Tulak Hord vs Naga Sadow

Round 1:Tulak Hord vs Naga Sadow

Round 2: Tulak Hord and Aloysius Kallig vs Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh

If Hord is made an Exile in SE then he's two thousand years of raw power growth beneath Sadow:

What is SE?

Supernatural Encounters, read Ant's Upcoming Legends Projects blog for more information.

Sadow

Sadow/Kressh

The Exiles were much stronger than the original Sith species. All that is said is that there was interbreeding and more powerful Sith began to emerge in time. It is unclear who is stronger than who all the way up to the era of Marka Ragnos when he is stated to be the strongest - lording over both Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh when alive.

Tenebrae is established to be second-to-none in times of Ragnos:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Tenebrae distanced himself from much of the POLITICS of the Empire and prioritized honing his abilities in the dark side instead - all by choice. He took command of the Empire after it suffered a crushing defeat in the Great Hyperspace War, purged as many as he could, and rebooted the Empire on Dromund Kaas. Naga Sadow resigned himself to Yavin 4 in the meantime.

Tulak Hord have all manner of hype to his name that Naga Sadow have and then some:



Sith acolytes spill blood and prove their strength in the mausoleums of history's most powerful and legendary Sith Lords. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

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The Valley of the Dark Lords is a long, winding canyon where the most powerful of Sith kings are entombed, allegedly dating back to King Adas, an ancient Sith ruler who helped his people colonize Sith Space. Each king and Dark Lord of the Sith created a vast crypt, following a Sith belief in a Force-powered immortal afterlife. - Star Wars: Force and Destiny Core Rulebook

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Lord of Hate, Master of the Gathering Darkness and Dark Lord of the Sith. These are but a few of the titles worn by the great Tulak Hord. His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful.

Among Hord's greatest triumphs were the battles of Yn and Chabosh. With an army of dark side warriors and his faithful Dashade assassin at his side, he annihilated the rebels who defied the expansion of the Sith Empire and went on to conquer the Dromund system--setting the stage for Dromund Kaas to eventually become capital of the Empire. Imperial historians believe the worlds conquered by Hord number in the hundreds, but any records from his bygone era were lost in the Great Hyperspace War. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Tulak Hord

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Centuries ago, Khem Val was the proud servant of Tulak Hord, one of the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith to ever live. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Character Profiles: Khem Val

Darth Traya's revelation:

"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

Corroborated by another source:

As Kallig rose to power, Tulak Hord – a mighty Sith Lord with legendary lightsaber skills- was waging war against the planets Yn and Chabosh. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Khem Val's revelation:

"The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky."





Tulak Hord is established to be a master of Sith Sorcery:

Lord of Hate, conqueror of the planets Yn and Chabosh, and master of Sith sorcery, Tulak Hord was buried within his tomb on Korriban along with his secret teachings. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos are talked about in the same breath:

Sith Lords such as Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos were entombed within, along with their powerful dark artifacts - protected by vicious traps and deadly guardians. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Tulak Hord is among the OUTLIERS of ancient Sith irrespective of when he lived much like Karness Muur. He is particularly renowned for his skills with a Lightsaber and a telekinetic powerhouse among others.

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Naga Sadow is renowned for his proficiency in Sith Sorcery and Sith Alchemy but what exactly he had to show when he fought Ludo Kressh?





He threw a brick at Ludo Kressh. Like seriously...

Sadow's spirit possessed a Jedi Padawan at a later stage and this Jedi was unable to defeat his Jedi Master even with borrowed powers:

"Possessed by the dark spirit of Naga Sadow, Gynt attacked his former master in broad daylight. The brutal battle between the two was staged with all of the Republic watching. Gynt's borrowed powers were formidable, but Master Ovair won the day." - Jedi Master Gnost-Dural

Sadow is evidently not a powerhouse in combat-applicable aspects of the Force. He is more of the trinkets-type much like Haazen.

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Tulak Hord MURDERS.

Hord should be a few thousand tiers above him thanks to having rituals Sadow can only dream of. Also > ancient Kallig ghost ragdolling other ghosts like Andru which are probably Sadow territory.

LadyKulvax wrote:Supernatural Encounters, read Ant's Upcoming Legends Projects blog for more information.

Thanks.

LadyKulvax wrote:If Hord is made an Exile in SE then he's two thousand years of raw power growth beneath Sadow:

Nothing you have mentioned here puts Naga Sadow above Tulak Hord especially when the passage talks about the interbreeding part for the Jedi Exiles that remained with the Sith on Korriban. Tulak Hord was not one of these exiles. He was one of the Sith conquerors that went back to Republic space for revenge and would not even be considered in the interbreeding statement, which was focused on the Sith that remained on Korriban. Even then, that statement is a general one and would not necessarily put Naga Sadow individually above Tulak Hord in power. It only puts the Interbreeding species, in general, above the Jedi Exiles that remained on Korriban.

Nothing you just said makes sense. First of all, if Hord is actually an Exile then this means the Ajunta Pall quotes apply to him. Which caps him then and there as a Shadow Hand.

The interbreeding for two thousand years directly states it was done to, among other things, sharpen raw power in the Force across the board. This is every generation specifically breeding to make the next one more powerful, all the way until the Sith Empire is 'ready'. Unsurprisingly this comes with what is called, quite literally, the Golden Age of the Sith. Led by the strongest Sith thus far, Marka Ragnos. With Sadow and Kressh as his next closest. This quote is supported by a bunch of others all stating a similar thing, one I remember off the top of my head:

LadyKulvax wrote:
Nothing you just said makes sense. First of all, if Hord is actually an Exile then this means the Ajunta Pall quotes apply to him. Which caps him then and there as a Shadow Hand.

The interbreeding for two thousand years directly states it was done to, among other things, sharpen raw power in the Force across the board. This is every generation specifically breeding to make the next one more powerful, all the way until the Sith Empire is 'ready'. Unsurprisingly this comes with what is called, quite literally, the Golden Age of the Sith. Led by the strongest Sith thus far, Marka Ragnos. With Sadow and Kressh as his next closest. This quote is supported by a bunch of others all stating a similar thing, one I remember off the top of my head:

Did you literally not read a single thing I have said or something?

It is really very simple. Tulak Hord did not stay on Korriban and was one of the people that went back to Republic space to have revenge against the Jedi. This is literally stated in the passage itself where it mentions that some did not stay on Korriban. The Dark Jedi that stayed on Korriban (not Tulak Hord) are the ones that interbreed with the Sith and whom are being spoken about when it mentions sharpening raw power in the Force. The general statement of raw power superiority of the Interbreed species does not apply to the Dark Jedi that left Korriban and went to war with the Republic, who are very likely to have become a lot stronger over the course of the war, and would not show superiority over them. In addition, the statement is just a general statement about the Interbreed species being generally superior to the Dark Jedi that stayed on Korriban and would still not put Sadow individually over Hord. You can’t use a general statement comparing 2 different species and then apply it to show definite superiority of 2 specific characters. As I have mentioned multiple times now, the quote does not even encompass Hord. Only the ones that stayed on Korriban.

First of all, if Hord is actually an Exile then this means the Ajunta Pall quotes apply to him. Which caps him then and there as a Shadow Hand.

No, it does not. Again, Ajunta Pall remains on Korriban while Hord does not. It is very likely that Hord became a lot more powerful over the course of the Republic war compared to his Korriban version. He literally drains hundreds of Jedi during some of his conquests and rituals, which alone makes him a lot more powerful than previous Korriban versions. This is just another reason why your previous argument does not work, which only talks about Dark Jedi that remained on Korriban as I have mentioned multiple times to you now.

I absolutely understand what you're attempting to claim.

First of all, the dark Jedi who left to go back only left long after Pall had taken over the Sith culture as their new Sith'ari. So yes, Hord like the rest of them would've been beneath Pall from the start.

Your argument amounts to claiming that Tulak Hord growing through the renewed war with the Republic amounts to him totally negating the fact that Sadow does scale from the rest of Hord's contemporaries, massively. Like twice as much as Sidious scales from Bane. Meaning your argument for Hord is based on an utterly unquantifiable amount of power gained from the thousand  Jedi he slew.

So unless you can explain how much power Hord's ritual drain gives him, then Sadow's far more concrete stance still stands as the vastly safer bet.

LadyKulvax wrote:
First of all, the dark Jedi who left to go back only left long after Pall had taken over the Sith culture as their new Sith'ari. So yes, Hord like the rest of them would've been beneath Pall from the start.

Okay… ? The whole point is that Hord is no longer restricted to be below Pall once he leaves for the Republic wars where he very likely became a lot more powerful.

Your argument amounts to claiming that Tulak Hord growing through the renewed war with the Republic amounts to him totally negating the fact that Sadow does scale from the rest of Hord's contemporaries, massively. Like twice as much as Sidious scales from Bane. Meaning your argument for Hord is based on an utterly unquantifiable amount of power gained from the thousand  Jedi he slew.

So unless you can explain how much power Hord's ritual drain gives him, then Sadow's far more concrete stance still stands as the vastly safer bet.

And neither is Naga Sadow’s scaling from interbreeding quantifiable either. All we know is that interbreeding for 2 thousand years enhanced raw Force power but we cannot quantify by how much. At the same time, we already know Hord certainly became a lot more powerful during his Republic conquests. Rituals and draining others, especially in large amounts, can make you vastly more powerful as we have seen many times in the lore.

We already know that Hord is the most dangerous lightsaber combatant from the ancients. Do you really think he would have such hype and title about himself if he was inferior to some interbreed species? We already know that lightsaber combat is directly enhanced by power in the force. If Hord was inferior to some interbreed species (we aren’t even talking about higher tiers like Ragnos or Kun), then I really doubt he would be considered the most dangerous lightsaber combatant of the ancients.

The whole point here is that your Sadow > Tulak argument is certainly not a definitive one and is highly debatable. We have to wait and see where SE takes Tulak and what happens there to reach a more accurate placement rather than very vague scalings.

I'd say Hord

Because I'm back in work and my time is limited, I'll shorten this to:

The Sith for two thousand years, specifically interbred to create more powerful Force users with each generation. Creating a Banite kind of scaling. But twice as much. There's a point at which the scaling, like the Bane one. Has to completely begin to put them at magnitudes difference.

When you add on Ragnos's quotes which cap Hord, and more, it becomes obvious that there's an entirely other level.

Now I can sympathise with using Hord's ritual to wank him, I think it's an ample measure by which to use Nox. But it has to hold true that Hord's ritual's main point was immortality. A lot of that power is going to immortality, as we see with Vitiate, Kun, etc. So it isn't purely about power.