Jerec and Sedriss vs Maul and Savage Opress

Seturna wrote:

George Lucas wrote: The core of all this thing is [that] the Emperor is the master and Vader is the apprentice,” Lucas would explain. “He knows that if he gets into a lazer fight with the Emperor, he won’t win. He knows his son can’t win. Neither one of them can beat the Emperor. Together they might. In the first sequel he reveals that when he says, ‘Together we can rule the universe.’ That’s still his plot in Jedi. It’s just that his son has said, ‘No, I’m not going to do that.’ So that’s a bit of a problem. “Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it.

@Vaelias

Great!
Thanks dude

maul and savage win

DarthAnt66 wrote:Also, Lucas has stated Maul > Vader directly anyway.

Fast forward 6 years:

Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter.


Lucas retcons it to apply to ANH Vader and ANH Ben, not ESB/ROTJ Vader. Not to mention the EU material regarding ANH Vader's mental state. That quote is also referring to a Jedi and a Sith fighting at their peaks, so all it does is substantiate that peak Maul > an emotionally hindered ANH Vader or ANH Ben.

@Seturna That quote is referring to him one-shotting Luke, who even if you argue is equal to ROTJ Vader in power (which I personally disagree with), he's far less masterful and skilled with the Force. It can't entirely be put down to some immense power edge, given that this Luke lacks the basic knowledge to even defend against a Force Choke at this point. The same quote specifies that together, they might be able to beat him, so clearly Luke's lack of mastery is compensated for by Vader's mastery and power in Lucas' mind, given his later stance that Luke < Vader and his position as the father is meant to facilitate that clear gap in power, or his consistent attempts to portray Vader as conflicted and struggling with the Light Side to the point that even Luke can sense it as an indication of his eventual redemption:

Savage soloes

Even if you argue Vader is more skillful in the force and has higher level of mastery; I’d still don’t personally see that closing up the already one-shot gap existing between Sidious and Luke.

@Breakofdawn

@Seturna Poor phrasing on my part. I don't believe that ROTJ Vader (who I have around or very slightly above Dooku in power and below him in saber skill) and ROTJ Luke could ever hope to take ROTJ Sidious. My point was that being able to one-shot a character who lacks a decent understanding of defensive applications of the Force doesn't mean that he could do the same to a far more masterful, skilled and arguably significantly stronger Vader, at least with the same tactics (e.g. something like TK as specified in that quote rather than FL). Of course, I'm in the middle of changing up my views on the power gaps between characters, so that could change.

Zenwolf wrote:You know, it's never brought up a lot but what about  either of Team 1 affecting the minds of Team 2? Telepathy is never really brought up a whole lot in battles, but it is noted that both Jerec and Sedriss can affect the minds of their opponents. I mean I suppose Maul could resist, though not sure from both at the same time, Savage I'm pretty sure isn't gonna have any idea on how to deal with it because I'm pretty sure his training never went over such things.

Sooo any thoughts to this being viable?

@Breakofdawn

Fair enough.

@BreakofDawn: There's no retcon there? Lucas is saying the swordplay and characters improved from ANH to ESB/ROTJ. That's obviously true. That doesn't preclude the ESB/ROTJ swordplay and characters still being a pale imitation of the TPM swordplay and characters, and Lucas has vouched for TPM being a one-up of ROTJ even in the mid 2010s. There's a constant upward improvement of the swordplay and characters each film, culminating with ROTS.

@DarthAnt66 In the quote you've provided, George is drawing a comparison between the first of the Prequel Trilogy films and the first of the Original Trilogy films. To that end, he cites the idea of Vader being a cripple and Ben being an old man as the primary reason for why they weren't at the "height of their powers". A few years later, he then goes on to clarify that this is not intended to apply to ESB, where the Jedi are "quite agile", trained by "the best swordsman in England" and aren't limited by the technology. All the source does is indicate that peak Maul > ANH Vader in the context of choreography, which is inevitable. That's it.

If anything, should the quote be taken to refer to the entire trilogy (which, given that it specifies the first, it does not) it runs contrary to your argument in that it indicates that Vader, a Sith, is not operating at "the height of [their] powers" in the films. In 4 because of his caution, in 5 because he's just testing Luke, and in 6 because of the Light Side growing within him.

@BreakofDawn: He says this is the "first time" we've ever seen Jedi and Sith fighting at the "height of their powers." It includes ROTJ. Note "height of their powers" doesn't refer to internal personal power (i.e. It's not saying we see Maul at the apex of his powers but we've never seen Vader at the apex of his powers) as he's attributing the reason for the overall superior speed and choreography of TPM to the fact they're in the "height of their powers." Your argument doesn't make sense to me unless you want to say Lucas doesn't think TPM choreography is better than ROTJ choreography (note Lucas has said otherwise as late as 2019)?

@DarthAnt66

He says this is the "first time" we've ever seen Jedi and Sith fighting at the "height of their powers." It includes ROTJ.

If he intended to include ESB or ROTJ, he would have specified that, or mentioned Luke. He did not, because he was doing a side-by-side comparison of the first times we've seen a Jedi and a Sith fight. Just as 4 was the first time we saw a Jedi and a Sith fight, Qui-Gon vs Maul on Tatooine was the first time we've seen a Jedi and a Sith clash in the Prequels.

Note "height of their powers" doesn't refer to internal personal power (i.e. It's not saying we see Maul at the apex of his powers but we've never seen Vader at the apex of his powers) as he's attributing the reason for the overall superior speed and choreography of TPM to the fact they're in the "height of their powers."

I'm not entirely sure I understand what distinction or point you're trying to make, here. This does little to address my critique that the quote is clearly in reference to the first time we've seen a Jedi and Sith clash in the OT vs the first time we've seen a Jedi and Sith clash in the PT.

Your argument doesn't make sense to me unless you want to say Lucas doesn't think TPM choreography is better than ROTJ choreography?

I'm saying that Lucas is comparing the TPM fight to what we saw in ANH. Lucas has been extremely vocal over the years about his disappointment with ANH and his frustration over the technological limitations for things like fights and effects. So now that he has the tech and has the first battle between a fully fledged Jedi not tempted by the Dark Side vs a Sith of the PT, he's naturally going to compare it to ANH, where we saw a fully fledged Jedi vs a Sith. Lucas himself admits that the "old man" and "cripple" point was simply a excuse for ANH, an excuse that wasn't needed by ESB and thus the quote does not define nor bind ESB nor ROTJ.

By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Also, Lucas has stated Maul > Vader directly anyway.

Couldn’t that just be implying that Maul is that the height of his powers and we’ve never seen Vader at his it doesn’t necessarily mean that mauls hight of power is higher than Vader’s