Skywalker - during Krayt’s purge of the Jedi, Cade left the Jedi Order and became addicted to death sticks - using them to numb his connection to the Force. He did nothing in the way of training for many years and allowed himself to waste away. Despite this massive decline, when the situation arose where Cade was required to call upon the Force he showed the ability to throw a massive piece of starship debris - that is visibly far larger than the characters standing around it - at Darth Talon, hitting her with such force it carried her out of the Jedi’s line of sight:







This clearly shows Cade has immense power, and this is him at his lowest point. Shortly after this, Cade was tracked down by Wolf Sazen, Shado Vao, and K'Kruhk - Jedi that survived Krayt’s purge - who offered to re-train him in the ways of the Force. Cade accepted and made substantial gains in power from this, but despite it was still below both his Master - Wolf Sazen - and Shado Vao. Wolf Sazen manages to defeat him in H2H combat with a single-arm - clearly showing comparable/superior Force Augmentation - indicating his applicable power is on the same level as Cade’s:













And, Shado Vao outperforms Cade in their fight against the Yuuzhan Vong:







This leads to my next point, which is that Cade - even with his new training - is clearly massively weaker than some of the strongest Sith in Krayt’s Empire. Most notably Cade is inferior to Krayt’s “special agents throughout the galaxy” who “perform secret tasks at Krayt’s whim”, and hold a position of “great honor” within Krayt's Empire (one that is “fought over among the Sith Lords viciously”) - Krayt's Hands.

Legacy Era Campaign Guide wrote:With her master dead by her hands, Darth Talon becomes Darth Krayt's Hand, a special agent for the Emperor and the counterpart to Darth Nihl.

Legacy Era Campaign Guide wrote:A select few Sith Lords are given the title of Emperor's Hand, a tradition that Darth Krayt has resurrected from the days of Palpatine. These Hands function as the Emperor's agents throughout the galaxy, performing secret tasks at Krayt's whim. The position of Emperor's Hand is one of great honor, and it is fought over among the Sith Lords viciously.

Their superiority to Cade is shown through Darth Talon - one of Krayt’s Hands - defeating both Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao - Cade’s equals/superiors - simultaneously with her Force abilities:













And through Darth Nihl - another one of Krayt’s Hands - restraining Cade with a Force Choke:









But, Cade’s significant inferiority to the best in Krayt’s Empire soon changes. After his aforementioned defeat at the hands of Darth Nihl, Cade is taken to Krayt and trained as a Sith. Cade comes out of this training as much more powerful, and as a result of it, finally demonstrates superiority to those who were his betters before the training - decisively beating Darth Nihl:







And, Darth Talon:







By the time of Legacy: Vector, Cade is clearly a force to be reckoned with.

Overall:

Vector Cade >> Either of Darth Krayt’s Hands >> Wolf Sazen+Shado Vao >> Shado Vao ~ Wolf Sazen > Jedi Training Cade >> Start of Series Cade > Throwing a massive shuttle.

However, this scaling is merely to establish Cade as a powerful foe and to demonstrate a point that I, too, can establish solid feats and scaling, but it isn’t enough to claim Cade is superior. Much like many of Nox’s feats, it cannot be directly tied back to his opponent. Nonetheless, there is a direct link between Cade and Nox which establishes Cade as the more powerful of the two.

2) Cade > Nox

A) Nox

It is time for me to elaborate on my point in blue from the intro of my post. At the end of the Sith Inquisitor Storyline in SWTOR, Darth Thanaton is defeated by Nox in a Kaggath - an all-out war between the power bases of two Sith - and flees the battleground, retreating to Korriban in order to seek aid from the Dark Council - the most powerful Force Users in the Sith Empire. When he arrives on Korriban the Council ignores his plea for help, and he is forced to duel Nox. Nox “utterly destroys” him (SWTOR: Encyclopedia) in front of the Council, without effort - pretty much walking unhurt through his Lightning Storm, and ragdolling him. This is clearly Nox’s most potent demonstration in the whole storyline.

However, while Nox’s display is impressive - and the Dark Council accepts her into their ranks - they are still clearly unfazed by it, and when Nox attempts to threaten Darth Marr (7:12 of the video) - the leader of the Council - he notes: “I think you will find us more than equal to your threats.” This indicates the members of the Dark Council present were stronger than Nox, and would not be easily intimidated by her.

B) Lord Scourge - The Emperor’s Wrath

Lord Scourge - The Emperor’s Wrath - is an exceptionally powerful Force Wielder who is probably more powerful than Nox. His codex entry gives us an insight into his abilities:

The Old Republic: Codex: Lord Scourge (Knight) wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title “the Emperor’s Wrath."

Refer to the underlined, as it gives us a direct comparison between Nox and Scourge. As emphasised in section A, the Dark Council was totally nonchalant about Nox’s power, and none of them appeared to be worried about her threats - they were confident in their superiority. In total contrast, the Dark Council ("even the most powerful members") actively avoid “offending the man bearing the title ‘the Emperor’s Wrath’” - they clearly are frightened of Scourge, and don’t want to run the risk of him coming to blows with them (i.e. they’re not confident in their superiority). Scourge’s holistic standing clearly places him above Nox, and such an idea aligns with other evidence. Scourge didn’t kill “more than a hundred Jedi-and ten times as many Sith” nor last 3 centuries as The Emperor’s personal enforcer by being weaker than every new group of Dark Council members - he had to be capable of taking out whoever The Emperor asked him to.

C) Act 3 Vitiate

During Act 3 of the Jedi Knight storyline in SWTOR, the Sith Emperor attempted to enact a ritual to drain all life in the galaxy, and the Jedi sent the Hero of Tython to confront him - as a last-ditch effort to stop the ritual. Scourge states - prior to the Hero of Tython entering the Dark Temple to face The Emperor - that the Hero of Tython would have to confront The Emperor “alone”, because “no one else can resist his direct influence”. This statement includes Scourge himself, and clearly indicates that he would not contribute positively to the Hero of Tython’s effort to stop Vitiate - he would be casually dominated and turned against the Hero, hindering the Hero’s progress.

D) Full Power Vitiate

The aforementioned iteration of Vitiate (Act 3) was not at his strongest. Due to his attempt to drain all life in the galaxy - that I talked about prior - he was “weakened”, and multiple characters emphasise to the Hero that it is imperative he capitalises on this. For example, Scourge states: “The Emperor will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power.”

To clarify, this weakness on Vitiate’s part is relevant to note, as the quote I cited makes it obvious Vitiate was not just weakened, but substantially so. It makes no sense for Scourge to be worried about Vitiate having time to gather his power, nor heavily emphasise that the Hero’s only chance to stop Vitiate is by capitalising on his weakness if he was only a bit below his base strength, as in that scenario the Hero would still be in with a fighting chance even if The Emperor recovered.

E) Darth Sidious

Darth Sidious is canonically the most powerful Sith Lord of all time - as backed by several sources - placing him above Full Power Vitiate, and thus substantially beyond Act 3 Vitiate:

https://www.writeurl.com/text/eqi2ghxpofra6422ziew/guxsl16suprkiy9603lo

While I don’t necessarily think that all of his supposed supremacy quotes in the link are legitimate - and some don’t even apply to TPM-ROTS Sidious - I do think Sidious’s supremacy is well established, and to try and offer up a rebuttal to every single one of the quotes provided is a fool’s errand.

F) Darth Maul

As of The Clone Wars: Season 5, Darth Sidious views his former apprentice, Darth Maul, as a “rival” and opts to eliminate him. Sidious’s attempt to deal with Maul culminates in a Lightsaber duel between him, Maul and Maul’s Apprentice - Savage Opress. While the duo was ultimately significantly outmatched, there are a few key points to note:

(1) Sidious proved incapable of instantly dispatching Maul - he needed to abuse openings made by Maul in order to successfully utilise Telekinesis against him:

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

(2) During the initial exchange, Sidious strains under the combined strength of the brother’s:

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul stared up at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there too – a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.

(3) At the start of the duel, the duo manage to force Sidious back and push him off the balcony:



All 3 points ultimately say the same thing: that Maul can put up a decent fight with aid and cannot be casually disposed of by Sidious. This allows us to draw a direct comparison between Maul and Scourge - whose power level I discussed earlier in the post: Scourge with the help of a fighter who is stronger than both him and his opponent would be casually one-shotted by a Sith far weaker than Sidious, meanwhile Maul with the help of a fighter who is weaker than both him and his opponent puts up a solid fight and cannot be casually one-shotted by Sidious.

The above comparison creates a substantial gap between Maul and Scourge who is already significantly above Nox

Tl;dr Maul >> Scourge >> Nox.

G) Obi-Wan Kenobi

The same Maul that did okay against Sidious demonstrably shows parity with an iteration of Kenobi that is weaker than his ROTS incarnation:

-Kenobi duels him for a minute with no decisive edge shown either way, though I will note that Kenobi is the only one to land a physical strike in that part of the fight.

-Later in the duel, Kenobi takes on both Maul and Savage. Throughout the exchange, he manages to hold off the duo’s onslaught for a significant period of time and injure Savage.

ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> Scourge >> Darth Nox.

H) A’Sharad Hett

Two years after Revenge of the Sith, Kenobi ends up having to face the once great Jedi A’Sharad Hett in order to protect Luke. Everything considered Hett manages to put up a pretty solid fight against him:

The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Firstly, to clarify, Kenobi is on the same level as he was during Revenge of the Sith, thereby scaling him above the iteration that duelled evenly with Maul - it is stated that Kenobi had “continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine” and “not allowed his reflexes to become dull". Secondly, Hett shows closeness with Kenobi - he lands multiple blows on the latter and causes him difficulty when Kenobi attempts to defend against and dodge some of his attacks: “Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. [...] Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease.” You’ve even compared the disparity to that of Jinn and Maul on Discord - though I won’t post screenshots because I’ve been berated for doing that in the past - which is a far smaller gap than the one I’ve demonstrated between Nox and Kenobi.

A’Sharad Hett ~ ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi => TCW S5 Maul >> Scourge >> Nox.

I) Darth Krayt

A’Sharad Hett - now Darth Krayt - as of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon is significantly more powerful than he was when he faced Obi-Wan Kenobi. You have admitted to me on Discord that you disagree with this premise - presumably due to the fact Krayt is heavily weakened by the Vong Coral Seeds at this point - but I see no reason as to why he should have declined so much that he’d be weaker than his Jedi self. During Legacy: Claws of the Dragon, Krayt states:

Darth Krayt wrote:Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then.

Krayt explains here why he’s stronger than Cade - the depth of his training, how many opponents he’s killed, how he honed his skills during war, etc. Now answer me this very simple question: why would Krayt be ranting about all of this, if he’s in actuality declined so far that he’s below his Jedi self, thereby making all of it irrelevant? It makes absolutely no sense - the simplest explanation is that Krayt is stronger than he was a Jedi. His years of training, experience, knowledge collection, etc, don’t just go away, because his physical condition has got worse.

Tl;dr Krayt, even while weakened, should still be significantly beyond his Jedi self.

Darth Krayt >> A’Sharad Hett ~ ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi => TCW S5 Maul >> Scourge >> Nox.

J) Cade Skywalker

During Legacy: Claws of the Dragon - about 10 issues prior to Vector - Cade holds off the aforementioned iteration of Krayt in Lightsaber combat:







A few things to note:

(1) The dialogue is incredibly lengthy, and if read at a moderate pace, takes about a minute and a half to get through. Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, clarifies that most Lightsaber duels - as they’re too taxing for both combatants - rarely last more than a minute:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

Cade vs Krayt is much longer - by Lightsaber duel standards - than a minute indicating considerable closeness between both combatants not present in the majority of other fights.

(2) Cade taxes Krayt so greatly that the Vong Coral Seeds threatening to take him start to majorly affect him, and Krayt needs to enter stasis to recover:

Cade Skywalker wrote:I can see what fighting me is costing you. Those Vong… things in your innards. Nasty little critters want to take you over real bad. What do they feel like, huh? Something gnawing your guts? Clawing at you? Tell me -- do the other Sith know how sick you really are? How weak? What would they do if they knew?

Darth Krayt wrote:Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.

(3) While Krayt was not attempting to kill Cade he still was trying his hardest to beat him into submission - becoming very taxed as a result, and visibly fuming throughout. You’ve said that you believe there is a Jinn-Maul disparity between Hett and Kenobi, despite Kenobi likewise not wanting to kill Hett in that instance. The exact same should apply here - Cade has closeness with Krayt, and should still be close even despite Krayt holding back.

In summary, an enraged Krayt failed to beat Cade into submission for half a minute and taxed himself so much he had to go into stasis to recover - indicating the two are somewhat comparable.

Cade ~ Darth Krayt >> A’Sharad Hett ~ ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi > Maul >> Scourge >> Nox.

3) Conclusion

Cade scales considerably above Nox in power. He wins, and it isn't particularly close.

@Nute_Chethray @Xolthol You asked for a tag.

Good starter

Really interresting opening. Let's see how @IG will respond

“From slavery rises the most powerful Sith Lord in generations… Darth Thanaton is right to fear you.”


Introduction


As HP did, I’ll be establishing a simple scaling for Nox, establishing her growth across the course of her class story and an impressive feat she scales off of via this. I’ll then be creating a direct scaling chain from Nox to Cade, and then will add a few supplementary arguments that help my case. 


Section I - Dark Temple and Scalings


Darth Nox as of the End of Act I is superior or equal to her former master Zash. This is evidenced through their duel, in which Zash claims Nox is “too powerful”, and Nox claims, “Zash was weak, and I crushed her easily”. Per the Spirit of Aloysius Kallig, he is “too weak to face Zash”.


Now Kallig’s greatest feat is likely his mental domination of hundreds or thousands of slaves and Sith within the temple. Per Kallig, “When the weaklings of this planet trespassed my tomb, I rose, resuming my former life. This temple became my kingdom, and I was once more a Lord of the Sith”. Kallig’s power “overwhelmed all inside the temple”, per Lord Alaric. We see this reflected within the game as well, practically everyone you find inside the Dark Temple is a lunatic, driven mad by Kallig’s power. The “strange events in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas have Kallig at their center”. 


Yet when Nox visits the tomb of Darth Andru on an errand from Darth Thanaton, Andru nigh-instantaneously overwhelms Nox and her companion: 


 


Nox then finds out about Forcewalking, a ritual which, “Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies”. Nox then binds the spirit of the Servant of Ergast, and subsequently becomes powerful enough to overpower Andru and bind him:





By consuming Ergast, Nox jumps the oneshot gap necessary to outright bind Andru, and then can draw on Andru’s own power, thus jumping 2 oneshot gaps via consuming these two spirits. 


Yet despite this, Nox is still oneshotted by Thanaton in combat. Thanaton kills Nox with one attack:





However, by the end of Act 3, Nox can oneshot Thanaton. Nox can casually backhand Thanaton’s lightning, force him to his knees with telekinesis, and resist a charged lightning storm of Thanaton’s, escaping unscathed, as you’ve mentioned. She “utterly destroyed” him.


Nox indisputably grows several oneshot gaps across the Sith Inquisitor storyline. She scales immensely beyond her Act I self, who is superior to Kallig’s Telepathic domination. 


Thus establishing:


Act 3 Nox >>> Thanaton >>>> BoAct 2 Nox with 2 Spirits >>> BoAct 2 Nox with 1 Spirit > Darth Andru >>> Act I Nox >= Zash > Kallig


However, as HP detailed, this is too vague to definitely claim superiority over Cade. We can’t give some random feat, scaling over it, then say that our character is superior, it’s not a realistic approach. However, there is direct scaling between Nox and Cade that shows the former is more powerful than the latter. 


Section 2 - Nox’s Superiority


Revan


During the middle of Act 2, Nox, along with a strike team consisting of the Second Emperor’s Wrath, the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt, and Cipher 9 fight through an army on the Foundry and confront Revan himself, ultimately emerging victorious. 


Normally, since this is a shared feat, we wouldn’t be able to scale Nox off of it, however, due to Nox’s unique scaling and growth, we can do so. We know that factually, Nox survives this fight. Nox is not oneshotted by Revan casually. If we could claim that, then the entirety of the strike team should’ve fallen. It makes no sense that Nox is somehow oneshotted and then survives, yet the non-force sensitives emerge alive. 


To add to this, Nox and the Strike Team fight through an assortment of foes on the Foundry, including Armies of Droids, an army of Jedi, and HK-47 among others. Consider, that there are only two force sensitives on this entire team. The other two members are non-force sensitive, meaning that Nox and the Second Wrath alone are enough that Revan is utterly incapable of focusing on the other members enough to outright kill them with the Force like he should be able to.


We firmly can establish from here that Revan cannot oneshot Nox on the Foundry. This is important because of the oneshot gap Nox grows from here on out. As of the Foundry mission, Nox has consumed the spirits of 3 Sith Lords, and proceeds to consume the spirit of one more. We know that the consumption of one Sith Lord elevates Nox from being oneshotted by Darth Andru to being able to dominate and consume Andru. Yet this on its own isn’t the only evidence we have for Nox jumping a oneshot gap from the Foundry to the end of Act 3. 


At the end of Act 2, Nox is nearly killed during her bout with Thanaton because of the Force-Walking Sickness, as “binding too many ghosts can quickly overwhelm the host, inflicting physical and spiritual sickness on the Force-walking”. Nox’s body isn’t able to handle the strain of the amount of ghosts she’s bound to herself, and nearly kills herself in the process of using the spirits’ power. The use of the spirits’ power results in an “explosion that nearly destroyed them all”. 


Nox’s power as of Act 2 isn’t particularly combat applicable. She can’t utilize it, shown when she tries against Thanaton and blows up, causing an explosion that oneshots Thanaton and nearly kills herself. Across Act 3, she’s able to rectify this so that she can properly utilize this power by rebuilding her body with the Rakatan Mother Machine, a machine “designed to restore their [Rakatan] Force sensitivity”. She rebuilds her body in order to be able to handle the power, and then goes on to Voss, where she learns the Ritual of Dreamwalking, in order to “face [her] own fears, hopes, loves and rages, seeking spiritual balance and health”, thus healing her body both physically and spiritually from the Force-walking sickness. She’s then able to use the power combatively, as evidenced in her utter destruction of Thanaton in their final fight. 


So Nox as of Act 3 is at least a oneshot gap over herself as of the Foundry, and as of the Foundry, Nox is not in Revan’s oneshot range. This means that Nox is indubitably superior to Foundry Revan. Logically, if Character A (Act 3 Nox) can oneshot Character C (Foundry Nox), but Character B (Foundry Revan) can’t oneshot Character C, then Character A is logically more powerful than Character B. 


Revan, Part 2, and Star Maps


It’s commonly assumed on this forum that Revan’s iteration on the Foundry is weaker than his past iterations because he lost to the Foundry Strike team. This is a notion that has no basis in fact nor logic, however. If anything, the evidence points to Revan being more powerful on the Foundry, or at least equally powerful, to his past iterations. Per SWTOR, when Revan channels both sides of the force, he has “become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of”. Consider, that Revan’s already using the Force in ways few have imagined, he’s capable of using the Force in Balance on the Foundry as well, several times. Per the game, “Revan has begun to channel the Force to become more powerful” when channeling the force in balance. The first time we see Revan ever use the Force in Balance, it’s enough to “send Revan staggering”. However, in the Foundry, he’s using the force in balance to amp himself and make himself more powerful. He’s able to utilize the Force in ways he’s never been shown to before. All the evidence that points towards anything here points towards Revan being equally as powerful or more powerful than his novel self. 


This is important because of the magnitudes of power Revan Reborn scales over Karness Muur. Upon recovering his mask, Revan becomes more powerful by regaining his memories and dark side knowledge. But as of KOTOR, he defeats Malak several times over on a nexus so powerful it “is like a living creature”, after fighting for an “hour”. Where Ajunta Pall, leader of the Dark Jedi Exiles found the power of the Korriban Star Map to be “blinding”, Malak’s able to master the Star Forge, and drive it to unprecedented levels, a clear indication of immense superiority. 


Karness Muur


Ajunta Pall is more powerful than Karness Muur, evidenced by his status as leader of the Exiles. 


As a spirit, 7000 years after his death, Karness Muur possesses powers equal to (at the least), or greater than those of Cade Skywalker as of Vector. Per Insider #113, “ On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both”. To outshine is to “be much better” at something than someone. The quote declares that Karness Muur (as the third Force-user) has powers that surpass both Cade and Krayt. The notion is backed up in the publisher’s summary, which asks “But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?”. While we don’t take publisher’s summaries as absolute truths in and of themselves, they should be considered general indicators, used as supplementary evidence. The quote in question here clearly implies that Krayt is weaker than Muur, and the first quote states Muur’s powers eclipse those of Cade and Krayt. We can assume from this that at a minimum, Muur is on their level, if not superior, as he’s depicted to be in the lore. 



Muur engages in a protracted duel with Krayt, in which the former holds an upper hand the entire time. Meanwhile, Cade engages in a duel with Darth Stryfe, getting telekinetically stalemated and then exploits his own stylistic advantage to kick Stryfe back, who gets blown up by some grenades:








At the end of this, Muur and Krayt are still fighting, with Krayt joined by Darth Maladi, a contemporary of Shado Vao, who benefits partially from the scaling chain you laid forth for Cade.





The implications of this should be immediately obvious. Neither Cade, nor his contemporary/superior in Krayt are capable of oneshotting Muur. To contrast, Nox can, several times over. Thus Nox is more powerful than Cade, and not by a small margin either. 


Section 3 - Cade Doesn’t Scale Above


The Dark Council

It is time for me to elaborate on my point in blue from the intro of my post. At the end of the Sith Inquisitor Storyline in SWTOR, Darth Thanaton is defeated by Nox in a Kaggath - an all-out war between the power bases of two Sith - and flees the battleground, retreating to Korriban in order to seek aid from the Dark Council - the most powerful Force Users in the Sith Empire. When he arrives on Korriban the Council ignores his plea for help, and he is forced to duel Nox. Nox “utterly destroys” him (SWTOR: Encyclopedia) in front of the Council, without effort - pretty much walking unhurt through his Lightning Storm, and ragdolling him. This is clearly Nox’s most potent demonstration in the whole storyline.


However, while Nox’s display is impressive - and the Dark Council accepts her into their ranks - they are still clearly unfazed by it, and when Nox attempts to threaten Darth Marr (7:12 of the video) - the leader of the Council - he notes: “I think you will find us more than equal to your threats.” This indicates the members of the Dark Council present were stronger than Nox, and would not be easily intimidated by her.

Above, my opponent posits that because Darth Marr isn’t shivering in fright at Nox’s threats, it indicates any of the Dark Council is superior to her. Per Marr’s codex entry, “With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned”.  Marr’s thoughts are explicitly impossible to determine, and he’s not one to give into emotion so easily. The idea of him shivering in fright over one of Nox’s threats is absurd, it’s insanely out of character for him. To claim Marr is superior to Nox is fine, but to claim all the Dark Council is above her, simply because of a character not giving into a threat or bowing in fear when not doing something like that is in his character is absurd. 


Scourge

Refer to the underlined, as it gives us a direct comparison between Nox and Scourge. As emphasised in section A, the Dark Council was totally nonchalant about Nox’s power, and none of them appeared to be worried about her threats - they were confident in their superiority. In total contrast, the Dark Council ("even the most powerful members") actively avoid “offending the man bearing the title ‘the Emperor’s Wrath’” - they clearly are frightened of Scourge, and don’t want to run the risk of him coming to blows with them (i.e. they’re not confident in their superiority). Scourge’s holistic standing clearly places him above Nox, and such an idea aligns with other evidence. Scourge didn’t kill “more than a hundred Jedi-and ten times as many Sith” nor last 3 centuries as The Emperor’s personal enforcer by being weaker than every new group of Dark Council members - he had to be capable of taking out whoever The Emperor asked him to.

According to the SWTOR Encyclopedia, “the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith” are who make up the Dark Council. They are all “among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy”, and even non-force sensitives can claim they are “the galaxy’s most powerful Sith”.  Nox is at least a oneshot gap over the weakest of those that are the galaxy’s most powerful Sith. The same Sith who include Lord Scourge himself. Assume for an instant that Thanaton is only equivalent with Scourge, Nox is still oneshotting Scourge. The Dark Council’s holistic standing places them as the most powerful Sith in the Empire, not people that would be easily frightened into submission by Scourge.


 Your argument is based on the idea that character opinions are valid ways to outright claim definitive power levels, but that’s an argument that has no basis in fact nor logic. By that token, I could just as easily claim that Darth Decimus claiming Nox is “the most powerful Sith Lord in generations'' scales Nox above any other Sith in the Empire as well. There’s a very limited set of characters we can truly use character opinions as a gauge for power with, a group that neither Scourge, nor Nox are in. 


Furthermore, it makes far more sense that the Dark Council is scared of Scourge’s position, not necessarily his power. Scourge is the Emperor’s personal executioner, to incur his wrath is to incur the Emperor’s, a wrath that none on the Council wish to suffer. Darth Marr as of Act 3 of the Sith Warrior storyline bows down before the Second Wrath, yet as early as the Battle of Ilum, not too far after, “his abilities are second to none”, indicating superiority. Scourge didn’t even earn his position as Emperor’s Wrath through power, he earned it as a reward for betraying Revan and Meetra. Earlier in the novel we see Scourge utterly fodderized by Darth Nyriss, alongside Meetra Surik. Is this someone that’s going to frighten Dark Councils into submission? No, it’s someone whose position would, especially since Vitiate is all but a deity in the eyes of these Sith.


Maul

The same Maul that did okay against Sidious demonstrably shows parity with an iteration of Kenobi that is weaker than his ROTS incarnation:


-Kenobi duels him for a minute with no decisive edge shown either way, though I will note that Kenobi is the only one to land a physical strike in that part of the fight.


-Later in the duel, Kenobi takes on both Maul and Savage. Throughout the exchange, he manages to hold off the duo’s onslaught for a significant period of time and injure Savage.


ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi => TCW Darth Maul >> Scourge >> Darth Nox.

I take issue with the first part of this claim. Maul as of the first episode of S5 of TCW is not the same as Maul as of The Lawless, in which he and Savage face off against Sidious. 


https://imgur.com/a/ZfXwKQD


The above link dictates that Savage holds superiority in the force to Maul as of Season 4. Yet Maul by Episode 1 of Season 5 is outright obliterating Savage. Considering Savage undergoes daily growth per Count Dooku, who says, “That creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes... He is a threat to all of us”. It’s safe to say Maul’s growth rate is absurd. He’s growing from weaker than Savage to outright destroying him in a fight. Savage is likewise growing daily. It’s evident that we can’t scale The Lawless Maul to BoS5 Maul, and thus this facet of the chain falls apart. Maul’s daily growth rate is too much for Kenobi to effectively scale off of his later iterations. We have no real way of telling if Kenobi’s growth is equivalent to Maul’s. 


Krayt 

A’Sharad Hett - now Darth Krayt - as of Legacy: Claws of the Dragon is significantly more powerful than he was when he faced Obi-Wan Kenobi. You have admitted to me on Discord that you disagree with this premise - presumably due to the fact Krayt is heavily weakened by the Vong Coral Seeds at this point - but I see no reason as to why he should have declined so much that he’d be weaker than his Jedi self. During Legacy: Claws of the Dragon, Krayt states:


Krayt explains here why he’s stronger than Cade - the depth of his training, how many opponents he’s killed, how he honed his skills during war, etc. Now answer me this very simple question: why would Krayt be ranting about all of this, if he’s in actuality declined so far that he’s below his Jedi self, thereby making all of it irrelevant? It makes absolutely no sense - the simplest explanation is that Krayt is stronger than he was a Jedi. His years of training, experience, knowledge collection, etc, don’t just go away, because his physical condition has got worse.


Tl;dr Krayt, even while weakened, should still be significantly beyond his Jedi self.


Darth Krayt >> A’Sharad Hett ~ ROTS Kenobi > TCW S5 Kenobi => TCW S5 Maul >> Scourge >> Nox.

Krayt’s ranting isn’t indicative of superiority to himself as Hett. Sith boast, it’s part of their nature as characters. Karness Muur claims to have slain Sith more powerful than Krayt as of Had Abbadon, is this true? Not necessarily, we have no way of verifying that claim bar Muur himself. The same would be true of Krayt’s claim unless there was evidence that suggested Krayt has declined immensely, which there is.


During the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, Krayt is implanted with Coral Seeds, or Yorik-Kul. The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology elaborates, telling us a few vital pieces of information. Firstly, the microbes “travel through the victim’s bloodstream and infect every cell”, and “In many ways, the millions of coral spawn combine with the coral implant and the host to form a single, compound organism. After prolonged exposure to a coral implant, it becomes virtually impossible to distinguish where the Yuuzhan Vong creature begins and the host ends”. Meaning that the Vong Coral seeds have infected every part of Krayt’s being. Krayt, for all intents and purposes, is majority Yuuzhan Vong. We see what happens to Darth Vader after Mustafar, after he loses most of his body parts. He loses a lot of his potential, and a lot of his power in the Force as well. Per George Lucas:

George Lucas wrote:"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” 


“But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. 

When people lose body parts in Star Wars, they typically experience a loss in power. Anakin’s injuries are immense on Mustafar, true, but Krayt’s loss of himself is enough that it is, as previously quoted, almost impossible to tell where the Vong part of him ends and where Hett begins. Where Anakin is more machine than man, Krayt is more Vong than man, and thus for all intents and purposes, just like Anakin, has “a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left”. 


Hell, even the Essential Guide supports this in Krayt’s case, claiming, “The implant can also sever a being’s connection to the Force”. Now obviously, Krayt’s connection to the Force isn’t severed, but it’s diminished. The Legacy Campaign Guide tells us Krayt is “artificially increasing his lifespan”. The idea Krayt is far stronger a little before Vector than he is as Hett is not only wrong, it’s baseless too. Your argument for this simply consists of claiming Krayt’s boasting pins him as superior to Hett, but that’s contradicted by virtually every source I’ve presented here. 


Cade 

A few things to note:


(1) The dialogue is incredibly lengthy, and if read at a moderate pace, takes about a minute and a half to get through. Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil, clarifies that most Lightsaber duels - as they’re too taxing for both combatants - rarely last more than a minute:


Cade vs Krayt is much longer - by Lightsaber duel standards - than a minute indicating considerable closeness between both combatants not present in the majority of other fights.

Zannah’s claim is based on what is likely her own experience as a duelist. We know that one’s own power in the Force determines their augmentative capabilities, and therefore their stamina. Zannah’s just… immensely weaker than basically every other major character there is. At this stage, Zannah’s still inferior to Bane. If I had to draw out a scaling chain from Bane to any reasonably powerful figure in the PT (Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, Sidious, Kenobi, etc), Bane comes out remarkably badly. Leaps and bounds below


Your claim in your opener is that Cade Skywalker scales reasonably beyond Kenobi, but in Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan duels Anakin for a period of no less than 4 minutes. If Cade and Krayt’s stamina is so little that a duel you’ve estimated to be around one and a half minutes is taxing enough for both to declare them equals, then logically aren’t they weaker than Kenobi? The duel is extremely one-sided, not something we can use to declare equality. Anakin’s fight against Obi-Wan on Mustafar is 4 minutes long, but Anakin’s power in the Force is still considerably beyond Obi-Wan. 


The entire premise for declaring Cade’s equality to Krayt hinges on a single premise, that Cade’s duel with Krayt lasting over a minute means that they’re equals. This is something that’s either outright wrong, or something that disproves either of them being near Kenobi, let alone beyond him. The length of the fight means little in regards to the fighters’ placement near each other. Especially since Krayt is, like you’ve said, not going for kill shots, meaning that he won’t exploit openings that can potentially harm Cade severely. 

(2) Cade taxes Krayt so greatly that the Vong Coral Seeds threatening to take him start to majorly affect him, and Krayt needs to enter stasis to recover:

Which isn’t impressive in the slightest. Early on, during Legacy 1, and therefore before Krayt’s Coral Seeds overtake them as much as they have later on in Legacy, Krayt tells Wyyrlok, “my body fails me” after a brief fight with a group of Imperial Knights. Are these Knights at the level of Cade himself? Are four random fodder on par with Cade Skywalker? It seems far more likely that any fight is going to take a lot out of Krayt, especially in the condition that he’s in. The idea is definitely backed up by the notion that a far stronger Krayt is greatly taxed by stomping four random fodder. 

(3) While Krayt was not attempting to kill Cade he still was trying his hardest to beat him into submission - becoming very taxed as a result, and visibly fuming throughout. You’ve said that you believe there is a Jinn-Maul disparity between Hett and Kenobi, despite Kenobi likewise not wanting to kill Hett in that instance. The exact same should apply here - Cade has closeness with Krayt, and should still be close even despite Krayt holding back.

Except none of this really holds. Krayt and Cade aren’t really close, the length of their fight isn’t that impressive, and Cade’s taxing of Krayt isn’t really impressive when we see random fodder doing it too. Krayt’s quite possibly not even giving this fight his all. He needs Cade alive and functional in order for Cade to heal him. So he won’t go to lengths like causing grievous injuries, or getting in cheapshots that might permanently maim Cade. The fight shows Krayt as of this stage cannot oneshot or even stomp Cade, but it doesn’t display parity to the degree you’ve claimed. 


Conclusion


I believe thus far I’ve adequately addressed all of my opponent’s points while simultaneously adding my own. But the points are as follows:

• Nox is not weaker than Lord Scourge. 
  
• Kenobi is not necessarily more powerful than the Maul that fought Sidious.
  
• Darth Krayt as of his fight with Cade is weaker than A’Sharad Hett. 
  
• Cade is not necessarily as powerful as Krayt. 
  
• Nox is more powerful than Revan Reborn, who’s immensely more powerful than Karness Muur, who himself is either a contemporary of, or a superior of Cade Skywalker as of Vector. 
  

Nox scales considerably above Cade in power. She wins, and it isn't particularly close.

@NotAA3 @xolthol @Nute_Chethray

Well that was underwhelming...

Hmm. I won't lie, I expected more. It's not a bad post, good even - you did a good job substantiating the scaling, for example - but like DC said...underwhelming.

hmmm decent post

@IG Good post and interresting reasoning

Can everyone please stop shitting on IG? If you've got nothing to say but negative things then don't say anything at all. You're not actually offering any constructive criticism, and all your comments serve to do is bring him down.

Feel free to comment after the debate is done - and actually give criticism - but until then hold off.

Great attitude @NotAA3

And I liked your post IG, despite not having played Inquisitor storyline yet i always appreciate him getting respect

@NotAA3 When is your response coming?

@Azronger Hoping to get it done this week, though it could extend into the following week as well - it depends on my motivation levels + time.

Fyi, I still have 2 weeks to respond, and IG has granted me two extra days following that (I'm hoping I won't need them) due to the fact that I haven't been able to work on my post for the past couple of days.

Time limits: Seeing as IG is taking a break from SI, we've both agreed to drop all time limits for now, however when he returns the time limits will presumably resume. That means neither of us are required to post within the limits as of now (though, I'll still try to get my post done on time).

IG has conceded the debate to me on Discord, so it won't be continuing.