Jedi team vs Sidious (ROTJ), Vader (ROTJ), Starkiller (TFU II) & Revan (SoR)

Anakin (ROTS), Yoda (ROTS), Mace (ROTS), Outlander (KOTET) & Luke (DE) vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ), Darth Vader (ROTJ), Starkiller (TFU II) & Revan (SoR).

Rules
Morals off, all bloodlusted,

Perfect teamwork for both teams.

Legend feats only.

Team 1 are ROTS iterations. Anakin is as of beginning of ROTS while the Outlander is as of the end of KOTET.

Anakin can't enter his plot power rage.

Vader isn't emotionally hindered and is fighting at his best.

Team that kills all of its opponents wins.

Battle takes place here:



Who wins out of these two powerhouse teams?

Note: If team 2 stomps because of Sidious, team 1 get unchained Vaylin.

Team one definitely. Team two needs another powerhouse to compete.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Team one definitely. Team two needs another powerhouse to compete.

Hmm, interesting. I assumed ROTJ Sidious' power advantage would be enough to compensate for any weak link that Vader or Starkiller might pose. Depending on what other people say I'll throw in Dooku or Maul for team 2.

Interesting, Vader isn't up to the playing field here while Sids is MVP. Backing team 1 though.

Vader doesn't belong here practically anyone in team 1 can stomp him. Anyway, team 1 destroys. Any three members of team 1 can hold off Sidious for a decent bit of time (perhaps even win), meanwhile, the other 2 fight SK and Vader. Practically anyone on team 1 can hold off SK by themselves meanwhile Vader most certainly can't hold off anyone on team 1. Vader dies, whoever defeats him helps whoever's fighting Starkiller win and then everyone gangs up on Sidious and takes him out. Replace Vader with someone else and the fight might be a little more interesting.

Team 1 cleans house.

Edited the Sith team. They now get Revan Reborn. Interesting to see people acting like SK is somehow so far above Vader that he can go toe to toe with anyone on team 1 while Vader would get ragdolled.

Given Starkiller beat Vader while on the verge of death it shouldn't be surprising...

"The verge of death" when he was recovering his strength yet was fighting Vader with tunnel vision focus (which is a pretty powerful state of mind) while Vader was testing his abilities, then fought Vader to a stalemate while rage amped and Vader was holding back, and later on remarked that he doubted he could beat Vader a third time.

@BreakOfDawn:

A) He had a couple of minutes to recover at best, he obviously still wasn't anywhere close to peak.

B) His focus doesn't negate the fact that he could barely stand without shaking, even Luke can't erase exhaustion with a wave of his hand when focused on an objective.

C) Vader was testing him sure but he was still doing everything in his power to stop him and was in danger of being killed, I very much doubt he was holding back to any considerable extent and still lost the fight.

D) He wasn't "rage amped", he literally asks Vader to join the rebels and muses that he isn't going to allow Vader to drive him back to the DS through hate and despair... which was Vader's intention. Those aren't things somebody in a mindless rage does.

E) Citation needed.

A) He had a couple of minutes to recover at best, he obviously still wasn't anywhere close to peak.

After the "regaining his strength" bit it wasn't once noted that his exhaustion was in any way hampering his abilities. If he were, it would have been noted.

B) His focus doesn't negate the fact that he could barely stand without shaking, even Luke can't erase exhaustion with a wave of his hand when focused on an objective.

No, but it allows him to block out such exhaustion - we both know Galen's willpower is very impressive - and if anything it suggests that he was capable of completely forgetting his exhaustion in favour of striking out at Vader:

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood—the blood of his fellow clones—and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn’t tell.

C) Vader was testing him sure but he was still doing everything in his power to stop him

Not in the initial exchanges he wasn't:

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn’t waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn’t tell.

and was in danger of being killed,

The only time Vader was in danger of being killed was when SK zapped him with concentrated lightning. Until then, SK actually notes Vader's defences as being "impenetrable".

I very much doubt he was holding back to any considerable extent

He was doing everything he could to avoid killing his most successful experiment. Throughout the fight he seeks only to disarm or enrage SK, never to kill or particularly injure him.

and still lost the fight.

Only because SK caught him with his guard down.

D) He wasn't "rage amped", he literally asks Vader to join the rebels and muses that he isn't going to allow Vader to drive him back to the DS through hate and despair... which was Vader's intention. Those aren't things somebody in a mindless rage does.

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward. Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path. “Get out of my way.” “Your feelings for her are not real,” Vader said, not moving. “They are real to me.” Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back. With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying—if she wasn’t already dead—and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy.

“Let me go,” Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. “You’ve taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now.”

Only after this exchange does Starkiller come to a realisation about Vader and suggest joining the Rebels.

E) Citation needed.

Kota followed the harness inside to check that it was firmly secured to the deck and ceiling. Starkiller didn’t go with him. He still wasn’t certain he had done the right thing. Twice now, he’d had Vader at his mercy. Twice, Kota had talked him out of it. He wasn’t sure if that was wisdom of the highest order, or madness utterly beyond his understanding. If Vader broke free, he knew he’d never get a third chance. He had to make this one count.

He doesn't believe he'll ever have Vader at his mercy again, both showing Vader's considerable growth in between TFU I and TFU II and indicating that Vader could definitely have killed him if he'd so desired it.

Anakin carries

@Jake You think beginning of ROTS Anakin > Vader, Sidious, Revan or Starkiller?

@BreakofDawn

After the "regaining his strength" bit it wasn't once noted that his exhaustion was in any way hampering his abilities. If he were, it would have been noted.

Why does it have to be mentioned to be there...? The author doesn't go into detail regarding other times when Galen was clearly portrayed as below peak. For example, after unleashing his full power in the destruction of the Salvation Galen's exhaustion was never mentioned in the novel when he's fighting through enemies to get to Vader despite the fact that it's clear he's not in peak shape given he struggles to lift a small ship in the Wii version of the game. Starkiller simply can't have regained his full strength in mere seconds given he expended his full power twice over which obviously won't come back in a few seconds. GM Luke when exhausted said it'd take days/weeks (can't remember which) to recover his full strength. Plus Starkiller being more exhausted than ever includes the start of the game where he literally is on the verge of death yet for some reason doesn't just wave his hands to restore his Force Reserves... Maybe it's because he can't.

No, but it allows him to block out such exhaustion - we both know Galen's willpower is very impressive - and if anything it suggests that he was capable of completely forgetting his exhaustion in favour of striking out at Vader:

SK may be able to focus despite the exhaustion displaying great willpower yes but that doesn't negate the fact that the exhaustion is there and will hinder him as he has nowhere near the same amount of Force Reserves to draw upon.

Not in the initial exchanges he wasn't:

Why would Vader's effort levels randomly change mid-fight? The passage you posted proves Vader was testing Galen sure but that doesn't mean he wasn't going all out especially since he's noted to be striking and assessing, maintaining cautiousness and even gets struck 3 times on the cape.

The only time Vader was in danger of being killed was when SK zapped him with concentrated lightning. Until then, SK actually notes Vader's defences as being "impenetrable".

This doesn't refute the point in question. You've proven Vader can put up one hell of a fight but in the end, it's made clear exhausted Galen>Vader by him winning the initial engagement in the Cloning Tower.

Only because SK caught him with his guard down.

In the Cloning Tower Vader legitimately lost. The end of the second engagement is a bit more debatable however though I won't bother getting into that because I don't feel the need as the first engagement shows Starkiller's superiority nicely.

Only after this exchange does Starkiller come to a realisation about Vader and suggest joining the Rebels.

So you've proven he was enraged for a single line where he forces Vader back... Cool? After that, all you've proven is that Galen was despairing and wasn't calm neither of which prove he was enraged. Moreover, I'm not exactly sure how Galen's enraged state can be classified as an amp as his behavior makes it clear he's not in Force Rage.

He doesn't believe he'll ever have Vader at his mercy again, both showing Vader's considerable growth in between TFU I and TFU II and indicating that Vader could definitely have killed him if he'd so desired it.

Wat? This doesn't prove Vader is even close to SK combatively speaking only that sould he escape he will make sure to not be captured again.

Starkiller and Vader are major weaklinks against the competition. Team one.

@TheCosmicForce It's late here and I have an exam tomorrow afternoon so I'll cover this briefly then substantiate it later:

Why does it have to be mentioned to be there...? The author doesn't go into detail regarding other times when Galen was clearly portrayed as below peak. For example, after unleashing his full power in the destruction of the Salvation Galen's exhaustion was never mentioned in the novel when he's fighting through enemies to get to Vader despite the fact that it's clear he's not in peak shape given he struggles to lift a small ship in the Wii version of the game. Starkiller simply can't have regained his full strength in mere seconds given he expended his full power twice over which obviously won't come back in a few seconds. GM Luke when exhausted said it'd take days/weeks (can't remember which) to recover his full strength. Plus Starkiller being more exhausted than ever includes the start of the game where he literally is on the verge of death yet for some reason doesn't just wave his hands to restore his Force Reserves... Maybe it's because he can't.

It's literally stated Galen is regaining his strength prior to this. After it's mentioned that he's regaining his strength, there's absolutely no indication that it was hampering him in any way, shape or form. Starkiller for one notes how Vader has improved from a technical and martial perspective, and there is no indication whatsoever that the outcome would have changed.

SK may be able to focus despite the exhaustion displaying great willpower yes but that doesn't negate the fact that the exhaustion is there and will hinder him as he has nowhere near the same amount of Force Reserves to draw upon.

He was already regaining his strength before he even engaged Vader. Even then, Vader completely toying with him and wasn't pushing him, so he'd have even more time there to recover his strength.

Why would Vader's effort levels randomly change mid-fight? The passage you posted proves Vader was testing Galen sure but that doesn't mean he wasn't going all out especially since he's noted to be striking and assessing, maintaining cautiousness and even gets struck 3 times on the cape.

Yes, and? Being struck in a cape which billows out as you move is hardly showing that Galen has Vader on the ropes. Vader's striking and assessing literally plays into the idea of him testing Starkiller, seeing how skilled and powerful he is. He's clearly not going all-out.

This doesn't refute the point in question. You've proven Vader can put up one hell of a fight but in the end, it's made clear exhausted Galen>Vader by him winning the initial engagement in the Cloning Tower.

He didn't win. He exploited an opening and Vader's weakness to lightning, that's hardly showing exhausted Galen > Vader. If anything, it shows an exhausted Galen is comparable to a Vader who's toying with him:

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader’s defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller’s, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now. But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment,

It's even stated that Vader's defences were impenetrable even when he was merely testing Starkiller's limits. SK literally had to wait for Vader to raise his blade when he explicitly had the upper hand by forcing SK back.

In the Cloning Tower Vader legitimately lost.

In the same way that Obi-Wan bested Maul and Savage, sure.

The end of the second engagement is a bit more debatable

It's not debatable at all, lol. It's literally shown and confirmed by Starkiller himself that he needed to catch Vader off-guard to have any hope of winning. Again, Vader was still trying not to kill Galen:

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed. He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbeatable strength, sending Starkiller’s left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master. “This is your last chance,” Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller’s chest. Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn’t want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot.

Any rational being would at least consider Vader’s offer. The second thing Starkiller knew was: The best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he’s won. Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, “I make my own chances.” With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader’s chest plate. The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation.

however though I won't bother getting into that because I don't feel the need as the first engagement shows Starkiller's superiority nicely.

Except it doesn't at all. It's like saying that you're superior to someone because you stabbed them in the ribs with a knife while you engaged them in a sword lock. It's pretty much a cheap shot.

So you've proven he was enraged for a single line where he forces Vader back... Cool?

Twice he tries to force him back. He succeeds the first time then fails the second. Hell, even if it wasn't a rage amp by this point he's already recovered a significant portion of his strength, if not all of it.

After that, all you've proven is that Galen was despairing and wasn't calm neither of which prove he was enraged. Moreover, I'm not exactly sure how Galen's enraged state can be classified as an amp as his behavior makes it clear he's not in Force Rage.

I'm also drawing upon the Wii, Xbox and PC versions where he literally screams with rage, and in the latter two versions is both shown to immediately lash out at Vader and is confirmed to be in a Force rage. Obviously the novel doesn't show everything.

He doesn't believe he'll ever have Vader at his mercy again, both showing Vader's considerable growth in between TFU I and TFU II and indicating that Vader could definitely have killed him if he'd so desired it.

Wat? This doesn't prove Vader is even close to SK combatively speaking only that sould he escape he will make sure to not be captured again.

Read the quote again:

Twice now, he’d had Vader at his mercy.

Twice he's managed to overcome Vader. The first time he beat him, the second he relied on luck and deception.

If Vader broke free, he knew he’d never get a third chance. He had to make this one count.

If Vader breaks free again SK clearly doesn't believe he'll best him again. It's utter bull to claim he doesn't believe he'll capture him again considering the context is that they're in a ship with no Imperials remotely close to him. Even if it were your interpretation, it's pretty damn clear he's saying that he wouldn't be able to catch him again. Vader could and would defeat him, which is also established by key members of the cut story of TFU III.

BreakofDawn wrote:then fought Vader to a stalemate while rage amped and Vader was holding back

Jedi team quite soundly.

@darthant66 Let me exaggerate in peace, damnit.

Yeah, Jedi team cleans house.

Hey let's get an A+, pair him with a bunch of B's and then put him against a Team of A's and two Bs.

So fair.

Jedi win.

Those are some highly suspect arbitrary classifications you've got there. I agree with your overall sentiment though.

Jedi team win

Jedi team

Yeah, the Jedi team honestly stomps.