The Wizards and their Brutes face off

Prime Exar Kun & Ulic Qel-Droma Vs SoR Revan & SF Malak Vs TPM Sidious & RotJ Vader

SoR Revan is above Vitiate.

SoR Revan = all the energy from the surface of a planet to the atmosphere. Each square meter is youngling level. (tier - quadrillions)

Revan solos.

Kun is worth thousands of massassi, Vader and Sidious are worth only their dark side degeneration so are tier 8s.

Kun solos team 3 also.

You know, I think we deserve Coronavirus tbh. If these posts and this thread says something about us as a species, about the majority of humanity. Perhaps we don't deserve to exist.

iamthatguy wrote:Yeah but Sheev actually has combat feats that put him at that level, whereas Kun's combat feats are Sub Dooku, and by quotes (which I know you love) sub TPM Maul.

TPM Maul also created a DS nexus on Naboo, so it's not like that makes someone a top tier in SW.

1.Exar Kun immediately after that ritual, used his newfound power to defend against a salvo of the combined power of the entire Jedi Order(tens of thousands per KOTOR:CG, given SWTOR: Revan claims the Triumvirate killed tens of thousands by themselves, then we're looking at more like the 20-30k range), referred to as a 'titanic battle'. No hilarious attempts at appealing to Maul's lightsaber skills is going to stop this feat from easily being among the best in the lore and enormously beyond anything Maul has.

2.TPM Maul leaving behind a stain of power is nowhere near the same as literally being a nexus of dark side energy. Especially given, as was pointed out, that the nexus Kun is being compared to, is evidently far beyond random generic ones given Luke's faced plenty of them before he met DE Sheev in person.

3.Given that Exar Kun has to be at his strongest point ever when he loses the 'titanic' clash of powers. Then all of the quotes spirit Kun gets, which compare him to ROTJ or DE Sheev by varying degrees, must apply to this, the strongest of his incarnations. And given shedding limitations, none of the supremacy quotes can save you here either.

@LadyKulvax

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/20/30/38/24/maul_s10.png

TPM Maul>Exar Kun

Fodderized.

A quote about lightsaber skills in a possibly IU children's book. The only one getting fodderised is Maul, in any Force exchange.

LadyKulvax wrote:A quote about lightsaber skills in a possibly IU children's book. The only one getting fodderised is Maul, in any Force exchange.

Where does it indicate anything about lightsaber skill? It actually says "bearing the full power of the dark side", so in all likeliness it would be referring to force power instead of lightsaber skills.

Maul>>>>Fodder Exar Kun.

Plo Koon has a better chance at beating Maul than Failiar kun.

So Maul fighting Jinn in a pure lightsaber duel, is proof that the Sith are back and deadlier than ever in terms of demonstrated Force power? There's a thousand characters with 'full power of the dark side' quotes. Kun gets that before he even leaves Yavin, I suppose that pre-Cinnagar Kun is = TPM Maul, then. Right? The end of the quote is quite obviously the underlying evidence for this claim, his displayed skills against Qui-Gon Jinn.

If we're using quotes, shall I bring up the quote over a decade more advanced that has relative-to-Kun fodder-tier Sadow being far more powerful than 47BBY Plagueis, prior to Sadow's six centuries of stasis and power growth?

LadyKulvax wrote:So Maul fighting Jinn in a pure lightsaber duel, is proof that the Sith are back and deadlier than ever in terms of demonstrated Force power? There's a thousand characters with 'full power of the dark side' quotes. Kun gets that before he even leaves Yavin, I suppose that pre-Cinnagar Kun is = TPM Maul, then. Right? The end of the quote is quite obviously the underlying evidence for this claim, his displayed skills against Qui-Gon Jinn.

It's not solely referring to Maul compared to Jinn, just that Maul is better than all previous sith.

If we're using quotes, shall I bring up the quote over a  decade more advanced that has relative-to-Kun fodder-tier Sadow being far more powerful than 47BBY Plagueis, prior to Sadow's six centuries of stasis and power growth?

That's fine, TPM Maul has a quote placing him > TPM plagueis and 2nd to Sheev.

Plo Koon>>>>Failiar Kun.

iamthatguy wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:So Maul fighting Jinn in a pure lightsaber duel, is proof that the Sith are back and deadlier than ever in terms of demonstrated Force power? There's a thousand characters with 'full power of the dark side' quotes. Kun gets that before he even leaves Yavin, I suppose that pre-Cinnagar Kun is = TPM Maul, then. Right? The end of the quote is quite obviously the underlying evidence for this claim, his displayed skills against Qui-Gon Jinn.

It's not solely referring to Maul compared to Jinn, just that Maul is better than all previous sith.

For the love of Tom Baker, the quote comes on a page about that scene in TPM. Because that's what it is. A flap book about scenes from the movie for children. The quote may well indeed refer to all previous Sith. But given:

1.The quote is from DK.
2.The quote is probably IU, given the rest of the book.
3.It's reliant on the idea that being on Jinn's level is proof in and of itself. Which gets problematic later on.

iamthatguy wrote:

If we're using quotes, shall I bring up the quote over a  decade more advanced that has relative-to-Kun fodder-tier Sadow being far more powerful than 47BBY Plagueis, prior to Sadow's six centuries of stasis and power growth?

That's fine, TPM Maul has a quote placing him > TPM plagueis and 2nd to Sheev.

Plagueis has both quotes and a demonstration in an event, far more up-to-date, literally equating him to the Sheev that Maul is compared to. Try again.

iamthatguy wrote:Plo Koon>>>>Failiar Kun.

I haven't seen trolling this bad since LeGenD tried it.

Kun stomps, come back with an argument that's actually worth my time.

For the love of Tom Baker, the quote comes on a page about that scene in TPM. Because that's what it is. A flap book about scenes from the movie for children. The quote may well indeed refer to all previous Sith. But given:

1.The quote is from DK.
2.The quote is probably IU, given the rest of the book.
3.It's reliant on the idea that being on Jinn's level is proof in and of itself. Which gets problematic later on.

The quote is clearly OOU.

Then Jinn scales above Kun too    

Plagueis has both quotes and a demonstration in an event, far more up-to-date, literally equating him to the Sheev that Maul is compared to. Try again.

TPM Plagueis does, who is far more powerful than 47 bby Plagueis.  

I haven't seen trolling this bad since LeGenD tried it.

Kun stomps, come back with an argument that's actually worth my time.

Come back when Kun doesn't scale below TPM Maul, or better yet, TPM Jinn.

iamthatguy wrote:

For the love of Tom Baker, the quote comes on a page about that scene in TPM. Because that's what it is. A flap book about scenes from the movie for children. The quote may well indeed refer to all previous Sith. But given:

1.The quote is from DK.
2.The quote is probably IU, given the rest of the book.
3.It's reliant on the idea that being on Jinn's level is proof in and of itself. Which gets problematic later on.

The quote is clearly OOU.

Prove it.

iamthatguy wrote:Then Jinn scales above Kun too    

1.Given Dooku's ability to throw around Derriphan-class starships on Korriban is portrayed as beyond what pre-AOTC Obi-Wan is capable of. Then Yavin!Kun's ability to lift one out of a temple, without even flexing his full strength, is a demonstration that he's >>> Jinn.

2.Given Dxun! Kun is able to cut through a multi-feet thick wall of beskar as easily as 4ABY Luke Skywalker can cut through Lumiya's beskar whip, Kun's demonstrated greater augmentation than Maul or Jinn ever did given Luke's scaling over Ben Kenobi.

iamthatguy wrote:

Plagueis has both quotes and a demonstration in an event, far more up-to-date, literally equating him to the Sheev that Maul is compared to. Try again.

TPM Plagueis does,

Concession accepted.

iamthatguy wrote:who is far more powerful than 47 bby Plagueis.  

Good job Sadow before 600 years of power growth, is too. Also, just to double down, it's a good job that super amped Sadow is still < Ambrian sorceress, who is < the Sith spirits of Ambria, who are << Thon, who is both < Vodo and Odan, as well as < Ulic Qel-Droma. The scaling here is honestly endless. And that's before Kun even gets his ritual stuff.

Kun stomps, thanks for playing.

Prove it.

Read.

1.Given Dooku's ability to throw around Derriphan-class starships on Korriban is portrayed as beyond what pre-AOTC Obi-Wan is capable of. Then Yavin!Kun's ability to lift one out of a temple, without even flexing his full strength, is a demonstration that he's >>> Jinn.  

This scaling relies on pre-AOTC Kenobi somehow being above Jinn, which is canonically false since Jinn is confirmed > ROTS Fisto who's AOTC incarnation near stomped Kenobi.

2.Given Dxun! Kun is able to cut through a multi-feet thick wall of beskar as easily as 4ABY Luke Skywalker can cut through Lumiya's beskar whip, Kun's demonstrated greater augmentation than Maul or Jinn ever did given Luke's scaling over Ben Kenobi.

So Kun can perform TPM Kenobi level feats?? You're getting there

Concession accepted.

iamthatguy wrote:who is far more powerful than 47 bby Plagueis.  

Good job Sadow before 600 years of power growth, is too. Also, just to double down, it's a good job that super amped Sadow is still < Ambrian sorceress, who is < the Sith spirits of Ambria, who are << Thon, who is both < Vodo and Odan, as well as < Ulic Qel-Droma. The scaling here is honestly endless. And that's before Kun even gets his ritual stuff.

Kun stomps, thanks for playing.

Wow, I guess it's a good thing Maul has the quote that scales him above Kun then.

iamthatguy wrote:

Prove it.

Read.  

I have, it's far from definitively OOU.

iamthatguy wrote:

1.Given Dooku's ability to throw around Derriphan-class starships on Korriban is portrayed as beyond what pre-AOTC Obi-Wan is capable of. Then Yavin!Kun's ability to lift one out of a temple, without even flexing his full strength, is a demonstration that he's >>> Jinn.  

This scaling relies on pre-AOTC Kenobi somehow being above Jinn, which is canonically false since Jinn is confirmed > ROTS Fisto who's AOTC incarnation near stomped Kenobi.

Even if he was, that doesn't help you given pre-AOTC Kenobi stomps Maul directly given scaling over himself when he beat Maul in TPM, who beat Jinn literally just beforehand. Which just means Fisto's abilities aren't being accurately compared even if your quote is right.

You can concede now.

iamthatguy wrote:

2.Given Dxun! Kun is able to cut through a multi-feet thick wall of beskar as easily as 4ABY Luke Skywalker can cut through Lumiya's beskar whip, Kun's demonstrated greater augmentation than Maul or Jinn ever did given Luke's scaling over Ben Kenobi.

So Kun can perform TPM Kenobi level feats?? You're getting there    

TPM Kenobi doesn't even start to touch the Luke that beat Lumiya given Ben Kenobi >>>>.

iamthatguy wrote:

Concession accepted.

Pretty accurate measure of your argument so far.

iamthatguy wrote:

iamthatguy wrote:who is far more powerful than 47 bby Plagueis.  

Good job Sadow before 600 years of power growth, is too. Also, just to double down, it's a good job that super amped Sadow is still < Ambrian sorceress, who is < the Sith spirits of Ambria, who are << Thon, who is both < Vodo and Odan, as well as < Ulic Qel-Droma. The scaling here is honestly endless. And that's before Kun even gets his ritual stuff.

Kun stomps, thanks for playing.

Wow, I guess it's a good thing Maul has the quote that scales him above Kun then.

That Maul quote can't account for power, and it definitely can't account for something that it's unaware of given shedding limitations. Lol.

Your argument is getting worse with every reply. Please, continue.

I have, it's far from definitively OOU.

Read it slower. It couldn't be more obvious that it's OOU.

Even if he was, that doesn't help you given pre-AOTC Kenobi stomps Maul directly given scaling over himself when he beat Maul in TPM, who beat Jinn literally just beforehand. Which just means Fisto's abilities aren't being accurately compared even if your quote is right.

You can concede now.

Except TPM Maul is confirmed a tier 8 above Jinn's tier 7.

TPM Maul>Jinn>ROTS Fisto>AOTC Fisto>AOTC Kenobi

You may concede now

TPM Kenobi doesn't even start to touch the Luke that beat Lumiya given Ben Kenobi >>>>.

Your original argument referred to augmentation, and Luke simply cutting her whip.

Again, TPM Kenobi level.

Pretty accurate measure of your argument so far.

Accurate measure of Failiar Kun****

That Maul quote can't account for power, and it definitely can't account for something that it's unaware of given shedding limitations. Lol.

Your argument is getting worse with every reply. Please, continue.

It literally specifies force power though

The only source for Jinn being > Fisto is an email and holds no water.

iamthatguy wrote:Read.  

You're not one to talk about reading 

You're not one to talk about reading 

iamthatguy wrote:

I have, it's far from definitively OOU.

Read it slower.  It couldn't be more obvious that it's OOU.

No, your blatant bias towards it being OOU to support your era isn't at all important here.

iamthatguy wrote:

Even if he was, that doesn't help you given pre-AOTC Kenobi stomps Maul directly given scaling over himself when he beat Maul in TPM, who beat Jinn literally just beforehand. Which just means Fisto's abilities aren't being accurately compared even if your quote is right.

You can concede now.

Except TPM Maul is confirmed a tier 8 above Jinn's tier 7.

TPM Maul>Jinn>ROTS Fisto>AOTC Fisto>AOTC Kenobi

You may concede now  

None of that matters, numbskull. Jedi Quest Dooku's feat > Jedi Quest Kenobi >>> TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul > TPM Jinn.

Your email is absolutely unimportant here. You've lost.

iamthatguy wrote:

TPM Kenobi doesn't even start to touch the Luke that beat Lumiya given Ben Kenobi >>>>.

Your original argument referred to augmentation, and Luke simply cutting her whip.

Again, TPM Kenobi level.

TPM Kenobi doesn't have 4ABY Luke's augmentation levels, considering Luke at this point is far stronger than the ESB incarnation of Yoda given a G-canon statement, who is above Ben Kenobi as of ANH who is far more powerful at this point than any time before.

iamthatguy wrote:

Pretty accurate measure of your argument so far.

Accurate measure of Failiar Kun****

Given how laughably bad your claims have been, as I've been debunking them bit by bit with each response, the only failure here is you.

iamthatguy wrote:

That Maul quote can't account for power, and it definitely can't account for something that it's unaware of given shedding limitations. Lol.

Your argument is getting worse with every reply. Please, continue.

It literally specifies force power though

Holy shit, you can't read. I literally explained why full power of the dark side doesn't matter and isn't the evidence the claim is being based on.

TPM Maul is another one of those dudes who only got a ranking in emails, same with Jinn

No, your blatant bias towards it being OOU to support your era isn't at all important here.

My era?  

I prefer Legacy and TOR over RoE.

None of that matters, numbskull. Jedi Quest Dooku's feat > Jedi Quest Kenobi >>> TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul > TPM Jinn.

Your email is absolutely unimportant here. You've lost.

Even without the email, which cannot be dismissed, TPM Maul ragdolled TCW Kenobi in The Sith Hunters.

TPM Kenobi doesn't have 4ABY Luke's augmentation levels, considering Luke at this point is far stronger than the ESB incarnation of Yoda given a G-canon statement, who is above Ben Kenobi as of ANH who is far more powerful at this point than any time before.

Ben Kenobi is sub ANH Vader, who is sub ROTJ Vader, who is sub TPM Kenobi per G-canon.  

Given how laughably bad your claims have been, as I've been debunking them bit by bit with each response, the only failure here is you.

Holy shit, you can't read. I literally explained why full power of the dark side doesn't matter and isn't the evidence the claim is being based on.

No no I read it, it was just not convincing at all.

iamthatguy wrote:

No, your blatant bias towards it being OOU to support your era isn't at all important here.

My era?  

I prefer Legacy and TOR over RoE.

Given you've literally done nothing but wank DE Luke. I call massive piles of steaming bullshit.

iamthatguy wrote:

None of that matters, numbskull. Jedi Quest Dooku's feat > Jedi Quest Kenobi >>> TPM Kenobi > TPM Maul > TPM Jinn.

Your email is absolutely unimportant here. You've lost.

Even without the email, which cannot be dismissed,

Nick Gillard only matters in so far as his capacity to relay the levels that Lucas himself established the characters as being on. So yes, they can.

iamthatguy wrote:TPM Maul ragdolled TCW Kenobi in The Sith Hunters.

That's not TPM Maul, that's a Maul who had incomparable levels of rage fuelling him for ten years, directed at Kenobi himself. Nor is a TK feat at all indicative of definitive superiority. TPM Maul also Force push'ed TPM Kenobi, and he was outright beaten by Kenobi in every manner regardless.

iamthatguy wrote:

TPM Kenobi doesn't have 4ABY Luke's augmentation levels, considering Luke at this point is far stronger than the ESB incarnation of Yoda given a G-canon statement, who is above Ben Kenobi as of ANH who is far more powerful at this point than any time before.

Ben Kenobi is sub ANH Vader, who is sub ROTJ Vader, who is sub TPM Kenobi per G-canon.  

Given your assertion that mere emails about the tiers are undismissable. Here is a quote from an LFL-licensed, published source, that has Ben two entire tiers above Vader in tiers specifically to do with Force power in ANH:

The Making of Empire Strikes Back wrote:The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

So which are you conceding here? That the emails are now invalid or that Vader gets fucking godstomped by Ben? Because:

Fightsaber wrote:During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.

Death Star wrote:He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

iamthatguy wrote:

Holy shit, you can't read. I literally explained why full power of the dark side doesn't matter and isn't the evidence the claim is being based on.

No no I read it, it was just not convincing at all.

I don't care whether you're convinced, I care about the fact you're blatantly wrong.

Given you've literally done nothing but wank DE Luke. I call massive piles of steaming bullshit.

Because Luke is my favorite character, why you hating on Luke  

Nick Gillard only matters in so far as his capacity to relay the levels that Lucas himself established the characters as being on. So yes, they can.

So Lucas must've established Maul and Dooku as tier 8s while Jinn is a tier 7.

That's not TPM Maul, that's a Maul who had incomparable levels of rage fuelling him for ten years, directed at Kenobi himself. Nor is a TK feat at all indicative of definitive superiority. TPM Maul also Force push'ed TPM Kenobi, and he was outright beaten by Kenobi in every manner regardless.

Maul's power was restored by Talzin, he regressed on Lotho Minor, not improved.

Also Maul beat TPM Kenobi lol.  Unless you're actually using the PIS shot as evidence.

Given your assertion that mere emails about the tiers are undismissable. Here is a quote from an LFL-licensed, published source, that has Ben two entire tiers above Vader in tiers specifically to do with Force power in ANH:

The Making of Empire Strikes Back wrote:The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

So which are you conceding here? That the emails are now invalid or that Vader gets fucking godstomped by Ben? Because:

Fightsaber wrote:During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.

Death Star wrote:He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

He didn't even seem sure himself, he said "Ben is probably stronger than Vader".  We actually can conclude that's false since we now know how force barriers work. There has to be a gargantuan gap for someone to be overpowered by using the force i.e. Yoda vs Ventress. Also, Ben Kenobi being on the same tier as Sheev is quite retarded.

There are also many more sources saying Vader was superior to Kenobi, so you're two are cancelled out by an overwhelming majority of quotes claiming otherwise. Which also fit with the idea that Vader is superior, but couldn't dominate him with the force.

I don't care whether you're convinced, I care about the fact you're blatantly wrong.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/20/30/38/24/dyixvz10.jpg

Unless you fix that formatting, we're done. That's not even readable.

LadyKulvax wrote:Unless you fix that formatting, we're done. That's not even readable.

Concession. Any other sith>>>>>>TPM Maul>Failiar Kun

It's not a concession when you've progressively backtracked on every single one of your empty claims.

Stop using a 14-year-old Ant meme.