Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader

Holy fuck, you're actually braindead. I'll offer up a full reply later, but you have no right to tell me that my argument "has no legs" when you write shite like this:

Looks like someone is deeply triggered, it ain't my fault the majority disagrees with you bro. You completely failed to understand my point.
Overpowering someone isn't the be all end all of winning, that's what I meant.

At least I'm not mentally retarded.

And I suppose getting triggered over fictional characters isn't mentally retarded?

I couldn't give less of a shit about the characters. I care about your attitude: saying that my argument has no legs while making some of the most God awful points I've ever seen.

AA3 wrote:I couldn't give less of a shit about the characters. I care about your attitude: saying that my argument has no legs while making some of the most God awful points I've ever seen.

If you think I was being condescending with my post then you are completely mistaken. You seem like the type of person to take offence when someone criticises you

@Mysteryman06

If you think I was being condescending with my post then you are completely mistaken.

Nah, I don't think you were being condescending. I know you were being condescending.

You seem like the type of person to take offence when someone criticises you

I don't take offense to criticism; I took offense to unneeded condescending remarks from someone who then proceeded to make way worse points in their own post.

Let's not get high school Glee over whether SK sucks or semi-sucks.

@AA3 Funny when HellfireUnit called you "a mega retard" for your arguments you stayed silent. But yeh I suppose I was being a dick to you eventhough I never once attacked you in my post

This is your first lesson Mysterman06. Whatever AA3/HP Legends say, know that the opposite is true and only reply with "OK."

AA3 wrote:Based on what?

He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just.

seem to be on equal footing here

but a stalemate seemed unavoidable.

"stalemate"

lades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time.

Vader being faster

Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Starkiller needs a distraction to break Vaders defenses

Now i dont think Vader >>>> Starkiller or anything like that, but they are on a similar level at this time, Vader grows far more powerful up until ROTJ So ROTJ Vader would be more powerful than SK

@Mysteryman06

Funny when HellfireUnit called you "a mega retard" for your arguments you stayed silent.

Yes, because I've been on this forum with HU for two years and know him well enough by now to tell that he's trolling.

But yeh I suppose I was being a dick to you eventhough I never once attacked you in my post

You're not quite on the level of being a dick, but you were condescending enough - in spite of your bad arguments - that I felt it prudent to give you a verbal smackdown. Nothing personal.

@Vaelias

All of the instances you posted were when SK was exhausted, so, no, they don't indicate parity. Oh, and btw:

Starkiller needs a distraction to break Vaders defenses

SK literally does breach Vader's defenses with Lightning in that passage you posted... using no distraction. Yes, the follow up is the result of Vader being "betrayed by his extensive prosthetics", but he landed a perfectly legitimate mid-combat hit prior - indicating he can breach the Dark Lord's defenses.

@AA3 Ok thank you.

If he is Dooku level as you claim him to be, he would still lose to ROTJ Vader but in a better fight.

@AA3

All of the instances you posted were when SK was exhausted, so, no, they don't indicate parity

Im pretty sure this "he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" kinda makes up for that lol,

Regardless even if it didn't (which it most definitely does) Vader would still be rough equals with an exhausted Starkiller pre ANH, and I doubt that that exhaustion power loss would equate to Vader's massive growth up until ROTJ so ROTJ Vader would still be > SK

@Vaelias

Im pretty sure this "he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" kinda makes up for that lol,

As I've covered in the past, Starkiller's rage likely hindered him further against Vader. While rage is an amplifier, generally speaking, it can also be a hindrance when felt in combination with fear and guilt - as we see with examples like Anakin on the Invisible Hand who can barely fight when his emotions are out of control - which is confirmed by HK-47 in KOTOR 2:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

If you read the novelization, you'll find that SK was exhibiting all the underlined emotions, meaning he was likely hindered in that instance:

Guilt: "Horror and self-reproach filled his mind. He hadn't seen her crawling for the lightsaber; he hadn't sensed her desperate plan until the very last moment-and it was his alarm that had alerted Vader, he was sure of it."

Fear: "Instead, he had thought only of saving Juno-a plan, he feared, that might always have been doomed to failure . . . He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair."

Even setting that aside, you haven't proven that the rage would compensate for his exhaustion. Furthermore, Starkiller isn't even angry in basically every instance you've posted, so this variable is largely irrelevant to the duel:

In The Cloning Tower: "Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love."

The roof of the spire: "Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. [...] No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now."

...as shown above, Starkiller isn't angry in their first fight in The Cloning Tower, and curbs his anger once he realises Vader's plan on the roof of the spire. This is further demonstrated by him asking Vader to join him partway through their extensive duel - not something someone who was rage amped would do:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

The only time Starkiller is ever angry is in that singular instance where he strikes out at Vader that you cited:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just.

This creates quite the conundrum for you, though, because it begs the question as to how a supposedly stupendously amped Starkiller - who you claim is equal to Vader - and normal Starkiller - who fights on par with Vader - are on the same level. Maybe the solution is just that Starkiller isn't amped?

--- --- ---

And, as for some other points:

Regardless even if it didn't (which it most definitely does) Vader would still be rough equals with an exhausted Starkiller pre ANH, and I doubt that that exhaustion power loss would equate to Vader's massive growth up until ROTJ so ROTJ Vader would still be > SK

Why do you doubt that idea?

Vader being faster

The quote you posted does not indicate Vader is faster given that it follows up by attributing his impenetrable defenses to learning from his last fight - a knowledge thing, not a speed thing. Moreover, the same is true in reverse: Vader cannot breach Starkiller's defenses either, so clearly it does not necessitate superiority, else we end up with Vader > Starkiller > Vader in speed.

--- --- ---

Also, as a final point, refer to the indicators I posted as to why non-exhausted Starkiller is far above Vader.

i was under the impression vader was testing SK during that fight, no? isnt that one of the things hinted when talking about TFU 3?

Vader handily.

BreakofDawn wrote:Vader handily.

i wouldnt say that, but he did grow like, in ANH, then a good deal after ANH and into ESB, and iirc, he had another growth during ESB, then he had another big one between ESB and ROTJ.

@AA3

As I've covered in the past, Starkiller's rage likely hindered him further against Vader. While rage is an amplifier, generally speaking, it can also be a hindrance when felt in combination with fear and guilt - as we see with examples like Anakin on the Invisible Hand who can barely fight when his emotions are out of control - which is confirmed by HK-47 in KOTOR 2:

Ok but in this instance that is definitely not what is happening, hence the "he struck out" its almost certain that "using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" and "striking out" using that, is not an indication him being weakened by grief at all, rather the complete opposite, the contex describes he is clearly using his strength, rage and grief. its also important to note the word Strength being used here, no where would someone's strength hinder them, the fact that rage and grief are mentioned along side strength coupled with "struck out" is a clear indication that these are bolstering his base ability.

also worth noting that rage grief and sorrow clearly didn't hinder Vader during Operation Knightfall

you haven't proven that the rage would compensate for his exhaustion

you haven't proven why he is so terribly exhausted, throughout the whole duel, or why this would be such a hinderance after striking out with what's implied to be everything he has basically.

...as shown above, Starkiller isn't angry in their first fight in The Cloning Tower

yes but then he also notes "The only emotion he would give in to was love" which is still as strong as any, if not the strongest driving factor, we see this with Anakin

...as shown above, Starkiller isn't angry in their first fight in The Cloning Tower

but he is fueled by passion "passion stirring him to action." and passion gives one strength "through passion I gain strength"

TFUII wrote:Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual,

Vader appears to be casual on the cloning tower when Starkiller isn't fueled by his Strength Rage and Grief anyway

The only time Starkiller is ever angry is in that singular instance where he strikes out at Vader that you cited:

Why are we assuming he instantly calms down after that, seems a bit unrealistic to assume he just lets go of all those emotions immediately after his attack on Vader

This creates quite the conundrum for you, though, because it begs the question as to how a supposedly stupendously amped Starkiller - who you claim is equal to Vader - and normal Starkiller - who fights on par with Vader - are on the same level. Maybe the solution is just that Starkiller isn't amped?

When did I say Starkiler was amped lol let alone Stupendously amped? being amped and having your abilities bolstered by your emotions are two different things

Why do you doubt that idea?

Because its unrealistic to assume, so you are claiming that Starkiller's hinderance from being so stupendously 'exhausted' would be equal or exceed that of a massive 5 year power growth per multiple statements

-- Force And Destiny Core Rulebook wrote:As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.

-- Galactic Battlegrounds wrote:"My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger."

-The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Between Lord Vader and the Imperial Inquisitors (and a handful of independent Jedi Hunters), the dark side grew stronger and stronger.

the amount of power Vader gained between TFU and ROTJ would be more significant than the hinderance Starkiller experienced from exhaustion, The Darkside growing "Stronger and Stronger" in anyone would be far more significant lol

The quote you posted does not indicate Vader is faster given that it follows up by attributing his impenetrable defenses to learning from his last fight - a knowledge thing, not a speed thing.

Not really, Knowledge doesn't allow one to have Impenetrable defenses or allow one to meet a strike before it even appeared lol, Vader's just improved as a duelist since the last time

Moreover, the same is true in reverse: Vader cannot breach Starkiller's defenses either, so clearly it does not necessitate superiority, else we end up with Vader > Starkiller > Vader in speed.

TFUII wrote:Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. But the same was true in reverse.

That is not what the quote is saying "But the same was true in reverse" cant be refering to Starkiller's dueling ability, rather that he had also learned since and improved since the last time, seeing as Vader's lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time" that can not be also true in reverse , it can only be one or the other else Vader's blade would not be arriving a split second before Starkiller's because the same would be true in reverse and starkiller's blade would be arriving before Vader's, which doesn't make sense lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Vader handily.

i wouldnt say that, but he did grow like, in ANH, then a good deal after ANH and into ESB, and iirc, he had another growth during ESB, then he had another big one between ESB and ROTJ.

You're right. Vader solidly.

@Vaelias

Ok but in this instance that is definitely not what is happening, hence the "he struck out" its almost certain that "using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief" and "striking out" using that, is not an indication him being weakened by grief at all, rather the complete opposite, the contex describes he is clearly using his strength, rage and grief.

I'm not claiming it was the rage specifically that hindered him, but rather that it was it in combination with his fear and guilt that acted as a mental interference - factors not mentioned within that specific quote. Moreover, Starkiller can simultaneously use it while it acts as a hindrance. For example, TPM Kenobi used rage to fuel his assault against Maul, but it still clouded his vision/focus and left him vulnerable to counter-attack. Likewise, Starkiller used his anger to strike Vader out against Vader in TFU 1, yet he still noted that it "clouded his eyes when he most clearly needed to see".

its also important to note the word Strength being used here, no where would someone's strength hinder them,

Yes, but that's not the point I'm making. Recall the quote I posted from HK-47:

HK-47 wrote:Generally, this was done by broadcasting strong emotions while thinking about something else. It was a curious technique, but it seemed to be effective in blinding Jedi. Whether guilt, lust, fear - they act as mental interference, making finding the true intentions of the broadcasting meatbag difficult. Obviously, a Force Sensitive broadcasting such emotions puts themselves at risk of not using the Force "properly," since to use it seems to require an inner calm that most meatbags do not possess. As much as the Jedi could not use such a technique, the Sith Lords cannot use it for much the same reasons - such passions as guilt, lust, and fear are rarely strengths to the Sith code.

The issue is that it stops Force Users from using their strength "properly", not that it prevents them from drawing on it period.

the fact that rage and grief are mentioned along side strength coupled with "struck out" is a clear indication that these are bolstering his base ability.

Why? They're each distinct elements - meaning strength and rage aren't necessarily related - and the only constant is that he's using each, but, as clarified above, that doesn't necessarily mean they amped him.

also worth noting that rage grief and sorrow clearly didn't hinder Vader during Operation Knightfall

Are you reading what I'm writing? It's not just the rage, it's the rage + fear + guilt. Knightfall Vader is explicitly a being without fear, and one who places emotions into the fight, not his head, so they don't impede his fighting abilities. Meanwhile, Starkiller is in internal turmoil and dwelling on his failures. If you want an example akin to his, take a look at Mustafar where Vader's fear and rage blocked his ability to sense Obi-Wan.

you haven't proven why he is so terribly exhausted, throughout the whole duel, or why this would be such a hinderance after striking out with what's implied to be everything he has basically:

I specifically have clarified reasons, and asked you to address them... which you've failed to do:

(1) Starkiller "knows the measure" of Vader in TFU 2 based on their last duel, indicating Vader didn't grow much, and SK curbstomped him in TFU.
(2) Starkiller pulverised the army of Starkiller Clones with TK who could have "easily overpowered" Vader.
(3) Starkiller defended against Sheev's Lightning for 30 seconds which places him way above Vader - who's far less powerful than Jinn.

...each of these indicates Starkiller at his peak is far stronger than Vader. Moreover, why wouldn't he be massively hindered? He's more exhausted than he was at a point when his reserves were on the verge of running out from spending 13 days sustaining himself off Force Energy.

yes but then he also notes "The only emotion he would give in to was love" which is still as strong as any, if not the strongest driving factor, we see this with Anakin

[...]

but he is fueled by passion "passion stirring him to action." and passion gives one strength "through passion I gain strength"

Okay, cite me an example in the lore where love and passion provide an amp massive enough to compensate for the exhaustion SK was feeling. This isn't any different from Sith likewise using emotions in combat, and we clearly see that only carries them so far - for example, Baras exhausts himself to the point where he can't summon Force Lightning on Korriban. There's no unique, exhaustion-combating amp here, especially when these are just part of SK's standard combative state.

Vader appears to be casual on the cloning tower when Starkiller isn't fueled by his Strength Rage and Grief anyway

Emphasis on the "seemed" and "almost" in the quote. The first blow is always the easiest to intercept and block, hence why Vader appears so at ease. The follow up has Starkiller landing strikes on Vader's cape, Vader assessing Starkiller, them fighting evenly back and forth, and Starkiller winning the fight by creating an opening in Vader's guard and blasting him with Force Lightning - all indicators of a close-fought duel (which I doubt Vader would be in favour of if he could so easily take control of the engagement). It should be self-evident Vader was going all-out anyway, given that there's no discernible difference between their first and second fights - with Vader being stated to having gone all out in the latter.

Why are we assuming he instantly calms down after that, seems a bit unrealistic to assume he just lets go of all those emotions immediately after his attack on Vader

...because the text notes he does. He lets go of them due to realising Vader's plan, as I already quoted: "Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. [...] No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now."

...which is reinforced by this supposedly mega angry Starkiller asking Vader to join the Rebellion:

The Force Unleashed II Novelization wrote:"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

---

When did I say Starkiler was amped lol let alone Stupendously amped? being amped and having your abilities bolstered by your emotions are two different things

Bolstered and amped are synonymous??? I don't know about you, but when I say someone is amped, I mean their abilities are increased, and that's exactly what bolstered means. Care to clarify? And the amp is inferred as stupendous based on the idea that it would have to be to compensate for 'Killer's exhaustion.

Because its unrealistic to assume, so you are claiming that Starkiller's hinderance from being so stupendously 'exhausted' would be equal or exceed that of a massive 5 year power growth per multiple statements

the amount of power Vader gained between TFU and ROTJ would be more significant than the hinderance Starkiller experienced from exhaustion, The Darkside growing "Stronger and Stronger" in anyone would be far more significant lol

This is just a repeat of your original assertion. You claim that my argument is "unrealistic", but don't actually prove it - actually show that Vader's growth makes up for the exhaustion, not just that it's extensive.

Not really, Knowledge doesn't allow one to have Impenetrable defenses or allow one to meet a strike before it even appeared lol, Vader's just improved as a duelist since the last time

Knowledge alone doesn't no, but it's clearly the primary reason, as it's emphasised immediately afterward, by the text: "Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now."

Furthermore, we've seen Kenobi defend against Anakin - who's far faster than him - through knowing him inside out, so clearly it can make a big difference.

That is not what the quote is saying "But the same was true in reverse" cant be refering to Starkiller's dueling ability, rather that he had also learned since and improved since the last time,

I wasn't referencing the "the same was true in reverse" quote... The fact that my wording was similar to that of the passage doesn't make it a lift from it, unless I specifically use quotation marks.

seeing as Vader's lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time" that can not be also true in reverse , it can only be one or the other else Vader's blade would not be arriving a split second before Starkiller's because the same would be true in reverse and starkiller's blade would be arriving before Vader's, which doesn't make sense lol

It can be true in reverse, given that the text is solely referencing defense, as it literally clarifies prior - i.e. Vader's a second ahead of Starkiller's offensive when he needs to block.  This does not preclude Starkiller's Lightsaber from arriving a second before Vader's when Starkiller's the one on the defensive - i.e. Vader's offensive is a second behind of Starkiller's defensive when trying to attack. This is self-evidently true, as Vader likewise can't breach Starkiller's defenses. Again, neither can breach the other's defenses, so it's not indicative of superiority.

SK's exhaustion would be the Valley of the Jedi if it was an amp 

I'm not claiming it was the rage specifically that hindered him, but rather that it was it in combination with his fear and guilt that acted as a mental interference

Clearly not in this instance seeing as he Struck out, Using these emotions, definitely working in his favor lol that much is very clear in this instance lol

also seeing as he realized Vader would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. implies that he was not already destabilized by these emotions, else Vader's plan would be pointless

Why? They're each distinct elements

Because he is using them to strike out

Starkiller "knows the measure" of Vader in TFU 2 based on their last duel, indicating Vader didn't grow much, and SK curbstomped him in TFU.

That doesn't really imply much seeing as SK is confirmed to have grown between the two games yet Vader, "knew the measure of his former apprentice now"

Starkiller pulverised the army of Starkiller Clones with TK who could have "easily overpowered" Vader

Starkillers opinion, and demonstrably false given that the even the real Starkiller didn't easily overpower Vader, or do you think those random SK clones are > SK

Starkiller defended against Sheev's Lightning for 30 seconds which places him way above Vader

Feats are subjective as they are subject to exaggerated mediums, TFU is an exaggerated force medium, whos to say TFU Vader could do this, but anyway it may as well be confirmed that Sidious was not using his full power seeing as SK is specifically noted to be no match for Sidious and all of FULL POTENTIAL Starkiller's force power didn't even scratch Sidious


"manifests his true potential by unleashing the force

"All the power of the force within him" and it did nothing lol, I saw you say that SK was more powerful than Dooku, yet from Dooku's scaling I'm 100% sure his full potential death blast wouldn't do 0 to Sidious.

He's more exhausted than he was at a point when his reserves were on the verge of running out from spending 13 days sustaining himself off Force Energy.

Citation needed for him being exhausted from this, Yaddle endured centuries in this state, poor Starkiller had to last 13 days and was so terribly hindered afterwards, poor soul


Yaddle endures centuries

She even grows in the force in this state, to say Starkiller lost power and was exhausted after a mere 13 days is to say he is far weaker than Yaddle


He probably used this time to gather his energies and focus in on his force connection at the very least, either that or he is a little sub Yaddle bitch who cant handle a mere thirteen days

but I don't think he is that weak which is why I believe this helped him grow and bolstered him further

Okay, cite me an example in the lore where love and passion provide an amp massive enough to compensate for the exhaustion SK was feeling.

as for passion I already did, the Sith code literally reads "Through passion I gain Strength" and "through Strength I gain Power" so SKs passion only enhanced his power
as for love (idk if this is even part of legends tbh) Quinlan Vos vs Dooku in an effort to save Ventress, fueled by love and he even defeats him despite being massively weaker, but even then I don't even need a source, the will to save a loved one is obviously a driving factor lol it would be for anyone, that's self explanatory. especially seeing as saving her was his main goal "he fought his former Master with single-minded focus"

And yeah I already showed you why he was not exhausted, unless you think he's massively sub pre-prime Yaddle ?

Emphasis on the "seemed" and "almost" in the quote. The first blow is always the easiest to intercept and block, hence why Vader appears so at ease. The follow up has Starkiller landing strikes on Vader's cape

Yes I would agree Vader cannot casually fight SK for an extended duration, worth noting his attitude towards the beginning though it is an indication that things seemed easier for Vader before SK was fueled by his emotions, especially seeing as "Vader was still testing him" further supporting that his emotions did aid his performance

SK landing hits on Vaders cape isnt too much of a big deal reall seeing as even Sha Koon managed to do this and then got smacked




a big cape flying around everywhere isn't exactly hard to hit lol

all indicators of a close-fought duel

Wait I thought the SK clones could easily overpower Vader

...because the text notes he does. He lets go of them due to realising Vader's plan, as I already quoted: "Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. [...] No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now."

...which is reinforced by this supposedly mega angry Starkiller asking Vader to join the Rebellion:

Still though its not like that was directly after that one attack, "and the war raged around them" before SK asks Vader to join them so they are fighting around for at least a short while with SK cutting loose with his emotions and giving it all he has before he realizes Vader's plan

Bolstered and amped are synonymous??? I don't know about you, but when I say someone is amped, I mean their abilities are increased, and that's exactly what bolstered means. Care to clarify?

Well when someone is amped they are usually being drawing their power from a source other than themselves, like an artifact or nexus or something, I wouldnt call using your emotions an amp, otherwise then you could say pretty much everyone is amped in most duels lol, but that's just whatever I'm sure you get what I mean lol

stupendous based on the idea that it would have to be to compensate for 'Killer's exhaustion.

What exhaustion

actually show that Vader's growth makes up for the exhaustion, not just that it's extensive.

Well in any case growing "Stronger and Stronger" in the the force is far more significant than exhaustion obviously lol, but I've debunked that notion anyway

KingKopecz wrote:SK's exhaustion would be the Valley of the Jedi if it was an amp

LUL

Knowledge alone doesn't no, but it's clearly the primary reason, as it's emphasised immediately afterward, by the text: "Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now."

Well yeh he had learned since last time, and improved his dueling skills and probably grown in the force slightly too, nothing indicates that Vader isn't always growing and adapting throughout his whole time in his suit

I already showed you why what u provided doesn't mean he didn't grow, in fact you provided the evidence in that comment, you said

Starkiller "knows the measure" of Vader in TFU 2 based on their last duel, indicating Vader didn't grow much

Yet also say

He knew the measure of his former apprentice

even though I'm sure you'll acknowledge SK in TFUII is more powerful

Furthermore, we've seen Kenobi defend against Anakin - who's far faster than him - through knowing him inside out, so clearly it can make a big difference.

Agreed yes, but its not entirely the same, there are big changes between SK and Galen that Vader is likely unaware of

not to mention the double blades in TFUII

Surely Vader's knowledge of SK would have came into place in TFU and helped him there, but it didn't do too much there, unless Vader spent the last 6 months studying SK, I agree Vader likely worked on defending more against Ataru Shien and Niman, to improve his performance against SK but that still means he has become a better duelist and as I say likely grew a bit in the force along the way

I wasn't referencing the "the same was true in reverse" quote... The fact that my wording was similar to that of the passage doesn't make it a lift from it, unless I specifically use quotation marks.

Huh? you literally said

AA3 wrote:Moreover, the same is true in reverse: Vader cannot breach Starkiller's defenses either, so clearly it does not necessitate superiority

if that is not what you were referring to then that's pretty unclear tbh lol

It can be true in reverse, given that the text is solely referencing defense, as it literally clarifies prior - i.e. Vader's a second ahead of Starkiller's offensive when he needs to block. This does not preclude Starkiller's Lightsaber from arriving a second before Vader's when Starkiller's the one on the defensive - i.e. Vader's offensive is a second behind of Starkiller's defensive when trying to attack. This is self-evidently true, as Vader likewise can't breach Starkiller's defenses. Again, neither can breach the other's defenses, so it's not indicative of superiority.

Agreed but it is also certainly not indicative of this huge inferiority you claim on Vader's part

I'll try to get a response to this done by the weekend.

AA3 wrote:

I'll try to get a response to this done by the weekend.

aight, no rush