Darth Vader(ROTJ) vs Count Dooku(ROTS) vs Maul(SoD)

TPM kenobi >> council members, hell yeah

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:TPM kenobi >> council members, hell yeah

Qui-Gon is the one of the strongest on the council by TPM and Kenobi is on his heels. Then Kenobi arguably grows quite a lot from his duel with Maul via living Force stuff. So, yeah, that's entirely believable.

Meatpants wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:TPM kenobi >> council members, hell yeah

Qui-Gon is the one of the strongest on the council by TPM and Kenobi is on his heels. Then Kenobi arguably grows quite a lot from his duel with Maul via living Force stuff. So, yeah, that's entirely believable.

u might wanna change ur name to steakpants after this

ARCHIBALD STEAKPANTS!

Meatpants wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Honestly going by Lucas's statements Dooku VS Vader AND Maul might be more a fair fight. I don't think Vader is literally sub TPM Kenobi but I'd say he's definitely weaker than Dooku.

How can you say that when Lucas thinks TPM Kenobi is a better swordfighter than Vader?

Taking that as literally going by Lucas and Gillard's tier system Kit Fisto > Vader which I don't feel like arguing.

I can try to argue Fisto > Vader but I don't think I'd be able to do that good of a job lol

Kit Fisto blitzes Vader

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:TPM kenobi >> council members, hell yeah

You can easily make a case for this based on the overwhelming evidence present. This isn't ridiculous at all. TPM Kenobi is meant to be one of the very best in the Jedi Order, even as a padawan.

Not sure on KoB's post.

I actually might agree with LOTL though. He was stated to be one of the best Jedi alive at the time.

What doesn't make sense about Kit Fisto > Darth Vader?

LOTL wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:TPM kenobi >> council members, hell yeah

You can easily make a case for this based on the overwhelming evidence present. This isn't ridiculous at all. TPM Kenobi is meant to be one of the very best in the Jedi Order, even as a padawan.

shit, im a great listener, so count me in. post the bitch whenever ur ready.

Meatpants wrote:What doesn't make sense about Kit Fisto > Darth Vader?

too much green tbh. im a huge hulk fan, but thats where it stops. well, im also a green ranger fan, a green lantern fan, and i love cosmo too, but thats for another time.

@Meatpants

Nice bro.

Maul > Start of TPM Kenobi > Vader

Lucas wins again

Not quite, Steakpants. There is no contradiction between Resurrection and this chain/Lucas, because on a technical level it holds true for Vader vs Maul, too, in spite of the fight's end. Vader in Resurrection is depicted as slower, less skilled, and less powerful than Maul - the latter lands a greater number of hits, some of them Lightsaber strikes which would down a normal opponent, and Vader is only credited to be holding his own (i.e. not winning or even matching Maul) for the majority of the duel. However, this does not preclude Vader from being able to beat Maul through his determination/willpower to keep fighting - powered by self-hatred - and his extensive durability, in spite of his general combative inferiority, both of which are emphasised in the comic as the reason Vader wins.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Meatpants wrote:What doesn't make sense about Kit Fisto > Darth Vader?

too much green tbh. im a huge hulk fan, but thats where it stops. well, im also a green ranger fan, a green lantern fan, and i love cosmo too, but thats for another time.

Lobenzo

What is the case for ROTJ Vader beating Dooku here?

Rei wrote:What is the case for ROTJ Vader beating Dooku here?

prolly through stabbing. maybe decapitating. possibly choking.

Meatpants wrote:What doesn't make sense about Kit Fisto > Darth Vader?

Going by statements by Lucas: Kit Fisto > Vader, opposite by feats I guess.

@NotAA3

I mean, are we really going over this stupid comic again? Lucas doesn't gel with it anyhow, because he talks about correlating improved choreography with better swordfighting, then makes a huge jump in choreography between ROTJ and TPM. Also, augmentation is directly correlated with power, if Maul or Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon are way faster than Vader, we're not talking about minor stylistic differences (as the Vader brigade thinks is  the case), but massive differences in power. The clear message from G is that these three fighters are beyond anything we've seen in ROTJ by a fair margin.

@TheNuisanceBird

Wdym feats? What feat does Vader have that matches Kit Fisto putting up a bit of a fight against TCD Ventress, who scales laughably above TPM Maul, who is >>> Vader per Lucas?

I notice MP didn't actually address AA3's argument at any point during that post.



OT - Dooku stomps, obviously.

@Meatpants Evidence that Ventress scales "laughably" above Maul?  

The assumption that there is a correlation with faster choreography and actualised force power doesn't work in the slightest. If we applied this wonky logic, then that would mean TPM Darth Maul>Sidious in power, as Maul was clearly shown to be more faster and acrobatic in his duel in TPM than Sidious in the two duels he had in ROTS. Obviously this doesn't make sense and is in direct contradiction to the lore.

Vader literally has a quote that puts him above Ventress

   In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

   -- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63

@Mysteryman06:

The assumption that there is a correlation with faster choreography and actualised force power doesn't work in the slightest. If we applied this wonky logic, then that would mean TPM Darth Maul>Sidious in power, as Maul was clearly shown to be more faster and acrobatic in his duel in TPM than Sidious in the two duels he had in ROTS. Obviously this doesn't make sense and is in direct contradiction to the lore.

This is a total false equivalency, because TPM Kenobi>Vader isn't the case due to improved choreography, but is true as a result of Lucas saying he was using the better choreography in question as a device to convey Kenobi's superiority. It's not a correlation between upgraded choreography and augmentation that is significant here, but that the correlation exists specifically because of Lucas's intent, per his own words. Now, if you want to argue that Maul>Sidious is also a Lucas held view go right ahead (good luck if you do lol), but otherwise I'm expecting an instant concession on this point.

Vader literally has a quote that puts him above Ventress

Contradicted by WOG and C-Canon sources outnumbering it. Dismissed.

@Sjuttiosju

Not sure if I agree. If Lucas specifically gave an in universe reason as to why Maul's fighting style is a lot faster than anything we've seen Vader do in the OT, then logically that should be applied to other character's who fought slower than Maul as well. It's unfair to pin this on just Vader or the other OT characters. As Lucas clearly did not reinforce this whole idea in the following two films, I think that statement can easily be dismissed as outdated. My opinion personally.

What evidence do you have that contradicts that quote? As far as I know this is the only quote in the EU that compares Ventress to the likes of Vader.

Sjuttiosju wrote:@Mysteryman06:

The assumption that there is a correlation with faster choreography and actualised force power doesn't work in the slightest. If we applied this wonky logic, then that would mean TPM Darth Maul>Sidious in power, as Maul was clearly shown to be more faster and acrobatic in his duel in TPM than Sidious in the two duels he had in ROTS. Obviously this doesn't make sense and is in direct contradiction to the lore.

This is a total false equivalency, because TPM Kenobi>Vader isn't the case due to improved choreography, but is true as a result of Lucas saying he was using the better choreography in question as a device to convey Kenobi's superiority. It's not a correlation between upgraded choreography and augmentation that is significant here, but that the correlation exists specifically because of Lucas's intent, per his own words. Now, if you want to argue that Maul>Sidious is also a Lucas held view go right ahead (good luck if you do lol), but otherwise I'm expecting an instant concession on this point.

Vader literally has a quote that puts him above Ventress

Contradicted by WOG and C-Canon sources outnumbering it. Dismissed.

i would rather not get raped in one of these again, but one thing id like to say - if we use lucas as word of god for everything, and have in fact to take him literally, then we cannot assume anything, since the counter argument could just be "thats not EXACTLY what he said". better choreography is prolly an argument for agility, and maybe skill, and likely nothing further than that, since it would fall into 100% assumption that can be manipulated by the person using it at any time. not to mention, the obvious fact that if choreography = skill/power/agility, than wouldnt all fights that have similar choreography imply similar levels of skill, agility, and power? thats simply wrong. yoda vs dooku was far more varied and crazy than yoda vs sidious, for example, but nobody would use that as an argument to say that dooku > sidious.

@Mysteryman06:

If Lucas specifically gave an in universe reason as to why Maul's fighting style is a lot faster than anything we've seen Vader do in the OT, then logically that should be applied to other character's who fought slower than Maul as well.

You're not getting it. The speed of the choreography is not an in universe justification, it's a device meant to convey Lucas's belief of superiority. The actual reasoning behind Lucas's statement is made clear within the quote itself. Vader is a "crippled half-droid", and TPM Kenobi is a "real Jedi". Whether Lucas successfully accomplished what he set out to do with the choreography is irrelevant to his actual intent and justification, both of which are G-Canon by defualt. Suggesting that simply because he failed at conveying the speed disparities between PT characters through choreography we can arbitrarily dismiss his admission that TPM Kenobi>Vader is silly, and I think we both know that.

As Lucas clearly did not reinforce this whole idea in the following two films, I think that statement can easily be dismissed as outdated.

That might have something to do with the logistical issues of having Ian playing Palpatine rather than Lucas changing his mind... which is frankly baseless.

What evidence do you have that contradicts that quote? As far as I know this is the only quote in the EU that compares Ventress to the likes of Vader.

There are quotes pinning AOTC Anakin above ROTJ Luke (Vader's equal per multiple sources), and Jinn above Vader, both of whom are inferior to Ventress.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i would rather not get raped in one of these again

LOL Pretty much agree with everything you said.

On Vader VS Fisto in Legends; Vader has better Force feats specifically TK.

As for dueling if we wanna go by on screen speed than yeah, ROTJ Luke is ROTS Sidious level if not above which obviously isn't true.