SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

HellfireUnit wrote:Make it Jedi Dooku and Revan still gets flattened

Rei wrote:ROTS Tyranus. 

SOR Revan isn't as impressive as some make him to be. He was significantly amped during the strike team events while some on the strike team were severely hindered. Only two on the strike team would benefit from the planet amp. It is still an impressive feat nonetheless but it is over-blown out of proportion a lot of the times.

DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Rei: Don't forget about Satele Shan's battle meditation amp, which "greatly increased" the team's powers and put them in a state of "battle clarity."

When a powerful Force-user wielded this ability, it could imbue the Jedi's allies with the will to win even against impossible odds. Alternatively, a Jedi could direct the battle meditation toward his or her enemies, causing them to attack one another, surrender, or run away.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This sweeping Force power, which infuses allies with hope while simultaneously strangling enemy morale, has in the past reversed whole wars.....

- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Like all abilities strongly connected to the Force, there were dangers inherent in using battle meditation: In some cases, it could cause influenced enemies to become desperate and reckless.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Rei wrote:ROTS Tyranus. 

SOR Revan isn't as impressive as some make him to be. He was significantly amped during the strike team events while some on the strike team were severely hindered. Only two on the strike team would benefit from the planet amp. It is still an impressive feat nonetheless but it is over-blown out of proportion a lot of the times.

Battle meditation works by enhancing the will of allies while strangling the enemy's morale/will.

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. 

Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:

Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken

Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:

Although his talent was not strong enough to single-handedly alter the outcome of a large-scale conflict, in close quarters Worror could draw upon the Force to give strength to the bodies, minds, and spirits of those around him, enhancing the skills and abilities of his allies.

Dar'nala (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Threat of Peace) wrote:[size=34]"[/size]She does have the gift, Master Zym, just like Bastila did. I'm sure of it."

Now, while it is true that Satele's Battle Meditation would amp the team, they were still fighting on a very powerful dark side nexus. Only Marr and Lana would be the ones benefitting from the nexus during the fight while the rest would be significantly hindered by it. 

This raises the question of which amp (Nexus or BM) had the bigger impact on the users hindered by the nexus and ,while the BM did amp the users, that does not mean that the users were overall more powerful than their base levels (except Marr and Lana) if the Nexus had a greater impact than the Battle Meditation

Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:

Bane didn't know if the legend was true, but even if it was, it merely proved the superiority of the dark side and its inevitable conquest of the light. For though the followers of Ashla had supposedly defeated the followers of Boga, the dark side had prevailed in the end. Tython, revered by many as the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself, was now a bastion of dark side power, and the location of Bella Darzu's hidden fortress.

In SOR Revan's case, his whole existence is by sheer will resulting from his hatred and anger towards the Emperor. This makes it highly questionable to the extent that Satele's Battle Meditation had any notable impact on hindering SOR Revan who has incredible will power, which is even noted in previous incarnations such as Revan Reborn in the Novel.

Even further, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes how using Battle Meditation has its own dangers and it could backfire on the user
...
Yet Revan was already reckless, desperate and full of anger in his SOR incarnation to kill the Emperor. 

These points put into question whether Satele's Battle Meditation had any significant negative impact on SOR Revan leading us to the first premise [1].

[1] Satele's Battle Meditation hindering SOR Revan is highly questionable

To conclude, a significantly amped Revan is fighting 2-3 non-force sensitives, Satele (Who was not even involved in most of the fight bar her BM) and the Hero of Tython whom are all significantly hindered by the nexus while fighting amped Marr and Lana. Add on that the BM impacting Revan to a notable extent is highly questionable and no concrete evidence of Satele's BM > Nexus, and the feat is not as impressive as some make it out to be, in my opinion.

BreakofDawn wrote:Worth noting that Satele's BM was disrupted numerous times throughout the fight and she herself was a Light Sider trying to use it on an incredibly powerful DS nexus, so even the extent to which she could draw upon her BM is arguable.

*Shrug* Just worth remembering.

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Worth noting that Satele's BM was disrupted numerous times throughout the fight and she herself was a Light Sider trying to use it on an incredibly powerful DS nexus, so even the extent to which she could draw upon her BM is arguable.

*Shrug* Just worth remembering.

I refer you to the Worror example I cited in my previous post. Despite being on a "bastion of dark side power", mediocre BM user Worror was able to provide significant amps to those around him. I imagine whatever impact the nexus is having on Satele's BM isn't stopping it from still providing a massive benefit to the strike team.

KingofBlades wrote:It does this yes, however BM is more than a simple morale booster. Look at the effect of the Jedi Worror's Battle meditation on Farfalla:


Worror's Battle Meditation filled Farfalla with great power, increasing his speed and strength. When the connection to Worror's BM breaks, Johun's "strength and energy plummets" Obviously, there's more going on here than the equivalent of a pep talk. 

Those under the effect of Worror's Battle Meditation find their powers significantly magnified

So if Worror, someone who is by all accounts mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, is capable of magnifying the abilities of those around him so much that the absence of said BM causes the energy and strength of those affected to "plummet", imagine the unfathomable degree to which a true master of the art could amp their allies. 

Satele Shan, having inherited the same prodigious talent as her ancestor Bastila Shan, one of the greatest practitioners of Battle Meditation in history, is one such master:

I refer you back to the example of Worror's Battle Meditation. The battle in which he uses it takes place on the planet Tython, which by the time of the Darth Bane Trilogy is a powerful dark side nexus:

Despite being on a powerful Dark Side nexus, Worror's Battle Meditation seems to provide those affected a net benefit, as Farfalla remarks that "He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel", indicating that in spite of the nexus, was still operating at a level above his base. So if mediocre BM user's impact is still a significant net positive even on nexuses described as a bastion of dark side power,

I have no issue believing a BM prodigy like Satele is capable of providing a massive net positive impact to the strike team, even on a darkside nexus like Yavin IV.

I've never seen anyone ever try to say Revan was hindered by Satele's Battle Meditation, which includes the post you're responding to. Ant never claimed Revan was hindered by the BM, so I have no idea why you went on this bizarre tangent.

Why is Revan "significantly amped". He's an individual who calls on both sides of the force and explicitly calls on both sides of the force against the strike team. It's very plausible Revan is operating at a level similar to his base, since his connection to the light and dark sides of the force would be simultaneously hindered and amped respectively. Even if you want to say Revan is experiencing some net positive, it's certainly nowhere near clear enough for you to definitively assert said amp is "significant". 

So a Revan who is likely operating at a level similar to his base is facing off against a Hero of Tython, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, and Theron Shan who are all likely monstrously amped by Satele's BM, all the while being attacked by aerial strikes...and winning.

So yes, Reva's feat is ridiculously absurd, and your attempts to lessen it by setting up and then attacking strawmans shows the extent people are willing to go to undermine Revan's greatness.

That is not necessarily true. The quotes you provided state that the Force flowed ‘with greater power’ but does not state the extent of such magnification, but merely that the power increased. The second quote states that “Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him,” which is stating that the strength and energy plummeted to the point that Johun felt exhausted and overwhelmed. It is not talking about how much the Power in the Force plummeted, merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted.

Worror not being able to “single-handedly alter the outcome of a large-scale conflict” does not mean that he is a mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, it simply means that he is not as talented as some of the best BM practitioners in the mythos. That does not mean that he is just an average, especially in close quarters.

The quote you provided is only stating that Satele has the “gift” that Bastila did denoting that Satele has the ability of Battle Meditation. It does not state that she was as masterful or as good as Bastila. Simply coming from the bloodline does not mean that she will be as talented or inherit Bastila’s mastery or talent. Even more so, I do not think we have ever seen Satele used Battle Meditation to the extent of altering large-scale conflicts like Bastila did. Yet, she has been on the battlefield countless times and her Battle Meditation would have been very useful in many conflicts had she had the ability to alter large-scale conflicts like Bastila. Bastila was constantly used by the council for her Battle Meditation for large conflicts while Satele never (as to my knowledge). You are merely speculating that Satele is as talented as Bastila simply because they are from the same bloodline and have the “gift” despite no evidence supporting that notion and if there is then by all means provide it. But I have a hunch that you would have already done so, had there been evidence to support it.

That was not specifically to what Ant wrote. I have seen some people in the past make that claim and wrote that as a mere possibility of that others might argue with. My response was not specifically to what Ant said, rather mere possibilities of what some might say/argue and since you have not protested against it, I take it that you agree with what I said. My response was not specific to anyone, rather points to consider when discussing this fight

Yavin IV is considered to be one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses. Tython simply being a ‘bastion of dark side power’ is not really comparable.

Not to be rude, but the idea that SOR Revan calls on both sides of the Force is pure BS. His whole existence is based on pure anger, hatred and vengeance towards the Emperor which are all Dark Side attributes and fuel the Dark Side of the Force and is contradictory to the Light Side of the Force. Even more so, the fact that Light Side Revan’s spirit is even a thing makes it very obvious that SOR Revan is the dark, hateful side of Revan while the spirit is the Light Side part of Revan. The spirit literally says that it became ‘one with the Force’ which is a direct Light Side attribute. Even worse, SOR Revan being hateful, angry and seeking revenge will directly fuel his connection to the Dark Side of the Force and trying to argue that Revan would be at his base level because his Dark and Light side cancel out is complete BS when SOR Revan would only be drawing on the Dark Side of the Force as he is fueled by hate and anger, and that is assuming he can even draw on the Light. Even if you were to say that SOR Revan is at base level because of Light/Dark side, a being full of anger and hatred will not be drawing on the light side of the force and his Dark Side connection will be amped by such Nexus and this is the side of the Force that a person full of hate will draw upon. Light Side Revan is literally a separate entity to SOR. So, yes, SOR Revan was definitely significantly amped by the nexus which would boost his Dark Side which SOR Revan would very obviously be calling upon.

SOR Revan is definitely not operating at his base. He is literally a being of hatred and anger making it very clear that he is completely fueled by the Dark Side of the Force which is made even more clear by the fact that Revan’s light side spirit is a separate entity to SOR, which would definitely be amped by the nexus and amped significantly above base level. You even go further and claim that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite bashing me earlier on about how I asserted that Revan’s amp was definitely significant. Double standards much?

You draw us to an example of Tython which is not comparable to Yavin IV and then blindly speculate that Satele is as masterful and talented as Bastila in BM based on nothing other than bloodline and having the “gift”. There is not a single instance of Satele using BM to the extent of influencing large-scale conflicts and yet there is plenty for Bastila. So, the assertion that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite being on such a powerful nexus is baseless with no evidence to back it up

Revan’s feat is not ridiculously absurd when he was significantly amped by the nexus fighting three non-force sensitives, 2 arguably weakened Jedi (1 of whom was not even fighting most of the time) and 2 amped Sith. You are going to have to prove that Satele’s BM, at the bare minimum, placed the users at their base levels after the Nexus’s impact. And as I said earlier, the feat is still an impressive feat but taken out of proportion by some people like claiming it’s a ridiculously absurd one when in reality the feat is circumstantial and not really clear on the extent of Satele’s BM relative to the Nexus. It being a ridiculously absurd feat is not definitive and questionable and that is the point I am making.