Re: Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader

November 16th 2020, 1:11 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Seturna wrote:oops sorry starkiller trashes vader like the trash can he is

there ya go. Vader is weak and slow and sub TPM Kenobi per God himself. In the bible it was so written that Vader is fat and slow and cannot flip.

Meanwhile SK is dashing around with the grace of the PT in his step. He beats down such notable PT Jedi as Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus and Shaak Ti. He stomps Vader effortlessly while so exhausted he can barely stand. He didn't ragdoll him simply because he wanted to prove his superiority. SK is probably Yoda tier Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 4233314142

Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 4233314142

November 16th 2020, 1:23 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

damn if this isn’t accurate right here. I wonder what is Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 4233314142

at least we both agree SK is Yoda tier! very likely above considering how he destroyed that isd ship, not even tpm kenobi can do that

November 16th 2020, 2:36 pm

November 16th 2020, 4:19 pm

The Fallen Warrior wrote:

Seturna wrote:oops sorry starkiller trashes vader like the trash can he is

there ya go. Vader is weak and slow and sub TPM Kenobi per God himself. In the bible it was so written that Vader is fat and slow and cannot flip.

Meanwhile SK is dashing around with the grace of the PT in his step. He beats down such notable PT Jedi as Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus and Shaak Ti. He stomps Vader effortlessly while so exhausted he can barely stand. He didn't ragdoll him simply because he wanted to prove his superiority. SK is probably Yoda tier

HP Legend's gonna get a boner while reading this

November 16th 2020, 5:32 pm

Seturna wrote:damn if this isn’t accurate right here. I wonder what is

at least we both agree SK is Yoda tier! very likely above considering how he destroyed that isd ship, not even tpm kenobi can do that

lol who gonna tell him

November 16th 2020, 8:46 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Seturna wrote:damn if this isn’t accurate right here. I wonder what is

at least we both agree SK is Yoda tier! very likely above considering how he destroyed that isd ship, not even tpm kenobi can do that

lol who gonna tell him

Tell him what? He's speaking the truth.

November 16th 2020, 8:47 pm

George Lucas disagrees

November 17th 2020, 3:58 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Seturna wrote:damn if this isn’t accurate right here. I wonder what is

at least we both agree SK is Yoda tier! very likely above considering how he destroyed that isd ship, not even tpm kenobi can do that

lol who gonna tell him

Tell him what? He's speaking the truth.

bet. SK = ROTS sidious too now, > vitiate and everything. fuck revan lmao fodder

January 26th 2021, 11:07 pm

ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>>>ANH Vader~TFU 2 Vader>Starkiller

Vader fodderizes.

January 27th 2021, 2:48 pm

@iamthatguy

TFU 2 Vader>Starkiller

Why?

January 27th 2021, 2:56 pm

AA3 wrote:@iamthatguy

TFU 2 Vader>Starkiller

Why?

"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...

...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."

--Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless.

-- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

January 28th 2021, 4:56 am

@iamthatguy

"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...

...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."

--Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

Statements from voice actors about early concepts for non-canon material don't have any authority to retcon the already established lore. Per both the novel and script, Starkiller legitimately defeated Vader, and the latter was going all out.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader managing to successfully TK an emotionally unbalanced and exhausted Starkiller doesn't make him superior given that he was unable to follow up on this momentary advantage. Starkiller has already displayed that he can duel evenly with Vader and defeat him, even while exhausted, in both The Cloning Tower and the final section of the fight. Furthermore, if we look at the feats of a non-exhausted Starkiller, he's clearly vastly beyond Vader:

(1) He stomped Vader at the end of TFU after his emotional revelation - pushing him onto the back foot, striking him repeatedly in a short period of time, and Telekinetically dominating him - and Vader is confirmed as not growing much between the games.

(2) He pulverised the army of Starkiller Clones who could have "easily overpowered" Vader.

(3) He mitigated the effects of Sheev's Lightning for 30 seconds.

Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless.

-- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Again, Starkiller was exhausted. And how does this indicate superiority, exactly? Being able to mitigate most of Starkiller's Force attacks only proves he's comparable, as he's clearly not capable of setting up a totally impenetrable defence, per your own quote. How on earth is he superior if Starkiller can breach his guard with Force attacks?

January 28th 2021, 7:40 am

Starkiller wasn't exhausted, AA3 is a mega retard who cannot accept the fact that SK sucks.

January 28th 2021, 9:36 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Statements from voice actors about early concepts for non-canon material don't have any authority to retcon the already established lore. Per both the novel and script, Starkiller legitimately defeated Vader, and the latter was going all out.

I know they aren't definitive Canon, but they portray the relative idea that SK was out of his depth. But since TFU 3 never got released I guess it doesn't matter.

SK only legitimately defeated Vader in TFU 1, where Vader was all out.

Vader managing to successfully TK an emotionally unbalanced and exhausted Starkiller doesn't make him superior given that he was unable to follow up on this momentary advantage. Starkiller has already displayed that he can duel evenly with Vader and defeat him, even while exhausted, in both The Cloning Tower and the final section of the fight. Furthermore, if we look at the feats of a non-exhausted Starkiller, he's clearly vastly beyond Vader:

Lol SK wasn't exhausted. And if you want to play the mentally hindered game I can just as easily say Vader wasn't going all out; since he wasn't.

(1) He stomped Vader at the end of TFU after his emotional revelation - pushing him onto the back foot, striking him repeatedly in a short period of time, and Telekinetically dominating him - and Vader is confirmed as not growing much between the games.

Irrelevant, hence why I excluded TFU 1 Vader.

(2) He pulverised the army of Starkiller Clones who could have "easily overpowered" Vader.

By his own opinion they could have easily overpowered Vader, not a solid foundation to stand on the belief of in Universe characters who are more often than not: wrong.

(3) He mitigated the effects of Sheev's Lightning for 30 seconds.

You mean the toying Sheev at the end of TFU? The same Sheev that tanked his oneness blast??

Again, Starkiller was exhausted. And how does this indicate superiority, exactly? Being able to mitigate most of Starkiller's Force attacks only proves he's comparable, as he's clearly not capable of setting up a totally impenetrable defence, per your own quote.

Starkiller wasn't exhausted, and Vader rendering SK's attacks "useless" when he felt so puts him definitively above SK.

Furthermore, the idea that Vader couldn't set up an impenetrable defense can be attributed to the fact that he wasn't exactly invested in the fight per the novel. But when Vader felt like applying his power/knowledge he was capable of mitigating all of SK's attacks, essentially making his defence impenetrable whenever he pleased.

How on earth is he superior if Starkiller can breach his guard with Force attacks?

How on Earth is Starkiller superior if he can be tossed around by Vader?

January 28th 2021, 11:55 am

Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

January 28th 2021, 12:58 pm

@iamthatguy

I know they aren't definitive Canon, but they portray the relative idea that SK was out of his depth. But since TFU 3 never got released I guess it doesn't matter.

The quote portrays an idea that was never shown in continuity, and actually outright contradicted. So, yes, it doesn't matter.

Lol SK wasn't exhausted.

Uh-huh...

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

This is right before the fight, and "never felt so exhausted" includes an instance where SK almost fully dissipated his reserves from surviving solely off the force for 13 days, meaning he's incredibly weakened while fighting Vader. Also, note that while the quote says SK was "regaining his strength" this doesn't mean he had even close to fully restored, as it typically takes Force Users several days to recover in such scenarios - so SK at best recovered a microbial fraction of his power.

And if you want to play the mentally hindered game I can just as easily say Vader wasn't going all out; since he wasn't.

About that...

The Force Unleashed II wrote:They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him.

Vader, per the novelization, used "everything in his power" to try and stop Starkiller, so he clearly was going all out. Furthermore:

The Force Unleashed II Script wrote:We were adamant that though he might be defeated in combat, Vader is never completely vanquished. Even here, he is a proud warrior, perhaps secretly hoping that Starkiller will deliver a killing blow.

The TFU 2 Script directly refutes the idea that Vader was cutting back his power/feigning weakness relative to Starkiller - it acknowledges he was legitimately defeated.

Irrelevant, hence why I excluded TFU 1 Vader.

The text for TFU 2 notes that Starkiller "knew the measure" of Vader based on their fight in TFU indicating that Vader didn't grow much in between the two games. So, yes, it is relevant.

By his own opinion they could have easily overpowered Vader, not a solid foundation to stand on the belief of in Universe characters who are more often than not: wrong.

Why is Starkiller wrong? He experiences Vader's power first hand at the start of the game (when he battles Vader with Force Lightning and watches Vader try to pull his TIE Fighter back with Telekinesis), so it's not as if he has an inaccurate gauge of his master's power, and I can't see a reason why he would be biased. Appealing to an unestablished trend among IU character opinions isn't an actual argument - it's just an assertion - and doesn't account for the specifics of this situation.

You mean the toying Sheev at the end of TFU?

Citation needed for Sheev toying, because the novelization clearly indicates otherwise when it states he's in "desperation". Furthermore, why would Sidious be toying when:

-Starkiller has refused to embrace the Dark Side, which when Luke did so resulted in The Emperor torturing him.
-Starkiller is defending Kota and the rebels from Sheev, and if they escape they'll form an alliance against him.
-Starkiller closes the distance between them and electrocutes Sheev with his own Lightning.

The same Sheev that tanked his oneness blast??

Sheev tanked a small fraction of the blast's potency. Given that he was in front of Galen and the blast spread out in all directions, the majority of the energy presumably didn't touch him.

Vader rendering SK's attacks "useless" when he felt so puts him definitively above SK.

Re-stating your initial claim doesn't actually prove it's true. Why does Vader defending against SK's Force attacks make him stronger?

Furthermore, the idea that Vader couldn't set up an impenetrable defense can be attributed to the fact that he wasn't exactly invested in the fight per the novel. But when Vader felt like applying his power/knowledge he was capable of mitigating all of SK's attacks, essentially making his defence impenetrable whenever he pleased.

Citation needed for Vader not being invested.

--- --- ---

You missed also one of my claims - a rather important one at that - so, please, do me the courtesy of addressing it next time round:

I wrote:Starkiller has already displayed that he can duel evenly with Vader and defeat him, even while exhausted, in both The Cloning Tower and the final section of the fight.

January 28th 2021, 1:40 pm

Vaelias wrote:Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

Yeah, this is kind of pointless, to be honest.

January 28th 2021, 1:49 pm

The Slick Obi wrote:

Vaelias wrote:Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

Yeah, this is kind of pointless, to be honest.

Agreed

Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 815462187

Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 1289255181

January 28th 2021, 2:50 pm

Vaelias wrote:Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

We already had a conversation on Discord about this where you conceded. Starkiller (TFU 2) vs ROTJ Vader - Page 2 1220391476

January 28th 2021, 2:54 pm

The Slick Obi wrote:

Vaelias wrote:Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

Yeah, this is kind of pointless, to be honest.

There certainly is a point to it given the surrounding context of the fight - it isn't nearly as definitive as you're making out. I can understand thinking Vader wins, but saying there's no value in discussing the outcome is cringe.

January 28th 2021, 3:19 pm

AA3 wrote:

Vaelias wrote:Well SK Struggled with pre ANH Vader, Vader grows far more powerful since then so Vader smacks by ROTJ

We already had a conversation on Discord about this where you conceded.

I didn't concede i conceded the notion that SKs oneness built up over the course of the fight, SK is still slower than Vader or they r equals at best

January 28th 2021, 7:48 pm

@AA3 I'll get back to this, but I have one question for you regarding SK since you seem to be a fan of him.

Where do you hold SK as a force user? KFV level? Dooku level??

January 29th 2021, 6:21 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Why are we using exhaustion as some sort of an excuse as to why Starkiller couldn't stomp Vader? This argument has no legs.
When did exhaustion ever fail Dooku when he equalled Yoda in AOTC? When did exhaustion fail Kenobi badly when he managed to solo both Maul and Opress on Florrum?

Also The Clones could have overpowered Vader quote isn't reliable for 2 reasons.

As others have pointed out, it's just Starkiller's opinion so it holds no canonicity. If you think character opinion's hold weight, then lets take Feris Olin's opinion of Vader being faster than ROTS Kenobi as canon now. Or lets take Bane's opinion of Kas'im being a GOAT duelist seriously.

And 2nd, the ability to overpower someone does not necessarily mean they would win in a duel.
Lets look at this example.

https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=156
Here Anakin was able to overpower Dooku, and then what happens?
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=164
Dooku stuns Anakin with force lightning and then sends a powerful force push back at him, still reaffirming that Dooku is>TCW Anakin.
So just because the Starkiller Clones could "easily overpower" Vader, does not mean that Vader would not find a way to net a win by use of his force abilities.

AA3 seems to be under the assumption that the quote means that a pack of Starkiller Clones are>>>>>>Vader when there is little to support this.
And given Vader's restricted movement and fighting style, it would make sense for him to have a harder time fighting the Clones in comparison to the Starkiller who is in a lot better physical condition, and with his two lightsabers, he is more suited in dealing with multiple oponents unlike Vader.
Even then none of this means that Vader wouldn't just proceed to use his force abilities to stomp the clones himself.

So in short, even if the quote is canon, it still lacks context. Starkiller thinks his clones could overpower Vader. That doesn't mean he thinks the Clones could stomp Vader or let alone win against him. In the end that's just your interpretation which is backed up by nothing other than to wank Starkiller.

And lets not forget that Starkiller hasn't seen Vader engage in a duel with these Clones, so how the hell can his opinion be trusted in the first place?

January 29th 2021, 9:01 am

@Mysteryman06: Holy fuck, you're actually braindead. I'll offer up a full reply later, but you have no right to tell me that my argument "has no legs" when you write shite like this:

And 2nd, the ability to overpower someone does not necessarily mean they would win in a duel.
Lets look at this example.

https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=156
Here Anakin was able to overpower Dooku, and then what happens?
https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=164
Dooku stuns Anakin with force lightning and then sends a powerful force push back at him, still reaffirming that Dooku is>TCW Anakin.
So just because the Starkiller Clones could "easily overpower" Vader, does not mean that Vader would not find a way to net a win by use of his force abilities.

>Yes, what Starkiller really means when he says they'd "easily overpower" Vader isn't that they'd beat him, but that they'd gain a temporary edge and Vader would push back and win even though this is never stated.

https://giphy.com/gifs/bobs-burgers-l0HlIbzTDGWY0ySly

@iamthatguy

I'll get back to this, but I have one question for you regarding SK since you seem to be a fan of him.

Where do you hold SK as a force user? KFV level? Dooku level??

He's Dooku level overall, imo. Above in raw power, but he lacks the Mastery and duelling skill necessary to be able to decisively beat Dooku (he'd still win, but it'd be really close).

@Vaelias

I didn't concede i conceded the notion that SKs oneness built up over the course of the fight, SK is still slower than Vader or they r equals at best

Based on what?

January 29th 2021, 9:04 am

Holy fuck, you're actually braindead. I'll offer up a full reply later, but you have no right to tell me that my argument "has no legs" when you write shite like this:

Calm yourself.