Re: Darth Vader(ROTJ) vs Count Dooku(ROTS) vs Maul(SoD)

November 16th 2020, 2:41 pm

I don't deny that Anakin is superior to Dooku. Yeah, he is superior to Dooku but I don't think he could've done the same against Dooku if he didn't have these advantages.

He does not need a single advantage to replicate what he did because he was already far superior at that point.

I didn't say that training increases your force power. I meant that training increases your skill, experience and mastery and it makes you more formidable, not mention that Vader grew stronger over time.

And again, I've already told you that Anakin has already beaten and was shown to be canonically superior to someone who had double the amount of training RoTJ Vader had.

As for Lucas' quote, it is referring to power, not skill or mastery.

And again, Yes. If you want to go at that way, neither does this refer to either skill or mastery :

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been.

Vader has superior command of the force because he has comparable power, much more experience and much more mastery than Anakin.

By my count this is the third time you've said this without substantiating it.

November 16th 2020, 2:44 pm

Vader ragdolls these scrubs.

November 16th 2020, 3:25 pm

Yes, he is far superior but I don't think that he could've replicated this if he didn't have these advantages because this feat was circumstantial. He could've defeated Dooku though but I don't think that he could've defeated Dooku so easily if he didn't have these advantages. Anakin defeated Dooku so easily because this fight was circumstantial and there is a big power gap between Anakin and Dooku. I doubt that there is a such power gap between Anakin and Vader. So he can't do the same against Vader.

The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

Vader lost his power, not his experience and mastery. He fought new opponents and developed himself in using the force. That's called battle experience. So yeah, Vader has comparable power, much more mastery and much more experience than Anakin.

November 16th 2020, 3:42 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

"Vader fought people, therefore he has comparable power to Anakin."

Hmmmm

November 16th 2020, 3:48 pm

Yes, he is far superior but I don't think that he could've replicated this if he didn't have these advantages because this feat was circumstantial. He could've defeated Dooku though but I don't think that he could've defeated Dooku so easily if he didn't have these advantages. Anakin defeated Dooku so easily because this fight was circumstantial

Your argument is based on Suit Vader having more experience and training. I've shown you an example of Anakin beating someone who has that. Anakin would have beaten Dooku in the exact same manner, regardless of the "circumstances". Gillard has already said there's a huge gap between tiers, so you can't say Anakin couldn't have done what he did Dooku without advantages, given how Anakin is a 9 and Dooku is an 8.

and there is a big power gap between Anakin and Dooku. I doubt that there is a such power gap between Anakin and Vader. So he can't do the same against Vader.

Considering that Dooku can throw around 200 meter long ships and was an equal of AoTC Yoda per Lucas, yeah I'd say the gap between Anakin and Vader is about as large as the one between Anakin and Dooku.

The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

These statements don't really prove anything since they're overruled by higher canon. So a moot point.

Vader lost his power, not his experience and mastery.

You're right. They're the same person, except he lost half of his body and was put in a mechanical suit which forced him to adopt a whole new fighting/lightsaber style. Meaning he's not as skilled as Anakin is by any means or measures nor can he replicate any of what he did as his pre suit self due to the limitations the suit imposes on him. Neither does he have the same force power to match pre suit Anakin/Vader's augmented strength, due to the sheer size of the gap between them in force power.

That's called battle experience.

Yeah I think it's safe to say I've already explained multiple times why suit Vader's battle experience does not hold a candle to the experience Dooku had and how Anakin dealt with him. Not really going to repeat the same point.

So yeah, Vader has comparable power, much more mastery and much more experience than Anakin.

Pal, all due respect, if you're going to continue saying the same claim without substantiating it, there's really no point in continuing this argument.

November 16th 2020, 4:47 pm

Why has Vader comparable power to Anakin to begin with?

November 16th 2020, 5:15 pm

Something something 80% quote something

November 17th 2020, 5:43 am

Your argument is based on Suit Vader having more experience and training. I've shown you an example of Anakin beating someone who has that. Anakin would have beaten Dooku in the exact same manner, regardless of the "circumstances". Gillard has already said there's a huge gap between tiers, so you can't say Anakin couldn't have done what he did Dooku without advantages, given how Anakin is a 9 and Dooku is an 8.

How does huge gap translate to stomp gap?

Dooku is eight.
Yoda is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Yoda failed to stomp Dooku.

or

Kenobi is eight.
Anakin is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Anakin failed to stomp Kenobi.

I don't deny that Anakin could defeat Dooku. Yes. Even if he didn't have these advantages, he could defeat Dooku decisively. But I doubt that he could stomp Dooku if he didn't have these advantages, given even Yoda failed to stomp Dooku and Yoda and Anakin were roughly equal.

Anakin can't do the same against Vader because these advantages don't work on Vader and there isn't the same power gap between Anakin and Vader.

Considering that Dooku can throw around 200 meter long ships and was an equal of AoTC Yoda per Lucas, yeah I'd say the gap between Anakin and Vader is about as large as the one between Anakin and Dooku.

And considering that Vader is the greatest jedi killer, I'd say that the power gap between Anakin and Vader isn't about as large as the gap between Anakin and Dooku.

These statements don't really prove anything since they're overruled by higher canon. So a moot point.

What disproves Vader being more experienced than Anakin? Considering that Vader fought new opponents and developed himself in using the force, this quote is true.

You're right. They're the same person, except he lost half of his body and was put in a mechanical suit which forced him to adopt a whole new fighting/lightsaber style. Meaning he's not as skilled as Anakin is by any means or measures nor can he replicate any of what he did as his pre suit self due to the limitations the suit imposes on him. Neither does he have the same force power to match pre suit Anakin/Vader's augmented strength, due to the sheer size of the gap between them in force power.

Vader lost his power, not his skill, mastery and experience. He had much more experience and much more mastery than Anakin, given he fought new opponents and developed himself in using the force. Vader was as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he has become much more formidable over time. So he nearly closed the power gap between him and Anakin. And he surpassed Anakin due to his experience and mastery, given he was stated to be at the height of his power during ROTJ.

Yeah I think it's safe to say I've already explained multiple times why suit Vader's battle experience does not hold a candle to the experience Dooku had and how Anakin dealt with him. Not really going to repeat the same point.

The advantages doesn't work on Vader and there isn't the same power gap between Anakin and Vader.

Pal, all due respect, if you're going to continue saying the same claim without substantiating it, there's really no point in continuing this argument.

Many quotes and implicitations prove this.

November 17th 2020, 6:58 am

If you’re gonna say ”many quotes and stuff proves this”; show the quotes. Just a tip.

November 17th 2020, 7:48 am

November 17th 2020, 10:40 am

Dooku is eight.
Yoda is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Yoda failed to stomp Dooku.

There's a couple of wrong things here :
1. Dooku and Yoda were equals in the force as of AoTC per Lucas
2.There are multiple versions of the fight that have Yoda overwhelming/outclassing Dooku in lightsaber combat, like the Junior and Senior novels :

It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to life.Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust. But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement Yoda turned the blade aside. Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast. Not fast enough. With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even hose of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade. With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately. Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force. "Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
Source : AoTC Adult Novelization

Kenobi is eight.
Anakin is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Anakin failed to stomp Kenobi.

This is also a false equivalency. Yes, In a highly circumstantial and contextual fight. Ignoring the fact that the Novelization flat out states Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and knew his moves :

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.
Source : Revenge of the Sith Novelization

I don't deny that Anakin could defeat Dooku. Yes. Even if he didn't have these advantages, he could defeat Dooku decisively. But I doubt that he could stomp Dooku if he didn't have these advantages

What advantages? The novel flat out states that his lightsaber skill was irrelevant and his force knowledge was a joke when compared to Anakin :

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste—the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life—are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
Source : Revenge of the Sith novelization

Anakin literally does not need a single advantage to beat Dooku the way he did.

Anakin can't do the same against Vader because these advantages don't work on Vader and there isn't the same power gap between Anakin and Vader.

You're yet to provide any substantial evidence to this claim.

And considering that Vader is the greatest jedi killer, I'd say that the power gap between Anakin and Vader isn't about as large as the gap between Anakin and Dooku.

He's the greatest killer of Jedi who are ragdoll tier fodder to Dooku and Anakin. Not really strong evidence to prove your point.

What disproves Vader being more experienced than Anakin? Considering that Vader fought new opponents and developed himself in using the force, this quote is true.

New opponents like who? The Vong? Most people he fought were Jedi who spent years in hiding and exile, all of whom are ragdoll tier fodder to Pre Suit Anakin/Vader.

Vader lost his power, not his skill, mastery and experience.

Pal, are you even reading what I'm saying? He was put in a suit that inhibited his movements so much that he had to change the way he fought. He cannot be skilled as Anakin because it literally makes no sense in any sense of the word.

Vader was as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS.

RoTJ Vader doesn't even have half the technical skill RoTS Dooku has. Nor the "experience and mastery" that you're constantly bringing up. Maul is irrelevant here.

he has become much more formidable over time. So he nearly closed the power gap between him and Anakin. And he surpassed Anakin due to his experience and mastery, given he was stated to be at the height of his power during ROTJ.

And this is now the fourth time you've said this without providing any proof for it, besides a statement that is overruled by a higher canonical source.

The advantages doesn't work on Vader and there isn't the same power gap between Anakin and Vader.

Yet again you haven't provided any plausible evidence for this.

Many quotes and implications prove this.

So far you've posted a whooping two sources. So yeah I'm not really going to bother continuing this, because you're yet to provide any actual evidence beyond your own subjective POV, and it doesn't seem the you are considering that this the third or fourth time you've replied without providing any.

November 17th 2020, 10:50 am

@”DARK LORD OF THE SITH”

Just a couple of things i’m not sure with.

Vader lost his power, not his skill, mastery and experience. He had much more experience and much more mastery than Anakin, given he fought new opponents and developed himself in using the force.

How does this mean that Vader shares the same experience Anakin has? Your argument is based on Vader being more experienced because he fought new opponents. The difference is really that he may have fought more opponents, but Anakin fought stronger opponents. Dooku and Ventress to name a few, while Vader hasn’t really fought many people on their calibre I would say personally. Not arguing Vader is unimpressive, because he isn’t. He’s fought plenty of good people, but none I would argue are Dooku level.

Dooku is eight.
Yoda is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Yoda failed to stomp Dooku.

or

Kenobi is eight.
Anakin is nine.
There is a huge gap between eight and nine.
Anakin failed to stomp Kenobi.

Why bring these matches up even? I’d argue both have their fare amount of circumstances especially in the latter’s fight. Yoda only ”failed” to stomp Dooku in TCW/AOTC. There’s nothing that disproves of Yoda being able to stomp him by ROTS. Yoda could’ve been a tier 8 in TCW for all we know.

The advantages doesn't work on Vader and there isn't the same power gap between Anakin and Vader.

I ask again. Why is Vader comparable to Anakin in power? Just curious on what the case is.

November 17th 2020, 12:16 pm

There's a couple of wrong things here :
1. Dooku and Yoda were equals in the force as of AoTC per Lucas
2.There are multiple versions of the fight that have Yoda overwhelming/outclassing Dooku in lightsaber combat, like the Junior and Senior novels :

I am not talking about AOTC. They fought many times. Yoda failed to stomp Dooku in all fights.

This is also a false equivalency. Yes, In a highly circumstantial and contextual fight. Ignoring the fact that the Novelization flat out states Obi Wan knew how Anakin fought and knew his moves :

Anakin also knew Kenobi's moves and how Kenobi fought.

What advantages? The novel flat out states that his lightsaber skill was irrelevant and his force knowledge was a joke when compared to Anakin :

He defeated Dooku so easily because Djem So >> Makashi and Dooku used much of his power to defeat Kenobi.

Anakin literally does not need a single advantage to beat Dooku the way he did.

I don't deny that Anakin could defeat Dooku. Even if he didn't these advantages, he could defeat Dooku decisively. But I doubt that he could defeat Dooku so easily if he didn't have these advantages, given Yoda failed to stomp Dooku and Yoda and Anakin were roughly equal.

You're yet to provide any substantial evidence to this claim.

Because Vader doesn't use makashi and we aren't using an exhausted Vader.

He's the greatest killer of Jedi who are ragdoll tier fodder to Dooku and Anakin. Not really strong evidence to prove your point.

Well, Vader is stated to be Sheev's greatest jedi killer. So he is above Dooku and Maul. That's why the gap between Anakin and Vader isn't around as large as the gap between Anakin and Dooku.

New opponents like who? The Vong? Most people he fought were Jedi who spent years in hiding and exile, all of whom are ragdoll tier fodder to Pre Suit Anakin/Vader.

Well, I mean he fought new opponents and depeloped himself in using the force. It makes him more experienced and more masterful.

Pal, are you even reading what I'm saying? He was put in a suit that inhibited his movements so much that he had to change the way he fought. He cannot be skilled as Anakin because it literally makes no sense in any sense of the word

He may not as fast as Anakin. He can make up for this due to force augmentation anyways. He is definitely more experienced and more masterful than Anakin though, given he gained more experience and more mastery over time.

RoTJ Vader doesn't even have half the technical skill RoTS Dooku has. Nor the "experience and mastery" that you're constantly bringing up. Maul is irrelevant here.

What does it have to do with that? I said that Vader was as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he grew much more formidable and surpassed them.

And this is now the fourth time you've said this without providing any proof for it, besides a statement that is overruled by a higher canonical source.

What source disproves Vader being generally better than Anakin? I don't deny that Anakin is more powerful than Vader. But Vader is generally better than Anakin, given he has comparable power, much more experience and much more mastery.

Yet again you haven't provided any plausible evidence for this.

I already proved this. Vader was as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he grew much more formidable and surpassed them. He nearly closed the power gap between him and Anakin. He was at the height of his power because he was greater at using the force althought Anakin was more powerful.

So far you've posted a whooping two sources. So yeah I'm not really going to bother continuing this, because you're yet to provide any actual evidence beyond your own subjective POV, and it doesn't seem the you are considering that this the third or fourth time you've replied without providing any.

Yes, I have posted two quotes and you haven't disproved them.

How does this mean that Vader shares the same experience Anakin has? Your argument is based on Vader being more experienced because he fought new opponents. The difference is really that he may have fought more opponents, but Anakin fought stronger opponents. Dooku and Ventress to name a few, while Vader hasn’t really fought many people on their calibre I would say personally. Not arguing Vader is unimpressive, because he isn’t. He’s fought plenty of good people, but none I would argue are Dooku level.

Vader lost his power, not his experience and mastery. He already had the same experience when he became Vader in ROTS. Then, his experince and mastery increased and he grew much more formidable.

Why bring these matches up even? I’d argue both have their fare amount of circumstances especially in the latter’s fight.

Yeah, Anakin vs Kenobi is kinda circumstantial but I don't see why Dooku vs Yoda is circumstantial.

Yoda only ”failed” to stomp Dooku in TCW/AOTC. There’s nothing that disproves of Yoda being able to stomp him by ROTS. Yoda could’ve been a tier 8 in TCW for all we know.

Prove it

I ask again. Why is Vader comparable to Anakin in power? Just curious on what the case is.

Vader was already as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he grew much more formidable and surpassed them. He nearly closed the power gap between him and Anakin. Considering that Vader has comparable power, much more experience and much more mastery, he is above Anakin.

November 17th 2020, 2:27 pm

Vader lost his power, not his experience and mastery. He already had the same experience when he became Vader in ROTS. Then, his experince and mastery increased and he grew much more formidable.

Correct. Though Vader needed over years to actually get used to his suit and to get better in his suit. Anakin didn’t have any of those hinderances that Vader has. Anakin doesn’t need a respirator to keep him alive, he doesn’t need a suit to help him stand. You see my point here? He completely needed to re-build his fighting style to fit the criteria of his suit.

Prove it

Well if there’s an ”enormous” gap between the tiers. Dooku wouldn’t be close to or equal to Yoda would he? I don’t see anything wrong with having Dooku performing decently against Yoda. But that he’s close is kinda weird for me. At most Dooku would be able to give Yoda a decent fight by ROTS, imo. Considering there’s an enourmous gap on paper between them.

Vader was already as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he grew much more formidable and surpassed them. He nearly closed the power gap between him and Anakin. Considering that Vader has comparable power, much more experience and much more mastery, he is above Anakin.

For the bolded part. Why exactly is he Dooku or Maul level by ROTS(that’s a pretty big gap too)?

November 17th 2020, 3:02 pm

Lol, Vader is fat and slow per lucas

"Vader might have been powerful back when he was a whiny bitch but nowadays he's really just a slow old man with weight problems."
-George Lucas Revenge of the PT docuseries available only on HBO

Vader gets destroyed by everyone he comes into contact with. Old Ben is probably stronger than Vader based purely on Vader's inability to overpower Tsui Choi. Vader is so weak that when asked if he should but put in TFU Lucas's exact words were "yeah but let's make sure you can beat the hell out of him."

The only reason Vader has ever gotten any credit at all is because rabbid fanboys like In-shitiousVader and Snake of Dawn perpetuated myths about his power. Every single good quote Vader has is referring to either military power or potential and every person who has complimented Vader is bias because the empire specifically created a propaganda campaign to make him seem unbeatable.

November 17th 2020, 3:56 pm

"vader's military power made sedriss and kar vastor shit their pants more than they even shat their pants" - phantom menace.

November 18th 2020, 4:28 am

Correct. Though Vader needed over years to actually get used to his suit and to get better in his suit. Anakin didn’t have any of those hinderances that Vader has. Anakin doesn’t need a respirator to keep him alive, he doesn’t need a suit to help him stand. You see my point here? He completely needed to re-build his fighting style to fit the criteria of his suit.

Yes. His armour hindered his physical abilities. His force augmentation could make up for this anyways. He rebuilded his fighting style. Anakin may be more skilled but considering Vader gained more experience and more mastery and developed himself in using the force, Vader could make up for this.

Well if there’s an ”enormous” gap between the tiers. Dooku wouldn’t be close to or equal to Yoda would he? I don’t see anything wrong with having Dooku performing decently against Yoda. But that he’s close is kinda weird for me. At most Dooku would be able to give Yoda a decent fight by ROTS, imo. Considering there’s an enourmous gap on paper between them.

I never claimed that Dooku is close to Yoda. Yeah, Yoda is beyond Dooku but it doesn't mean that Dooku is a fodder for him. Anakin and Yoda are different people. Their fighting styles are different. Circumstances are different. Anakin defeated Dooku so easily because Djem So >> Makashi and Dooku used much of his power to defeat Kenobi. Yoda didn't have these advantages over Dooku. So it has little to do with tiers.

For the bolded part. Why exactly is he Dooku or Maul level by ROTS(that’s a pretty big gap too)?

He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

Vader was as powerful as Dooku or Maul during ROTS. Then, he grew far more formidable and surpassed them.

November 18th 2020, 5:41 am

Suited Darth Vader is over-rated and over hyped. He couldn't even beat a rusty and old Obi Wan who was out of form for years.

ROTS Dooku wins this.

November 18th 2020, 3:36 pm

Rei wrote:Suited Darth Vader is over-rated and over hyped. He couldn't even beat a rusty and old Obi Wan who was out of form for years.

ROTS Dooku wins this.

shit, neither could sheev. otherwise, he wouldve done so ages ago smh. no knowledge of the lore. kids these days.

November 18th 2020, 5:35 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Rei wrote:Suited Darth Vader is over-rated and over hyped. He couldn't even beat a rusty and old Obi Wan who was out of form for years.

ROTS Dooku wins this.

shit, neither could sheev. otherwise, he wouldve done so ages ago smh. no knowledge of the lore. kids these days.

You are trolling, right?

November 18th 2020, 6:34 pm

Rei wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Rei wrote:Suited Darth Vader is over-rated and over hyped. He couldn't even beat a rusty and old Obi Wan who was out of form for years.

ROTS Dooku wins this.

shit, neither could sheev. otherwise, he wouldve done so ages ago smh. no knowledge of the lore. kids these days.

You are trolling, right?

am i wrong?

November 30th 2020, 10:43 am

Hey guys. I was acting like a Vader wanker. Actually I was trolling. Dooku wins tbh.

November 30th 2020, 11:25 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Supreme Leader wrote:Hey guys. I was acting like a Vader wanker. Actually I was trolling. Dooku wins tbh.

Darth Vader(ROTJ) vs Count Dooku(ROTS) vs Maul(SoD) - Page 3 1668617588

November 30th 2020, 11:29 am

Top 10 anime plot twists

November 30th 2020, 11:56 am

KingKopecz wrote:Top 10 anime plot twists

guess u need to watch ROTS and ESB again. to think that darth vader was anakin skywalker's father. i never saw it coming.